The Most EPIC Version of the Sith We Were All Unfairly Deprived Of

[@chrisdoesnotcare]

“You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, The machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle, Were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its Empire, the True Sith Empire, rules elsewhere….And Revan knew the true war was not against the Republic. It waits for us beyond the Outer Rim.” -Traya

[@isaackim7675]

Palpatine, “Hee. Heee. Hee. Amateurs.”

[@Hello-bi1pm]

This sounds like taking Vader's quote "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy the planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." to its logical extreme. KOTOR understands the OT more than any other media.

[@XJ0461C]

​@@isaackim7675 Homie who ruled for less than 30 years, had to rely on other people's toys, and literally died humiliatingly multiple times is the actual amateur. Palpy is an overrated chump. The real Sith mock him.

[@bloodysimile4893]

"Time is a lie, there is only patience Through Patience, I gain perspective Through Perspective, I gain knowledge Through Knowledge, I gain control Through Control, their chains are forged. The force will enslaved them." -The silent council code, perhaps even the True Sith

[@bloodysimile4893]

​@@XJ0461C Every new Sith Generation they are better before and after. In the end, they all end up in the same place: dead and in time, forgotten. Look upon their great work, and you will find is barren wasteland

[@Agonis100]

*Something interesting:* If I recall correctly, it was revealed that the original origin story for the Yuuzhan Vong was as an exiled Sith offshoot before they decided to go with a true extragalactic backstory.

[@Hello-bi1pm]

Yeah, Revan sounds similar to Thrawn in this.

[@Agonis100]

@@Hello-bi1pm It would have fit *perfectly* too. The Vong are essentially the pinnacle of what the first Dark Jedi in the Hundred Year Darkness hoped to achieve with the manipulation/domination of all life. This would have easily segued into an explanation for why the Vong's connection to the force was severed, and the reason for their exile.

[@mitchellhayward6492]

Eh, everything bad that happens always seems to tie back to the Sith. It's quite stale by this point. At least what they did with the Vong was different, and interesting. They actually had their own motivation, and their own brand of fanaticism separate from the same old "light side, dark side" stuff.

[@shadowbeast2276]

I didn't know that. Interesting

[@alwaysplotting2096]

Bioware: We're doing the same villains only with bigger guns. True Sith Writers: Imagine if the movies did that.

[@ynpavo]

Disney: hold my blaster

[@alsimmonshellspawn6021]

​@@ynpavo Disney can't even do one sith lord right

[@user-sm9zs7sc8u]

Which, eventually, of course, they did.

[@matthewdavis9966]

I feel like a lot of the cool factor around the KOTOR 3 True Sith stems from their mystique of never having seen them depicted. I have a suspicion that no version would live up to the hype.

[@kungalexander829]

We will probably see cooler sith lords with ridiculous force powers Something more like nihilus and sion and less like malgus and vitate who are just generic star wars villain 101

[@frog.capone3070]

@@kungalexander829 I do think Vitiates power should be put into the same bracket as Nihilus & sion in terms of its sinister uniqueness & malevolence. Other than that I do agree with you.

[@ackbarfan5556]

Yeah, that's probably the sad truth; all this amazing hype and it wouldn't have satisfied.

[@vitorpereira9515]

"The third game involved you, as a player character, following where Revan went and then taking the battle to the really ancient Sith lords who are far more terrifying than the Darths that show up. These guys would just be monsters...you'd see how horrible that was. Part of that environment would tell a story about that. [That] would be a great, epic way to end the trilogy. The Old Republic are out there. We just didn't get a chance to do it." - Avellone Edit: I get excited just imagining how powerful those sith would be. But at least we have Vitiate and the Dread Masters.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

Yeah and unfortunately they could have been the greater treat in episode 9... But we got Palpatine's fan club instead.

[@markusbarten455]

Vitiate did what Palpatine did, but better.

[@ProfibobWot]

ZZZ!!!!

[@alsimmonshellspawn6021]

Exar kun was still far more powerful than those ancient sith since he was the culmination of marka ragnos lineage

[@frostburn3736]

In my opinion the original vision of The True Sith is more compelling. The conviction, belief and idea, if used and spread correctly, can go a long way. You don't need armies, war machines or cults of space wizards to achieve victory over all creation. All you have to do is to subtly make them believe what you believe. *_You do that, you won._*

[@Aurelian_-vu3yz]

I think the Rule of Two perfected this ideology and that’s why it’s the strongest version of the Sith in my option. They don’t have the lovecraftian ancient horror element of the True Sith, but the war of belief waged from the shadows is where the rule of two excelled. It also produced Darth Sidious, essentially the personification of the Sith and their teachings.

[@kanekikingstorm2113]

I actually don’t mind what we got in the reconstituted sith empire. It was nice to see a different flavor of sith, such as the pragmatic Lana Beniko, the Patriotic Darth Marr, and the chain breaking Darth Malgus. It also helped making a dnd campaign of this era a blast to do.

[@krystalneko4094]

It would be nice if we could get more sith like them in modern era SW, especially Lana and Malgus. It gets pretty old having literally every sith that isn't them be a sadistic and sociopathic edgelord trying to one-up all the other edgelords in a perpetual self-destructive cycle of idiocy. Like it's been 50 years (25000~ in universe) and these 3 + kreia and revan are the only ones with any sort of real ideology or vision.

[@kiyanhakim384]

@@krystalneko4094 well that's the literal beauty of swtor. There's a bunch of random edgelords you defeat along the way, bu also a lot of rather interesting sith lords that are unique with their ambitions and personalities. Baras, wants to supplant himself as the shadow emperor through clever deceit using a spy network Vowrawn, patient and soft spoken, adaptable and has his ambitions under control Jadus, wants to fucking democratize fear Marr, seeks to reforge the empire into something better through establishing order and effectiveness Malgus, seeks to create his own empire, inclusive and rather non hierarchical, for conquest's sake. new motivation also seems interesting Acina, wants to get rid of the powerplays through a more centralized and united sith elite Vitiate, keeps coming back with changed motivations. Dread Masters, want drown the galaxy in fear as they are going insane That's already quite a remarkable pool of different ideals.

[@ryandunham1047]

A dnd campaign in that era?! Where can I find that?! 😎

[@DM5550Z]

Its trash compared to what we could have gotten. Its just mediocre storytelling that crapped on the kotor story, and rides off the back of disney+ trends now.

[@ackbarfan5556]

@@krystalneko4094 Well, you know, that's TV and Movies. You can't be too subtle for general public that are only there to enjoy themselves for an hour or two rather than investing days, even weeks into a game.

[@aster4jaden]

I would've liked a merging of both, like a Sith Empire ruled solely by Sith Purebloods of various Castes/Sub-Species.

[@exaggeratedswaggerofablackteen]

Sith pure bloods were done dirty by Star Wars lore : they got genocided by the Republic after the Great Hyperspace War and slowly went extinct. It would have been nice to see them lead a new Empire even stronger than Ragnos and Sadow's.

[@fernandobarreto2819]

@@exaggeratedswaggerofablackteen there were the soccers of tund were the puroblood sith exist

[@bioshocker3206]

@@fernandobarreto2819 They also got genocided by a rogue member of their order.

[@alsimmonshellspawn6021]

​@@exaggeratedswaggerofablackteen missed race sith were more powerful

[@garrisonjones1827]

In an f'ed up way, if Traya had gotten her way, she might have destroyed the sith in its entirely.

[@arbington]

Traya would’ve been pleased. She wanted to free the Galaxy not only from the Jedi, or the Sith, but the Force itself.

[@alaskamark4562]

Would she though? Malachor, the supposed proof of the ability to "kill the Force" was really pretty much just considered a beacon for the True Sith. I don't see any reason to believe her plan to "kill the Force" would've ever worked, or that it would've had any effect on the True Sith.

[@cioplasmmajic8327]

The Sith don't need to listen to the Force, they make the force listen to them. You could argue it would actually make them unstopable.

[@XJ0461C]

@@cioplasmmajic8327 Not in the slightest. No different from the Jedi, the Sith had become dependent on the Force, even in seeking to dominate it. Without it, they would have died. A constant need to dominate is crippling weakness.

[@elwarofficial]

And the jedi.. win / win

[@markdobai043]

When the sith holocrons said "whsnaa whsnaaa ffsssa nyhaaaaa " I felt that

[@bobafett7865]

I believe that in the Revan novel it is stated that Vitiate's ultimate goal was to subjugate the force and destroy the universe only to remake it and destroy it again in a never ending cycle.

[@kristopherdorsey8561]

Both him &sidious are some of the most evilest characters ever.

[@thomasbardoux1692]

If you ask specific questions to both lord scourge and vitiate during the jedi knight campaign of swtor, it is revealed that vitiates, once the galaxy is sacrificed and he becomes some sort of god, want to exist in other galaxies as every possible thing "peasant, lord, explorer" until the end of the universe, when he'll take some rest waiting for a new universe to start over

[@kristopherdorsey8561]

@@thomasbardoux1692 so he just wants the Galaxy to burn and to make an endless cycle of destruction.

[@bobafett7865]

@@kristopherdorsey8561 no doubt

[@Hello-bi1pm]

So Vititate's plan is making Disney remakes?

[@brokenbridge6316]

Comparing the Sith in the old KOTOR games to the Shadows of Babylon 5 was genius.

[@AncestorEmpire1]

The Shadows also inspired the Reapers from Mass Effect

[@jjc5407]

Babylon 5 is criminally underrated and not just for its brilliance as a story. It was groundbreaking in so many ways. It was shot in 16:9 widescreen before that format became widely adopted. Its effects were CGI-based when other TV SF was still all model-based. It is the grand-daddy of US story-arc TV, shifting the landscape from 'episode of the week' to more complex long-running stories with character development (and still remains the greatest example of both). And then there's its direct influence on other writer's work too.

[@AncestorEmpire1]

@@jjc5407 JMS used to be a great writer back then. He also wrote several Thor comics as well. The first Thor film is basically from his comic book run. Babylon 5 should not be remade in the slightest, not even season 5.

[@jjc5407]

@@AncestorEmpire1 the idea of remaking Bablyon 5 is like Michelangelo knocking on the door of the Sistine Chapel after 30 years and saying "Hello. I've just come to repaint the ceiling."

[@AncestorEmpire1]

@@jjc5407 that’s if it would be a proper remake, but considering how further JMS went to the left wing. It would make seasons 1 and 2 of Picard look like masterpieces.

[@minicle426]

​@@AncestorEmpire1 JMS? The guy who also wrote for Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors. 🤔

[@anti-liberalismo]

Canderous talking to Visas with the theme of the Ravager playing in the background gives me shivers...

[@michakasprzak6869]

Old Siths: *Eat whole fucking planets* New "siths": can't even build a stable lightsaber

[@Theleaver5088]

Bold to even consider that pathetic excuse known as Kylo Ren a new "sith" een though you put " " on sith

[@ThrawnFett123]

Despite all its flaws, I rarely heard the Story as one of them for The Old Republic. I personally think I would have preferred KOTOR III though. But I was extremely heavily invested in KOTOR I and II as a child, so that may color it. My ideal I think would be to do KOTOR III and have Vitiate have been a schism to keep The Old Republic storyline intact. Something along the lines of HE was feeding the breadcrumbs TO Reven to find the True Sith, so that he could wipe out his rivals and use that to launch his campaign instead

[@theevildrummingsithlord1492]

I would've honestly loved KOTOR 3, but in that story, it would've been so powerful to see Revan give his life to stop the true Sith (or at least weaken them and delay their invasion heavily). It could've been a lot like the Revan novel, but in that, Surik doesn't get backstabbed.

[@or6397]

I mean to be fair, Vitiate was stupidly powerful and was in line with this sort of ominous foreshadowing. He could destroy entire planets, possess entire populations and break the will of even Jedi and Sith. It’s just, his Sith Empire was just a reiteration of the classic Empire from the OG trilogy plus more of the same Sith we saw before.

[@anti-liberalismo]

Brooooooo this moment when Atris say "A Beacon? For who?" gave me so many shivers i could literally tattoo this sentence

[@WaddelingProductions]

Although SWTOR isn’t a bad game, I really don’t like how they handled the legacy of KOTOR and its characters and ideas it presented

[@michaelandreipalon359]

Hence why it should be an Infinities set of storylines.

[@tapaniwinterlich4060]

It could be really interesting. I think that the Triumvirate and this concept of True Sith are similar to the Banite order in their actions. Perfectly from the shadows. I also really like Kreia's philosophy on the force since I've played KotoR II. Damn I think I'm gonna replay it😀

[@alaskamark4562]

I don't see how anybody could like Kreia's philosophy, she has an extremely pessimistic view on the Force and the galaxy and she wants to force everyone to either give up the Force or die a horrible, excruciating death; all because she wants everybody to live in a manner that SHE approves of. Kreia is a horrible person and her philosophy is really messed up.

[@tapaniwinterlich4060]

@@alaskamark4562 I know that's the reason I like her

[@stargatecommand714]

The Virgin Swtor vs the Chad Kotor III

[@AngryAtriedesPrime]

I didn't expect a Babylon 5 reference and it honestly made my day. "The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace. It failed."

[@michaelandreipalon359]

Honestly, B5 needs more love these days (apart from its fifth season, but that's my opinion).

[@bloodysimile4893]

​@Michael Andrei Palon the Centuri war was the redeeming part. It a pity the creator choke at the season 4, not knowing if he would get a fifth season and jam pack 4 and 5 into the fourth season. original 4 mostly deal with Shadow war and it end, the season-ending with John being captured. Season 5 would be Earth civil war ending in mid season switching to Centuri war.

[@michaelandreipalon359]

@@bloodysimile4893 Not JMS' fault Season 4 became that, and besides, at least he wrapped up the planned finale quite well, unlike Battlestar Galactica 2003 and Game of Thrones in the future.

[@jjc5407]

@@michaelandreipalon359 the first half of the 5th season wasn't the best, but the later episodes leading up to the sublime last episode are still really good.

[@michaelandreipalon359]

@@jjc5407 Noted, but the rough first half really hurts the show... I blame the stupid maid who accidentally threw away the original Season 5 script for this.

[@marcelgrabowski5939]

Then those ancient siths were so powerfull, that Jedi will be forced to face army of Vitiatie tier wariors... Whoa, it would be really epic.

[@thunderfreeze1544]

When will you continue the sith history playlist? Your best videos recently

[@flyer3154]

I've been reading The Old Republic Revan and Deceived novels and been really enjoying them

[@jjc5407]

Really? I found them very disappointing. Were you familiar with the period from the games and other media before reating the novels? The novels set in that time period are really sporadic and make tons of references to other stories and events, which is really frustrating if they're not ones you already know about.

[@flyer3154]

@@jjc5407 yes I'm fimiliar with the Old Republic lore

[@jjc5407]

@@flyer3154 ah that gives you a different perspective then. I'm a book reader and have read every novel but only a few of the graphic novels. In fact I've spent the last few years re-reading them all in chronological order starting with Dawn of the Jedi and am all the way through to the risible Legacy of the Force series now. That's included a ton of short stories and all the YA books too. The Old Republic was really underserved. There's no coherence to the novels; they're just random snapshots that hint at larger events and storylines. My biggest takeaways is that Sith were ridiculously overpowered and that technology barely evolved over thousands of years.

[@KnightsRealm98]

Decieved was a lot of fun, kind of a more detailed perspective on the Sacking of Coruscant. Revan, though....I have very, very strong opinions about that book, few of them positive. The only thing going for it in my mind is the solidification of Revan's canon alignment, gender, and relationship. Yeah, some KotOR fans hate the idea of a fixed canon for the characters, but that's very much a BioWare fan mentality. I'm a Star Wars fan before a BioWare fan, so I like fixed canon. But the rest of that book.......

[@flyer3154]

@@KnightsRealm98 I actually liked the Revan book more

[@MrDUneven]

That's super interesting because in my headcanon that was kinda what I expected Palpatine's grand plan to be. Corrupt the whole of the Force to the dark side so that he as a dark side user could drain power from it and become immortal Force god. Defeating him was last minute chance for the galaxy. This would have explained why jedi's power was waning in last days of Republic, jedi use the light side so if the Force is out of balance there is kinda less what they can do with it. Also we saw Vader force choke his officers remotely, so if some one was strong enough or the force corrupted, they could hear thoughts of anyone from anywhere and then strike them down.

[@Garmagic2yFhenrakh9]

Vitiate's Empire served its purpose if role-playing, and there was much to enjoy from it. The Zakuul empire, however, turned out pretty boring, and BioWare could have made them the true sith that Revan was trying to defeat. Think about it. Vitiate creates the reconstructed Sith Empire out of those he considered the weakest Sith of the old empire, while he takes the strongest ones to build the True Sith. Revan met those instead of the reconstructed Sith Empire, but when he returned, he was misplaced in the reconstituted one and through hypnosis and drugs he thought that that empire were the true sith. The Revanite crisis happens and then, when the Sith and Republic are fighting each other, the True Sith appear. This would change the entire plot of KOTET but it would make for a good story and would give us what we were promised.

[@lucabestea6844]

In my headcanon, during Vitiate's Empire's hiding, a Sith Lord saw through his machinations and built in secret with a few like-minded lords a hidden empire with Sion-like warriors, Desolous-like commanders, Nihilus-like demons, Malgus-like overlords and Traya-like visionaries. They found the true way of the Sith and how to achieve victory, but before they were ready to strike, Vitiate sensed their power, and went personally to eradicate them. It was one of the most shocking moments of his life, with these True Sith lords almost undoing the ancient Nathema ritual he did, but he then used all protective methodes and mind-banishing arts he knew to barely survive. Then, with his greatest threat defeated, before any of his Empire to even learn of it, he used Darth Nul's teachings and bound them to his will and so, the Children of the Emperor were born. Imo, it would be fitting, as the Sith always stop themselves to achieve victory.

[@teleportedbreadfor3days]

What some people seem to unintentionally overlook is that better doesn’t mean the other was bad. I actually do think the Old Republic’s truth Sith under Darth Vitiate is still good, but KOTOR III’s idea was simply better. However, what I like about the BioWare’s retcon wasn’t the change, but the fact that KOTOR III’s True Sith could still hypothetically be fit into the Star Wars timeline: One idea is that Vitiate feared the real True Sith and somehow sealed them somewhere deep in the Unknown Regions after deeming them a danger to his plans for godhood. They could very much make a reappearance

[@matthewjay660]

"What do you want?" -The Shadows

[@daganlove8536]

Babylon 5 is fucking God tier and if anyone disagrees they can eat it lol

[@michaelandreipalon359]

Sure has a weak and somewhat unnecessary Season 5 though. Not even Neil Gaiman's meisterwork episode there can lessen that pain.

[@jjc5407]

@@michaelandreipalon359 I wouldn't say unnecessary, but it is unbalanced due to the circumstances that led to a lot of content planned for it having to be moved forward into S4. The later episodes are very strong.

[@daleyatkinson6153]

When I was a teenager playing KoToR 2, I always thought that Babylon 5 was behind the "shadow" Sith. Good times spent watching Babylon 5, and good times playing KoToR 2. Great video! :D

[@neilhannan5112]

Fun fact the concept of the true sith insipired the enemies in mass effect reapers

[@blakeetter280]

the whispering of sith holocrauns sounds like german lol

[@bloodysimile4893]

"Time is a lie, there is only patience Through Patience, I gain perspective Through Perspective, I gain knowledge Through Knowledge, I gain control Through Control, their chains are forged. The force will enslaved them." -The silent council, perhaps the True Sith

[@nikodem7372]

I would like to see both empires. True Sith would be those who were defeated and exiled by Marka Ragnos at the beginning of his rule (Marka Ragnos would be isolationist while True Sith were expansionists) and Vitiate Empire would be born as in legends. In that case we would have four Sith factions (Naga Sadow Sith, Revan Sith, True Sith, Vitiate Sith) reemerging in span of 300 years (Sadow's Exar Kun, Darth Revan, True Sith being preceded by Triumvirate and the last Vitiate Empire).

[@twinodoom]

I believe Tenebrae is to blame for the True Sith being replaced by an Empire of machines. After he defeated Revan, he used the attempt on his life as justification for eliminating the other high ranking Sith to reshape the empire. In the aftermath, he was the only member of the True Sith remaining and their empire was transformed into one that was far more expendable to him so that they could never surpass him and he'd be able to hold onto power for ages without being replaced by another. He sacrificed the very thing that made the True Sith so dangerous and made it so that instead of facing an empire of beliefs, only the last of True Sith needed to be destroyed permanently for the True Sith to be defeated. And it was a defeat brought by his arrogance when he sabotaged the chances for future Sith carrying the same beliefs to succeed if he failed.

[@Fred_pimpstone-II]

Are we not gonna talk about the shadow with a cigarette at 7:09

[@shanenolan5625]

Who are you ? What do you want ? ( vorlons / Shadows babylon 5 )

[@michaelandreipalon359]

*cue the moment of guilty silence, because the questioner is oh so right*

[@PJOZeus]

Given the last few years I see it more and more likely that there was someone in the background trying to destroy these projects - after all, legacy is destroyed nowadays, we know of executes who intentionally dilute the media they have control over, so why not a little further back too? Darth Jar Jar and The True Sith? (Imagine if Jar Jar *was* one of the true sith), maybe it’s just a whisper influencing those in command, but i can’t believe there hasn’t been some force working against it

[@glowiak3430]

0:16 As a native Polish speaker I can say that this holocron sounds very familar "otóż nieważne jakie natłusnala (?) knażny dżedaj nie ma ..."

[@kiyanhakim384]

While the Sith envisioned for Kotor 3 would have been wonderful and terrifying to see and, would make absolute sense in a grand scheme of things, I have to say I am still happier with what we got with the reconstituted sith empire in swtor. kotor sith Sith are thematically an excellent fit for kotor and especially kotor 2, and i feel like the main difference is Obsidian vs Bioware. Obsidian is absolutely a bit thematically mysterious and mystical with a touch of horror, while bioware is more direct, rough and powerful and i would go as far as to say more political(?). I do believe Vitiate was the original idea made manifest in the best way possible however, and it makes more sense. Rather than having a super dark and extremely powerful sith empire with god like powers and goals as high as to alter the force itself, we got a normal, yet still peculiar and wonderfully dark empire with normal power levels, led by one single hugely powerful being who perfectly incarnates those grand visions. The main problems i'd have would be the massive power levels, the very one dimensional character of that kotor3 sith empire and in my opinion the greatest loss would be that unique individualistic approach of the sith. The whole point of the sith is this massive individualism. Every sith is a bit different, has their own aspirations, their own philosophy. Every major sith empire were basically cults of personality around one dark lord who basically gave shape to the Sith during that time. Betrayal and backstabbing and the self destructive nature of the sith is their most appealing part as antagonists in my opinion, to the point as in-universe it is literally seen as their greatest weakness by themselves and by their enemies. So in order to create this dark and fanatic sith empire hiding in the shadows, one must take away the individuality of the sith, make them more mystical, and this would definitely work as the personal empire of vitiate or someone like him. Absolutely. And that's the charm of it. You can always come up with the most dark and twisted ideas, give them to an individual sith lord, and make them a threat to the galaxy. But the main point is always that individual sith, not the sith as a whole, nor is the philosophy of that sith ever a representation of what all sith are nor do all sith have a higher purpose other than power. Because at its core, the sith order is fluid. It doesn't have a rigid ideology except for power and freedom for the wielder of power. anything one adds to that is their own philosophy, because the whole point of the sith ideology is shaping things how you want them to be, to bind it to YOUR will. So this dark cult under a nihilus-like figure would definitely work for something like, Kotor 3. A one time story that is also ended right there. But what swtor gave us is SO MUCH more. It gave us an entire civilization. A real look into how the sith in their purest form would possibly work as a society and the political implications of that. It's grand, grounded with that touch of mysticism with the old things like Vitiate and the dread masters which is awesome, but it delivers exactly on the central premise of the sith: they are all unique. And swtor gave us a jumping board for amazing stories, which is literally what you want in an mmorpg that continues to this day. It was the grand return of the sith. It was the same sith(kinda) who would leave their mark on the galaxy and eventually be the ones to destroy themselves all the time like bane hated. It makes perfect sense. and it's what I love about the sith empire in swtor. it makes perfect sense. from a societal and political point it's frankly genius and as a sociology and political science student I really mean this. There's a central empire with an all powerful sith lord who keeps it together and it kinda works cause everyone is basically kept in line by fear, when the emperor goes silent, you start getting a huge empire comprised of cutthroat individuals all vying for power. You get people like Baras, Vowrawn, Jadus with all very distinct personalities and personal goals. People like Marr and Malgus who have grown fond of this empire and want to use the absence of an indifferent emperor to reforge the empire into something better but only know it through one way: dictatorship because that is all they know and they are sith. So all these characters are so different yet always remain absolutely true to the Sith: Power and the freedom to twist everything around you into whatever you desire. It goes deeper, it shows us how under such high pressure and horrible circumstances, people will do whatever they can to keep their positions or rise or get rid of their rivals. Corruption in the empire is rampant, from the lowest to the highest ranks, you see a complete disregard for law and order because the sith have all freedom, all the power so the justice system is a mess, yet at the same time law and order is forced upon the non sith citizens. We fully explore this in the books, the comics and definitely the game itself, and in my opinion it is nothing short of genius. like seriously, the swtor games are so political in a star wars sense, it's like walking through a socio-political commentary when you play on the empire's side, which is something I have never seen before, ever. I personally hate the gameplay, I think the stories could have been handled better, and let's not even start with the often lackluster(but sometimes excellent) dialogue, but one thing this game did exponentially well, is its world-building, and especially that for the Sith. So to conclude, I am very happy with what we got. Vitiate and the dread masters definetely give us a peek into what this original sith empire would look like and it's wonderful, but the empire as a whole is the most logical outcome of the sith and their core principles on full, glorious display. It's especially interestring because if you play as one of the two sith classes, your main quest is literally killing other sith and only the side quests are messing with the republic. This is the most sith-like thing to do and it works wonderfully.

[@nc956]

I do love the idea for the true sith. Although I do also love the current idea for Kreia's motivation which was against force itself, not the true sith in particullar. Both precious stories to be told. Kotor II is my favorite SW story ever told.

[@DalekOfChaos666]

I am still bitter we never got this masterpiece and instead we got the shit that was TOR.

[@nickvinsable3798]

🤔 . . . Personally, I’d prefer a careful mixture of the two. Sure, we’ve had the True Sith Empire invading the Republic, but I honestly believe that the real reason stems from the origins of the Sith & how it lead up to the culture seen during the Hyperspace War. Thus having a society that vows vengeance, no matter how many generations they must go through, is probably the most pragmatic way of doing this. Sure, we could’ve had, behind the scenes of battle, certain Sith artifacts/tools that sucked souls as a sort of food for their emperor during various battles, & those objects were sent back post-haste & their emperor absorbed those captured souls to ensure his immortality. And this is kind of the reason _Old Republic, The_ is set in the Cold War, of sorts; the Sith Emperor is content on scaling down the conflict & only engaging in proxy wars, so long as his objects for immortality are in proximity, & continuously collect souls from those who’re slain (i.e. no slow deaths, just fast & sudden ones), even on Coruscant in Justicar territory…

[@alexb9969]

It is my understanding that the KOTOR 3 Sith were not going to be offshoots of the Naga Sadow Sith Empire, but exactly the other way around. The Sith on Korriban, who we see as the main antagonists in Star Wars, were originally going to be colonists from dark homeworlds in the Unknown Region. Picture this. As Ajunta Pall and the Jedi Outcasts set foot on Korriban, a large mother ship is blocking out the sun. It is there to take them to their true master...

[@lordMartiya]

Theory time: Revan somehow warped the True Sith in the form we see in The Old Republic, hitting them so hard they had to unite to survive and forgot most of their ideology in the process, forcing Vitiate to come up with his Eternal Empire to try and bring the plan back to what it was supposed to be.

[@georgepapatheofilou6118]

I don't give a sith . Light and dark , Ying and yang . Song remains the same. Balance , temperance is the key to it all . Enjoy what's left of your weekend folks .

[@bradleywest4870]

Thanks for the B5 shoutout. That show deserves more love than it gets

[@gideonhorwitz9434]

Exar Kun Revan and Malak all fallen Jedi at best pretenders to the name but not true sith . The true sith where biological m descendants of the red skin conquers native to korriban the inheritors to the legacy of Ajutna Pal Tulak horde and Marka Ragnos. Whose civilization though brutal deviled such strength in the dark side that makes the rule of two sith feel like children

[@kristopherdorsey8561]

Don't forget about king Ada's

[@merafirewing6591]

With do I hear Darth Bane malding so hard?

[@anthonym4291]

Kind of reminds me of the one sith during the new jedi order and second galactic civil war time period.

[@zexalbrony4799]

Palpatine and most if not all of his predecessors: We will rule the galaxy with a great Empire of darkness! True Sith: HA, possers. Sith don't rule, we destroy and covert everything to chaos, so even if we die we still win, unlike you all who lose.

[@darkstarknight4616]

Wait wait wait, let me see if I understand this correctly. The sith, the TRUE SITH wanted to spread chaos across the galaxy as a way of evolution in never ending conflict AND using the Force to completely warp it entirely in death and despair to destroy the Balance and Light in the extreme levels of power. Yet the Sith that we got in the prequels and sequels aren't even CLOSE to that level of power??

[@michaelandreipalon359]

Bless and curse entropy for that.

[@jjc5407]

Yeah and that's the major problem with the EU in general. Too many writers going way beyond what George Lucas established. They should have started from the basic principle that Lucas's characters are the pinnacle and worked backwards from there.

[@michaelandreipalon359]

@@jjc5407 To be fair, some of his ideas can be... obsolete, at best. *looks at Flash Gordon nostalgia now misplaced in a more grounded real life era*

[@darkstarknight4616]

@@jjc5407 Plus let's not forget about Disney kinda ruining Star Wars from the last three movies. The problem with Disney doing Star Wars is "THEIR" version of adding something from Legends to Canon is lacking. Something from Legends re-created to a water down version of that person, object or lore is disrespecting Star Wars itself.

[@jjc5407]

@@darkstarknight4616 for some bizarre reason Disney chose to use the very worst ideas from the EU for their movies rather than the better ones. As for a 'more grounded real life era', that's about as far from Star Wars as you can get. Star Wars is an epic adventure set in a galaxy far, far away. 'Real life' and 'grounded' are two terms that should have no part in it.

[@elwarofficial]

Thank you for making this

[@scorpiovenator_4736]

having this new empire in the sequal trilogy would have been so cool compared with the stinky final order

[@IBW_3000]

Ah, KOTOR. Home of the best characters in the franchise (save for Thrawn). HK, Treya, Nihilus, Revan, Scion, to name a few. This is the peak of the pre-Bane era.

[@minicle426]

Thrawn and Revan are tediously overated...

[@nathaniellong4281]

I have seen some Babylon 5 and read and heard some of the lore. The Shadows evolved in the ancient universe, which was far more chaotic than our current universe. Protoplanets smashing into each other on a daily, if not hourly, basis, gases chaotically forming stars and star systems all the time, rogue asteroids always zipping around in every direction, smashing into everything, not yet being anchored by still yet to form stars or planets. The Shadows likely believed that constant conflict led to constant evolution, because they likely evolved and had to constantly fight for survival in the constantly chaotic, still being born universe. So if they became strong that way, why won't it work for all the other races? Such a philosophy applied to the True Sith sounds cool.

[@greatazuredragon]

Nice video, good work.

[@starkillerab1582]

Honestly I prefer the BioWare True Sith because of one thing and I think you guys can guess what it is from this one quote I’m about to say: “I’m gonna kill you and eat you all raw! And then pick my teeth with your bones.”

[@Groundrunner100]

@Geetsly’s You may have your grievances with BioWare Austin’s Sith Empire, but you know what: it’s better than the First Order ANY day of the year.

[@thorshammer7883]

I would have really rather want to have this concept of Ancient Sith over Vitiate's Sith Empire. I probably would have even like a idea of these Ancient Sith actually united in a foundation of revering a real Dark Side God that would become active in cycles to cause a era of chaos and destruction ultimately serving the Will of the Force in bring so called Balance through the blood and death of entire nations.

[@AndreNitroX]

This is the scary stuff that makes Star Wars more adult, if this was in the movies than people would take Star Wars more seriously

[@alsimmonshellspawn6021]

No Disney will make it lighthearted family friendly watered down censored pg and comedy

[@AndreNitroX]

@@alsimmonshellspawn6021 You are right, If lucas had never sold maybe we could have seen this stuff

[@lerneanlion]

Maybe eventually, this idea might get intergrated into the Old Republic game one day. However, it has to function as a sort of cult that threaten both the Sith Empire and the Galactic Republic alike in order for it to work. And unlike the ceasefire that happened because of the Revanites Crisis, this cult of Sith that is all about war of belief attempted to take control of the Empire from within by replacing the members of the Dark Council and even the Emperor with their own members quitely in order to also keeping the current war with the Republic going. By the time the plot is discovered, this cult will have significant portion of the Empire and territory of their own under their control. So those who are loyal to the Empire and not this cult decided to sign another peace treaty with the Republic so that they can focused solely on dealing with this cult, thus sparking the Second Sith Civil War. And to make the matter worse, the Republic and the Jedi are divided as well because there will be those who wanted to finish the Empire off for good and those who wanted to respect the new treaty with the Empire. And if the Jedi Civil War started with the Senate fell into factionalism with one side with the Jedi who wanted to renew a war with the Empire and the other who sided with the Jedi who wanted peace, then I dared to say that this Sith cult has achieved its endgame because both the Empire and the Republic have plunged the entire known galaxy in chaos with their internal quarrels.

[@DarkRider117]

Honestly I feel we were robbed because with the true Sith being an empire of belief I feel would have shown us a different angle of the dark side one of zealots and truly disturbing powers and maybe even what the true power of the dark side is really like

[@fabiansw8]

Got shown 4 unskippable ads back to back in the middle of this video

[@ianvdb8717]

Such a shame Disney didn’t use the real history and future of the Star Wars movies as we see in legends. I hate Disney more everyday. Great video also thanks for giving us such a good content. Keep up the good work tho u do great!

[@wintermute1]

It'd be amazing if True Sith were manipulating Palpantine, the Jedi and Bane was never aware that he was their tool as well.

[@TherealKRG-d7p]

So the True Sith vs Legends Luke Skywalkers Jedi order

[@jjc5407]

No it wouldn't, it really wouldn't. Palpatine (pre-Disney) should always be seen as the ultimate Sith, the master manipulator, not a pawn in someone else's game. It would totally undermine his character and indeed all the events of George Lucas's movies.

[@wazkangz955]

Old Republic is the best Republic.

[@theodoremccarthy4438]

One of the things which always struck me was how the Sith regularly failed at following their own beliefs by mistaking means for ends. The final lines of the Sith code were: Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me Empires and force powers were only ever a means to an end. The true goal of the Sith was freedom, yet most seemed to forget this. Ultimately this is why the Sith become villains. They become consumed by chasing means instead of ends. I’d love to see a depiction of a Sith who is true to that goal: maintaining his freedom by mastering the surging passions of the Dark Side instead of succumbing to obsession and addiction to power.

[@needtoknow6423]

Very interesting concept, but there's one huge problem: The Jedi struggled against one Darth Vitiate. They could've never defeated an army of Darth Vitiate's. Especially if you consider that Kotor has to fit into the Skywalker Saga. The only way for the Jedi to defeat the True Sith would've been to become perfect. Meetra Surik would be able to make that possible, but since Kotor is set nearly 4000 years BBY, it would create a massive plothole. If the Jedi had become perfect, there would be no way for the order to become complacent and dogmatic.

[@akumaking1]

So which Star Wars fan group/content creator can write a good script about this original concept?

[@jamesmooers8430]

I absolutely adore Star Wars: the Old Republic on its own. I grew up with it and played through every single storyline. The main quests are absolutely fantastic.... But it's no KOTOR 3. I really want to see the True Sith in all their glory and horror, and watch Revan launch his crusade into the darkness to save the galaxy. In fact i'd love it if they leaned even harder into the fantasy aspects of star wars... Lemme fight a Sith dragon that brings death to entire star systems. It would be incredible

[@hunterkiller1440]

Only true Prequel fans would know about this.

[@MRDLT00]

0:30 Stop. 👏Mixing. 👏Legends. 👏AND. 👏Disney. 👏TOGETHER! They do not fit together, stooooppp putting Filoni and Disney's bankrupt tat in with good Legends stories and writing! 🤣🤣🤣

[@mrbyorself]

I remember in the theatre people were skeptical when Palpatine threw his hands up and shot entire fleets out of the sky with force lightning. To me it seemed to fit perfectly. If the dark side grew more powerful through corruption, ambition, and suffering, then his Empire was the perfect machination for amplifying his strength. Even after the Empire was gone, with all of the contingency plans in place the cycle of corruption, ambition, suffering continued.

[@dawall3732]

Definitely the original.

[@nuclearsimian3281]

I'm not really sure what I would have preferred for the sequels, but it sure as shit wasn't my childhood hero giving up on all of his words and promises and nearly killing a person in their sleep, then running away in shame. This absolutely would have been better, but nah, we got Jar Jar.

[@jjc5407]

Just refuse to accept anything Disney have created with the words "Star Wars" in it even exists.

[@Holzkop]

Yesterday I finished my playthrough of Kotor II and Kraya didn't tell me of the plans of the original Sith you talked abaut. In the showdown she only told me her plans, based on her understanding and experience, that she want's to wipe out the force. She hates it and used the other Sith and me to hurt it. So my question is: in which scene can I ask her abaut the original Sith?😅

[@nucleartheorist2780]

The sith holocron sounded german

[@magnusaarsland9421]

this story whod have made Revin/Dart Revan more of a knith and a pilar of strenht

[@quinnmartensbobbitt3704]

Despite the Sith on the whole failing to truly represent their idealse in the Old Republic game and media, we do still receive the True Sith via Darth Vitiate - the Emperor. As the mentor and lord to Revan and Malak, Vitiate was the being they feared the most. In Revan's story, he felt Viitiate's power in the Unknown Regions, and sought it out in order to eliminate it. Vitiate subjugated Revan and Malak, broke them into becoming Sith, which is why Revan sought to turn the Republic into his grand weapon- a forge to repel the True Sith. Eventually, the Emperor came anyway, and imprisoned Revan and from what we can guess from the lore, his lover/friend whom we play as in Kotor II. While his subordinates ultimately fell from their power and squabbled for control, there were a few he instructed who became truly horrible Sith- the Dread Lords and the Children of the Empire being just a few. Their power was such that they consumed planets, corrupted entire systems. Its only a shame we don't see more ancient threats like them.

[@edcliffe2988]

Cool stuff. Big fan of SW and B5, so the comparison is awesome.

[@siphonicstorm7191]

I did like the Sith Empire from Star Wars The Old Republic. But I do wish these Sith are the ones we got. The only I can see to be like them was Tenebrae. He was someone who killed and waged war just to consume life to be Immortal. All he cared about was power. I do hope one day that we get a story for these Sith in the future. Even though that seems unlikely. I do want a lot of the Old Republic stuff brought back into Canon, because I love the Old Republic Era. I did have a few conversations with some fans about the Legends stuff. Remembering someone said the reason it's called legends might be because it's been so long since, people have forgotten most of it entirely. Like in real life, people forget how certain stories went overtime and they become legends. Or at least that's what I think.

[@jamiewalsh3349]

Sith gods would've been way cooler rather than a Galactic Empire rip-off

[@thmadman_8488]

I would of like a combination of both separate factions that escaped in different directions and re emerged at different times

[@chaoszitrone3270]

Didnt we get kinda the same thing already with the vong?

[@jordanhendrix2619]

Screw Disney and EA for canning all the unfinished LucasArts projects.

[@JediLordNathan]

This is the story I wanted and the reason I HATE SWTOR amongst other reasons not the least of what it did to Revan and the Exile's characters, but that game cheated me and everyone else of a proper KOTOR 3, a game that we should HAVE gotten and I'd honestly rather live in the timeline where that happened.

[@Hello-bi1pm]

Maybe in that timeline Star Wars isn't sold either!

[@invictuserror4309]

I want the original the original sounds hardcore and bloody vs what we got

[@Engine33Truck]

I’m always down for KOTOR era content on this channel!

[@islandmaster5064]

It's Za- HA- doom

[@badgamemaster]

A sad thing... many great game ideas often ends getting thrown away... something we gets to see hints of the lost ideas.

[@adamm.6595]

I thought for a time that the VONG were going to be long lost Sith that traveled away, lost touch with the Force, learned how to survive by a new culture/ideology outside the Force etc, but coming home to the star wars galaxy to reclaim. How they eventually turned out is also cool but... Amazing that none of this lore was taken and remotely used. Absolutely saddening and depressing considering the money put behind them. The new writers have no imagination.

[@lordofpain3476]

Emperor Valkorian was a dark side God !!!

[@TheTeutonicPlague]

What we got is still pretty cool though

[@criadordecurio4659]

In my personal opinion, I think the true sith should have been waiting on the planet Exegol in order to invade the republic. Really ladies and gentlemen, I never liked the new trilogy but the only thing that caught my attention was the planet Exegol and I was thinking of this planet in Kotor 3

[@criadordecurio4659]

What you think?

[@DM5550Z]

Same exact thing. Exegol fits kotor 3 perfectly, disney is sitting on a gold mine which would add much more context to the sequels.

[@therevahchist2790]

Kotor 2 was brilliant and in many ways SWOTOR was an unworthy successor.

[@deion1564]

True Sith would've been amazing to see as you couldn't truly beat it, there'll always be survivors or someone wanting to learn that truth. Would've been a great constant enemy for the Jedi and the Republic to fight against, especially if the True Sith philosophy evolved with the times.

[@z0mbieland956]

Thanks, now I'm gonna do a whole ass rewatch of Babylon 5 😅

[@jjc5407]

Always time well spent.

[@Legio_Purpura_10_28]

Vitiate Empires.