The most PERPLEXING word musicians use

I gathered as many opinions on what musicians think is CHEESY!
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[@peterbrough2461]

If it's not very gouda and the emotion is not very brie-lievable?

[@NahreSol]

😂😂😂

[@diegoleiva7242]

I cheese what you did there.

[@OG_Mereles]

@@NahreSol Chessy involves A) a goal B) an assortment of tools to achieve it C) the knowledge that some tools yields greater results D) the decision to rely only on the most effective of them.

[@Namansmusic31]

Who gave you Parmesan to make this puns?

[@marfaxa]

you munster

[@giocosovelasco]

"Let's talk to some of my musician friends to know what cheesy is for them." **literally brings out THE Hans Zimmer**

[@Jason75913]

I was at first in disbelief.

[@SlyHikari03]

The BWAAAAH man himself

[@AnthonyPtak]

Exactly

[@pianoecho3032]

Ikr!

[@bpevs]

what a flex

[@calebfudrums]

casually asking ur friend hans zimmer about cheese hahah

[@chrisdavis2161]

the biggest musical flex

[@skippityblippity8656]

Id be very cheesed to meet him

[@tweer64]

Didn’t he inadvertently invent one of the most cheesy tactics in film scoring (Inception horn).

[@2m7b5]

​@@tweer64 Yeah, but honestly I feel like that's more of a credit than anything. It's cheesy now, but kind of brilliant that he created something that became so ubiquitous. I used to hate it, but when I heard him explain how he came up with it it kind of blew my mind.

[@dopaminecloud]

@@tweer64 milk isn't born cheesy

[@iseetheendisnear2416]

To me, cheesiness is almost a test of patience because of how familiar we are with what comes next.

[@NahreSol]

Ahh interesting !

[@mrebholz]

Yes, predictability is a component. Making a piece straight unoriginal.

[@jsullivan2112]

This! Perfect. I have zero patience for it.

[@eliott1806]

I just love how you're casually interviewing the greatest musicians out there. Another great video, thanks!

[@fortinoyanez7833]

That's what I was thinking. She's literally on a first name basis with freaking Hans Zimmer!!

[@chickenflavor9880]

Is he the greatest?

[@jazzfan7491]

Eliades Ochoa? David Hildalgo? Keith Jarrett?

[@demonurge]

A helpful category here is "kitsch." A kitsch is cheesy, but typically knowingly cheesy and pursued/performed because it is just fun. Kitsch movements are often helpful counterpoints to formalist movements ("Hey, art can just be about having a good laugh, too").

[@mokkaherrman1104]

Exactly. Cheese is no problem at all. But liking the cheese without knowing that it is cheese, will make you seem inauthentic.

[@squodge]

How about schmaltzy?

[@unblorbosyourshows9635]

I'm not a music person so what I got from this comment is that anime is kitsch

[@leodu561]

This reminds me so much of Milan Kundera

[@andyisdead]

You don't know what kitsch is

[@8kw7mx9]

Just casually gettin Hans Zimmer to the video, damn Nahre you're a legend, I love your videos, they deal with such complex musical topics

[@NahreSol]

Thank you !!

[@GregorPQ]

@@NahreSol How did you do it??

[@tompw3141]

Hans: I'm worried why Nahre is asking me this.

[@Ninejahman]

The king of "cheap" movie scoring, boring after Gladiator.

[@M419.99]

@@Ninejahman if his works are cheap, then your existence can be considered almost worthless

[@anyandeverything15]

My man really called one of Chopin's most harmonically complex etudes "cheesy" and made my head pop clean off. I NEED to hear that justification.

[@edwardjons8684]

I think the comment was justifiable only on the basis that some performances are cheesy, rather than the music itself.

[@anyandeverything15]

To be fair to him, it is often played in a very over-emotive way. However, it's a bit of a deep cut to be taking a stab at when raindrop prelude and funeral march exist.

[@anyandeverything15]

@@edwardjons8684 actually 1000% fair

[@tsumeristudio639]

@@edwardjons8684 True but that's like saying Leonard Cohen is cheesy because the thousands of awful covers of Hallelujah

[@AnthonyPtak]

Mozart tho

[@OG_Mereles]

I'd like to add to the plethora of opinions by suggesting a more practical approach: Do you know how there's some video games that lets a player use a particular move that drastically improves his chances of winning? If the player knowingly makes this his only resource to achieve their goal you can declare that they are in fact 'Cheesing it'. This makes really easy to understand what is 'Cheesy'. It involves A) a goal B) an assortment of tools to achieve it C) the knowledge that some tools yields greater results D) the decision to rely only on the most effective of them.

[@OG_Mereles]

If no goal was defined, then you might end with something corny or of a lesser quality. If you have a goal but there's only one way to achieve it then you are just 'Doing it'. If you have a set of different tools but all are equally effective then we can only disagree to the stylistic choice but that revolves around personal opinion, and finally if you don't rely on a singular tool and explore all the creative options at your disposal... I guarantee the result won't be cheesy.

[@algorix8420]

I agree 100%

[@atquinn1975]

This was a perfect example and easy to relate to as I employ cheesy tactics whenever possible in videogames lol

[@eliottveyrier6253]

yeah, in divinity its cheesy to fill up a chest until its heavy enough to one shot anything when you drop it on enemies, because it doesn't require much effort after the initial idea I think you get "cheesy" when you choose something that takes the least amout of effort to achieve your goal going for an emotion you want the listener to have is in some contexts an easy way out of having to feel your own, and so is hiding behind a "performer" persona that expresses fake and over-exagerated emotion when interpreting music

[@adamcarter6013]

I think there is alot of class information involved in what is cheesy according to who. A lot of times, "cheesy" is used by musicians among themselves or by critics to denigrate unsophisticated mass appeal, in order to reaffirm the distinction between the undiscerning masses and the discerning artists/critics/sophisticates. Though anyone with an intimate and hard earned familiarity with any style of music hates to see cheese ruin a subtle piece of music by erasing it's subtlety. Or see the beauty of restraint obliterated my overplaying or maximizing. This is really a rather tricky question since cheese is such a catchall term like you mention.

[@Bati_]

Exactly, I'm 100% convinced that one cannot understand music from a holistic approach if the discussion surrounding politics is not involved. A lot of music criticism has something to do with politics and musical taste has been class-dependent through the course of history.

[@m.n152]

So critics saying cheesy is critics being "cheesy" because its just too snobbish, vague and lazy without being meaningful?

[@karawethan]

Key phrase: "A lot of times." Like, I have a hard time imagining mainstream hip-hop today being labeled cheesy, despite hip-hop being one of the most (the most?) widely denigrated musics, and of course that has connections with class. On the other hand, I have a very EASY time recognizing the outright cheese of some 80s/90s hip-hop. Same genre, similar class associations, different eras. To me it seems that cheese is strongly associated with the sense of something being outdated. Like a negative form of nostalgia. And being into outdated things, not "being with the times," may be percieved as lower class (in a cultural rather than economic sense) WITHIN a given community.

[@Bati_]

​@@karawethan Beware that if one labels the Hip-Hop movement in that insulting way, it can also be a form of racism. I strongly believe that Hip Hop has been the most important form of modern music since 1973. If one doesn't get its importance in the history of music, s/he will have a really hard time understanding modern music from a holistic approach.

[@karawethan]

@@Bati_ Have **I** labeled hip-hop in an insulting way? I am just describing a general perception. For example, it's only in recent years that hip-hop/rap has begun to be seriously studied by musicologists/music theorists. Why? Certainly racism has something to do with it. I fail to see how I am being racist for pointing that out.

[@victotronics]

There is an anecdote in John Cage's "Silence" where he witnesses some master musician listen to a pretty bad performance of a mediocre piece, and totally enjoying it. Cage asks "why" and the master explains that you have to distinguish between the quality of the material, of the performance, and of the intention/sincerity of the performer. I think Zimmer was on it when he said "unearned emotion". In Cage's terms that's the sincerity lacking.

[@tofuking]

Cheesiness is so intricately tied to pop culture and familiarity, so much so that it becomes subjective almost entirely based on the amount of musical exposure one has. I would say the the i-iv-i or i-ii-i are NOT cheesy to most "laypeople", but they are to professional musicians who have (as he admitted) seen and played all over the place.

[@alexanderbayramov2626]

tbh these progressions are really beautiful by their own, but it seems that even this can be quite subjective

[@Franatom]

"straight formaggio" will be my new way to describe something cheesy forever

[@NahreSol]

😂

[@AnthonyPtak]

add that to the score. pianissimo, formaggio

[@josephcowan6779]

The problem with the concept of "cheesy" is the same as the concept of taste or tastelessness. It is so subjective, and changes all the time with culture and context. There is a desire to put down what other people enjoy as bad taste, putting it into a category of lower class things, but different people take a different extreme to the point where some would dismiss Chopin and all Romantic era composers as cheesy and bad taste in favor of more modern music which they would see as more complex and mature. And then there's people that love Romantic music, and will look down on film music or pop classical as cheesy, and so on. We can't control what affects us emotionally, so just listen to the music that you honestly enjoy, even if it's mostly cheesy Disney musicals.

[@pickleballer1729]

I think one of the great things about this video was that it DID NOT put whole genres into or excluded from "Cheesy"- except for perhaps Disney pap. (And, imo, Disco.)

[@vincenttavani6380]

I heard a conservatory student's piece written in honor of Leonard Bernstein. It felt like an elaborate karaoke song, and called him an affectionate nickname, but done so earnestly I couldn't help but let it transcend its cheese.

[@Jason75913]

wat

[@eaterdrinker000]

mp3 or it didn't happen

[@Cherodar]

Your "cheesy" Bach was still beautiful though, and I'd love to hear more of it! Romanticized Bach is generally great and deserves more love, I'd argue.

[@stefan1024]

I agree.

[@andresgunther]

I grew up listening to Wanda Landowska (Harpsichord) and Virgil Fox (organ) and my study scores were the Busoni Edition. Still better than the "Typewriter style" Bach playing that nowadays is considered "historically correct"!

[@rayancharafeddine4982]

@@andresgunther not an HIP cukoo myself but the HIP keyboardist all but do typewriter à la Gould, they use rythmic manipulation and free ornementation because their history books tell them to

[@pianorover]

Totally! Just a listen of Yudina's Italian Concerto 2nd Movement is enough to prove Hans is wrong here...

[@Marklar3]

@@rayancharafeddine4982 Maybe it's pedantic, but In my experience, people who study HIP (historically informed practice) usually go to primary sources rather than history books. Things like treatises on how to play keyboard music or reviews of performances written at the time. And yes, they did not advocate for perfectly literal interpretations of the written rhythms. The way they talked about manipulating rhythm was different from how it was talked about in the romantic era and later though, which is why a lot of people have been erroneously told to play Baroque and sometimes Classical era music perfectly straight. In this video, Nahre says not to play the melody separate from the bass, but rolling chords is a very common expressive tool in harpsichord music (rolled chords seem louder).

[@dliessmgg]

in my opinion: making music (or any art, really) is a balance act between following a culture and bringing something new to the table. "cheesy" is when something is perceived as not bringing enough new things to the table, when it's sticking to the script of the culture too closely. edit: but at the same time, it has to be acknowledged that 'cheesy' is sometimes used to be like "oh those uneducated masses don't know anything good even if it hits them in the face"

[@christopher-miles]

wtf, wait? you are literally mates with Zimmer amongst others. you are very talented, i'm not sure why this was a surprise. great stuff! cheese! (cheers)

[@jasonekratz]

yeah this is what i was thinking. whoa...you know freaking Hans Zimmer?!?

[@LesterBrunt]

She’s not just very talented but literally one of the hardest working and most skilled pianists in the world.

[@africanhistory]

Mates? or he let her have an interview? Celb worship is over rated. If you present you stuff well you can meet almost anyone.

[@areamusicale]

When the Beatles recorded "I am the walrus", John Lennon asked George Martin for the arrangements to "make it cheese". George Martin translated the request as adding a lot of strings.

[@milespruchnik7184]

This is hilarious 😂

[@forrcaho]

I used to work nights at a place where we took turns playing our favorite cassettes, and one night we listened to Kenny G. For every song, I thought, oh, this is an instrumental interpretation of some romantic ballad on the radio, and I just couldn't remember the words for any of them. I was actually shocked when afterwards I looked at the case and saw that all of the songs were his original music. That led me to think about what "cheesy" really means in music, because Kenny G is the prime exemplar. Even though I had never heard most of the tunes before, everything sounded weirdly familiar in an uncanny valley sort of way. Is that because it was so formulaic? I'm not sure.

[@johnkruton9708]

i’ve you’ve wandered any department store or mall or building that plays “elevator music” then you’ve heard Kenny G. Maybe that’s why it was familiar but not..?

[@TheAskald]

For me, cheesiness has something to do with quotes like "does a swan dress up?" or "a true king never calls himself a king". If you sugarcoat a piece, and try to tell to the audience too hard to notice something, it will come out cheesy. It's about presentation.

[@digitig]

Some of those things I would call "corny" rather than "cheesy". I wonder whether there's an overlap (or even whether I'm right about the being a distinction). I'd put the emotional things under "cheesy" and the cliché under "corny". So iv-I fits under both. (And let's not forget that every cliché was once original and creative.)

[@Schattenhall]

Yes, I think this distinction/overlap between "cheesy" and "corny" is really interesting - and, as a german, I wonder where/how native english speakers would pidgeonhole the word "kitsch" in that context.

[@Schattenhall]

In german, the word "kitsch" means "cheap art that is overindulgingly sedimental and therefore not really art". It gets complicated when thinking of cheesy/corny/kitschy as deliberate aesthetics, but when just broadly using these categories for an artwork as a product, I would say: art wants to express, kitsch wants to sell.

[@aseomg]

In Hip Hop music, it's the corny rapper, not the cheesy rapper. Context matters...

[@benkatof5852]

Yeah, cheesy, corny... square, need a Venn diagram

[@digitig]

All this discussion of cheese and corn, now I'm craving nachos...

[@nixonkutz3018]

See also "schmaltz" and its cousin "schlock." Hans Zimmer validated how I've always summarized it: "sentiment, versus sensation." But then in the closing moments you bring in the word "Quality" - as in, the Robert Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"/"Lila" use of the term? Lots more to be explored there!

[@edwardjons8684]

To me, saying something is cheesy is always a projection of vanity - it means a person is saying to others ‘I’m too good for this music’ or ‘I’m embarassed by this music’ which is a pretty despicable attitude really in any art form.

[@16inchesoc41]

I think we all can be emotionally defensive and use the cheesy term to distance ourselves from exposed emotions. Great video as always. You might try Sianne Ngai for help on this she writes about minor aesthetic qualities.

[@Doodsrsly]

I agree with another commenter here; I think you kinda gotta be familiar with the music to find it cheesy because you have to know conventions and cliches, etc. It’s kinda like language-some of my German friends love English puns (genuinely find them hilarious) or find our idioms interesting. Some English speakers love dad jokes, full of puns, but others roll their eyes. As was said in the video, nostalgia and sentimental affectation make something cheesy too. I think this is one of the reasons it can be hard to make a part of the classical repertoire sound like your own, as well; how do you put yourself into the music without also forcing a contrived “emotionality” to it and not betraying the piece?

[@DoctorLazertron]

Cheesy is definitely not always a bad thing. Aimer has a lot of songs with these big, bombastic, emotional moments where the song breaks into loud, slow drums, and romantic strings or heavy guitar. I know when they’re coming, I know what they’re going for, and I still fall for it. Great music. “Dawn” and “re:frain” are good examples of this.

[@gerardo4104]

OH MY GOD!!! I'll never forget you had the opportunity to show us how to dance the Macarena but you didn't. My weekend has been ruined!!!😂😂

[@NahreSol]

😂

[@Jason75913]

"Cheesey", to me, tends to sound bright and "juvenile"/"cutesy", potentially "clichéd" as well. edit: Chopin being "cheesey" is heresy.

[@MrJdsenior]

Then he shouldn't have been. Kidding, fully agree.

[@mokkaherrman1104]

I think 'Cheesy' essentially means focusing on nothing but the surface level of the music. When pianists play with full pedal, focus on only the melody, pretentiously trying to sound more emotional, other pianists will be able to tell. And they won't like it. But people who have no understanding of classical music will find it touching. I think especially this difference between 'understanding the music' and only 'feeling the music' is what makes things cheesy. You call things cheesy when they seem to be liked only by those who enjoy music on a surface level, but truly have no deeper interest in it. This is also the reason there's so much toxicity around the term. I personally think enjoying cheesy music is completely fine and fun. But optimally, you have some awareness of it.

[@MaxIronsThird]

You don't need to be a musician to notice the cheese. The cheese is all about being unsubtle, a good portion of the population, maybe 1/5, can notice when you're trying too hard to elicit a certain emotion onto the listener and even predict when you're going to start with the cheese and what you're going to do after.

[@mokkaherrman1104]

@@MaxIronsThird The musician was rather an example. If you have deeper interest in the music, you can tell. It's only when people say they are total fans, without realizing the cheesy-ness, when it starts to seem... inauthentic. You can be a fan of cheese, but you should optimally know it is cheese.

[@JackEscapedTheBox]

i think it speaks to your character that you had Hans Zimmer in a video and **didn't** use it for clickbait

[@adk_studios]

Apart from the musical stuff, I gotta say the video editing is soooo classy... How, the different footages are cut and placed was really interesting IMO.

[@kpunkt.klaviermusik]

In classical music there is so much fear of playing / singing too "cheesy" and as a consequence, everyone is playing so restricted, etude-like and robotic. I wonder where this comes from. Perhaps it's Strawinsky's classizistic style which many people misunderstood as the "real classical style" (which it isn't!)

[@AnthonyPtak]

yup

[@alkanista]

I think it comes from having recordings that can be listened to over and over. And from a change in artistic culture of all sorts that resulted from WWI and WWII.

[@margaritadolukhanova3878]

Ha! The Balance is the God! ( not robotic and not cheesy ) The hardest! The taste! The ability to understand right and because of that, to feel right and to express.

[@kpunkt.klaviermusik]

@@margaritadolukhanova3878 Haha, yes that's right :-) But I think, when everyone is playing in such a restricted manner and in constant fear of giving to much room for emotions - some should just let their emotions go where they want to go and balance all this strictness out ^^

[@PiergiorgioPirro]

"Cheesy", "uncool", "kitsch" and so on... terms that are inherently impossible to define and depend heavily on the cultural context. For this reason, they are the perfect words for tribal talk. They are used with a clear goal: establishing a sense of belonging to a community and exclude someone else from it. They emerge from fear of being outcasts and should not be used by responsible, grown-up artists.

[@brandonacker]

I just discovered your channel. Keep up the great work!

[@vincenttavani6380]

Weird how such a technically precise definition can then turn around and make as horrendous a judgment as considering Celine Dion cheesy.

[@dougdavis8986]

She's not cheesy. She's just sings mostly garbage elevator music. Cheesy would be a positive step.

[@vincenttavani6380]

@@dougdavis8986 All I know that after seeing this analysis of her by Neely I can't help but admire her kzbin.info/www/bejne/m6HUipmqZpehjJY

[@bacicinvatteneaca]

Bro she kinda is

[@alexandrosgoulas]

As a music lover who's also trying to make his own music, I feel that this is a very legitimate question to ask ourselves (and so far the video was very interesting, as always!), but the more I hear what some people define as cheesy, the more I feel that no description can really provide a "recipe" on how to identify and avoid what's cheesy and what's not.. I feel like trying too hard to answer this question may push me away from the music that I truly enjoy and what I may end up creating. Am I the only one who feels like this? Should we just focus on what feels good and "authentic" to us?

[@stefan1024]

For musical growth it might be helpful as well to listen to music you don't initially enjoy and analyse it. It might grow on you and expand your musical vocabulary and if not, you might learn to identify and avoid the elements you dislike when creating your own music.

[@hashx6360]

You can find cheesiness in most stage piano demos where they use sustain full pedal for every single note. They’d use it for the presenter voice if they could. The good intention part is to show up the max polyphony of the instrument, but many times it’s to distract listener from simplicity of the sound it’s supposed to make without much effort.

[@Disso_nant]

I think there are two things that are incredibly important to being a good artist: knowing what you like and getting feedback. If you don't know what you like, you can never make something that is honest and true to yourself. If you never seek feedback, you will never understand how your music is received and if you're making good on what you would like to deliver. To answer your question, something that this video displays really well is that cheesiness is incredibly subjective. Everyone has a different opinion of what makes something cheesy and sometimes it doesn't even matter that something is cheesy. I would say, similarly to someone above, that you should listen to music that you find cheesy to understand why you think it is such. Then you can make a conscious decision on whether or not to employ those things and if so, when and where. If something sounds good to you, do not abandon it. If you get feedback from a lot of people telling you that they don't like it, then you can weigh their experience against your intention and experience and decide if it should change.

[@kasane1337]

I mean, I'm also just a beginner in making music, but yeah, I usually just go with what feels good and authentic to me without really thinking too much of whether it's cheesy. Like people said in the video, it can also be completely fine, just don't stagnate in your musical development and use the same techniques every time. Learn, improve, experiment, and you'll have a great time ahead of you ;-)

[@hashx6360]

@@kasane1337 we are all beginners, because we learn as we go continuously. At the end .. cheesy or not .. what matters is what you present with your music “birds sing several melodies and arrange together without a single music class” ;) enjoy your day

[@SamChaneyProductions]

What a great subject. I've thought about this a lot and I think it's related to what I call the Ironic-Earnest spectrum. On one side you have purely earnest music, like the emotional and raw folk ballads of Leonard Cohen, and on the other side there is purely ironic and self-aware music like Frank Zappa's "Don't Eat the Yellow Snow" which is basically meaningless but very self-aware. Cheese is like a line 90 degrees from this spectrum. It pretends to be earnest but it's actually manufactured to pull on your heart strings almost against your will. In this way, it is neither ironic nor earnest. It's trying very hard to make you feel something, but it (or the artist) isn't actually feeling anything, AND they are not self-aware about that.

[@alkanista]

I disagree - I think someone can be totally earnest and still make cheesy music, or any other kind of "art". For example, this often happens in religious stuff, I think.

[@brandongunnarson7483]

Cheesy is also a function of music you are familiar with/grew up on. Orchestral music is not something I grew up on, so some of the things that are nostalgic or pull on the heart strings are in fact new sounds to me. The iv chord in the rachmaninoff example feels honest and genuine, painful and raw, but playing rhythmically in a mixolydian mode feels cheesy because it feels like old rock to me. It feels outdated and pandering, because that is the music I know. To those that do not study the lineage of classical music, some of those cheesy things are genuinely enjoyable, simply because it's not an overused cliche if it hasn't been used on you.

[@VexylObby]

I once gave a lesson on “Cheesy Modulation”, where I showed how to modulate between 2 keys (slices of bread) using 1 chord (the cheese). The cheese helped remember!

[@Melissa0774]

To me, the definition of cheesy music is all of the Casio keyboard demos on the keyboards that teach you how to play songs by making the keys light up. It's the way they're arranged, and the instrument sounds they choose, especially how they add trumpet sounds to stuff that totally shouldn't have it.

[@traviswichtendahl5648]

What Ema Nikolovska says about superficially cheesy material presented in an "ironic" way is so good. You have the base layer, where the cheesy music manipulates the emotions in a transparent way, then you have a layer above that, which addresses the social meaning of that manipulation. A related example would be to ingratiate oneself by deliberately being embarrassing.

[@SundriedSage]

i think a big part of what’s “cheesy” is familiarity, or lack of originality. if you know what’s coming next, if something is too expected and/or overdone, it becomes “cheesy” or “cliché.” hence why a lot of experienced musicians who have a greater repertoire of knowledge in more obscure pieces might consider overly mainstream pieces such as “river flows in you” to be very “cheesy,” when the general public might find it incredibly moving. It’s interesting because many pieces weren’t considered to be “cheesy” until it trended on tiktok and/or it became more mainstream (such as clair de lune) - so a lot of it can also be a musician’s superiority complex to solidify their “niche” as someone who isn’t “basic.” another example of the familiarity concept is when you know too much of the intention behind how the musician is trying to convey emotion, such as overdone expressions (lang lang is a great example of who many consider to be “cheesy”) and an overly flowery/romantic style of play - hence why a lot of people describe it as “trying too hard,” when it might just be because you expected and/or understood the intention behind what they were trying to do too much.

[@asa_ames]

Did that guy just say Chopin Op 10 No 3 is cheesy? Wow, that’s a hot take. What a terrible opinion lol. Great video though!

[@AnthonyPtak]

terrible etude by Chopin.

[@martinaflorencio776]

Richard Claydernman and Andre Rieu até two major examples of cheesy for me

[@PassionPno]

Add Yiruma to the list.

[@sanferrera]

And Liberace, the father of the "genre".

[@gungnirvilizv159]

To you??? You mean objetive the most cheesy

[@leonlinton634]

Andrew Lloyd Webber.

[@sanferrera]

@@leonlinton634 haha...absoutely.

[@Rubrickety]

Fascinating to have Hans Zimmer in there. I'd say Zimmer is great because he's not cheesy, and John Williams is great because he _is_ cheesy. (Although I think that cheese came close to ruining Schindler's List near the end...)

[@miro.georgiev97]

I don't know. I've always found Zimmer's music to be kinda cheesy when it isn't just cold, whereas Williams can move me to tears with hardly any effort, and I _welcome_ it, too.

[@guyb7005]

btw - Hans Zimmer's decor and wardrobe is such a nice sepia palette - funny how the wardrobe and residence of your interviewees are so coordinated!

[@geraldvaughan5103]

I just discovered you tonight - I hope to see a lot more of you. You are a breath of fresh air to me. With all that reference to cheesiness, you've whetted my appetite for a pitza - I'm going to the kitchen right now to put one in the oven. Wish you were here and hope to see you soon.

[@ProgRockKeys]

This has been SO instructive! After years of searching, I realize I do have a genre!

[@bareakon]

Kinda was waiting for you to make a composition that's deliberately cheesey based on what you learned.

[@Bnio]

Borderline cheesy can be sublime. Considering Hans Zimmer is in this video, consider the main theme from The Crown, especially when it is used to punctuate the end of episodes, including the first episode. It's just a bunch of rowboats slowly heading out for a duck hunt in the fog, but the roaring horn and thundering strings make it compelling in a way I could see a lot of people pooh-poohing, but I love it.

[@wrongpingpong]

Lol 9:45 basically calling out MusicalBasics and nearly every KZbin composer

[@Lightning4554]

Thank you very much Nahre!! This was an interesting look at what exactly people consider cheesy. I've had a conversation like this before with my band director, back when I was in high school, and no matter who I seemed to ask it allows met something different. I listen to every genre of music, because music is awesome, and I think that every genre has what can be called 'cheese', but perhaps that's what gives the genre its characteristic. Or maybe I'm just trying to come up with a clever reason for why we may perceive cheese. I do think that the way you describe cheesy is also very dependent on your musical ability, yet I think this comment is long enough, haha. Thank you once for making such fantastic content, hope you are doing well!

[@mienaikoe]

> the way you describe cheesy is also very dependent on your musical ability 100%. I actually thought the romanticized Bach was like ok even though it's not what Bach intended. It didn't seem "cheesy" to me, more like if Bach had lived in the romantic era but still wrote with baroque patterns.

[@levibloch8694]

Music sounds cheesy if you, as the performer, take more emotion than you give.

[@NahreSol]

Wow, nice!!

[@user-hy4tz3vk8o]

Thank you, Nahre, for the hard work you've put into making this video. It really contains tons of invaluable information. I'm always learning so much from every video you make. I always have to watch every video you make for five times or more because they're so informative. I've just watched like a whole masterclass on how not to sound cheesy in about 12 minutes. You are such a great teacher. Thank you!

[@bobsala7780]

I’m a metalhead and there is an entire sub-genre of metal that is considered cheesy: power metal. A notable example would be the band DragonForce and their most popular song “Through the Fire and the Flames”. I’ve never quite understood why power metal is considered cheesy, but your description of something “uncool” hits close to the mark.

[@emmetharrigan5234]

This may be a bit reductive but to me cheesy is to music what kitsch is to visual arts

[@Mnimosa]

Could we see 'cheesy' as a familiar translation of 'ostentatious'? An over-insistent and annoying display... Which would not mean then that the thing in question is lacking, but it could be so: an ostentatious display of a quality that is either there or partially or totally absent. Cheesiness-ostentation is then presumed by the observer, is easily detectable when the quality so displayed is absent, but is more of a subjective judgment when the quality is present. This would join with the sincerity aspect discussed by many in the video. It would also mean that this is not high art frowning down on popular art. Popular music can indeed be cheesy but is not necessarily so. And classical music or its interpretation can indeed be ostentatious. I think that this is where Nahre and others are getting at in the observations on Chopin. Even the great, in pursuit of ever more greatness, is flirting with cheesiness. To cheese or not to cheese...

[@maultooga]

I think core to what 'cheesy' means is a pieces popularity surpasses the actual value that one gets from the piece itself. As you listen to a piece over and over, naturally the value of that piece of music decreases, and depending on how complex it is, it may or may not take longer for that value to drop.

[@SohailSiadat]

Cheesiness is related to boredom ( repeat ), which is amplified for people who are trained or expert or have better (musical) literacy. Something that is fully processed and has no more novelty and substance “anymore”. So the temporal aspect is also key: “after” being processed, and also “ repeat”: the element of perceived as repeated. (DA). To who and when.

[@robhogg68]

I do think that cheese is underrated. We are taught to devalue our emotions, to be too serious, and there is a place for unashamed sentimentality. "For well you know that it's a fool who plays it cool. By making his world a little colder", as Paul McCartney* sang. Where the feeling is authentic, and the performer is inviting the audience to share it, it can be a joyous experience. * Not John Lennon.

[@MitchSumner]

I think about that line a lot. Though it was Paul's!

[@jan_kisan]

absolutely agree

[@AnthonyPtak]

literally added a slice of Kraft singles using Lennon. "I don[t believe in Beatles."

[@robhogg68]

@@MitchSumner And you are right. But yes, it's a great line, whoever wrote it.

[@robhogg68]

@@AnthonyPtak Hmm... Kraft Singles? They have to be the least cheesy cheese around. You could at least have gone for a nice cheddar.

[@1Fruitninja1]

hot take: What you hear as cheasy or not is entirely subjective and one probably shouldn't care how other people perceive ones personal artistic expression :D

[@lorihunt7318]

You are so humble, soft spoken, and smart! I am so excited to learn from you about things that are usually so dry! I love cheese! ❤

[@billraty14]

A couple of quibbles, especially around Bach, and the type of instrument to be used. The pianoforte was invented after Bach died. The keyboard instruments he had were harpsichords, clavichords, or organs, only one of which had any organic dynamic response (clavichords), and the harpsichord was the premiere concert instrument, and it is the epitome of a thin tinny piano. Second, the only way a performer could add emphasis was with difference in tempo, rubato, etc., which Bach (in)famously rarely marked in his scores, meaning it isn't required but it isn't prohibited either. Most of Bach's expressiveness is actually harmonic and contrapuntal in nature, which is why it easily can be transcribed between everything between a Moog Synthesizer, crude computer beep generator, to the Swingle Singers.

[@phyzygy]

Mostly agree except Bach did have in his later years occasion to play several new examples of Silbermann's fortepianos at the Court of Frederick the Great and composed The Musical Offering series (published in 1747) following that experience.

[@andresgunther]

Bach was born 1685. Cristofiori invented the pianoforte in 1698, when Bach was 13 years old. By 1750 (when Bach died) the pianoforte had already been perfected by some notable builders, specifically his exact contemporary Gottfried Silbermann. Bach played on Silbermann's earlier pianofortes and criticized their heavy action and poor treble. The master didn't take that well and had a run-in with Bach, but ultimately improved his fortepianos, and Bach selected (and played on) a Silbermann pianoforte for Frederik the Great in 1749. By the way: The English title "Well Tempered Harpsichord" is mistranslated; the original title "Das Wohltemperierte Clavier" means literally "The well tempered Keyboard Instrument" although Bach preferred the harpsichord as instrument of choice.

[@TamDNB]

Look, sometimes you just gotta embrace the cheese 🤗

[@NahreSol]

Totally!!

[@maria_remedios]

Cheese is making surface level music that relies on stereotypes and emotional manipulation, it's also a favorite buzzword of pretentious and over-achieving musicians.

[@joselefoul6039]

Great video ! Very interesting subject! I would personally add another dimension to your already quite complete analysis, which is the societal dimension of the perception. In fact I think that a lot of what we percieve as good/bad taste is also based on quite trivial elements about us: our age, our background, but also our whealth, our education, personnal history, habits,... And that to some extent, our perception of what is good/bad music is also based on what we reject as "non-valid" music and that can reaaly change in different social circles. I think intersting to take these elements into account when dealing with those subjects. Love your videos !

[@gustavocarballo7345]

The problem with popular music is marketing, which, due to the rules of consumption, wants art to be made like aspirin, one bestseller one after another. That's why we got it into our heads that the old is useless because it's old (explain it to me with classical music). However, anyone makes art (to the best of their ability) for a social environment that is common to them. The theme is diffusion, who decides what music or what art is seen and what benefit that product brings

[@DLVRYDRYVR]

Planets are made of cheese 🧀 therefore everything *must be* cheesy!

[@BrassicaRappa]

1:16 Oh, I like this! There's a particular way of using the word "sentimental" that I associate with the Russians...and I really *feel* what they mean when they say it, but I couldn't ever put it into other words. "Inauthentic, unearned emotion" might just be it! I think Satie is cheesy. Some of his cheese is good cheese though! He makes a lot of stinky cheese that I like to take in small bites every once in awhile. Just not too much all at once or it looses its "zing." 😊

[@AnthonyPtak]

Ukraine tho. Putin is cheesey.

[@BrassicaRappa]

@@AnthonyPtak wha...?

[@AnthonyPtak]

@@BrassicaRappa someone mentioned Russian sentimental music... There's a war going on trying to get perspective view.

[@BrassicaRappa]

@@AnthonyPtak Okay, gotcha. I think in psychoanalysis they call that "free association."

[@AnthonyPtak]

@@BrassicaRappa I think under international law it's called "war crimes."

[@GROENAASMusic]

"What do we mean when we call a piece of music 'cheesy'?" This already has a vsauce-feel to it. With that said... *Playing "Moon Men" by Jake Chudnow*

[@nerilcatte0931]

Fascinating content! I’ve always wondered about this level of cheesiness when performing

[@NahreSol]

Thank you!

[@bfish89ryuhayabusa]

To me, an important part of what makes something cheesy, whether this is directly noticeable or not, is a lack of sincerety. If something is truly sincere, it cannot be cheesy. For example, I don't believe a single emotion from Steve Perry, so most of his singing that leans into his faux-emotive style is especially cheesy to me. I don't think that's the only thing, because there's a lot of things I see that I also consider faux-emotion that aren't necessarily cheesy. Also, I have noticed that it's much harder to write a happy song that isn't cheesy, it so often feels false. I was impressed by Pharrell Williams' "Happy" because it feels like such a genuine expression of happiness that I couldn't read it as cheesy.

[@10mimu]

I like how Nahre asked "What is cheesy? Do we apply the word to express our opinions or to attribute specific musical qualities?" Can't this be asked of every aesthetic term? Maybe even emotive ones like "sad". Does the music make me feel sad or, moreover, is *the* music sad in some sense? Obviously the music isn't feeling sadness because it isn't a mind. But... maybe there is something objective about sadness in music!

[@NZsaltz]

having hanz zimmer in your video and NOT clickbaiting him in the title is impressive

[@ALoonwolf]

The music at the end of most films where there is a completely predictable final success and everybody is cheering.

[@lawrencetaylor4101]

My love of classical music was refined by that Bugs Bunny cartoon. You really went after low hanging fruit, there. But sometimes you have apples with a cheese tray.

[@christophergetchell6490]

One of the big reasons I love watching this channel is that I never know where a particular video study is going to go. Today's was wonderfully lighthearted as well as being informative!

[@user-fj9px3sl1l]

Thanks for bringing up this topic that I’ve thought of but never spoken through.

[@rafalsadowski]

The most concise definiton of cheese is when the fourth wall of performance is broken in listeners/watchers mind by thoughts outside of context of media experienced. So for an example, your playing bach 'romanticized' is not cheesy, unless listeners notice, the choice to make it sound nuanced (or whatever they may say impacted the performance) was made by you. The reasons of course can be many and various as it's subjective but the objective core stays the same.

[@AntonioMeres]

02:42 Taking about Chayanne and Luis Miguel being cheesy. "Their brain are made of cheese." There is a huge difference between "being cheesy" and "sell cheese".

[@ghintz2156]

When you casually call your friends and the first person who pops up is friggin Hans Zimmer.

[@Stick-a-fork-in-Gmorks-tort]

I don't know what makes music cheesy. There are just times when I crave it in the mix. Times of wanting a sampler platter so to speak. Times where a block hits the spot. Then the times when I can't take it.

[@gillianomotoso328]

5:50 - omg yes. I remember in the 2000s synthesizers were considered the diabolus in musica basically. Just not pleasant, uncanny. Though of course they were used! They just weren’t used nearly as overtly in pop music as now, now that the 80s are easier to look back on with distance.

[@DaphneAndTheFuzz]

I actually wrote a song called "cheesy" expressing these thoughts and now watching this video makes me feel meta

[@d.garcia5129]

In various instances cheesy is good such as in the sensibility of "camp" underdog understandings forms of esthetics cues

[@Gnurklesquimp]

It really does seem like it has many layers, sometimes I hear certain sound-design such as a lot of 80's fm synths and find those cheesy, even though they're not sappy or anything along those lines. Then there's associations we make to things other than the music itself influencing it further, and sometimes we don't mind certain kinds of cheese, for a lot of people these become guilty pleasures. I don't feel shame, but those 80's synths are an example that sometimes just work for me.

[@earthlightsmusic2743]

When I did my orchestration of "Beren and Lúthien", for the counter-melody behind line: "about him cast her shadowy hair and arms like silver glimmering", I cranked up the sentimental strings to the max, for romantic effect. But only that time, mind!

[@renatocann5142]

I think additionally in pop/rock sometimes the cheese comes from vocal delivery style and visuals as well, like corny old music videos with hammy acting and musical-theater-style vocals.

[@stefan1024]

Ham & cheese 😄

[@frankrepasi7088]

Thats what I like about your approach to investigate and explain the subject matter of your video's you use many different musical people from all walks of life, instruments, forms of music styles, and wonderful video with text to explain and inform. There is an Honest Brilliance to your teaching method's which is why I have now become a Patron .

[@harshalnaidu]

I think what makes something cheesy is A. the inserting ‘fakeness’ to evoke an emotion. B. Not presenting with the seriousness that the piece is generally associated with. Example of A and B : Andre Rieu. I can listen to his orchestra and enjoy the music but I can’t stand seeing his performances. Also Yanni, I love his music but can he maybe not do all the hand movements and sugary messaging which was fine once but not all the time. C. Trying to promote mass appeal by overt and overuse of certain elements. Example : Hans Zimmer’s Braam. It works in the movie sure but I can’t listen to him like I’d listen i say Maurice jarre.

[@acuriousergeorge]

I liked the comments about liking cheese. My aunt was a serious classical musician but confided to me that she liked watching Liberace on television. Liberace is cheese to the Nth degree when he is playing classical schmaltz, but when he's just having a good time pounding the piano he's fun.

[@siulongli3023]

Remember me from movie coco, played by Ernesto, is the perfect embodiment of cheesiness. Especially after you compare his version with Miguel's version.

[@onemanfran]

I agree. For example tale as old as time as sung by Angela Lansbury vs Celine Dion. I would say the latter is cheesy but the former isn't.

[@johnpont2442]

Cheesy comes from the advice photographers used to elicit a smile: Say "cheese". So the appearance or formulation of a statically sustained emotion without touching upon the deeper, more dynamic emotional content behind the gesture. Regardless if you feel good or bad about it.

[@Callmestev]

This makes me wonder about whether making cheesy music is also influenced by whether a musician (especially an amateur one) has a community or not. When you make music on your own without proper education and community, there's no one to validate your music. When you like something you make, you may not be aware that it's cheesy (and the other way around, you may think that your composition is cheesy but actually it's not). I think music community helps musicians learn and get a sense of what's cheesy and what's not, and how they can improve their way of creating something cool through music. (Yea this comment might be a lil personal lol) Anw awesome content as always! Sincerely, A fan from Indonesia

[@faithhopecharity2843]

Also depends on the community. There are always echo chambers within communities that perpetualizing stereotypes & cheesiness. In the end it depends on the individual, whether he/she willing to grows out of the echo chamber to notice the cliche/cheesiness of the musical community.

[@maraboshi]

Cheese on food makes everything taste good, so you don't need to cook something well or use very good ingredients, just put a crapload of cheese and the umami will make you feel you are eating something super nice. **Easy win** by tricking the tastebuds with umami and whatever else are the features of cheese. Same but with musical language.

[@milaberdenisvanberlekom4615]

What I've found recently is that some people refer to there being 'just the right amount of cheese' in a song or part/sound. This usually in a response to what they percieve as elitist, traditionalist or just pretentious judgement. Purposefully engaging in a certain level of cheesy ideas but proving that those ideas can still be used in a tasteful way.

[@ewtam24]

Very cool Nahre! Love all the legit interviews! This whole video feels like hallway discussions from college, especially with all the artists you interviewed! Brava!!!

[@dukeengine1339]

The name as the video presentation was enough... The picture of that man is too much for me to stand... I will hide the video 😂😂😂

[@RossOzarka]

5:17 this interview location is a great example of cheesiness in interior design