The Mythic Crowdfunding Catastrophe: Cardboard Stockholm Syndrome?

#LiegeOfGames #boardgames
Mythic and crowdfunding costs. Delays. Additional costs. Games being held back for more payments.
Would you pay more at this point? Or when is it time to actually just cut the loss?
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[@toddferrullo1871]

Hel the Last Saga is actually their oldest outstanding game by quite a bit. It was likely the game that started to cause their house of cards to fall apart, as even now it is still in a development hell with massive overages on the cost of creation. The money from that campaign is almost certainly used up at this point. The one that irritates me the most is Monsterapocalypse since that game was basically done at the time of campaign with the rules and miniature designs coming from Privateer and the maps being already redone. All they had to do was finalize the layout of some of the cards and send it off to print but currently it is not even on the schedule. If the money from each campaign was being kept separate, as they claim, then that game would have gone into production well over a year ago since it was a post covid campaign and was at the highest point that shipping costs have ever been, so it was completely self contained funding-wise. Let's be honest, Mythic is not just incompetent at fiscal management... they are outright lying to us.

[@jchesney83]

I'm so sad about it, Hel is the one I backed and the concept and art and vibe were all so cool. What a damn waste of creativity and possibility (not to mention all us backer's money.)

[@DVCBear]

I pretty much wrote off my Anastyr and Hel money. Will be a surprise if they ever deliver. Wish Anastyr would have been picked up by Moniloth.

[@matissmatiss3126]

All You can do is complain at this point, but in meantime Leo from Mythic Games is sitting somewhere in his beach house sipping Martinis and enjoying life 😅😂

[@nizmotube]

He’s in a good place

[@pawnstorminreno]

Check out their HEL: the Last Saga campaign! More than 3.5 years already!

[@mandorrandom117]

It's pretty simple. Mythic pulled in $15+ million on their 6 unfulfilled projects. Most of that money is gone - spent on too many employees, company expenses, previous project overruns, and increased costs from lockdowns on completed projects that were not passed on to backers. They probably have enough left to keep the company afloat for a few years, but there is no money to manufacture and ship their games. Backers will have to "contribute" to pay those two costs if they want their games. There were plenty of lies while they raised money on later projects to feed their ponzi scheme, and they did little work on the newer games. They couldn't be bothered to work on simple projects like Monsterpocalypse and Rise of the Necromancers, even though they could have quickly produced and sent to retail for new revenue. Darkest Dungeon backers are going to get a contribution email for wave 2, almost certainly before we see the results of 6: Siege. It will be a tough choice for them whether they want to risk more money.

[@PRC533]

This pretty much sums up the most likely series of events based on what we know.

[@hw8991]

A few years, sounds very long to me considering the huge % they asked for over the initial pledges of Siege 6. I think they are at the brink...

[@davidautinify]

regarding extra shipping costs for DD, they explicitly said they would not be asking backers for more shipping funds from the folks who paid the extra shipping costs for wave 1. whether we can trust that statement is the (literal) million dollar question, of course.

[@PRC533]

They said they wouldn't ask for extra shipping, they didn't say anything about more money for manufacturing.

[@CheddahSlammer]

They specifically stated extra shipping costs, not base shipping costs. Wave 2 shipping base costs haven't been paid yet. All the statement they made says is they won't charge us twice for wave 2, that's it.

[@nanorider426]

I'm thinking of Golden Bell here when you talk of games held ransom. Remember "Unbroken"?

[@flipz101]

Don’t forget they raised $1.3m for Monsterpocalypse as well!

[@jayceh1031]

That is what this industry is ... over promise and under deliver. And in MG's case, grossly over promise and extort. Why this type of business practice is tolerated in the board game industry is a real head scratcher.

[@ViscountCharles]

The only other place you can get away with such crappy deivery on promises is Government contracts in the UK.

[@AvgKsHunter]

I didn’t go for the attempted extortion and cut my loss for Siege. Also put my name on the miles long list for a refund but I know I’ll never get it. As a result, I’m done with KS games. I won’t get bit twice.

[@JoeMama-do8dx]

If you paid with a credit card, you can request a chargeback. Tell your creditor that you did not receive goods that you were promised.

[@hw8991]

You made the right choice cutting Siege, I don't trust these Mythic guys at all. They seem to see their business as a playground. However, I don't think you have to stop backing all crowdfunding, as there are serious actors there too. But I fully understand your decision.

[@Tchousssman54]

Crowdfunding is a really strange market myfriend, built on FOMO for most of it and promises. But I invite you on the second hand market, cheaper, more stable, and furhtermore based on products that DO exists. The key here is just to be patient. But there are already a tons of games that exist. For DD I’m waiting for it on the second hand market. If it comes good for me, if not, life goes on.

[@AvgKsHunter]

@@JoeMama-do8dx possibly but KS terms and conditions are pretty explicit this is not a guarantee to receive what you paid for. May work and will look into this more. Thanks

[@robertpollock7995]

Most cards have a limit to how long they will look back for a chargeback. Heck, when i looked into mine, they told me that i didn't have any charges before realizing that it was just their records stopped at 1 year.@@JoeMama-do8dx

[@69mpaice]

Excellent video. Thanks Liege. But don't forget Hel the Last Saga!

[@darrenwoodman6656]

Fully, $2,500,000 pledged, where has all the HEL money gone? Will we get HEL around 2027? Would also love some feedback on that for sure.

[@successfulgeek]

I didn't back DD or Six Siege... backed Hel before those ever came to crowdfunding... there is no hope here at this point...

[@LK_LOBO29]

That's why I bought Times of Legends Joan of Arc (1.0 & 1.5) all-in on the secondary market. I just waited long enough to find a great offer 😅 Mythic Games will never see my money. And I'm supporting Monolith Board Games - always buying all-ins and always receiving games! 👍

[@haxan6663]

I was a very positive supporter of Mythic Games. I had backed Hel, with no development info for months. Then I foolishly gave Mythic $636 for Anastyr, a game I now know that they had little intention of completing ? I watched the extortion for Darkest Dungeon and 6 Siege. I bought DD, for less, from a retailer. Cheap postage and no ransom. I now wait for a refund on Hel and Anastyr, which I doubt that I will ever see? On Gamefound Mythic state that Hel is "completely finished". I would suggest that this is a complete lie and the only thing that is completely finished in this scenario is Mythic Games?! When you lose trust and credibility with your customer base, you cease to exist. No-one will ever back a Mythic game again.

[@eriklindqvist9923]

They said up front the first time that they were going to ask for more shipping again when wave 2 of Darkest Dungeon was getting closer to ship, from the remaining language backers. This due to them asking only the english language backers for wave 1 including uofront for wave 2, as wave 1 was for english language backers only. So other language backers still haven't gotten their possibilty to pay their extra shipping.

[@sigepohio]

It is now obvious that all of their campaigns from Hel on have been for games that were no where near ready for production. They were raising money for ideas and using that money to keep the ship afloat while actually developing the games from previous campaigns. Hel was on KS prior to any of the other open Mythic campaigns and it is likely last in line to finish. Too late now, but they should have partnered with someone or asked for money sooner on these projects. It may have prevented the shit show they are going through now trying to just complete one campaign at a time while also using that game to help fund development on the next campaign to finish (while also still asking for more money from backers). Asking for refunds is a waste of time. They are still in mid 2022 on processing refund requests. They will either deliver or go out of business prior to you getting a refund if you request now.

[@CheddahSlammer]

I would argue that the problem is the opposite, most of the other games are more complete then Hel is. Hel is the only game out of all of them that is Narrative Driven campaign game with multiple branching pathways. In one of the updates even before all the shit hit the fan, they said they were starting from scratch with Hell. So while Hell was on kickstarter before the others, the others are easier to make. Six Siege is basically a tactile squad game, and just needs good mechanics. Much easier then writing a book, that has multiple points in which you book can change.

[@hw8991]

​@@CheddahSlammer Or, if one take a pessimistic angle, they say they're starting from scratch with Hel to postpone the completion of that project to whenever they want. It is a complex type of game to complete, as you say too, and therefore it's the first natural choice for them to axe. I want people to get their games but it's looking dire in my book.

[@CheddahSlammer]

@@hw8991 You may be right, however If you have hope, it might end up like a Kingdom Death gamblers chest situation, were it just takes forever to even get it. Lets say they deliver 6 siege, then they gain more trust back, resulting in more retail sales. The more projects they deliver the more hope their is of seeing Hel.

[@Tchousssman54]

One final point is we are talking about boardgames here. A hobby, fun, and good time. So much bad energy and hated, and resentment about it that when it gonna hit your table its gonna be mix feeling

[@yshtolarhul3055]

I did a late pledge for Rise of the Necromancers in March '22, only because it said it would be delivered by Sept/Oct. Months rolled by, Mythic fell apart. Then finally, the last update they bothered to give for RotN, was in February '23, talking about how far along they were in production and all that, then nothing but dead silence while we wait on DD and R6 to sort out, then -maybe- RotN backers will have a turn.

[@IronSalamander8]

I backed Monpoc at a high level and wished that I had listened to the nagging doubt in the back of my mind and canceled before the end of the campaign. But I have played the current miniature version and liked it enough to buy a ton of it, so thought it would be nice to have larger data cards, 4-player expansion, and so on, so stayed in. They've really screwed this all up so I put in for a refund back in March of this year, but they keep posting that they're still slowly refunding people from July 21st of 2022, and have been saying so since at least March of this year, so I'm not expecting much. I'm so done with it in fact, that I sold my ton of Monpoc stuff to Noble Knight games, and have a ton more shelf space now! I fully expect Mythic to fold after fulfilling 6 Siege, if they even do that. The demands for refunds on their projects drown out everything else, even with some converting their pledges to store credit to get SOMETHING from all this insanity. PG also messed up royally, and I'm not excusing them, but at least I have my Cthulhu Wars stuff now, barring the misprint correction pack and my Invasion faction. I've given up on Hyperspace and regret backing it, but that one wasn't as much. I'm going to sell CW now as the whole situation left me disillusioned with the game, even if we used to play it a ton, I just want to wash my hands of Mythic and PG for good. Those who know PG and Catalyst are stating that Catalyst is not going to make things any better! So, while I'm still backing games, since most have been much better than these, these situations are exactly why I skip so many big box games, and especially with games sold on the minis and with companies with multiple outstanding projects. It hurts honest projects a lot, and it stinks that we have these bad campaigns that harm the genuine ones as people understandably get a bit gun-shy after these experiences.

[@michaelturner6358]

I put in for my refund last October…I have not received any money yet.

[@SirReasoner]

Honestly, Leo needs to go to the bank and take out a personal loan. We ended paying for his wage and his team and rent for his house and studio for the past 2 years. And then we pay for production and shipping again. Dude needs to take out a loan and deliver them.

[@alexzlayer1808]

Man i backed the first joan time of legends, and after that i knew what was coming and avoided them like a plague. Was sad DD was picked up by them since i love the video game. Did back time of legend expansion but was a low bullet i decided to risk, and even them lost money on the rpg book even back then

[@dankone1289]

Sounding more and more like Blacklist Games.

[@DF-we4pt]

I backed Hel and this update does not make me feel good

[@djangofett4879]

if shipping costs are down, it isnt reflected in some recent gamefound pledge managers. shipping is painfully high! 🤕

[@PRC533]

the problem is that creators don't distinguish between freight (the boat from China to hubs) and last mile shipping (hub to your house). The last mile costs have continued to rise while the container costs for freight have normalized. Crowdfunded games are the only kind where consumers are required to shoulder freight costs and its kind of unreal.

[@hw8991]

​@@PRC533 What do you mean? Consumers are always, no matter the product, required to pay for everything of the development, production, and shipping if purchasing the product. Freight cost is not a cost that disappears somewhere between before shipping and delivery.

[@PRC533]

No it's not a cost that disappears, It's an overhead cost borne by the company up front. They can't sell any units until those units physically make it to their customers. Kickstarter allows companies to transfer that cost directly to their backers. You can say all day long "well it's just included in the price" but that's not exactly how it works because they still need to front the money for freight to begin with and the price is set based on what the market will pay, not what it cost them to make and ship.@@hw8991

[@obsidiansiriusblackheart]

9:06 $150 on shipping for a $300 pledge? I WISH it was that cheap for me here in South Africa. Tanares Adventures wave 2 alone is $180 shipping for me 😢

[@jasond3871]

I have my doubts about anyone receiving anything else. Finally paid the extra shipping and did get my initial darkest dungeon stuff. In Canada here that all in shipping runs close to$100 Canadian.😢 Feel like a fool being almost $800 in for something I could have bought at retail for 200.

[@davidrobertson1595]

The only thing I think people who paid more the second time around for 6 siege is that say things don’t happen they took the money outside of KS and can now be held legally responsible and don’t have KS terms to hide behind. But who knows I’m just telling myself that to help me sleep at night

[@jamierufe]

I backed Rise of the Necromancers (was not familiar with Mythic's reputation at that point) and the unfortunate thing is you hardly ever hear RofN even mentioned amongst the Mythic crowdfunding backlog. I've just accepted I probably will never see that game. It's a bummer because I was quite looking forward to it!

[@siturl5834]

Bought that on sale from a retailer a couple of years ago for £22. I’m not sure how they get away with what they do.

[@PRC533]

The last it was mentioned, RotN was supposedly in line right after DD wave 2. Quite a few things have changed since then though so I will believe it when I have it in my hands.

[@marcnno6323]

First in the sequence was HEL the last saga. Still not delivered. Why would they deliver Darkest Dungeon or Anastyr?

[@haxan6663]

Darkest Dungeon has priority due to the IP. Not that I expect them to deliver on anything at this stage?!

[@PRC533]

Darkest Dungeon, Rise of the Necromancers and Monsterpocalypse are licensed titles and they are probably obligated by contract to actually produce them or face consequences. This is why they won't produce their own titles until the licensed ones are done.

[@CheddahSlammer]

Easier to make. With Hel you need to make a Narrative with branching pathways. DD already has finished Narrative by the IP. Anastyr is actually last on their list they gave. When you have these large Narrative Campaign type games they take much longer to make because your basically writing a Novel along with a game.

[@haxan6663]

​@CheddahSlammer takes even longer when the company is economical with the truth? Mythic implied that Hel was much further along in development, than it actually was. They sold an idea and not a game.

[@nimblegoat]

some people are ahead with 6 Siege - they sold the skins on Ebay for $300 plus - so rest is kind of jam

[@holysmoke8439]

They got it for 135$ at miniature market...but the mintures r too cartonish n cheap looking for that price

[@GI-JOEs]

Exactly 💯

[@TheGriever66]

I’m cutting of my losses, hel and Dd. There is no ransom if my Game is not even produced😢

[@itsMARTIKAI]

They are gonna ask for more money if you backed Anastyr or Monsterpacolypse. Because that money went into Darkest Dungeon and R6 Siege.

[@azarhielsombrelame5659]

Concerning the production of R6, the key word that was important was MINIMUM. If they said we hit 350% of minimum, backers had to read 350% of MOQ. If the MOQ of the company that produce R6 is 1000, then the contrivbution raised enough to produce 3500 copies of the game. They also said that those that have not paid their contribution will recieve nothing becaus they won't produce for free. In that case, it is not a sunken cost fallacy, those that did not pay will have nothing. Also, speaking of refunds, they have stopped refunding money because they don't have any. If they aggressively sold their IP's and left overs of their board games it is because they don't have money and that sales money was to only way to stay alive. Last time i read the news about teh refunds, the little money thay have goes to backers that asked for a refund more than one year ago.

[@davidlewis5312]

what did the backers get for their original pledge than in R6? or are you just a bloody shill?

[@azarhielsombrelame5659]

@@davidlewis5312 I'm not an R6 backer, but Mythic was pretty clear that backers that did not pay the contribution will not get their game (aka not being produced). The game in "production" (white sample phase) and will not ship for many month. I don't know how mythic will solve it or face the backlash when backers will finally understabd what Mythic meant by "350% of minimal production"... For me there is no other way to interpret what Mythic said. On a side note, no i'm not a bloody shill, but i won't cry because i might have lost money on a crowdfunding project that has risks (Yes, i'm still a Mythic Backer for another project). When i back a game, i always consider the money lost until i get the game at my doorstep.

[@noneyafkn]

3 letters. F MG

[@argy8141]

Love your comment about the truth. A divorce lawyer once told me, there's her truth, there's your truth and then there's the real truth!!

[@Tchousssman54]

And dont forget Monsterpocalypse 😂😅😢

[@UKDagnar]

No longer able to launch a crowdfunding project to be able to fund the previous project (Ponzi scheme anyone?) is why they have no choice but to keep asking for more money from backers. They're dead in the water and the only question is how many projects will ship before they finally sink below the waterline. No one would be crazy enough to ever back one of their projects again after this.

[@PRC533]

I think you overestimate people. I am fairly certain all they would have to do is pick up a semi-popular IP and the lemmings would flock to their project. The issue is getting that license for them right now because no self-respecting business would collaborate with them.

[@Gossul]

What they are doing with the translated versions has no name: Joan of Arc 1.5 they promised the Spanish version in PDF. They never did it Siege 6. It was going to be translated into Spanish. In the end they ask for more money and only PDF. Darkest Dungeon: The translation was done by one of the most prestigious companies in Spain: Maldito Games. In the end they ask for more money and only PDF translation. Maldito Games is not interested in kickstarer. HEL: It was also going to be translated. We will never see this game. There have been multiple deceptions. Translations that don't exist, payments for shipping and payments for production that doesn't exist. It is devastating the helplessness that thousands of people who have backed them feel.

[@edwardbrost331]

There is a sucker born every minute.

[@DF-we4pt]

What’s worse, if they are robbing Peter to pay Paul, at what cost? I will never back another mythic game on KS. So what’s it all for if you gonna shit the bed?

[@CheddahSlammer]

People are still going to bite the cookie. Look at Steamforged games. Everyone was talking about how much they suck because of Dark Souls the Board game, but now people back their projects over and over, and they are considered trustworthy.

[@CheddahSlammer]

The reason everything is taking so long is because they have less people working for them. At one point they had 100 people or more, I heard their reduced down to 25 people. Lets say Six Siege was mostly done, well it still takes longer to finish it with 25 people apposed to 100 people. The other issue is manufacturing being in china. China still has major outbreaks of Covid, and when they do so they just shut down. I had games delayed by 6 months just because China shut down. The issue I have with many backers is, they just have no patience, hope, and assumptions without proof. A good chunk of people commenting under mythic when DD asked for more money just assumed we were not getting the game. Yet we did. I am sorry but I would rather cling onto hope that I will get my other games then assume that were never going to get them. It isn't Stockholm syndrome, its simple math. Holy Grail Games is proof of this. Couldn't pay the shipping cost, couldn't bare to ask backers for more money for the shipping, so went bankrupt. So everyone that backed is in the hole and never will see the game. So spend more money and possibly get my game and my original money back, or get nothing. Personalty I pick spend more. I feel like many feel like we should all give up and get nothing. I get it that people don't have money to spend more, but then I question why they buy such big games in the first place.

[@hw8991]

I fail to see the full logic of your reasoning. It's not simple math as nobody but Mythic themselves know how close they are to going bankrupt. The risk is high that people spend more money on something they already spent a considerable sum on, and then Mythic still goes bankrupt somewhere before they deliver the game. And then backers have not only spent the initial cost for the game and shipping, but also half that sum again, which are lost forever. We don't have proof of the outcome of the situation but it is incorrect to disregard clear indications of major problems with the project and the company that promises this and that. Also I would like to add that people that spend money on boardgames could have saved that money over quite some time so that they can buy one quality game. There is a limit for budgets somewhere for each individual and organisation. Mythic, now as a fact, does not have a healthy grasp of this.

[@CheddahSlammer]

@@hw8991 Like you said Mythic has the numbers, however if they are as close to going bankrupt as people say, then they would have already went bankrupt. Mythic even says their not out, and are going to deliver on all their projects, just that their going to be really late. Why string people along when they can simply cut their loses, by going bankrupt. I'll go back to Holy Grail Games, they state that they can't get enough money to ship their outstanding project, and that they can't ask backers to pay for the shipping they owe, and that the only option is to cut their loses and go bankrupt. The company is then given to a liquidator, who is in charge of distributing all assets of the company. This does not include all kickstarter backers because, their backing is considered a gift not an investment. If Mythic was really bad off they would have went bankrupt already based on the numbers, without any real consequence to themselves, however instead they are constantly saying they will finish all their projects. The Major problems being when we get them. If Six Siege delivers in 6 months, how far out are their bigger games. Factor 2 they did deliver on DD Wave 1 to people who gave more money. Showing that they aren't as bad off and are capable of delivering what they promised. While I acknowledged their is a risk for paying more money, for me the risk is no different then any kickstarter campaign. We spend money on games all the time, and honestly based on the nature of kickstarter, these companies could just drop and never give us anything. I do get your last point about saving up for a game. However that would imply that these people were only saving for one game. However you see these same people in the comments on every mythic project, meaning despite the risk, they still backed all of mythic projects. Some even sound desperate, with one individual saying they needed the refund now to pay their rent, and other saying Mythic is stealing their grocery money when asked to pay a fee. While it sucks the situation their in, shouldn't they have saved up for something else that keeps them afloat. Their is just something wrong, when people say, I barely can afford food, but I spent 400$ on a game.

[@n815e]

This company was always problematic. Always selling assets, firing people and making poor hiring choices, not paying their bills, releasing poor and messy products, running projects to pay for other projects. Since inception. Fired their entire English staff on Christmas, just to hire a worthless replacement. And Leo’s former company was also a problem.

[@hw8991]

This Leo dude always comes across as seeing his area of work a playground.

[@rgsniper2]

I totally agree that Mythic Games are a disgusting company that have done their supporters very very wrong. With that said, there are a handful of people on the KS comments section for Siege 6 that are just as bad or worse in their own way. If you are someone who just wants your game, you're basically dehumanized and probably should be in fear for your life based on how some of the other backers speak to you. Disgusting community that I'm sad to say I was a part of.

[@ewenneiertz8362]

Where are the 7 millions missing from all the collected money ?

[@RiHa_Games]

✂️

[@djangofett4879]

is this a big Lebowski reference?

[@FreeRangeDice]

KZbin channels did this, including yours. There should be no previews, no endorsements, no hype, no native advertising, or any other type of coverage for KS or other crowdfunded games. Another example: Mythic Mischief. That game got hyped like crazy by all the channels until the campaign ended. Then, nothing. No top 10 lists, no end-of-year lists, and few playthroughs. Now, another campaign and we have all the channels gushing about what a great game it is. This activity harms the hobby. If you want this to be fixed, stop covering pre-sale games. You won’t because it pays big money. That’s the problem. Your career, and all other KZbinrs, is tied to selling these campaigns. Also, this applies to gamers - STOP PAYING FOR GAMES THAT DON’T EXIST.

[@JoeMama-do8dx]

Cut the losses with mythic. Do not allow this business to continue with these abhorrent practices. Request a chargeback and be done with it.

[@Schlagathor78]

Hel is a dead game imo. It's the oldest game in their backlog of fulfillments with no end in sight

[@Urek968]

Which is such a shame the game looks so cool and unique. The worst part is that mythic makes good games. If these were some cmon zombicide style games I wouldn't care that much if I didn't get them but I want hel and darkest dungeon wave 2.

[@thecuriousboardgamer]

I requested a refund for Hel over a year ago (Aug 4, 2022), they replied on Sept 26 that I'd be added to the queue. Nothing since then.

[@jabbawookeez01]

you are talking about six siege and darkest dungeon... 🤣 wait for monsterpocolypse. they have to wait till AFTER these games get sent...THEN its starting production. dont get me wrong... you are talking about these 2 board games but what about MP tho? its fucked

[@PRC533]

There's also Rise of the Necromancers, which they ran on Gamefound.

[@itsMARTIKAI]

And Anastyr

[@MultiArashA]

Mythic is scam