The (objectively correct) Support Company Tierlist

[@sumzer_0]

In hindsight i would probably change the tierlist slightly. Here are the following changes and reasoning behind them: Signal Company from D to C-tier. Signal is a bit more used than i was aware of. It its still pretty useful, especially in scenarios where you want an org wall, without doing mass assault. I still think most people overestimate the impact of inititiative, especially to coordination. Military Police from F to E-tier. There are still some use cases with military police, especially later in the game when you are overflowing with army XP. Also there is a funny thing you can do military police with very special circumstances, where it is actually viable for combat. Still, not that useful. Proper usage for resistance requires a minimum of 80 xp

[@JDothan]

How do you get 80xp? It’s 45 - 35 to take proper heritage, and 10 to add the MP to the giant cav div you make.

[@sumzer_0]

@@JDothan 35 to take proper heritage. 10 for MP. 35 to swap off proper heritage. 35 + 10 + 35 = 80

[@JDothan]

@@sumzer_0 if you’re going to do it, you take proper heritage as your first spirit - otherwise not worth it and don’t even bother IMO

[@redstonehero7944]

MP does have a very niche use. putting MP on a 50w cav division let’s you use significantly less manpower to control resistance. In the case where you’re already at service by requirement or all adults serve and have no manpower, it’s a good way to stall a bit longer before going to scraping the barrel. Although tbf, field hospitals would’ve prevented this situation entirely

[@ozyaba]

Engineer and maintenance company got robbed again 😭😭😭

[@sumzer_0]

Sad times... But i do believe a lot of people overestimate them.

[@tenanaciouz]

@@sumzer_0 as somebody who has experimented with many support companies I find engineer really is overrated unless you're playing a very defensive game.

[@ozyaba]

@@tenanaciouz Engineer is not for defensive purposes, it is mainly used for terrain boosts. Like motorized recon.

[@tenanaciouz]

@@ozyaba entrenchment matters for Defense. Im aware of the offense bonuses but you're smoking crack if you're going to tell me it's not also used for defending

[@tomasdariuspaun7586]

​@@ozyaba or medium flame tanks. I out them on any offensive unit

[@t3w3shd16]

i personally love field hospitals, for me personally they are S tier. They safe MP AND you loose lesss XP, so your veterancy stays higher for bettter stat boosts!

[@JDothan]

And save equipment because higher HP means less strength damage

[@otten5666]

Too bad it doesn't improve grammar.

[@Zack_Wester]

There is another Boon for the Field Hospital. and that is in HOI4 when a solder becomes a casulty (dies) the div loses his rifle. now medic for some reason in this game when they drag the casulties away as long as its allive so to say they also grab what ever equipment they held whit a close to 100% recovery rate. maintanence company have at best a 40% chance to recover a dead soldiers equipment. from what I heard someone else said this also includes tanks.

[@AceofSpades511]

Not to mention it helps protect your war support later in the game

[@TheFirstMantoDie]

BUT an actual best feature of Field Hospitals is the "Smug Sense of Moral Superiority"

[@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja]

MP does let you save 40% of your manpower and equipment. It doesn't matter for a major. But for minors with severe manpower problems it is very good. Excellent even.

[@sumzer_0]

That isnt really true. Watch this video here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/npDVmaSOf9yAldk The reason i put it so low is that it costs so much XP and research for smal benefits.

[@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja]

@@sumzer_0 It is true that I save equipment and manpower. The video literally says that "if you use cavalry, you should use MP" For me, it's looking at my current situation. If I have the production to build a few tens of thousands of light tanks, I won't bother with MP. But usually, I don't have that kind of production.

[@sumzer_0]

@@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja I never argued that it didnt save equipment and manpower. Yeah thats fair. But i dont think he considered the army XP at all (he mentions it, but doesnt use it to weigh if its worth it or not). Research is also a problem. He uses MP 2, which requires researching 2 techs, that couldve been spent on something else. Yeah, its still up to yourself. I probably shouldve put it in E-tier in hindsight, max D-tier. I still dont think it is actually that good.

[@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja]

@@sumzer_0 It's situationally good. So low D or high E sounds logical. There's also the fact that once you're at the point that you're spending considerable amounts of manpower on resistance, you probably already have maxed out your army doctrine, so what else are you going to spend the xp on?

[@sumzer_0]

@@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja yeah i agree. Although if you do really struggle with manpower, i think light tanks are better. But i still see MP having a purpose late game.

[@NapoleonPicard]

I guess I see your point with maintenance company. I always research it because the 2nd level gives you easy maintenance on tanks, which is my fav attachment to get.

[@Pigga-k8k]

Easy maintenance is chad af

[@BigDonkEnergy]

Me feeling like an idiot, thinking only light tanks could be flame tanks!

[@kacperixplayer]

It was like that, when it came up. I also forgot that in x patch they added that.

[@蔡林翰-v2m]

Now you know, Knowing is half battles

[@Dedelblute3]

11:39 This is the one reason I put these on my offensive divisions. Getting reinforce memed out of a winning battle is incredibly frustrating and the reinforce rate means I can more effectively use my reserves. Unrelated note: Rocket Artillery is unlocked in 1940. That’s honestly pretty early for most games, and it has a better soft attack (which is better against AI), so it really shouldn’t be that low compared to regular sup. Artillery.

[@sumzer_0]

Rocket Artillery has worse soft attack than artillery. Especially earlier on, when you dont have the upgrades. The tierlist also takes into account that it is harder to get rocket artillery, which is part of the reason why it is 2 entire ranks below.

[@Dedelblute3]

@@sumzer_0 I thought it had more? Last time I played I literally replaced artillery for rockets and it increased soft attack. Also again, how is rocket artillery so much “harder to get” that it needed to be two ranks below artillery? You research it in 1940 and it’s about as expensive as regular artillery (which is pretty cheap anyways)

[@sumzer_0]

@@Dedelblute3 Its 1940 research, but you also need the 1940 artillery upgrade. Since you probably start producing it around 1940, you will also have really bad production efficiency on it. Basically, you wont have enough for your army until much later. You probably played very late game, which is when rocket artillery is slightly stronger. Probably before 1944 artillery is just better.

[@Dedelblute3]

@@sumzer_0 The stats difference between base Rocket Artillery and regular Artillery is both tiny and in favor of Rocket Artillery. They are practically equal, and in terms of production they are both insanely cheap. 48 production cost per division. (Some individual tanks and planes cost more than that! Literally all ships you can build cost more than that). Rocket Artillery doesn’t deserve to get 2 (arguably 3 tiers) less than it deserves. It doesn’t even have to be higher than Artillery, they are both very good support companies.

[@sumzer_0]

@@Dedelblute3 The stat difference is not tiny. Without any MIOs or doctrine, support artillery gives 24 soft attack (1940 tech) and support rocket artillery gives 15. That is 60% more soft attack. No one would argue that 60% is "tiny". Even with doing all research in the artillery tree, support artillery still has more soft attack. They both cost the same, but due to unlocking rocket artillery later, you will struggle with it a lot more. There are not a lot of situations where you would put rocket artillery into a lot of divisions. That is why it is "so much" lower.

[@YeahILoveTea]

also i like how u talk about sp and mp, very good detail

[@ScaleZenzi]

Was surprised how good of an analysis this actually was, breath of fresh air. Would love to see some more optimal division type guides, as well as planes and navy etc

[@mikewazowski7024]

I had no idea about the field hospital buff. Stuff like this is why I watch you. Thanks for the video!

[@otten5666]

Very nice list, I still prefer the pioneers over the engineers because even though engineers have more stats in total I prefer the larger river attack bonus that pioneers give. In combination with medium flames on tank divisions rivers become very easy to cross.

[@sumzer_0]

Pioneers start with 10% attack on rivers, but after engineers 3 research, they have equal river bonus. Engineers gives defense bonuses on a lot of stuff that pioneers dont, which is why its better in most scenarios.

[@otten5666]

@@sumzer_0 Good to know, I guess the only thing the pioneers have going for them then is the bigger amphibious (or jungle) bonus. But I understand why the Engineers are ranked higher, especially since they cost less support equipment.

[@alpharius6206]

@@sumzer_0 swamp attack bonus though pioneers are good for offensive divs engineers for defense divs

[@doodooman45]

@@alpharius6206 its jungle attack, not swamp attack, swamp attack is debatably good for a barb tank, unless you are in south America or are in china which is already easy to cap, there is no reason for it, amphibious bonus is really good for landing divs obviously

[@JDothan]

19:21 should mention that hard attack literally does not matter in Single Player, even AI tank divs barely have any hardness

[@sumzer_0]

Which is why i specify: "especially ones that have [high] hard attack". The stats it gives is still pretty decent on its own, and still gives the recon bonuses like the speed, without having to do any paratrooper doctrine like airborne light armour.

[@reventon_4442]

You have such high quality content with only 1K subs? That is wild. With just this video I improved so much in gameplay

[@szymonrozanski6938]

Radio for me is S++ Coordination is underrated. It also gives reinforcement.

[@edgarcarlosromero1552]

You dont know that the signal company also increases ground support factor from Tacticals and CAS, also have a bonus to artillery, is for all these minibonuses that the signal company can be a good support company if you have a lot of resources, increasing a lot the performance of every division that have it

[@sumzer_0]

Signal company does not increase ground support. Signal company does not have a bonus to artillery. Signal company only gives initiative (as an effect that is more than negligible).

[@jarvee9407]

@@sumzer_0 Its not, the initiative is in a lot of scenarion more than the soft attack you get from artillery support (atleast in single player), you can get to your battles faster and nuke enemy divisions before they reinforce, at certain breakpoints you will just overrun the enemy which is the most efficent way of killing divisions or pushing tiles. Should be used on any division you will use for offense and even on defence it can save you from getting overruns.

[@sumzer_0]

@@jarvee9407 initiative does not give attack. Coordination, which it does give, increases how much of the attack is targeted towards a specific division. This is helpful for critting, but is technically counterproductive for reinforce memeing. This is because the enemy units will retreat at different times, meaning the enemy has a larger window to reinforce in. Initiative does not increase speed, and does not increase your chance to overrun in any way other than the possibility of critting.

[@jarvee9407]

@@sumzer_0 its better than the soft attack from atillery company. With high initiative you will get into battle faster which means more attacks into fewer enemy divisions at certain point it becomes so broken for ai that you can overrun enemy divisions with infantry/mountaners. Lets say you get two divisions into battle against one of enemys divisions you gonna nuke them into oblivion and if they dont reinforce fast (which ai wont) you overrun them. Lets say that normal battles take 10 ticks (unit has to attack 10 times to deorg enemy) if iniative would give you just one attack in this case you attack 11times compared to enemy who will attak 10 (or even less) hence you have will be pushing more divisions out of the way, sometimes you can even get overruns. I have seen 4 mountaneers overruning 13 soviet divisions with entrenchment no problem, but they struggled once I removed the signal company. It is by far the best company for offence.

[@sumzer_0]

@@jarvee9407 i believe what you are thinking about is for battleplanning. Then yes, signal company is really good for battleplanning. If you micro, none of the things you are talking about matters. Reinforce rate does still help yes, but not in the way you are describing.

[@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja]

Different supports give different amounts of org. Their base orgs are: 0 org AA Artillery Anti-tank Rocket artillery 10 org Logistical 20 org Cavalry recon Armored recon Motorised recon Armored car recon Engineer Maintenance Pioner Air tank Field hospitals Signals Flame 40 org Rangers The Finnish supports have weirdly good org Winter Logistics have 45 org and Long recon has 60 This is extra good as you can get +10 org from the focus tree and +20 org from doctrines.

[@DrewPicklesTheDark]

Field hospitals always seem to be polarizing for people. I personally love them, they help the war support late game a bit, save on weapons, the HP, etc. and as someone who plays a lot of minors, I find them almost mandatory in countries that have manpower issues, but good enough industry to support them (which with all the recent buffs minors with DLC have gotten, isn't that hard since you have tons of "Give 5+ factories" focuses). For a country like the USSR or US they aren't very useful though.

[@andriaqardava3766]

I think the airborne tank should go to S tier cause the parateoopers are really useful now, halving your enemies org is already broken enough, but that 75 breakthrough on a paratrooper just breaks anything rhe ai has

[@thepowerofsand6180]

Lowkey I only love Maintenance because of the Eq capture. Its fun to look at my divisons at the end of the campaign and see what equipment they end up with

[@flameguy3416]

I love using field hospital because I despise seeing my divisions lose xp. From veteran to regular ffs.

[@SonOfNone]

*_This_* is the gem I was looking for. Great breakdown and analysis!

[@JDothan]

22:53 Jesus, but it limits your speed to the speed of cav… anyone watching, don’t put rangers in your tank divs 🤣

[@sumzer_0]

Situations where you need to push mountains often dont require lots of speed. You can also switch it in and out if you really want to.

[@JDothan]

@@sumzer_0 but you shouldn’t be using tanks in mountains anyway, use 25W mountaineers then, I’ve never had an issue pushing

[@sumzer_0]

@@JDothan there are some situations where you do need tanks in mountains, where mountaineers arent enough.

[@burgerenjoyer2982]

​@@sumzer_0Tanks lose like all their bonuses in mountains man. At that poijt you'd be relying on cas if 25W rangers aren't getting it done

[@dajeziii]

​@@sumzer_0ahahaha wtf tank in Mont? Aahahahahahaha my god

[@Polo004xD]

1. Disagree with support AA, if Air situation is bad enough to warrant an AA company, you probably want an AA battalion anyways.. (though would still put A tier). AA battalion is 1 CW unlike artillery which is 3CW. But support company offers about half the battalion's stats. So if you need both soft attack and AA and have to pick 1 for the company, most of the time t'll be easier to cram in an AA battalion CW-wise 2. Engineer S-tier + number 1 spot hands down even for offense (because terrain bonuses, not just entrenchment), with every tech upgrade it becomes more essential. 3. Recon also S-tier. 4. Logistics S-tier, but only if you can afford it (since you need trucks and oil, plus it only gets worth it with tech once you get tier 3/4), + early game frontlines/supplies are less saturated and therefore it's less necessary - so I guess A tier is fair given it's not always viable

[@sumzer_0]

Thats not how AA works. In the video i explained how increasing the amount of air attack doesnt really help. It only shoots down more plains. AA battalion is bad because it increases combat width, has a higher cost, without really adding anything more than the support company would. Engineer is really good on large divisions, but on cheaper line infantry, its just too expensive to be justifiable. Which i explain in the video. Recon is not S-Tier lol. Logi is strong yes, but not always useful as you explained yourself.

[@Polo004xD]

@@sumzer_0 IIRC you need AA battalions anyways to substantially reduce air superiority penalty to defence/breakthrough Besides on topic of killing CAS high enemy CAS losses from high AA attack can wipe enemy CAS wings + stockpile in a few battles It's 1 combat width, you're rarely screwing yourself too much with this 1 combat width extra

[@Polo004xD]

@@sumzer_0 I'm kind of saying yes AA company is great, but if you have to pick between an arty vs AA company I'd lean in ffavour of arty one and just consider an AA battalion

[@sumzer_0]

@@Polo004xD The difference in air attack is only 20%. While the cost is 50%. The difference in air superiority reduction is only a few percent. You would need a lot of AA to kill CAS. Simply upgrading the support AA is most effective way of doing so. Any extra AA battalions would reduce org even further, and increase combat width. Infantry shouldnt really have line AA, since they are usually only meant to hold the line. Other quality divisions like special forces and tanks have other stuff that is so powerful that adding line AA would have a large enough negative impact on the stats. You will still see motorized AA in some situations on tanks tho. Support AA is still the best support company, since it can do so much at such a cheap cost.

[@LeviDoek15]

Thank you very much for these video's! Always fun to learn and hear about HOI4

[@BaseDeltaZero1972]

I'm a casual HOI4 player (read not very good). I've been locked into 7/2s and 14/4s forever. I'm going to give pure line infantry with my arty and the other suggested units as support units instead. I tried Space Marines in the past, but I've always based them on a 6/2/1 (inf/arty/tank), so I was probably doing it wrong (or not maxing the benefits of them). The 7/2s will blitz through most armies early game, but after 1940 or thereabouts, I struggle with them. I also thought MP units were absolutely essential for my suppression cavalry and coastal defence forces, I will give it a try without them. Watched all four of your vids and found them all useful on varying levels.👍

[@ballisticpug6764]

Ah man, I know they’re exclusive to Finland, but I woulda liked to have heard your thoughts on those ones.

[@MihailoPetrovic-m6f]

I would say that I overall agree with almost everything in this tier list except cavalry recon. I think it deserves a higher stop on the list. From my understandin (I could be wrong about this) having a higher recon value than your opponent is equivalent to increasesing your general's skill by 5 which is huge for how the tactics mechanics work. This will basically assure that on average you have better tactics than your opponent and it makes you more likely to counter their tactics. Whats neat is that the divisions with recon provide recon value even when in reserve. Considering how cheap recon companies are this is very significant, especially if your opponent has no recon. What I like to do is to give every fourth line infantry division a recon company and assure that I have better tactics than my opponent. And it would only cost me 300 support equipment to supply an entire army group.

[@sumzer_0]

I see your point, but i dont think you really know how tactics work. Higher recon only increases your chance of picking a counter, NOT just a better tactic. This means you are completely reliant on your opponent having a tactic to be counterable (most arent) and that you have that counter. This can help on picking counters on the defense, but in reality is a very small difference. Also doing every fourth line division is a very smart strategy, however is super micro-intensive. Watch her for more information: kzbin.info/www/bejne/q5K8cp9urZdsoMk

[@MihailoPetrovic-m6f]

@@sumzer_0 thank you for your input, I knew it was too good to be true :). I admit, I only do this in singleplayer when I feel like larping. Still, I feel like its so cheap that there is no reason not to do it, even though it may not be very useful, if you have some spare support equipment, why not do it?

[@sumzer_0]

@@MihailoPetrovic-m6f it costs organization, which is in turn max damage. If you watch the video i linked, i believe he also argued for why/why not it is worth it.

[@MihailoPetrovic-m6f]

@@sumzer_0 yeah, but the org loss is minimal (like 2 org) especially if you have line and support artillery in your divisions. After watching the video, I know understand the low placement on the tier list, but cloak basically suggests what I usually do, have my main line infantry army followed by 1 division per tile of recon.

[@sumzer_0]

@@MihailoPetrovic-m6f In the same video cloak finds that recon is not worth it to have in a division (meaning it performs worse with, than without). Another problem he doesnt present, is that you could use that same slot on something else. You could definitely do that, but it is pretty micro-intensive, but you do you.

[@williamforest7653]

21:19 Armored cars are for truck divisions. They're fast so you keep your division's max speed at 12 km/h (speed being the point of trucks divisions). Its cheaper than making light tanks going at 12 km/h

[@bigbenhgy]

Why not just use motorized for truck divisions if you don't have fast enough light tank?

[@lassitoytari5360]

Military police should be buffed to give a bonus to the organization and a bonus when fighting against enemy special forces. They should also give a bonus for urban environment. Adding a game mechanic for POWs would also open other possibilities for them.

[@calistudent6335]

Maintenance equipment capture is critical for mid sized nations without years of industry buildup where you'll let the enemy drain before pushing, like the baltics or poland maining russia or fighting russia+germany. Your equipment will be like 30% captured and it feels good for roleplaying too, giving captured stocks to puppets

[@ooo_Kim_Chi_ooo]

Armored Recon is amazing and can be done for cheap too. I usually put the canon on it that gives soft and hard attack. Combined with support AA you can have enough hard attack to take on the AI.

[@sumzer_0]

@@ooo_Kim_Chi_ooo you dont need, and shouldnt do hard attack vs ai. Always do soft attack against vanilla AI. Airborne light armor is better than armored light armor unless MP.

[@Zack_Wester]

2:20 another thing is that it does not affect the movments speed. meaning if you have a motorised div going 12MPH and add one line artilery/AA/AT its speed goes down to 4 MPH. the support Artilery/AA/AT does not do that and does not cost trucks or fuel. meaning you can do fun stuff like have a cav/bike div 6.4MPH add a support artilery/AA/AT and still move at 6.4MPH One think I see whit all the tier list is that they tries to judge a support div on how well it will fit in every single div a player will have and only for one Theater. this mean like I see Logistic get repeatedly F/E/D (D if they say only for motorized that one 12 artilery div and tanks) becaue we will only be fighting in EU a high railway and logistic hub nation. But here is the Thing Logistic fighting in Asia S tier on anything thats not pure infantry (6-9 infantry) more or less.

[@pinoyviking2109]

My friends and i used to just throw random support stuff and see if it sticks. Seems like that was stupid

[@sld1776]

I've gotta defend the light flame tank for mass infantry armies; it's not just a little cheap, you can make it diet cheap and still get the terrain bonuses for your whole division

[@sumzer_0]

@@sld1776 even though they are cheap, they give worse terrain bonuses compared to medium flame tank. Light tanks also cant get as high breakthrough as medium tanks. Light flame tank is arguably worse than having no support company at all.

[@sld1776]

@@sumzer_0 Cost of 1936 light flame company, maximum discounts, no frills: 35.10 IC. Cost of 1938 medium flame company, no frills: 50.62 IC. (Cost of 1939 art company; 48 IC.) I'm talking about the cheapest possible company for my line infantry. Not sure 5% attack bonus on three terrain types is worth it.

[@sumzer_0]

@@sld1776 Cheapest light flame tank no MIO is 2.25 IC per. *15 is 33.75. Cheapest medium flame tank no MIO is 3.6. 3.6 * 15 = 54. However, its not "only 5%". Light flame tank gives 5% bonus to forest. Medium gives 10%. Light flame tank barely gives any bonuses at all. Forest is also arguable the most important terrain to get the bonuses on. The second most important, is probably urban. Which medium flame tank also gives 5% more than light. The increase in cost completely justifies the extra terrain bonuses. Medium flame tanks also allows for a significantly higher amount of breakthrough compared to light flame tanks.

[@sld1776]

@@sumzer_0 Do 5% attack across three terrain types really drop LFT into F-tier? P.S. Wheeled suspension in the light tank drops the cost by 10%. Easy maintenance drops cost of all tanks by 5%.

[@sumzer_0]

@@sld1776 Yep. LFTs just have no use since medium flame tanks are better in every situation. If you can afford MFTs, you cant afford LFTs either. Oh yeah, forgot easy maintenance.

[@janbo8331]

The interesting thing about motorized recon is that it isn't effected by speed buffs to motorized in the MW doctrine. I noticed this while building really fast light tank divisions with motorized mixed in. Without the motorized recon the base speed of the division was 13.4 km/h, but adding the recon dropped it to 12km/h. The division was thus faster with a light armour recon.

[@蔡林翰-v2m]

事實上，因為卡車的最高速度就是12，使用卡車就限制了輕坦的速度 但通常你不需要這種輕裝甲速度，10就很夠了

[@lek1223]

one thing i will mention in the defense of MP in frontline units; if you play a minor nation that are infantry based, say pre- focus tree DLC, and you have too much support equipment for some reason, its nice in the sense that it *only* requires support equipment and nothing else, except manpower which you have plenty of. its not that you should build towards getting it, but if you have the equipment, why not

[@drsudy9640]

Great video! Thanks for a very clear and logical explanation!

[@siedzihector9938]

people often skip companies, that allow to snowball enemies like hospital or maitenance company, because they do not play countries, that have serious manpower or equipment issues. For example on mp with historical rulesets. for smaller country without manpower a common way is mostly to create smaller, but quality army. by using hospitals and maitenance company you can instead lower manpower and equipment waste to create quite huge army, that may secure solid chunk of frontline. Then even recon cavalry is useful to save fuel for cheap armored divisions or even limited air forces. My personally king of support companies is support AT. When i am doing cheap armored divisions from medium tanks and motorized infantry, then support AT allow me to greatly increase penetration of division without produce specialised tank destroyers, so i can produce even more universal medium tanks. I must just remember to give my armoured divisions greater priority to receive better AT before it will go to infantry. its also cheaper to produce

[@tomasdariuspaun7586]

Super Heavy tanks are support companies.... when you have 1000 factories and own half the world.

[@lynarisevershadeshadowfall1684]

And even then they're not worth it cause of the terrain stats, you literally have to mod them to 1/3 or 1/4 of the malus for them to at least be an ok RP choice.

[@tomasdariuspaun7586]

@@lynarisevershadeshadowfall1684 exactly -50% attack on some terrains

[@tomasdariuspaun7586]

@@lynarisevershadeshadowfall1684 literally negative medium flame tanks

[@JDothan]

20:05 and cav recon doesn’t use fuel , which is a *huge* difference you didn’t mention

[@sumzer_0]

It is not a huge difference. The fuel part only affects the support companies/battalions that use it afaik.

[@JDothan]

@@sumzer_0 it will slow the entire division down to nothing IIRC

[@dajeziii]

​@@sumzer_0you dont know the game.

[@lilithshopping7904]

field hospitals provide breakthrough, too.

[@lolloblue9646]

Seems maintenance is helpful for the split defence strat of 30 Minutes of Hell

[@user-jo2bu8tv5w]

wild move putting engeneer company anything below S tier

[@nirol1539]

u forgot to include buffs from doctrines, some SCs like signal company get their worth from there. If u go for superior firepower signal company + recon +engineers give just soooo many bonuses , especially if u go full right side of superior firepower. And if u go left right for Superior firepower and combine it with doctrine for mountaineers, u can make 7+2 with support rangers, aa,arty,signal/engineers and logistics/hospitals and just watch your mountaineers smash thru everything

[@nirol1539]

and if u play resource rich but low manpower country like nordics, 5+3(5 mountaineer+2arty+AA) unit with rangers,arty,signal, engineers and hospitals is just too perfect

[@FxTR22]

You can use armored cars for lategame as occupation garrison company to free up manpower.

[@mercdutch3950]

Rangers give +20% soft attack to artillery compared to the 10% of normal recon companies. You unlock this on the 4th doctrine right side. This makes this support company a must have because you can put it on your infantry AND marines to skyrocket the soft attack and remove mountain attack penalties. Late game 35 width 10/5 marines casually reach over 1000 soft attack with full doctrines. They are absolutely crazy. The only downside is it limits speed to 6.4 km/h so do not put this on fast divisions. If your tanks dont go over 6.4 km/h, I can see an arguement to replace LT recon depending on terrain. It is also costs ~250 army exp to get this in your division and requires a special forces branch slot.

[@sumzer_0]

You shouldnt do all that much line artillery, hence why that bonus is unimportant. You can watch my other video on that topic for more details. No, its a good company, but doesnt do all that much outside of mountains.

[@diegopagura421]

Rangers should be higher, they give good attacking bonus to Line Artillery as well.

[@michaelkleen7991]

Coordination is extremely important in battles

[@sumzer_0]

Its not. Its nice, just not that impactful.

[@ashley2750]

I don't agree with SupAA and SupAT placement, considering their line variants only cost 1 Combat Width, its much better to trade 1 infantry battalion for LimeAT and LineAA and take some better support companies with the 2 free slots

[@sumzer_0]

@@ashley2750 the support companies are cheaper without taking any combat width, for almost the same stats. There is no difference in CAS reduction from line AA vs support AA, so you could argue there isnt any practical difference. Trading 1 infantry battalion for line AA and AT not only decreases org, but also all of the other stats that infantry gives, compared to just using support variants.

[@JDothan]

2:39 the AI doesn’t know how to naval invade most of the time, I’d say engineers are better for port guards than support atry (edit: or, literally nothing)

[@sumzer_0]

No. Engineers cost too much and dont help as much as support arty does.

[@Arodeum]

Radio is S tier for tanks and offense division

[@Ixertius]

ranger, flame, signal, pioneer, airborne light tank, 2 Finnish companies . logi , hospital all should be S tier they are so strong

[@henriquedasilva4924]

Why there are some support companies in this tier list, like the flame tank and pioneers that I don't have in my game, are these expansions? And yes, I bought the game recently, so I'm still a newbie lol

[@JDothan]

16:25 IMO you missed the best flame tank design for tank divs - as cheap as possible with max fuel drums and over 8km/h

[@sumzer_0]

Maxing out breakthrough is more important. 8 km/h is only important if your tanks are that fast.

[@JDothan]

@@sumzer_0 why would you use tanks that aren’t 8km/h?? You can get crazy overruns and encirclements with decent speed

[@sumzer_0]

@@JDothan This tierlist is meant to be accurate for both MP and SP. In MP you rarely see templates around 8 km/h or higher. In SP 6 km/h is plenty for encirclements. SP is really forgiving either way.

[@JDothan]

@@sumzer_0agree on that, SP is easy mode

[@J7Handle]

I actually put MPs in my paratrooper divisions when I want them to be combat effective. Since I can’t add line artillery or armor to a paratrooper division, the MPs help put those paratroopers on par with a regular infantry division.

[@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja]

Support AA stops being useful the moment you have a single battalion of SPAA in the division. Which is more expensive for sure, but also gives armour.

[@sumzer_0]

SPAA isnt worth it. If you want to do space marines, then having a proper tank battalion is better, even if it costs more. You shouldnt do SPAA in tank divisions.

[@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja]

@@sumzer_0 Why should I put a proper tank in it instead? It costs more Takes more supply Has the same armour

[@sumzer_0]

@@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja For the stats? No battalion gives more stats per width than tanks do. You can also stack breakthrough on it (which SPAA reduces) as well as attack. No real point in doing SPAA when you can just do support AA instead.

[@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja]

@@sumzer_0 Sure if you want to put bigger guns in your tanks, then perhaps you get more soft attack. Breakthrough is mostly irrelevant when you can't afford planes. Space marines are not meant to have insane stats. They are meant to have enough armour to reduce their incoming damage. Of course if I want to make a pusher division, I'll use proper tanks. SPAA is just simply the cheapest way to double the damage your line holders can take.

[@sumzer_0]

@@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja You get a lot more soft attack. I have no idea where you got this from. Breakthrough will also matter on infantry, as long as you can actually increase it (which you can with tanks). Air doesnt change that. Space marines are meant to better than normal infantry. If you only use space marines for holding, you dont need space marines. Spamming infantry is way more IC efficient for that. Using tanks instead of SPAA is still better, because the increase in soft attack is higher than if It was line artillery, while still having higher org than the SPAA. You need to decide if you want quality units or quantity units, SPAA is too expensive to be quantity and too bad to be quality.

[@chr1zk676]

Great vid, would love to play with u some day! :)

[@fantomet9255]

Cool video, but when do we get dankus x sumzero stream??

[@sumzer_0]

Link to Tierlist: tiermaker.com/create/hoi4-support-companies-toa-2024-edition-16953550 Link to Cloak71 Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/q5K8cp9urZdsoMk

[@georgethegreatt7275]

Dude pin your comment!

[@nightshade4186]

There should be 10 slots for support

[@dizzypukas8410]

Muck off about millitary policy , that are good because they make resistance go down

[@sumzer_0]

As long as equipment is filled, nothing in the division template can make the resistance go down more. Military police only makes you use slightly less equipment, but it requires a large cavalry division to have its full benefit.

[@dizzypukas8410]

@@sumzer_0 I completely agree with everything you just said

[@rivvabear9748]

@@sumzer_0 Yeah I usually only find myself researching MP late game when I'm fully done with doctrine, templates etc and have enough army XP to make a large cavalry division. Besides that I don't research.

[@brandonneilsta.teresa3494]

Dave did make good use of MPs with 50 width cav divisions as garrisons for the memes.

[@samotter9509]

​@sumzer_0 in singleplayer as Germany you can use the free point in mobile warfare to take the second spirit of amry that makes it free to put in tanks and motorised, i think its called motorisation drive? make a 50 width light tank division with mp for 10 exp and then your real tank division and swap over to GBP, I produce insanely cheap inter war light tanks and use them with MP because it makes you lose almost 0 manpower to occupation. it's kinda weird but I would reccomend it for nations with high industry who have population problems late game due to occupation (Germany, Japan if you dont have a manchuko player and dont want colab china to be useless) doesn't take many factories and over a long game pays itself back especially if it stops you needing to go up a conscription law

[@ricky7426]

havent played vanila for so long i dont know what half of these even are

[@kanewhite2161]

Are the Medium Flame Tanks just for tank divisions, or can be used in infantry too?

[@CODMODDERZ360]

Have you ever played Hoi? Some of these are mad - Engineers as only A and MP’s as F?!?

[@SketchG]

As a BAD HOI4 player even before watching this video I knew MP sucked. Tho Engineers rock.

[@CODMODDERZ360]

@@SketchG MP’s are essential for garrison divisions. You’ll bleed so much manpower without them.

[@SketchG]

@@CODMODDERZ360 I just do either local or secret police and garrisoning isn't a problem anymore

[@Frontline_view_kaiser]

Last time I checked the vanilla HoI4 still does not give the Recon coy softattack bonus to rocket artillery of ANY kind which makes Rocket Artillery really disappointing

[@sumzer_0]

Recon gives the bonus to all types of artillery, so this is just false.

[@TheOfficialLilMeatball]

17:58 you cant get Pioneers and Airborne armor in Marines, you can only do one doctrine for Special forces and airborne armor is a paratrooper thing, i dont think this is a meta marine unit, but if there is a better design please let me know, looking for new stuff for Marines Edit: if there is a way to get more Brance Specialisms, please let me know :(

[@sumzer_0]

@@TheOfficialLilMeatball yes you can. You get a second special forces doctrine in 1940, meaning you can do both marine and paratrooper doctrine. It is the best multiplayer marine template yes. Some situations you can swap out the support aa, but otherwise that is the most common template used. Edit: there is --> You can

[@brinkipinki]

I think you are overvalueing Hard Attack in singleplayer a bit. The AI just doesn't build enough tanks and mechanized to justify any significant commitment to hard attack. Unless you're in a very specific situation, AT is pretty much always useless and there is always a better alternative for support companies. And the Hard Attack bonus from LT recon is negligable too, as tanks really do not need high Hard Attack either.

[@sumzer_0]

The tierlist is in general. Meaning both multiplayer and singleplayer. I comment on this when i add the support AT.

[@PunishedValentine1871]

great video, also you sound just like jens stoltenberg

[@creber4790]

Awesome video.

[@antonjensen4858]

+great vid - being Norwegian

[@nicolasgabriel564]

Oh yes, signal not being at least A is a meme. Ever played a MP game?

[@sumzer_0]

@@nicolasgabriel564 yes, actually my personal experience from MP is the reason i put it so low. Another MP player corrected me in the comments, so i put it 1 rank up. Its definitely not as strong as the top companies in the list, so its not A or S tier.

[@____-sj5vi]

Me watching this video to learn about the unique support companies that are country specific :) Me seeing that he skips over the country specific support companies :(

[@Sunday_fits]

So you’re telling me the best resistance Division is a 2 width cavalry? 7:05

[@brandonneilsta.teresa3494]

Or 1 armored car.

[@ballisticpug6764]

Yeah, I believe that it’s the most efficient because it will use X amount of the smallest division, meaning it won’t overshoot and use too many. Armored car is better though and I think that’s basically its only use

[@Sunday_fits]

@@ballisticpug6764agreed with both of you, I put one mil factory on armored cars at the start of the game

[@JDothan]

@@ballisticpug6764that’s not why, the larger divisions are just portioned out, it’s just because it’s cheaper

[@JDothan]

The actual “best” would be taking proper heritage first, making a max 50W cav and adding MPs. If you’re not gonna do all that, than 2W cav is probably best

[@leosharman8630]

But WHAT is Coordination???

[@Therealromario1]

In mid game I tend to create tanks with poor reliability and buff them with the maintenance company. This works perfectly.

[@YuffX]

Good idea, but it's a shame the buff works multiplicatively though Low initial reliability -> low reliability bonus from support

[@awesomefighter2272]

signal companies are atleast A tier.

[@darkequation]

Do Special Force supports scale with corresponding tech, like Ranger/Recon or Pioneer/Engineer?

[@sumzer_0]

Rangers yes, but pioneers no. Sadly reconnaissance is pretty bad so that wouldnt really matter either way. The engineer upgrades are pretty useful, which is why engineers are generally better than pioneers.

[@TheSpanishDon1]

Engineer is best for small nations

[@Daniel-jl9fk]

So theres a super heavy tank dedtroyer that, has the same canon as a heavy one. Is there any actual diference between the regular superheavy and the superheavy destroyer?

[@sumzer_0]

I believe it would get the same buffs as any TD would. Not sure, but it wouldnt matter since you shouldnt use it anyway.

[@quincyames2014]

support arty uses hella supply not worth in vanilla

[@stormtrooperrush9591]

Terrible takes on radio and maintenance both are must haves on tanks, 5-10% reliability on tanks is huge if you're actually making good tanks, it also helps to have all your tanks in battle ASAP. engineers are kinda mid ngl, C tier at best, antitank is cringe too expensive and AA gives piercing anyways

[@Youuuuuu]

Watch the video dumbass not just skip ahead and spew your own opinion

[@ordinaryrat]

Isn't recon good since it buffs artillery? Seems like its a must for divisions with a decent amount of artillery.

[@sumzer_0]

No divisions should have "a decent amount of artillery", watch my other video for more details. Recon on its own is pretty bad.

[@ordinaryrat]

@@sumzer_0 Wow seriously? Always assumed something like 9 and 3 with Infantry and Artillery was the strongest so thats pretty surprising. By decent amount of artillery I meant 2 or 3 artillery. I think several of the divisions in your other video have around that amount of artillery. In those cases is it still just worse that other options?

[@sumzer_0]

@@ordinaryrat You should really watch that video to complete, as i explain it in a lot more detail. Line artillery is worse in most situations yes.

[@brandonneilsta.teresa3494]

​​@@sumzer_0your statement speaks volumes that you don't use Superior Firepower and only play Germany. Shaking my SMH.

[@JDothan]

25W space marines (3x line arty) as a minor having a 95%+ battle win percentage (even while battle planning) against Germany (or any other major tbh) tells me line arty is far from useless

[@totalwar1793]

Is this for MP, or for SP?

[@sumzer_0]

Technically both, but i talk about the differences in the video (especially at the end)

[@YeahILoveTea]

also doesnt signal companies also effect airs? i remember some other youtuber talking about it

[@sumzer_0]

@@YeahILoveTea wdym by airs? Can you find the video or youtuber you are referencing

[@YeahILoveTea]

nvm i was trying to look for it but i think i just misremembered thinking that signal companies would effect the CAS's speed going to battle but it effects only effects reinforce rate (ground units) + coordination, so yeah it doesnt effect air modifiers it was from hygge gaming (Hoi4 guide - take your initiative to a new level - initative, reinforce-rate and coordination)

[@JDothan]

Signal companies apparently increase Cas damage by a ridiculous amount (50%+ IIRC). I forget where I saw it but people have noticed it, it s not mentioned anywhere in game though

[@YaBoiBlantyre]

waht is the "finland stuff" 😭

[@Olmax-ir1cz]

What is this company with palm tree and crate at 10:48

[@sumzer_0]

@@Olmax-ir1cz pioneers i believe. You get it from marine doctrine. Edit: I was wrong, i think it might be a swedish support company idk

[@leonardozaiatz4645]

Thats the jungle specialist company, I believe its exclusive to Brazil's focus tree, giving specialized movement and attack bonuses to jungle, forest and rivers.

[@lassebak5943]

Are you Norwegian?

[@sumzer_0]

@@lassebak5943 yes!

[@YeahILoveTea]

i love u

[@ohsnapthe12]

Short

[@Luca-ky3eh]

Never make tier lists again 🙏🔥

[@matthewbonner5006]

oof he doesn't understand how coordination works r.i.p.

[@anomite121]

subjectively* your opinion lil bro

[@captainmccuckin2698]

Terrible

[@mrksjke]

There's no need in so many tiers. S A B F + other is more than enough.

[@emptyemail619]

for me AA support is not at all at S Tier , it really good for defense i think , but for attackings divisions if you dont have plane it already lost and aa wont save you

[@sumzer_0]

Not true. Even though air is important, it is not that black and white. You can still push without having air, but you do need AA.

[@erikreznak]

How come you got so many support.. are those mods?

[@sumzer_0]

Everything is vanilla. No, some of them are finland exclusive. There are 3 flame tanks from the second engineer tech, and 3 more that you get exclusively from special forces doctrine. The rest should be known.

[@erikreznak]

@@sumzer_0 thankyou I play usually hungary