The origin of Israel-Palestine conflict

[@LexClips]

Full podcast episode: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4nCfJehpKyridU Lex Fridman podcast channel: kzbin.info Guest bio: Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst. Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny) is a political livestreamer.

[@LoopYyxy-gw6sh]

Cannot believe we let destiny, the guy who did not even know where palestine was (thinking it was in turkey), who thought assad was erdogan and that erdogan was the president of israel a few months ago, to be on the same panel as Norman.

[@noah2633]

Destiny is a clown, but that's also true of Finkelstein.

[@007ohboy]

​@noah2633 you are the 🤡 if you diss Finklestein on Israeli racism

[@connorbrady5689]

@@noah2633 This is an absurd false equivalency. In what way is Norm, one of the leading scholars in the world (if not THE leading scholar) on the topic of Israel-Palestine history, a "clown"? Is it just that you don't like him or do you have a specific greivance? Be precise if you do.

[@questionmark5463]

​​@@connorbrady5689He's definitely NOT a clown. Clowns are somewhat fun and entertaining. Norm is the opposite of that. He's an insufferable bore and comes across as unlikeable. He's a real chore to listen to, even if I do agree with some of what he's saying.

[@connorbrady5689]

@@questionmark5463 sorry if you aren’t entertained, what are you 5? Jfc grow an attention span. This generation is f*cked.

[@Crokey]

On Destiny's last point, the Irish didn't hate the British because the were British or black South Africans didn't hate white S. Africans because they're were white etc. "The Palestinians have a right to hate the people who have ruined their lives." ~ Norman Finkelstein

[@philipangelo595]

Yep, people tend to hate people who who are destroying them.

[@khabibnurmagomoodov9287]

@@philipangelo595its so bizarre that this even has to be explained. The propaganda machine is so powerful.

[@Jake-jr2zh]

I’m Irish and I don’t hate the Brits. The Irish in general tend to tolerate the Brits and in some case actually like them. But the won’t forget what the English have done to the Irish. Signs in shops in the 50s 60s in the UK offering rooms to rent . These signs said. No Blacks , No Irish , No Dogs .

[@Crokey]

@@Jake-jr2zh I used the past tense. I'm Irish too & like you I don't hate the Brits but my grandparents & great grandparents did and the signs said "no blacks, no dogs, no Irish," they put us last so we new were we stood. My farther worked in London while those signs were still around but he didn't hate the Brits either which reinforces my point, colonization & apartheid are the problem. Any feelings of hate among the Palestinians are justified by their oppression & will only decrease when they are free but it's probably going to take a generation or two.

[@jl8410]

This.

[@JohnFelinn]

You can not occupy people's land and then call them terrorists just because they didn't bend their knee and surrender. Nor you can call yourself innocent civilians because it is not your country to begin with.

[@dudi2200]

When was palestine not occupied?

[@MG-ul3mi]

so should all isrealis living in israel leave, as it doesnt belong to them to begin with? but then thats some fairytale shit that will never ever happen.

[@jerry8405]

@@dudi2200back when it was called israel

[@JjJj-kv7wu]

Do you mean Judea?

[@dudi2200]

@@jerry8405 i know, but those guys like to claim that palestine is occupied but can't answer when palestine was not occupied

[@SarfrazKhan-r4i]

Norman is the man who debunked the fairytale of a land without a people and a people without a land by Debunking the lies in Peters Time immemorial.

[@idoporges9215]

so many arab bots

[@Dulee47]

@@idoporges9215^ what people say when their genocidal beliefs aren’t being validated 🤣

[@idoporges9215]

@@Dulee47 Ok genius, inspect the guy's name for a second 😂🤣

[@tobysmith2081]

​@@idoporges9215 so many destiny shills

[@idoporges9215]

@@tobysmith2081 living, breathing, human, destiny shills mind you. Norm has to cheat the comment section because only ai toasters are dumb enough to take his side

[@ln6593]

I think that Mouini Rabbani is very methodical & logical in his arguments. He was the best.

[@Torric25]

absolutely; benny next. Norm is loud and obnoxious but Destiny is often very wrong

[@Mattheo76]

I really like Norman, he seems to be emotional involved. Understandable but it prevents in such an analysis. He is a good person.

[@IsItEvenWorthIt]

I’ll have to rewatch it but I know he talked very little compared to the other three and ended the talk with a bad faith virtue signal

[@guntv1195]

@@Torric25 can you name five things destiny was wrong about? I’ll wait

[@Torric25]

@@guntv1195Jews didn’t own the majority of the land as he claimed. They owned 6% and received in the partition 55%.

[@johnnypatterson7512]

Never known anyone to welcome a home invader and allow them to tske "any" portion of their home.

[@guythetechguy]

Why are we sticking to this analogy? This is the classic hate of the migrant which most of us would generally call racism. Jewish people that immigrated to Palestine didn't take any portion of anyone's home more than an Indian immigrant to the UK is taking somebody's home in the UK.

[@devileyes4u]

ohh you don't, what about Attoman empire? Never heard about any jihad against Turkey

[@Letsplay222]

@@devileyes4u The Arabs helped the British expel the Turks during WW1..

[@meandu2-fh8jr]

@@devileyes4u***Ottoman

[@faithfulservantofchrist9876]

I say they fight it out right now and the winner keeps all. The truth is Yahweh is the 1 true God and he says Israel will never cease to exist before him. Every nation that has tired no longer exist most recently Nazi Germany but Israel is still here. Because the bible is correct and all of Israel will be saved.

[@30secondsflat]

Not sure Destiny had the intellectual heft to be in this panel

[@Megantheestallion123]

Bro get your head out of your ass. 😂

[@chimpyman92]

not sure norm did either. Other two people where solid. Norm is a looney

[@TOP4-b5m]

@@chimpyman92 Norm has been studying this conflict since before you were born ​​⁠​​⁠

[@BrikMalek]

Norm is one of the last few honest of his community. SHAME ON YOU, you are the looney@@chimpyman92

[@dpf697]

@@TOP4-b5m No doubt Norm is well read on the topic, but he lost a significant amount of credibility due to his open support for terrorist groups like the Houthis.

[@smrafi7399]

Fundamental flaws in the logic of a jewish state is that it's existence is on other peoples land period. One could form a jewish state anywhere in the world and there would be resistance. It's just human nature. If the Jewish state was formed in Argentina , there will be resistance groups in Argentina.

[@idoporges9215]

i think there are plenty of people, including Argentinians, that would have been able in the course of 70 years of losing engage in diplomacy instead of devolving into rage filled mouth-foaming bloodthirsty terrorists

[@Onewildandcrazyguy]

No. Even if it's true that the land of Israel is stolen the entire world is built on stolen land everybody has stolen land from everybody at some point. But people learn to move on

[@Commander034]

Israel is more than 3000 years older than the first Arab to ever walk the earth.

[@jonathanwilliams7920]

Ridiculous statement… you can have anywhere you want as long as you dont have to commit genocide to live there. The issue isnt that you have the land, its that you completely took even the basics of human rights away from people.

[@LonelyParticle231]

​@@Commander034 Lol, the earliest Arabs existed centuries before the kingdoms of Israel and Judah even existed.

[@mariamavi6769]

My respect for Mr.Norman Finkelstein and all holocaust survivor that spirit resonance with the struggle of palestinian people.

[@DonArsuk84]

Well, Ficklesteen doesn’t believe the holocaust happened, so you need to use another reference.

[@philipangelo595]

@@DonArsuk84 That false.

[@progressreggae]

@@DonArsuk84 thats a lie. His family was all killed in the holocaust and he has talked about it publicly. So perhaps chose something factual to smear him with.

[@DonArsuk84]

Pretty sure he believes the IDF killed his family. David Irving told him so.@@progressreggae

[@tonycooper5599]

​@progressreggae Not all of his family. His parents were the only survivors. He has stated this many times. Anyone who says Norman denies the Nazi holocaust happened is either repeating lies or lying themselves.

[@salsinhojitsu8677]

Few month ago Destiny didnt know jack sh1t about conflict and now he is expert and master debater

[@meks1478]

Nah he's actually been reading about it for the past couple years in his private time but only did a serious deep dive a couple of months. He already knew quite a bit but just downplayed it to make everyone think he's completely clueless on the topic.

[@salsinhojitsu8677]

@@meks1478 i remember when he was googling basic infromation just few months ago

[@mattmyers2624]

​@@meks1478 I'd like to see a list of his sources vs. the vast list of likely lesser mainstream non-promoted sources/books, that the world's best funded and most sophisticated propaganda organization is likely to boost-promote their own biased sources so long as they're in line of the acceptable narrative talking points.

[@reubenmcmurray4377]

@@mattmyers2624would you though? Wouldn’t you just dismiss them out of hand anyway?

[@theshillpill6937]

I too am a master bater

[@asielnorton345]

ive mentioned this before on another clip. if one is an expert or extremely specialized in a given area it is extremely difficult to debate someone with no knowledge at all on the given subject. one would assume it is easy, but it is extremely difficult, and extremely frustrating.

[@connorbrady5689]

They find themselves in the very difficult position of having to educate their interlocutor, while also explaining why they are wrong. But frequently the interlocutor has already made up their mind, even without considering all of the (or at least, most of the) relevant information on the topic. It's legitimately both difficult and frustrating.

[@asielnorton345]

@@connorbrady5689 if one is humble and asks you to explain something to them. That can be done. But in a debate where they are being obstinate but don’t have a clue is difficult for so many reasons. A) they say openly false things just bc they don’t know any better, b) they say off the wall things that don’t pertain to the subject, c) they bring up given facts or contradict given facts that are so elementary that you haven’t thought about them in years and therefore your trying to remember these elementary things that you are way beyond so therefore have forgotten like a decade ago, d) their presumption and arrogance is aggravating, e) you're trying to think of simpler ways to explain things so they can understand them, f) there’s probably a multitude of other reasons. It is very hard.

[@LouisGFranco]

Plus Lex didn't seem too enthused about Zionist apologist author being quoted.... wtf was up with that?

[@michaelschupska2047]

@@connorbrady5689 Point taken, but Norm never attempts to do any of this. In fact, all he did was call his interlocutor stupid and intentionally mispronounce his name, which is certainly the least productive thing you could do, right? It seems kind of disrespectful to the seriousness of the topic to treat it so trivially.

[@mwoiaa]

​@@michaelschupska2047 but Norm is in his 70s. At that age the smallest things will tick you off, so I can't blame him lol

[@khurrammalik7273]

Prof Finkelstein and Mr. Rabbani are correct.

[@asielnorton345]

a "state" is a european construct. there were no such things as states before the 18th century in europe (france to be specific). therefore the fact that the arabs didnt construct a state in palestine or anywhere else is hardly surprising. the middle east is broken up into states the british created. furthermore it is a symptom of european arrogance and chauvinism bred from colonialism to assume their construct of statehood is superior or necessary.

[@Onewildandcrazyguy]

And basically the entire world accepts states now. The Palestinians what a state they just want to Israel to be their state

[@SayedHamra83]

Have you read 'Impossible State' by Wael Hallaq?

[@yingle6027]

Have you ever lived in a stateless country? It sux.

[@asielnorton345]

@@SayedHamra83 No but I'm part Native American. The Euros used the same crap to massacre and steal all the Americas. They did it to Africa as well, and as much of East Asia as they could. They've made a mess of most other continents with their amazing statehood idea.

[@connorbrady5689]

Building off of this, European colonial powers used the concept of the State to shatter the power and cohesion of the global south as it partitioned up Africa, Asia, and the Middle East. One glaring example is when it split Kuwait, I'll quote Austin Murphy: "In particular, Kuwait was carved out of a larger Iraq shortly after World War I by the British (and made formally "independent" in 1961}, so that the vast oil resources there could continue to be controlled by capitalist companies subsequent to Britain giving up its Middle Eastern colonies (Blum, 1995)." Kuwait was "an artificially created monarchy (Salinger and Laurent, 1991), which continues to maintain a repressive rule of that area of the world even after its "liberation" from Iraqi rule (Associated Press, 2000b)."

[@ghiorghetatarescu3649]

I remember a clip of destiny from about 4 months ago, where he asked his chat where this "palestine" is on a map

[@KBhunterx262]

It's unfortunate since it seems like he took a stance on the matter before knowing any of the facts, then as he wanted to become more "knowledgeable" on the subject, he subconsciously, or consciously, researched more into things that agree with his opinion

[@djwestbrook36]

@@KBhunterx262exactly

[@SBoss281]

Not true

[@684W13]

The only reason KZbin is pushing destiny as a modern day all knowing philosopher is that destiny is a cock and the leftists hate real men so they make a cock to be a role model for the youth.​@@SBoss281

[@bakker071]

@@KBhunterx262that’s the definition of destiny right there

[@The911watch]

A debate that could have gone down as one for the history books, got perfectly ruined because Lex thought it would be a good idea to place an arrogant Twitch gamer that couldn't locate Israel on a map 6 months ago, with 3 of the most influential scholars on the Topic. What an utter disappointment...

[@reubenmcmurray4377]

I disagree. This could have been a great conversation, inviting Finklestien was a mistake. The disconnect between his knowledge and his ability to talk about his knowledge was on full display.

[@mattmyers2624]

​@@reubenmcmurray4377 Did you watch the same conversation as the rest of us? Finklestein masterfully explained from observer perspective multiple times, clarifying for the other two on "your side" - who were clearly ideological, signed by the straw man arguments they kept bringing up to try to make it sound like they got a point on their opposition.

[@mattmyers2624]

I disagree - a wildcard like Destiny is a forcing mechanism for the opposition to have more an opportunity to counter what a more ideological-lesser educated perspective will bring to the table.

[@ghostpiratelechuck2259]

@@reubenmcmurray4377That may be but the point stands. Norm would have brought more value to the table had mr mobelli not been there. Those three all respect each other, but not even Benny respects mr borella.

[@idoporges9215]

@@ghostpiratelechuck2259 he showed no respect for Benny, he only engaged him by quoting him out of context. he quoted him out of context right in front of him. Lex tried to make him stop multiple times, to no avail

[@spectrumthevideogame7167]

I always gotta question Lex’s credibility when he brings on Destiny to debate.

[@Letsplay222]

In addition to sounding out of place, Mr Bonelli even looks out of place here. Notice how everyone else is clean cut, wearing a collared shirt and some even wearing jackets and ties? Dressed like they are serious people? Borelli on the other hand looks like he threw some clothes on before rushing to the debate.

[@kittenlang333]

He looks as sloppy as he thinks and speaks.

[@jesseholmz]

What did he say that was incorrect?

[@WhatAMagician]

you sound 100 years old.

[@Letsplay222]

@@WhatAMagician You probably have an appearance that inspires people not to take you seriously either.

[@Letsplay222]

@@jesseholmz His analysis was shallow and superficial.

[@beeret110]

Who’s the guy with the beard? Very confused man

[@nazimbahrin3638]

Somebody who's not worth it to seat on that table

[@farahdeeba2993]

He’s a looney, don’t even bother. Wasted our valuable time

[@endcorruptio]

He's a talented bullsht artist charlatan, who has been auditioning for a future job as a brainwashing corporate propagandist for the ruling class, in the u.s. liberal sphere

[@daveg5857]

A state founded on the idea that one or another demographic is a majority is a little short-sighted, isn't it? How do you maintain that majority?

[@RavenThePlayer]

You have kids... Are you serious?

[@daveg5857]

@@RavenThePlayerOh, a breeding arms race. Lovely.

[@ghosthunter0950]

@@daveg5857Well funnily enough the Palestinians have been abusing that tactic.

[@trogdor8942]

Well maybe it makes sense for a community that has been a minority for thousands of years and hasn't had a great time with it. Especially after the Holocaust, can you blame them?

[@NickatNite511]

I love the defense of, "well, we have to defend ourselves because we moved here despite no one wanting us to be here and they still don't"... Like mf'er, look in the mirror... its you, honey. You're the problem, it's you.

[@callistoscali4344]

Why do you expect them to die? They are there and they don't want to die. If attacked, the Jews have no choice but to defend themselves.

[@nedschneebly1839]

"No one wanting us to be here". What about the international community?

[@italia189]

Finkelstein - A man who exposed two hoaxes vs. A blue haired streamer who came to know where Palestine is on the map 5 months ago.

[@farahdeeba2993]

Ha ha ha ha… couldn’t agree more

[@diaali8388]

Arguing with an idiot is the most frustrating thing. It is like playing chess with a pidgeon. Mark Twain said " Never argue with fools. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience". There is frustration when facts are presented that goes against your worldview. But facts remain facts.

[@fig1115]

less eloquent but more applicable to this . “Never play chess with a pigeon. The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over. Then shits all over the board. Then struts around like it won.”

[@AboSaad-q8n]

Its official, destiny in long moderated in-depth debates looks like an idiot, of course he is good at deflecting and talking fast but that does not work here.

[@herbhealsus]

It’s the same old story we learned as kids. Europeans settlers taking peoples homes and calling them bad people for want their homes back

[@raymondaloni2309]

You know that only 32% of the population came from Europe right? Also did you miss the part where the so called "Palestinian people" came to mandate Palestine from multiple middle eastern countries for better opportunities ?😂

[@murpzzthecat5559]

@@raymondaloni2309 What are u trying to justify??

[@dondiegodeazambuja9410]

That format would have been more helpful to those who want to know the facts. Having Destiny in it ruined the exchanges. He thought this was his regular twitch gaming deal. Such a wasted opportunity to understand what started this and why the world allowed such injustice to happen.

[@guythetechguy]

Just wanted to correct the typo you had there. Justice. If you're looking for historical injustices there's endless examples to look at but arguably this is not one.

[@dondiegodeazambuja9410]

@@guythetechguy You are off your rocker. Justice would have been cutting up a piece of Germany and giving it to the Zionist. If you call this land theft justice then you are a thief.

[@BbeMamGaga]

The Israelites have the same empathy for the Palestinians as the Nazis had for the Jews. History upside down!

[@Cobbido]

Who do you think funded good old Adolf's start in the first place?

[@jimbobaggins27]

Mr Wikipedia fell flat as expected

[@patrickitme1772]

Mr 140 Characters type take

[@Karmagheden]

Wikipedia is a place those like Destiny get their 'facts' edited by those they carry water for e.g. AIPAC, defense contractors, big pharma, political establishment, censorship industry.

[@IbnRushd-mv3fp]

"And then everybody died..."

[@truelies5431]

Destiny got owned by Candece Owens.. How the hell does he think he stands a slight chance against Norman "fax machine" Finkelstien 😅

[@jamesmiller5331]

Gaza getting owned now as we speak. I wonder how many University girls called a guy a Naxxi because he drives a red Ford pickup before they went to a march to chant "From the river to the Sea" at some fellow students that happen to be ju? I often wonder how many genders it takes to screw in a lightbulb? I wonder for how long I will have to change the spelling of terms like "naxi" and "ju" in order to have even a 50% chance of not having Google hide my comment?

[@Onewildandcrazyguy]

I'd like to see that. Candace Owens is one of the dumbest people on KZbin

[@dainercooney2949]

But Wikipedia said it here 😂

[@LouisGFranco]

Wikipedia, isn't that like a notch above "urban dictionary" site?

[@BbeMamGaga]

I ❤ Norman Finkelstein. This man is a righteous among the nations!

[@PROfaniteez]

Destiny always speaks in such absolutes. Nothing is black and white mate, he fails as a debater on so many fronts here.

[@SBoss281]

Huhuh??????

[@PROfaniteez]

@@SBoss281 "I never hear about the fact that a civil war started in 47". Garbage, that's widely covered in the literature. To sum it up for you so you understand this is one example of Destiny speaking in absolutes and doesn't possess a full understanding of the topic he's talking about.

[@sidenote1459]

Isn't that criticism... an absolute?

[@PROfaniteez]

@@sidenote1459 I'm not in a debate mate, big difference if you don't understand that.

[@nimbusxd91]

Mr broccoli!!

[@tpozzbarwani9977]

His head looks like one

[@dixztube]

Why is destiny on here. It’s so silly who in the world is this guys agent I don’t get it. It’s silly

[@dudi2200]

He's actually smarter than most ppl who follow tiktok trends and chant things without knowing what they're saying

[@kennethdixon6458]

If Destiny would drink 6 shots of whiskey 30 minutes before each debate, that would fix the speed talk problem. I've found when slowing it down to .75, Destiny sounds normal but everyone else sounds drunk.

[@metacafekid]

Mr. Guacamole

[@agentsmidt3209]

He is a fantastic moron

[@john.jai.sullivan]

😂😂😂 how is it that I know exactly who you’re talking about

[@liamwinter4512]

Destiny showed up with finger paints and crayons.

[@mbuckholz]

He's a liberal idiot

[@endcorruptio]

Lmao, because its so true

[@newonevery740]

I live in a time where a gamer troll is brought by a podcaster to "debate" a professor on history... This is a major L for Lex. Also the maps used are false as the Palestinian territories are much smaller now. Furthermore all his points are ahistorical, for example most of the lands in the partition weren't sold. Second he argues if why are you picking 1948 and comfortably picks 1947 doing the same thing he argues against. Also Palestinians were taking Jews into their own homes at first as they viewed them as poor oppressed people. While for the gamer other than ahistorical statements he used logical fallacies in abundance

[@dondiegodeazambuja9410]

Lex Friedman, put medhi hassan agsinst destiny and see how he fares. Medhi knows the rules of debate and will teach you everything wrong with destiny as a debater.

[@ZobeidaWoodhouse]

Every time practically the Palestinians pushed to have their own country Israe & US had stopped it

[@trogdor8942]

Israel and the US pushed the Palestinians for a state in 2000 and 2008. The Palestinians didn't want that, and there's justification because they wanted a better deal, but you can't say that Israel frustrated the ambitions of a Palestinian state. They could have had one even if it wasn't what they wanted.

[@الدنياماتتفقلبي]

​@@trogdor8942Enough lying

[@trogdor8942]

@@الدنياماتتفقلبي maybe back up your claim bro. There were offers on the table, just not what the Palestinians wanted.

[@JawboneDonky]

Zahir Muhsein was a Palestinian leader of the pro-Syria As-Sa'iqa Ba'athist faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization between 1971 and 1979. In an interview with Trouw Magazine, 31. March 1977 he stated....."The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new tool to continue the fight against Israel and for Arab unity.

[@JawboneDonky]

Hamas Minister of the Interior and of National Security Fathi Hammad, aired by Al-Hekma TV on March 23, 2012. Stated..... .....we all have Arab roots, and every Palestinian, in Gaza and throughout Palestine, can prove his Arab roots - whether from Saudi Arabia, from Yemen, or anywhere. We have blood ties. Personally, half my family is Egyptian. We are all like that. More than 30 families in the Gaza Strip are called Al-Masri ["Egyptian"]. Brothers, half of the Palestinians are Egyptians and the other half are Saudis. Who are the Palestinians? We have many families called Al-Masri, whose roots are Egyptian. Egyptian! They may be from Alexandria, from Cairo, from Dumietta, from the North, from Aswan, from Upper Egypt. We are Egyptians. We are Arabs. Salma Fayumi, a resident of Kafr Qasim (Palestin/Israel), demonstrated her cooking prowess on the show "Master Chef." Fayumi proudly showed off her Kushari dish that she prepared, "Egyptian cuisine made of rice and lentil." "My family came from Egypt, from Faiyum, and I am Salma Fayumi from Faiyum," the cook from Kafr Qasim said. If Palestine were an Arab state, at any point in recorded history, why was there no mention of them? Because there never was an Arab Palestinian nation, nor any nation called Palestine, ever. When the Ottomans conquered the land in 1517, they gave no independent statehood under Arab rule, but held Palestine as a territory.

[@freshyp460]

Mr bornelli looks like a muppet

[@evelync177]

May look it, but is obviously no muppet--not clever enough!

[@jc-zp1de]

Lmao destiny and Benny started writing asap when Norman started talking about the beginning of the conflict.

[@ferociousspark4166]

What kind of anti-intellectual take is that? "Omg they're taking notes what losers "

[@jc-zp1de]

@@ferociousspark4166 what’s makes you assume that? I just find it funny… just like Norman bring up quotes like a broken record 😂

[@nateg9]

yea it’s kind of a pivotal part of the story

[@ashleyKennedy5]

What did they write .... "Oh fuck oh fuck he's quoting benny"

[@RethinkIslam-qd7we]

Why was Israel created in the first place? Which country allows wholesale migration of one ethnic group from anywhere in the world?

[@marcelperes6842]

24:46 is something that most people don't want to think about it, people are addicted in the dichotomy of the opressed vs the opressor and in fact history is never that simple

[@emd180362]

Inevitably, Finkelstein describes Destiny as a moron

[@hindaclubhindaclub]

Benny you can say palestinian or it s too hard for you 😂

[@j_sr3608]

No Israeli Zionist ever says the word Palestinian. That is how much their ethnic cleansing ideas are ingrained in them.

[@wiseguy1582]

France stayed in algeria 130 years... untill 1962 Charles de gaules was saying it was french territory that belongs to the french... and that algeria was taken from the turkish empire... a revolution broke out for 10 years with 2 millions algerians dead... 40000 in one day ... then the french packed their stuff and left ... history and the will of people are major factors

[@g.n.8183]

Lex is definitely favoring the pro-Isreali position and putting Norm at a disadvantage. But it's actually not working since Benny's position is morally reprehensible and disingenuous.

[@jimba6486]

Destiny telling the professor about the origin of conflict. Would be like Ben Shapiro telling Richard Wolf about what communism is. This was hard to listen to. Cringe warning.

[@ag225-ml]

Imagine if this conversation was taking place about Uganda or Kenya instead of Palestine.

[@biloz2988]

Most speakers assumrd that Israel "had" the right to have a state, while in fact the land was "gifted" to the zionists instead of the people by a colonial "power". There are 2 main points that need not be overlooked or forgotten: 1- Europe did not want the jews in Europe during or after WWII, even Russia (the Soviet Union then) did not take them in, so the British mainly pushed the UN to partition the land under its "mandate" in order to brush aside some arabs to make room for the zionists. 2- without the political and military as well as the financial backing by the west, israel could not win any war nor sustain itself since the Balfour Declaration and unto this date,

[@napoleonofdorset]

Destiny is a featherweight in this company

[@쇼팽-z6x]

Destiny is unbearable lol.... Let the intellects speak.. not some random steamer who pretends to know the subject.

[@ninjaasd1]

Just completely ignoring the reality of colonialism would never get anyone to understand the real root cause of this hell.

[@yingle6027]

Everyone wants to live in colonised countries?

[@Andreweoliver]

​@@yingle6027 weird how that works right? *Scream colonization is bad".. Then move away to a non "colonized" country already

[@soobs2]

Who is the guy next to finkelstein?

[@georgeloy]

Finkelstein: "history is about facts, not about hypotheticals'. 10 mins later nods in agreement when his comrade explains "if the UNSC had more African and Middle East nations, that resolution would not have passed". Dumb hypocrisy.

[@JohnFelinn]

💕Was surprised to learn that the West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem have been under occupation for 55+ years 😵, according to the international law and UN resolutions (1967-2023). I've come to believe that justice needs power to enforce it. ⚖❤

[@trogdor8942]

They always talk about the percentage of land that was alloted to each state, but never what that land actually was. Most of the original land of the British mandate was given to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. Well over half the land that the Jews got in the 1947 partition was uninhabited desert. The Arabs got most the good farmland and a good coastal region, although the Jewish state was allotted most of the coast. Besides the Negev desert, the area allotted to the Jewish state was the primary area of Jewish settlement and the area allotted for an Arab state was where modt of the Arabs lived. All you need to do is look at a map of settlements if the two communities to conclude that this plan was fairly reasonable particularly for a brand new UN to come up with. The one part that was pethaps not reasonable was giving the Negev to the Jews, but once again it was uninhabited desert.

[@HamzaBaqoushi]

Thank you.. you input just proves that Israel is just a western sentry with a clean geopolitical mission to conquer/divide a foreign region for strategical reasons, and that the israelis are just connon fodder for some else war.

[@sofianebenzaza]

I just finally got to the end when Destiny started talking. He is pretty bad vis à vis the importance he is given around these level of debates

[@ZenosMind]

I was born in America to Palestinian parents. It's not that I wish I was born there, it's the fact that my family lost, struggled/struggles, died necessarily for Israel to exist.

[@fabianortiz5560]

MR.BOROCHELI! Norman- voice 😩

[@nicolasisaksson1175]

I sense Finklesteing doesn't like Mr. Bonelli. I might be wrong though.

[@colloquialsoliloquy6391]

The origins of the Ireland v England conflict. "Well ,there was nothing ,and then in 1969 ,Irish people ,for some unknown reason ,started attacking the English people in Ireland. The Irish stopped attacking , the English told the world that, before 1969 ,there was nothing ,and for about 40 years ,the world believed them.

[@Jake-jr2zh]

Unknown reason. Seriously you need an education.

[@leefleer]

Why is Destiny there? So insulting to the other three.

[@evelync177]

...because no one could be stupid enough as "destiny" to take the indefensible pro-Israeli side with Benny Morris while genocide against Palestine is happening in real time!

[@jasonmardoniomeza1711]

Norm called Destiny a motor mouth!!! 😆

[@Alex191757]

I have a question : 7m Jews , 7 m Palestinians : Do you think 2 states should divide the land and resources equally ? On Genocide : is Gaza viable now ? Considering The destruction is still not over .

[@sbrownson6155]

The origin of the conflict is when king David purchased The Temple Mount rather than warring with the inhabitants there which they were instructed to buy God. Their disobedience caused this. As has most of their problems in accent history and not so ancient history.

[@gri7]

A scholar versus a twitch stream gamer LOL

[@Carbonbank]

3x playback speed would be nice

[@dominiqueabel1076]

Where is the entire débat? More than 4 hours. The man called " Destiny" put it really horrible. What a bad idea to bring him! Not only his words but the way is speak so quicly. Por Finkelstein (because he is the one with most empathie). The man by his side is remarquable. My god, you have to be more than patient in front of those two. I'm speaking about the all débat.

[@darrenjamrock2677]

The pro-Palestine speakers state facts the pro-Israel speakers state assumptions

[@jl8410]

He says “I never hear about” referring to 1947, yet any history book on the topic literally addresses it. Rashid Khalidi’s book goes into great depth on this. Streamer Boy is showing how little he has read.

[@sofianebenzaza]

At least Destiny has an iPad Pro and an Apple pencil to quote his notes and his 30 Wikipedia tabs

[@Andreweoliver]

Destiny is just outclassed in every category

[@carlbrown2344]

THE WISDOM,THE KEY POINT,THE FACT,WHO AND WHAT IS JEW? AND THE IDEA OF WHO AND WHAT IS A CHOSEN PEOPLE? ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO SOLVE A PROBLEM IS TO INVESTIGATE THE ROOT.

[@exvelrajashin4790]

People keep talking about 1948. How do you believe the Balfour Declaration of 1917 influences/effects today's current issue. Promises were made, what promises were kept, what promises were all but ignored, during and after the British's war against the Ottomans

[@Alex_Plante]

I'd be curious to know what is Destiny's position on gentrification. You know, when wealthy outsiders buy up low rise apartment buildings and townhouses in working class areas of a city, kick out the tenants, and fix them up to live in or to re-sale to other wealthy outsiders who move in to the formerly working-class neighbourhood. It would be interesting to see if he is logically consistent.

[@Jackuri501]

Love this comment. Nailed it.

[@VANCOUVERHOUSEFINDER]

The sad sad history of this region. It will never be resolved .

[@idontwantcorporateretaliat6301]

20% Arab at inception huh? And do pray tell, what percentage of those were Arab Muslim, what percentage were Arab Christian, and what percentage Arab/Mizrahi Jewish?

[@aquddus1907]

Lex, how is destiny a legitimate guest for this subject? This is a very lazy match up. He is an unborn infant in this field and apart from able to talk fast has nothing of substance to contribute apart from what he has learnt in the last couple of months.

[@pulkitgera]

First clip I saw from this debate, but Destiny just sounded different compared to the other three…very lay man-ish and unnecessarily aggressive. He reminded me of my brother who likes to “debate” as well…

[@abkirkbeats]

Nightmare blunt rotation

[@MongoSlade84]

😂😂😂

[@capnscarleg]

Ten minutes in....my God this is painful...

[@stokey24]

The two state solution will NEVER work

[@Ozscaro]

That slow dude have no idea how debates work 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@pxp175]

I still remember that poor girl dragd through the streets og Gaza on October 7th whail everyone aroud is cheering and spitting at her.

[@roseturcotte1027]

The country known as Israel now had Arabs living there. No occupier could legally own another peoples land. So Britain had no right in the first to sell the land to the Jews. The UN had no right to give the Jews anything. The Laws on occupation in their charters by both the league of nations and United Nations stop occupiers from claiming other peoples land. It was the Arabs right to decides whom gets to live in their country not some occupying force. Wrongs committed than against Arabs is still going on. You sit and debate illegal corruption as if what happened was the penniless people who lived their fault. You all unjustly try to hide that fact and shamefully support Israeli rights while trying to decide trivia.

[@pratika6352]

Benny Morris relived his stupid youth through Mr. Boncarlo, and damn he enjoyed himself.

[@dankoppel6271]

Losing your home is nothing compared to losing your life. During the Holocaust entire communities were wiped out and the remaining Jews picked themselves up and continued, as hard as that was. The ones who survived did not pine for going back to their homes in Poland, etc. They made new lives and built a new country. Right now, Palestinians should focus on how best to get to the goal of a new state without looking backwards to their old plots of land. Of course it's a highly upward battle with Israeli leaders like Netanyahu but Palestinians should abandon all forms of terrorism and show Hamas (and all future similar groups) the door. This will greatly advance their cause. Terrorism has been a greater curse to Palestinians than to Israelis. And holding on to the "right of return" is another false hope that has only sunk past chances at a reasonable peace deal (eg. Annapolis Conference).

[@jamesg6671]

The origin is the aplastó and where told to move to make room for the Jews cause every other country in the world didn’t want them

[@SuperAnzani]

Morris needs to learn to leave that pen alone...

[@Broken_dish]

holy crap what is destiny's beard everytime i see him i cannot focus who let him out like that there is just a huge patch of no hair in the middle of it how dose someone even live like this dose man not have a mirror anywhere?

[@TylerStrangelove]

For all the difference in their credentials, Destiny didn't make any claims that Norman could pick apart as factually inaccurate or clearly unsound, and seemed to be reduced to acting like an immature 12 year old with the insults to compensate. I see a lot of what seem to be astroturfed comments spamming the same couple talking points (once upon a time Destiny couldn't find Israel on a map, etc), but it's telling that nothing from the actual debate is cited to discredit him being there.

[@AwButterCup]

Nomadic tribes is where this war originated. Cain and Abel’s story sheds light on that. The U.N gave Palestine the keys to drive their own economy and independence. Look into the burning of Greenhouses…. Palestine Fatah was eliminated by Palestine Hamas Egypt actually owns the land Palestine is occupying. Due to an invasion in B.C.E Also people of Palestine have been taken in before by surrounding areas. But Just like October 7th. They brought terror. Only the people who didn’t bring terror were welcomed to stay and join the armies. essentially mostly the bad apples that were rejected as refugees from all surrounding nations lineage Is there. That’s why we are seeing terrorists promoting this shit on national news…. If that wasn’t the case… well you’d see more of these nations interacting and trying too help. Instead you have uninformed, incoherent people who would never fight for their country/state/nation or people. Being able to formulate opinions/protest garbage facts. Thinking it makes them a good person. Also one more thing. Middle eastern religious values are based off Paganism. Paganism was prominent in the Viking ages…………. Which correct me if I’m wrong was a pretty barbaric time period. But as society progresses so do ethics and morals…. Just not when you’re stuck with a religion that was formulated pre dating or during those times. If you support Palestine and are not from that region or its surrounding areas I dare you to step foot in that region and see what happens to you…….

[@philipangelo595]

The Christian nations have been as barbaric as anyone. They colonized the world for five hundred years.

[@JosephJouil]

1948 is the year God chose for the re-establishment of the state of Israel. As quoted in the bible, the state of Israel will never be uprooted again. The jews had been wandering for the past 3000 years ago before returning to their promised land. We all trust in God, and it is the will of God that the land of Israel has been reestablished.

[@marinasuarezdebauer6579]

Unos llegan a la construcción de sus convicciones a través de la experiencia o el estudio de los hechos, los otros están convencidos por un sentir subjetivo y viceral, e intentan que los hechos se interpteten, ajusten y den justificación a sus objetivos.

[@nateg9]

Norm got exposed as a moron by Morris and Destiny, but mostly by himself getting pissed any time someone added context to his shitty niche “quotes” that he uses to reframe history

[@Jake-jr2zh]

Are you deluded ?

[@jujuoof174]

Fascinating, thank you

[@fortherestofmylife66]

All this debate shows is that Norman Finkelstein is an emotional zealot that is not a serious thinking person