The Origins of Mass Killing: the bloodlands hypothesis

[@maghdean]

Here's from a fan in Ukraine: Prof. Snyder is an outstanding historian, thinker, and person. Many thanks to him for his so important work! Ukraine is really happy to have him as a friend while being an honest scholar.

[@gp9206]

History as Propaganda: Intellectuals and the Ukrainian Crisis David North@davidnorthwsws 16 May 2014 A group of right-wing academics, journalists, pro-war human-rights activists, and specialists in “discourse” is gathering in Kiev this coming weekend (May 16-19, 2014). The purpose of the meeting-headed by Professor Timothy Snyder of Yale University and Leon Wieseltier, the neo-con literary editor of The New Republic-is to bestow political and moral respectability on the Ukrainian regime that came to power in February, through a putsch financed and directed by the United States and Germany. Promoting themselves as an “international group of intellectuals,” the organizers have issued a publicity handout-excuse me, a “Manifesto”-in which the meeting is described as “an encounter between those who care about freedom and a country where freedom is dearly won.” [1] There is some truth in this statement, as the overthrow of the Yanukovych government did, in fact, cost the United States a great deal of money.

[@pauldalnoky6055]

You geniuses are going to start WW 3. Thanks, pal.

[@jeremya.695]

@@pauldalnoky6055 Ukraine is going to start it? I’d argue Russia is.

[@pauldalnoky6055]

@@jeremya.695 it started the last one

[@jeremya.695]

@@pauldalnoky6055 How did Ukraine start WWII?

[@larstenfaelt1859]

I found the lectures of Timothy Snyder quite recently. What a scholar. So informative and with a humanistic touch. Also the old lectures has aged very well and give the background that we need. Very consistent.

[@gp9206]

When Snyder published this essay in early 2010, he evidently considered Bandera and the OUN to be an important, dangerous and disturbing element of Ukrainian history. However, by the time Bloodlands was published in October 2010, only eight months later, Snyder’s treatment of this subject had undergone a radical change. In his 524-page book, the operations of the Ukrainian nationalists received the most cursory mention. The index of Bloodlands does not contain a single entry for either Stepan Bandera or the OUN! The entire book devotes just one sentence, on page 326, to the murderous activities of the UPA, commanded by the OUN. In the course of 2010, as final preparations were being made for the publication of Bloodlands, Snyder decided that references to the crimes of the Ukrainian nationalists should be kept out of the book. None of the facts and issues relating to Ukrainian fascism raised by Snyder in his February 2010 essay in the New York Review of Books were raised in Bloodlands.

[@davidokeefe1898]

Very, very informative. A very well-presented, well-formed thesis. I regret that I just found this lecture, only now. Thank you, Professor Snyder.

[@gp9206]

When Snyder published this essay in early 2010, he evidently considered Bandera and the OUN to be an important, dangerous and disturbing element of Ukrainian history. However, by the time Bloodlands was published in October 2010, only eight months later, Snyder’s treatment of this subject had undergone a radical change. In his 524-page book, the operations of the Ukrainian nationalists received the most cursory mention. The index of Bloodlands does not contain a single entry for either Stepan Bandera or the OUN! The entire book devotes just one sentence, on page 326, to the murderous activities of the UPA, commanded by the OUN. In the course of 2010, as final preparations were being made for the publication of Bloodlands, Snyder decided that references to the crimes of the Ukrainian nationalists should be kept out of the book. None of the facts and issues relating to Ukrainian fascism raised by Snyder in his February 2010 essay in the New York Review of Books were raised in Bloodlands.

[@stefanhensel8611]

This lecture has never been more important than right now, in spring of 2022.

[@jacpratt8608]

Even more now in the Spring of the South. 😨

[@gp9206]

This is important too as it reveals who the real Timmy is ...! When Snyder published this essay in early 2010, he evidently considered Bandera and the OUN to be an important, dangerous and disturbing element of Ukrainian history. However, by the time Bloodlands was published in October 2010, only eight months later, Snyder’s treatment of this subject had undergone a radical change. In his 524-page book, the operations of the Ukrainian nationalists received the most cursory mention. The index of Bloodlands does not contain a single entry for either Stepan Bandera or the OUN! The entire book devotes just one sentence, on page 326, to the murderous activities of the UPA, commanded by the OUN. In the course of 2010, as final preparations were being made for the publication of Bloodlands, Snyder decided that references to the crimes of the Ukrainian nationalists should be kept out of the book. None of the facts and issues relating to Ukrainian fascism raised by Snyder in his February 2010 essay in the New York Review of Books were raised in Bloodlands.

[@PBCBlount]

@@gp9206 So is the book worth a read?

[@thomasmueller58]

Tim Snyder is not just a historian, but a person who puts humanity first. He is a gifted speaker and questions beloved ways of thinking. His books and this lecture are musts.

[@alless48]

Timothy Snyder is a propagandist disguised as a historian.

[@gp9206]

When Snyder published this essay in early 2010, he evidently considered Bandera and the OUN to be an important, dangerous and disturbing element of Ukrainian history. However, by the time Bloodlands was published in October 2010, only eight months later, Snyder’s treatment of this subject had undergone a radical change. In his 524-page book, the operations of the Ukrainian nationalists received the most cursory mention. The index of Bloodlands does not contain a single entry for either Stepan Bandera or the OUN! The entire book devotes just one sentence, on page 326, to the murderous activities of the UPA, commanded by the OUN. In the course of 2010, as final preparations were being made for the publication of Bloodlands, Snyder decided that references to the crimes of the Ukrainian nationalists should be kept out of the book. None of the facts and issues relating to Ukrainian fascism raised by Snyder in his February 2010 essay in the New York Review of Books were raised in Bloodlands.

[@sutonnajazdan727]

In 1937, Soviets killed my grand-grandfather in Mazyr, Paliessie region, and in 1943 Nazis burnt down my grandmother's village Mikhiedavichy. It's Belarus. A really damned land

[@paulgrieve7031]

Poor Poland. I suppose I’ll have to read Snyder though he sounds like a social scientist/Scientologist and praised more than bagwan Sri Rajneesh. I want to know if he mentions the partition of Poland or is the theme American politics, a love of the EU and a visceral hatred of Donald trump. Yes Americans can engage in hatred and killing too, probably

[@lonestarbug]

Terrible.

[@toosinbeymen6304]

I find Timothy Snyder's lectures so dense that I have to listen to passages sometimes a couple times to try to absorb his meanings. So packed with information and ideas. Anyone interested in this region and this region's history is really missing out if they don't know about his work.

[@DrCruel]

+Toosin Beymen Not really all that complicated. He's simply saying that pretending Bolshevik atrocities were somehow better than Nazi atrocities is bad history, and that deliberately lying about the facts is not good history, regardless of who gets annoyed.

[@Lucillesgirl]

+DrCruel I don't think it is quite that simple. I have watched every video he has done both on YT & other University specific sites. I became interested enough to read Bloodlands & currently reading Black Earth...It is in fact complex but he seems to weave together separate & diverse individual histories...part of that is recognizing the reality (as opposed to the propaganda), the horror of living under Stalin's terror & the evils he committed against an endless list of ethnic victim groups

[@DrCruel]

***** On the Bolsheviks and their escapades, I think Vladimir Brovkin is very good. Also Richard Pipes and Robert Conquest. My experience is that one has to be skeptical about certain historians because of their ideology (that applies especially to Left fascists and their sympathizers). Ethnicity has nothing at all to do with it.

[@DrCruel]

***** Really. Brovkin's books are very well researched (and from Russian language sources - he followed your advice, apparently). The works of Pipes and Conquest seem to have been vindicated by the Venona papers and documentation released after the fall of the Bolshevik Empire. They also seem to correspond very closely to a lot of first-hand opinions from Eastern Europeans after the 1989-1991 liberation. Maybe Brovkin, Conquest and Pipes aren't liars. Maybe you're just another lying Left fascist. Think I'll go with that hypothesis and see where it leads me. But thanks for your input.

[@maestro105090]

You have to listen to it a couple times because he’s terrible at speaking

[@annakubiak2302]

Prof Snyder has been very important for the world, especially younger generations, to understand Eastern Europe and its tragic history. After so much violence and atrocities, we should do everything in our power so that another fascist dictator doesn’t do it again. But here we are again…

[@andyyygane4713]

How convenient!

[@THEROOTMATTERS]

IT SOUNDS TO ME THAT BIDEN WANTS THE UKRAINIANS DEAD. HE KEEPS ARRANGING FOR MORE MONEY AND WEAPONRY TO ARRIVE THERE, MEANWHILE, THE TOLL OF UKRAINIAN DEATHS IS ATTROCIOUS. BUT SELENSKY'S WIFE IS SEEN SHOPPING IN OTHER COUNTRIES WEALTHIEST DISTRICTS. SHE AND HER HUSBAND ARE NOT SCATHED. BIDEN AND THE WAR [HOG] HAWKS, CELEBRATE, AS THEY CONTINUE TO TELL US HERE IN AMERICA THAT IS THE CAUSE OF INFLATION. BULLS--T!

[@ishrendon6435]

Thats pretty much middle east here lol.sad but you have to.laugh at times

[@williammcbride4560]

Before they were gassed or shot in the head by creatures void of form, the women, the children and the aged prayed for a home in the sky, where it is always safe and warm. "What else could they do?" This man Timothy Snyder is the finest human historian of our era and his works relate to the entirety of time.

[@stuartwray6175]

'The entirety of time'?

[@mmartin7483]

@@stuartwray6175 Yes.. entirety of time = period he lectered on.

[@paulgrieve7031]

Crap What a stupid insult

[@JackSmith-pp9kv]

"History is about life. It's the story of individuals." Beautifully said.

[@MsBloodyFox]

Jack Smith you can kinda say it's about his story and individuals story or how someone views the world.

[@CM-pw7ri]

Yeah Yeah just said he was just waiting on on him I think he’s a

[@CM-pw7ri]

@@MsBloodyFox said that the bill would would would would

[@CM-pw7ri]

@@MsBloodyFox said said he’s

[@CM-pw7ri]

Yeah Yeah Yeah and and Aidan Aidan got a zoot he’s he’s he’s going bell and n got got a a lot more more like like that that one would be be better for me but It’ll just just puts it in

[@BigGuyBoleslaw]

If the USA was to Suffer as Eastern Europe Did The estimates in one English translated history book of Eastern Europe are that the countries where most of the fighting occurred lost "about one-third of their national wealth" or three times their highest GDP prior to 1940. Those countries are Poland, Hungary, and Yugoslavia. Losses in the western Soviet Union -- Belarus, Russia, and the Ukraine -- were higher still, perhaps one-half the national wealth. (Ivan T. Berend & Gyorgy Ranki, Economic Development in East-Central Europe in the 19th & 20th Centuries, New York: Columbia University Press, 1974, p.341) What represents one third of the United State's national wealth? One third of our wealth is in our housing stock (Statistical Abstract of the United States). So the equivalent level of destruction here in the United States would be if every single person in the country were to become homeless. If all of our housing stock, of every type -- suburban houses, apartments, dorms, prisons, hotels -- every single covered dwelling place in the whole of the country where a person could sleep overnight, from the Atlantic to the Pacific, from Canada to Mexico -- disappeared from the face of the earth. The value of USA transportation infrastructure and vehicles is about a sixth of United States national wealth. For the USA to suffer the same destruction as was suffered by Belarus, Russia, and the Ukraine, in addition to losing all our housing stock, all of our airports, ports, roads, railroads, and highways would be destroyed, as well as ALL bicycles, boats, cars, horses, locomotives, planes, rail cars, and trucks. In addition to the amount of physical destruction of housing and transportation, for the USA to suffer as badly as eastern Europe, ALL of our animal husbandry would cease. There would be no dairy or beef cattle, no chicken and eggs, and no swine. All silage would be burnt away. No one would have a pet of any kind. In most all of Eastern Europe, more than a quarter of the population was killed. In Belarus, more than half the population was killed. The combined populations of Belarus, Poland, and the Ukraine were 66 million in 1930 and by the war's end, more than 14 million were dead. For the USA to suffer today anywhere near as badly, more than 60 million people would be dead. This is an UNDERESTIMATE.

[@josebarberena9564]

Snyder unquestionably an authority in the subject. His work is amazing

[@alysonharley511]

Wow! Tim. Many blessings. Thanks for stretching my mind in new ways.

[@mattolson6718]

I’m a fan of good, accurate history

[@matthew-jy5jp]

Tim is very knowledgeable and it's more relevant than ever

[@kimfreeborn]

Timothy Snyder is not just a historian but a prophet of his own making. Like many who deliberate on the Holocaust he finds it prescient for the West. One might get the feeling that a denazification is currently warranted in Western institutions according to Snyder. While he would not come right out and say it, he has no difficulty in implying it.

[@paulgrieve7031]

A prophet of his own making? What gives him away? The T-shirt perhaps “I’m a prophet!”?

[@paulgrieve7031]

Denazification? You’ll need an army of social scientists and care workers and maybe a few units of nazis to point out who’s who. Starting now? Change you can believe in! There’s a problem…some of the American team think Utah is the capital of the USA, and might confuse it with Ukraine. There are many problems of execution including human fallibility. Not everyone is a clean as a whistle leader prophet of an unknown sect

[@kimfreeborn]

@@paulgrieve7031 Get an Antifa T-Shirt.

[@idicula1979]

A true scholar that presents the world and his subject matter in a new light.

[@Blonde111]

Interesting to listen to this in 2022

[@kingcobra7565]

Excellent. Thank you Professor Snyder.

[@davecollins6113]

Between this and the book Ordinary Men, which is also avail here on YT as an audiobook, it is scary how things are evolving once again in the last 3-4 yrs, the number of things that are re-occurring in various political arenas once again and the attitudes of the people involved.

[@mongauras]

Thank You T.Snyder

[@cinzialastrega1635]

I've learned so much from watching Snyder's videos. Of course I was broadly familiar with the history, but his insight and analysis make me feel a lot more intelligent.

[@Maverickpooderhoos]

I love it when he does the forceful nasal exhale after a passage, Such passion, it says "You'd better be listening to this because it matters". Timothy Snyder you are a great man.

[@kazkaskazkas8689]

20:22 That's for sure! Bloodlands bleeding again 😕

[@barrys3300]

It amazes me that deniers exist, how can anyone deny the brutality of man

[@fredflintstone8048]

I think that some would consider Timothy a holocaust denier due to the poor definition of the term and how it's used more as a pejorative term rather than anything meaningful. The professor questions accepted beliefs and understandings people have of what made up the holocaust and that is namely that Hitler alone killed Jews, that Auschwitz was the center or focus of Jewish extermination, and that millions of Jews were exterminated in that camp as well as other Nazi camps. If you present anything other than that long held so called 'accepted' narrative you will be considered by many as being a 'holocaust denier' when in fact the people who hold to that position are 'holocaust truth deniers'.

[@JamesPeers5454]

The hyperbole of Hollywood and conspiracy theories are always the main factors to emotional appeals.

[@gp9206]

Snyder is another of your deniers too it seems... When Snyder published this essay in early 2010, he evidently considered Bandera and the OUN to be an important, dangerous and disturbing element of Ukrainian history. However, by the time Bloodlands was published in October 2010, only eight months later, Snyder’s treatment of this subject had undergone a radical change. In his 524-page book, the operations of the Ukrainian nationalists received the most cursory mention. The index of Bloodlands does not contain a single entry for either Stepan Bandera or the OUN! The entire book devotes just one sentence, on page 326, to the murderous activities of the UPA, commanded by the OUN. In the course of 2010, as final preparations were being made for the publication of Bloodlands, Snyder decided that references to the crimes of the Ukrainian nationalists should be kept out of the book. None of the facts and issues relating to Ukrainian fascism raised by Snyder in his February 2010 essay in the New York Review of Books were raised in Bloodlands.

[@willnash7907]

Bloodlands was one of the best, most informative and most soulcrashing books I've ever read.

[@gp9206]

That account of his story has been completely debunked...see Grover Furr for instance...

[@willnash7907]

@@gp9206 A calcified gargoyle on an apparently life-long quest to exonerate Stalin of murders the old boy was practically boasting he committed. A Stalinist blowhard cortotionist, an expert in an entirely different field, who writes about the main historical questions concerning his fringe ideology. He just so happens, in every single instance of his research, to find history that completely agrees with his ideological positions. Almost as if he was looking exactly for it and nothing else, and would find it in irrespective of the facts or against them. On first pass it seems to me that three or four good passages from Snyder, Serge or Conquest weigh more than his entire bibliography on the subject.

[@gp9206]

@@willnash7907 oh Dear...let's not go to the original sources brigade have gotten to you too...do you really believe that Snyder believes his cartoonist account of history...when Snyder himself debunked it before he wrote it...!

[@willnash7907]

@@gp9206 Snyder is a Yale lecturer and they are big on original sources. Like, you can look up his RMP reviews and see students complaining because he expects them to read at least the abridged. He made his late career digging into eastern european archives, making connections and writing his books. His knowledge is clearly vast on the subject. Unlike your ideologue, he does not examine the Soviets as a question of political allegiance floating in the void but as a coherent and small if pivotal part of the history of the entire region from antiquity. Also Conquest who is on a similar line was distinguished for how extensively he linked up with Russian expats and nationals to get his info, which is why when the records were opened up in the three waves, Thaw, Glasnost, Collapse, he was validated again, and again, and again... Serge was actually there to witness much of the history.

[@gp9206]

@@willnash7907 Yale...is it... perhaps he went to Yell too... Snyder mockingly dismissed Russian references to Ukrainian nationalists’ mass murder of Poles and Jews during World War II as “a past that never happened” and “nonsensical and necrophiliac accounts of history.” But at an earlier stage of his career, Snyder wrote detailed accounts of the genocidal activities of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN). His article, “The Causes of Ukrainian-Polish Ethnic Cleansing 1943,” appeared in the May 2003 edition of Past and Present. This 37-page scholarly article focused on the OUN’s mass killing of Poles in Volhynia. The OUN’s military wing, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army [UPA], wrote Snyder, “killed about fifty thousand Volhynian Poles and forced tens of thousands to flee in 1943.” “By the end of April 1943,” according to Snyder’s account, “the UPA had perhaps ten thousand soldiers under its command, and had reduced much of Volhynia to mutual slaughter.” Snyder continued: Throughout April and throughout Volhynia, UPA soldiers surrounded colonies and villages, burned houses, shot or forced back inside those who tried to escape. In mixed settlements, the UPA’s security services warned Ukrainians to flee by night, then killed everyone remaining at dawn. This was a co-ordinated attack by armed men upon a leaderless and disorganized population

[@Nickauboutte]

Professor Snyder, I don’t know if you ever come here, but of you do, perhaps I could ask your thought on two things you mentioned: 1) Your comments about the importance of a relationship with the State for a Jewish person’s chances of survival (1/2 vs 1/20) notwithstanding, what specifically enabled a Jew in Germany to survive, in contrast to “stateless” Jews further east, considering that he had been stripped of all his civic rights years beforehand in the Nuremberg Laws? 2) What is the significance (if any) of the fact that the bloodlands largely coincided with the territory of the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or, more exactly, that state's territory prior to the Treaty of Andrusovo in 1667? I would also like to take this opportunity to thank you for this most interesting lecture and, of course, the book.

[@inotaishu1]

In case of German Jews I think factors in their survival was familiarity with the territory so to speak. Of course many of them had already been chased away from the Reich due to Nazi terror tactics. Then there were cases of Jews married to non-Jews, which offered some protection, and of course familiarity in the sense that most German Jews were highly secular and of course all spoke German, so the lets say "traditional" images of Jews did not apply to them, so on a personal level it is more difficult to see them as the "other" or a threat when you hadn't believed it since your earliest days. Of course this is mostly my speculation. One reason might have been simply because there weren't as many and the German forces were occupied with conquest in the East so German Jews were not seen as a high priority. We had a similar phenomenon with German Sinti and Roma, were in fact the Nazi policies were sometimes so confused that we have cases of people being drafted into the Wehrmacht just to be thrown out in 1942 when Himmler & Co had finally made up their minds. Of course that has to do with the partially Indian origin of Sinti and Roma, so that was another issue. In fact this "lack" of thoroughness is sadly something that is often used to claim the porajmos was not as bad as the Shoah or cannot be compared to, or wasn't unique, even though e.g. if yopu were 1/8 Jew, you were pretty much a non-issue, if your were 1/8 "gypsy" it was off to the camps with you (in those case we have the story of soldiers being sent to Auschwitz still in their uniforms). But that is a whole other lecture.

[@LauraBethDonna]

Dear Inotaishu1 (aka Professor Snyder) - Just now reading your response to pink pig (aka Jambonmauve) the fraction 1/8 jumped out. For me, dissonance between the precision and the evil of the Holocaust never ends. You are right that we must keep this in history and fight poetic or philosophical interpretations of the killing that suggest its facts belong outside of simple description. I mixed it up recently with an evangelical Protestant Islamophobe I know who posted something about the inappropriateness of making comparisons between Trump and Hitler, that this somehow was an insult to Jews, of which I am one and he isn't - not complaining, just saying. Comparisons, in his mind (and I understand your comments on the challenges and appropriate timing of comparisons) demean the sacred memory of the Holocaust. I presume he thinks the killings should remain some precious symbol of man's inhumanity to man, and not be mined for their instructive value in preventing re-runs. Another Messianic Jew and I objected strongly. Personally, I think it is just a distant cousin to denial - an effort to keep it out of the conversation. Unthinkable. Unspeakable. No, not really. The best minds were on it. Theologically, the Institute for the Study and Eradication of Jewish Influence on German Religious Life is documented brilliantly in Susan Heschel's The Aryan Jesus. Joseph Goebbel's, as a PR guy was no schlub, if you read his Principles of Propaganda. The medical experiments, the measuring of skulls, the sheer volume of work to defend the notion of die Herrenrasse and bring its bloody implications to life, the description of stolen artworks, the counting of corpses, the ordinary testimony of Eichmann all protest our inclination to proclaim the Holocaust so horrible, so "inhuman" that we cannot explain, understand or engage with it. It would be easier to dismiss systematic killings as barbarian, savage, as distilled evil that we civilized folk cannot really see and therefore, refuse to see when it starts to percolate again right under our noses. “History doesn’t repeat itself but it often rhymes.” - attributed to Mark Twain, probably in error Hey pink pig, the professor's response was worth waiting for, wasn't it? Let's now wait together for that other lecture. Laura Donna (aka TLDNR), Granby, Connecticut, U.S.A.

[@LauraBethDonna]

OK read your article in Vox this morning. So history Doesn't rhyme.

[@inotaishu1]

I am not Professor Snyder, I can guarantee you that.

[@LauraBethDonna]

oh you sounded very knowledgeable and when you mentioned another lecture, I thought you were! Case of mistaken identity

[@thomasvandevelde8157]

Very intelligent man, to say the least... Looking forward to this book, heard good references from other historic channels and personalities too!

[@suhailski]

I love the way Tim breaths as he speaks .

[@jasongray4517]

No idea why Richard Evans gave Snyder's book such a lukewarm review. It's a classic.

[@joannab7403]

Very impressive dissertation by a very well read, analytical, thorough, open minded, highly intelligent and committed scientist. Extremely engaging and relatable speaker. For his contributions to history of the region professor Snyder deserves to receive a Noble prize, literary or peace, or in both fields!!! Hats off! On a personal level, his gestures remind me of my late uncle's - who was one of most sincere, kind and wonderful men I have known - also multilingual, analytical etc .

[@usurur]

I like how he talks collective punishment for the Jews ,Germany ,holocaust and Russia. It’s an awesome and interesting lecture. Holocaust is very complex and has some very interesting causal aspects and punishments.

[@thatworksmedia]

This is extremely relevant now, eight years later.

[@RailfanSrikrishna]

Ukraine is the worst victim of communism and nazism

[@Justlatvian1994]

sri krishna Poland too

[@ciamciaramcia99]

"He claims the holocaust was initiated by Ukrainians and not a Germans." No he doesn't. In fact no one does. At least no historian.

[@ciamciaramcia99]

"He states the Holocaust (by bullets) was initiated after the attack on Soviet Union with collaboration of locals." That's true. "He claims the holocaust was initiated by Ukrainians and not Germans." That's a lie. I've listened to most of them and even read his book, he never states that ukrainians initiated holocausts, contrary, some reviewers even criticised him for white-washing ukrainian partisans by glossing over anti-polsih and anti-jewish massacres perpetrated by banderists.

[@pouinzy]

He is a courageous man to put to our conscience this reality that throughout the history until this day....sadly some humans strive in an awful way for more

[@stuartwray6175]

'this reality that throughout the history until this day' What does that mean?

[@paulgrieve7031]

@@stuartwray6175 ask Snyder!!

[@stuartwray6175]

@@paulgrieve7031 the syntax scrambles my brain - 'to put to our conscience this reality that throughout the history until this day'

[@paulgrieve7031]

@@stuartwray6175 I understand. He speaks loads of rubbish quite often but the books read quite well I suppose.

[@tomjohn8733]

Very interesting, thank you!

[@jacobzaranyika9334]

Thank you🙏 I'm will consider this later

[@charlespeterson3798]

I am listening to Patrick Leigh Fermor on You Tube. It is three books, A Time of Gifts and Between The Woods and The Water. It chronicles his trek from The Netherlands to The Carpathians in 1934, 1936. It is the greatest travel book I have ever read. Nazi terror is just emerging, there is, just on the horizon, Hell.

[@leorivers7759]

I believe I can count several "Bloodlands" killing zones as Professor Timothy Snyder described like those in Poland - the Ukraine today, a nation stripped of Nation Hood and the Ukrainians of citizenship. The Uyghurs in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, and several African states. And if certain people have their way, a La Frontiera of 10 miles on both sides of the US-Mexican border in which illegal migrants have no civil rights, and resident Hispanics have diminished respect economically and politically.

[@paulgrieve7031]

Quite a mixture You can invent a new language to change the world!!! One change you can believe in should be sufficient First: who is wrong?

[@briseboy]

You may have overlimited yurself in enlarging the real mass of atrocity to attribute inty regions with relatively minimal percentages of brutality, while omitting other regions with far larger and more organized denial or elimination of community and consequent actual organized, uncontested genocidal actions. "frontera" is the actual word, but does not now nor ever has meant borderlands between established nations, but referred to regions not completely exploited. Nuevo Mexico happened to be too distant, for example, for the new 1820s Mexican nation to administrate. As stopgap to the Comanche (Kamantsi, meaning "they like to fight") raiding/trading empire, expatriate Euros and Euroamericans disgruntled with their failure to take power or profit in some states of the still-new USA 1789 or post-1803, as you define it - emigrated in response to official Mexican grants in order to populate or assist control in that region. Limits on the power of those immigrants - for example they desired a cotton/slave economy, a real estate arrogation and sales economy, and related exploitation, and so in 1835 rebelled succeedi8ng only for a short period, as Mexican forces had to be gathered together over years to restore it. The expats, whose names and actual biographical exploitative bents were well-known to anyone familiar with their biographical materials, then quickly ran off to the nation they had previously hated, asking for special annexation by the USA. Receiving it, they became Texas, protected by the major force of the continent. Omitted in concepts such as la frontera, were the human residents. The Puebloan peoples had successfully rebelled for Twenty eyars in the the 17th century, until a Nuevo Espana force returned to quell the indigenous again, with the usual religious excuse and coercion. In Alta California (it did nto occur in Baja California due to xeric climate and tiny populations, though missions had also been established there to subjugate, enslave, control) the missionaries actively enslaved, and used Spanish military to murder, and recapture indigenous who were inherently more civilized than they. The so-called "mission indians" , while having differing languages and customs, due to their habitation of different habitat types, largely did NOT have a WORD meaning "war" - organized acquisitional/coercive violence. These tribal cultures reaching about to what are now California/Oregon borderlands (quite the "frontier" to murderous gold seekers and deforestation industries by the 1950s), had a culture of sharing, almost all avoiding exploitation and slavery of others until you reach the Modoc and the more northern Pacific tribes. It was a significant cultural boundary. So. The "Frontiera" exists solely in your mind, and NOT in reality. Humans, like OTHER animals sense molecularly, hormonally, pheromonally, and in the odd quirks of evolution cognitively, through sexual nonattraction to those with whom they sp[end developmental period before pubertal onset, outbreeding versus inbreeding. We tend to be eager to outbreed. This phenomenon occurs worldwide, through means i indicate, though it might require a huge effort to educate in biology, neuroscience, and evolution for you to remotely understand. Hood is also not a nation, the word is nationhood without caps. While uyghurs are a Turkic people, Han Chinese dynasties have for a coup0le tens of centuries attempted to exert cotrol over regions occupied by others. I fall prey to a probale error in ideation to which Professor Snyder addresses across time: Did the Denisovans and Neanderthals possess the territoriaality that seems common to Homo [not so] sapiens? Nearly all of us outside Africa are products of outbreeding and thus likely the natural friendly affiliative sense less than a majority now appear to sense in themselves due to overassessment of threat. From Indopacific Denisovan mix to other clearly identifiable genetic mixing, , evidence favors that you refer SOLELY to cruel coercive control by cantankerous choleric fear- and hate-arousers. the long steppe and the spottily fertile regions through which the Silk Road passed, have always been attractive to raiders/highwaymen. The peculiar cultural behavioral complexes of extreme mate-guarding (FAR older than islam) leading to honor killing, paired with obligate friendly generous treatment of strangers, point to the great highway of humanity persisting there. The Turkic tribes were among the earliest domesticators (enslavers? Think onthis if you know equine behaviors) of horses. From Arya- those who swept east from steppe north of Caucasus into India, and from whom the word Iran self-describes, to the numerous peoples who remained essentially seasonal migrators until recent times, high mobility took these very people - some of whom retain the very surname Uyg[h]ur, in once, greek or Hittite now-Turkey. NONE are innocent of the blame you ascribe to Chinese or US, or others. The na-Dene' peoples from subarctic to Tenochtitlan, were mobile. TH nahuaho - "Nahua" meaning the region around upper Colorado River basin, had swept into the Valle' de Mexico, calling themselves mexica, a word meaning Wolf, perhaps due to being a Wolf Clan, define to you, but NOT to me a region. For previous indigenous lived there, sometimes supplanting others since at least 13k ya. Nothing persists. I lived for far over a decade in a caldera, parts of which blew 2 inches of soil into Saskatchewan and Nebraska. Like bacteria, our lives are too short to detect slow changes, or to be alive during some fast changes. There is only compassion, or not. That you reserve yours for one or two or three individuals or tribes, or nations, infers your own cognitive limits. I suggest you expand them considerably.

[@DasPanda]

@@briseboy Poblano*, Nueva España*... typos happen.

[@deadcarnivora8648]

my wonder is what is it like to be an eastern European today considering the history of their country being so utterly drowned in blood and devastated only 50 years ago ???

[@Brianbeesandbikes]

Doomed for some repetition is seems ....

[@terraflow__bryanburdo4547]

@@Brianbeesandbikes And here it has come.

[@leomarkaable1]

I am not convinced that Stalin did not plan his war. The German armed forces came upon a disintegrated Soviet army in the opening days of the invasion of the USSR. The USSR was planning an offensive war to begin and the Nazis hit them first. Victor Suvorov stated the obvious:Stalin planned his WW2, and Hitler planned his WW2. Different wars, same location. Hitler wanted to murder the Jews, and Stalin wanted to conquer Europe to the Atlantic. Both were capable of murdering millions, but Stalin had a method to his madness. Hitler, contrary to all reason, simply was psychotic from the trauma of WW1 and hypnotized Germany, and utilized its might for his own evil ends. Stalin was a common criminal, a gangster with unlimited lust for power. I am reading Sean McMeekin, and have read Viktor Suvorov.

[@Scortcherman]

20:30 how ironic, the current fighting in ukraine started in 2014

[@McIntyreBible]

19:36, the historian makes a good point here!

[@houmaschieftain7526]

amazing.

[@vicm5272]

What book is this?

[@greekhuman8706]

Bloodlands

[@danielpaschjr3547]

The idea of death by gassing actually started in the Soviet Union at the beginning of the great Purge as a means of quickly doing away with more than one 'enemy of the people' at a time. It was found to be too inefficient and was discarded in favor of a shot to the back of the head. The Nazi Government either came up with their own idea of gassing or they had learned about it from the Soviet Government. Joel

[@huath266]

Great!

[@rianmonnahan]

This is a very interesting and moving lecture... Yet, after some thought, I wonder if the death of 14 million people in the "bloodlands" was a consequence of one indisputable fact. The bloodlands is precisely the fault line of the Nazi -Soviet confrontation. Could one not also argue that the breakdown of state institutions which the speaker highlights as an instrument and catalyst for mass murder were also a consequence of the clash of Nazi and Soviet armies?

[@mwhcrafting1951]

+rianmonnahan I believe he in part makes that point

[@davidkristan2602]

He argues in the book black earth that the breakdown of state institutions is one of the major factors to enable such high murder rates. The argument goes further and states that the double occupation in the bloodlands is the reason for the complete breakdown of institutions. So yes, that is his point.

[@HondoTrailside]

I think he would reject that as a primary cause as he rejected Arendt's ideas. The reason being that the killing started well before the clash of armies. In fact initial stage from 1933 was while they were essentially on the same side, and almost all the killing happened in the Soviet territory. This is similar to the rejection of the Arendt hypothesis on totalitarianism, where he squelched it by pointing out that the killing happened somewhere other than where it would align with her hypotheses. Rural not city. In this case we have geographic and temporal separation. However, there are other factors one could look back at the previous clashes as informing these events, such as WWI, and a half dozen other occurrences through history.

[@lingeary2654]

Snyder makes the point that Russia was killing in the bloodlands mostly before the war. Germany stepped up its killings there during the war. Each had a different agenda.

[@paulgrieve7031]

Keep the history coming!

[@RustyOrange71]

And here we are...

[@skronked]

And his name is like the guy next to your locker in junior high!

[@lemonlimelukey]

time-traveling invisible dreamer here

[@fredjones554]

4:04 start

[@OleksiiTheAngry]

The description of the video is PRECISELY the problem Mr Snyder is speaking of - failure to even MENTION Ukraine. One, because it's inconvenient for modern (especially 2023-modern) russia. Two, it's because the Germany's guilt and reparations and whatnot becomes misplaced - again, at russia, instead of Ukraine.

[@MarieGobeille]

🌬 Merci! 🙏

[@mooodswings]

Your standup comedy sessions are AMAZING!

[@crhu319]

Mass starvation happened in England, France and other countries during industrialization. This has perhaps less to do with any ideology of Stalin's and more to do with transition between traditional and industrial farming. In 1918-22 the Ukrainian population was almost wholly rural and subsistence farmers. In the late 1920s the effort to electrify, automate and industrialize the Ukraine is quite serious and sincere and in fact led by Ukrainians largely from around Kharkov. The heirs however of the two Ukraine republics centered on Lvov and Kiev remained an internal resistance long after their conquest by Tsarists then the Red Army. The Polish and Japanese threat was quite real, both being perceived as British allies, and Britain having more than any other power supported invasion of the USSR after 1918. These internal purges had a clear material result: when Hitler invaded in 1941 he had absolutely no intelligence about the new T-34 and KV-1 and KV-2 tanks and IL-1 anti tank planes. Thousands deployed already by June 1941. There's a recording of Hitler admitting he would not have dared attack had he known this, or certainly not have split forces across the Leningrad, Moscow and all important southern front. So Stalin arguably won his security struggle but paradoxically lured in the attack by not hinting at his true power and preparation. Re today it may also be the case that Russia has been underestimated and tragically a conflict escalated that the West - now in the position of Germany with a goal to "cleanse" Russian Orthodox from the borders of 1991 Ukraine incl Crimea (80-90% Russian) and Sevastopol (never in history under Kiev control) - is simply unable to win. Then as now, the ideology that prevails in the West blinded leadership to the depth of power and of supply chains and relationships available to Moscow. GDP is neoliberal nonsense & does not reflect the power of a state so self sufficient and internally autocratic and globally influential as Russia even today.

[@winstonwolfe340]

Interesting comment..... Talking about "underestimation": Since you seem to be evidence oriented, here are a few facts for you that show that Russia (to be more precise: the Kremlin) underestimated Ukraine (= the Ukrainian leadership as well as the Ukrainian population) and "the West" (= the governments as well as the majority of the population in the USA & EU & Australia). - invasion of Kiev failed, mostly due to underestimation of the will to resist & fight of the Ukrainians - Mariupol did not fall quickly, could only be taken at the price of total destruction. Significant underestimation of the above... - Taking full military control of Donetsk & Luhansk oblasts failed due to significant underestimation of ...... By that time, military help from "the West" had kicked in and made a difference. Another underestimation by the Kremlin, which had believed "the West" would not stick together and support Ukraine militarily. - Sweden and Finland are joining NATO, another underestimation by the Kremlin...... - massive exodus from Russia, by people that are not willing to support the war. 2nd wave of exodus is still ongoing. Another underestimation by the Kremlin..... Here is my prediction: - "the West" has started another arms-race, similar to the cold war. Russia does not have the economic capabilities to compete. Russia will lose the arms race like the SU did and will further ruin its economy along the way. - Ukraine will not be "de-nazified". You cant remove something that isn´t there. Ukraine will continue to be a sovereign country, electing its leadership without asking the Kremlin for permission. - as for the military situation: Russian occupation has reached its maximum, Russian troops will continue to be driven back (watch next: Lyman). The mobilisation in Russia will not change the momentum. "The West" will continue to supply weapons, & intelligence to the Ukrainian army that they will use in their favour. - the Russian economy will continue to shrink, standard of living and life expectancy of the average Russian will continue to drop. Putin will not care, since he has the means and the will to suppress any opposition. Russians will not revolt, since indoctrination and suppression are too strong in Russia. Not a pleasant outlook for Russians. I have a number of Russian friends and am sad to say this. Kind regards Winston

[@ThisNinjaSays_]

22:07 Timothy Snyder is Anglo-Saxon? 👀

[@EJStormful]

A very sophisticated mental trail in exploring the darkest territory recent history is hiding.

[@cloudage2956]

4:05 begins

[@frankle326]

Wonder what he has to say about Historian Grover C. Furr’s takedown of his book ‘Bloodlands’ describing it as a ‘litany of falsehoods’?

[@Dynamo128]

That Furr guy is worth less than the dirt on my boots, so idk why Snyder would care.

[@paulgrieve7031]

@@Dynamo128 that language starts feuds

[@VectorOfKnowledge]

Furr is a Stalinist POS.

[@lonestarbug]

He’s a lying Stalinist boyfriend.

[@alistairmackintosh9412]

A simple interpretation: Stalin was primarily a Russian nationalist.

[@julianshepherd2038]

He was a Georgian

[@philodonoghue3062]

I guess being Georgian he had something to prove. Like a certain Austrian.

[@danlivni2097]

@@julianshepherd2038 Stalin was so crazy he hated everyone. He killed millions of Russians, Ukrainians etc. The irony is what defeated Hitler was he double crossed Stalin by invading Russia in 41. It was really Russia who finished off the Nazis and it was the Russians who liberated all the death camps in Poland

[@paulgrieve7031]

He was a full-fledged commie!

[@joannab7403]

@@philodonoghue3062 exactly!

[@keberiokst7247]

im mostly impressed for how long he kept those hands up doing that for the most of the talk is an achievement of its own. only joking ofc

[@Sheehan1]

Horrifying, heartbreaking stuff

[@robertlee7560]

Is Putin going to use nuclear arms

[@JMGasser87]

Who did all the killing from the German side in Poland/Ukrain/Belarus etc. exactly? Was it essentially the SS and specialised Nazi-police or also regular Wehrmacht soldiers?

[@MrBandholm]

regular Wehrmacht soldiers did heavily contribut to the killings, rapes and destructions. It is believed that less than 5% of all wehrmact soldiers and administrators, might not be directly involved in the holocaust. Some historians believe now, that not one soldier did not at some point participate. But ofc there are degrees. The SS and Einsatzgruppen did the greater part of the direct killing (pulling the trigger).

[@eddymoretti3742]

We need brilliant historians like Timothy Snyder. Not hack ideologues like Darryl Cooper.

[@starfishw7138]

This is how our farm animals must feel

[@russochypriota]

“Most people who went to concentration camps also came out” - very questionable for Soviet PoWs in German camps.

[@russochypriota]

here come the Wehraboo’s

[@sgberta]

Anybody else think it was funny how he poured himself a glass of ice water before starting?

[@rogersteppens8025]

Scott Berta oh yes that was very funny.I must put that in my joke book

[@mmartin7483]

Extremely powerful lectUre on TRUTHS! Its time Hollywood made some truthful movies about masskillings etc and not the fantacies that were produced.

[@johnries5593]

I think the term "sophisticated" is entirely the wrong word for describing this lecture. Prof. Snyder was engaged in straightforward historical analysis, no sophistry involved.

[@jacpratt8608]

why have we looked aside? who had what to gain by encouraging this? Did AJP Taylor ever write about this?

[@pacajalbert9018]

Stále tu není vyriešená odpoveď na otázku kto je vini General alebo Doktor mimo obete a Hitlera ktorého postávali pred tribúny a predali vojnu kto je to bol

[@Brianbeesandbikes]

possible translation: There's still no answer to the question of what's the general or the doctor outside the obete and Hitler who stood before the tribúns and handed over the army because it's a pain

[@johnries5593]

iI think it would be enormously interesting to take a history class from Timothy Snyder, though I would suspect he works his students hard.

[@РоманПригунов-г1м]

There is a history class about Ukraine going now in Yale uni. They put all lections (6 by now) online, very interesting.

[@fresatx]

Moral of the story? Dont be born between Germany and Russia if you can help it.

[@henriikkak2091]

19:00- This is topical again

[@benjaminbuchthal7703]

this is weird - It feels like he has something interesting to say - and at the same time it seems to be all trivial and lose connections / analogies / weak story telling. I am confused and intrigued at the same time.

[@lizannewhitlow1085]

"A matter of policy." 🙊🙈

[@gandydancer637]

"Bloodlands"? I listened to some of this, but it didn't make much sense. Why include things as different as Treblinka and Katyn and the Holodomor, but not the Gulag? And 14 million is a lot of deaths, but Mao topped that all by himself. The definition of the "event" as a lot of deaths in the area subjected to both the Nazis and the Soviets seemed arbitrary rather than something arising naturally from the historical facts.

[@feereel]

The gulags were not in the area he is discussing... The whole point of his lecture was the effect that hitler and stalin had in poland belarus and the western ukraine from 33-45

[@gandydancer637]

@@feereel And I'm pointing out that limiting his field of view to that area is senseless if his subject is actually what he claims it is, "The Origins of Mass Killing".

[@feereel]

@@gandydancer637 ..the book seemed a lot different than the lecture.. read the book a few years ago and was an interesting take on all the suffering and death in the areas affected by the molotov, - rippentrop pact...

[@gandydancer637]

@@feereel * von Ribbentrop All I know is the lecture.

[@feereel]

@@gandydancer637 .. yes gerd von..

[@lairdgordonmcdoodle228]

Not a mention of Jewish responsibility for any Soviet killing

[@pacajalbert9018]

Herr Professor môžete od povedať na otazku kto predal nemecku vojnu Hitlerovi a postavili ho pred tribúny bol to doktor 😷 alebo General

[@ninajefferson4018]

The territory that comes first is Ukraine. The fertile territory of Ukraine is going to be the land that can be exploited.

[@luzalgarin9518]

Thank you so much for sharing with me an infamous fragment of the Hitler's Nazi horrendous regimen, via this lecture. It must have been a painful odyssey to recollect such memories and to recount them; they only echo the evilness of Hitler and his followers. The crimes and cruelties committed against my sons and daughters, my fathers and mothers, my brothers and sisters hurt me deeply, regardless their ethnicity and nationality. In Isaiah 2: 4, Jehovah God, the Creator and Source of life, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, promises: "He will be judge among the nations and will settle matters in relation to many peoples. They will turn their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. The nations will no longer raise their swords against each other and learn no more to wage war." My immediate neighbors are Jews and I am a Jehovah's Witness. Their hearts are superior than pure gold by far. They are extremely kind. The gentleman takes care of my trash can every Wednesday without my asking him to do so. They are lovely human beings, and they are not in need of the smallest improvement.

[@luzalgarin9518]

@Fabian Kirchgessner Here are two positive thoughts taken from the holy Hebrew Scriptures that will console all broken hearts: First-Promise recorded in Psalm 37: 9-12 says: "For the wicked will be eliminated, but those who put their hope in Jehovah will inherit the earth. Just a little while longer, and the wicked will no longer exist; you will look where they were, and they will no longer be there. But the meek will inherit the earth and fully enjoy of abundant peace." Second-Promise recorded in Isaiah 25: 8 says: "He will remove death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe the tears from all faces. He will remove from all the earth the disgrace of his people, for Jehovah himself has spoken." Have a very pleasant day.

[@lonestarbug]

Are you not bothered by the regime of the monster known as Joseph Stalin?

[@margyeoman3564]

This man is a wonderful historian, but I think a poor judge and predictor of the American political scene. This I got while reading his bio. Really great men in their field , do sometimes read broader fields wrongly.

[@MrBandholm]

In what way?

[@tahwsisiht]

18:07

[@maxheadrom3088]

When an American forgets what his own country did to the Native Peoples who lived there I start to think he's not a very good historian. BTW, that lasted until after WWII.

[@Ghostshadows306]

Is this lecture about the native people in America? DF

[@maxheadrom3088]

@@Ghostshadows306 1:04:00 where he claims the holocaust was unique. The genocide of native nations in the US was an important base for Raphael Lemkin's legal argument when he defined the crime of Genocide. Lemkin lost his whole family in nazi concentration camps during WWII. I realized something rewatching the lecture: he's putting make up on the nazis! I also realized he doesn't know what dialectics is: he thinks whataboutism is dialectics! BTW, the first victims of the holocaust (as defined by the Prof. of the Nizik Nursing School) were the Germans killed during Aktion T4.

[@Ghostshadows306]

@@maxheadrom3088 Don’t even know what the F you’re talking about. The lecture is about the Holocaust. Not the Native Americans. Is that too hard to understand?

[@lonestarbug]

Buffoon. Dope smoker? Socialist? Welfare scammer?

[@henrychoy2764]

Sire! The peasants are revolting

[@celestialteapot309]

I am looking forward to books on the deaths resulting from capitalism, imperialism, the genocide of indigenous peoples, and the billions yet to come, we may be waiting for some time

[@artmusic2]

"At no other time in European history were so many human beings deliberately killed as a matter of policy as in Eastern Europe between 1933 and 1945." All of his lectures on history include evergreen, factual points. Thank you, Professor Timothy Snyder - author of non-fiction book - "ON TYRANNY" 💯💥💫

[@markheithaus]

1:02:00

[@samlazar1053]

Dont worry about ww2.Worry about ww3 and what will happen to Europe as a result of ww3

[@mito88]

don't forget the bloodlands of the americas.

[@lonestarbug]

Buffoon.

[@johnbell5240]

How can people stop being naturally evil to themselves? Writing about it in the beginning. People are bad together and should be Spaced out. Different cultures should be respected and left alone. Today we ha Full Reign of Everybody

[@ditomito3356]

There is a link between what happened to the Jews with what happened to the Palestinians

[@erniebuchinski3614]

The link is that anti-Semites actually see a connection there.

[@lonestarbug]

Stupid. Are you a terrorist?

[@pacajalbert9018]

Vo filme kde hrá hlavnú úlohu Adolf veľmi dobre vidieť ako rozdelil svet na všetké svetové strany a hnutia skupín pod skupín štátov jazikov ktorý je z troch víno 😷 Doktor 😷 ktorý vojaka pred pisuje 🔫 ahoj 👋 obeť alebo doktor 😷 keď generál ktorý z nich

[@cv507]

big $ürbja ! ´´Öhridschinn öff centurice cataströphfies? ?

[@cjk6736]

I do not subscribe to his interpretations of history. Too biased.

[@richardgietzen4591]

Hello : good lecture I have always been haunted by the question why the haucost in Germany, before ww1 if you look at Europe , in Germany the jew was the most prosperious and integrated. Russia or France or Hungary would be the intelligent guess. I have just finished reading ( Against our better judgement ) by (Alison Weir) If what she said is accurate then I might have the answer. Got it on Amazon and down loaded it to my Kindle I would like you to read it and give me your opinion. I want a civil conversation , let's keep it to the facts. As an American and veteran , if this is true well 200,000 American lives where sacrificed. Remember Wilson was reelected on the promise that he would keep us out of that war. So a minority of Zionist Americans sacrifice those live for there personal agenda

[@chrissasin6676]

Nazi were not right wing!! Nazi and Soviets we totalitarianism twins!!!

[@unknowable2432]

Speak up

[@brain0nfire]

Many more died under urss communism than under fascist germany. It's not a race, but facts matter. Check the stats, it was like 20 million deaths caused by starvation, war and executions in the gulags.

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

That's not exactly true. More died due to Nazi Germany, its allies, and its fellow-travelers on the ground than by the Soviet Union in the same amount of time - and that makes a lot of sense considering there are a lot more 'chefs' in that kitchen, you get me? Additionally, one might say "well what about the entirety of the Soviet Union's existence?" To that I say, "what about it?" the disparity in timelines between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union make me inclined to discount that sort of criteria - one lasted much longer than the other so it stands to reason more would perish due to its practices but the fact that it's not such an easy tally to calculate really highlights just how much awful was packed into a relatively short amount of time when it comes to the Nazis and their allies.

[@hellinterface6721]

Yes Stalin ultimately killed more. But what will really rustle their jimmies is how much more Mao killed compared to both of Stalin and Hitler..

[@kibbo86]

He is excluding war.

[@jk1776yt]

Stalin, Hitler, and Mao are arguing this point in hell right now.

[@vanradosevich4249]

I, also, noticed that Snyder said that Nazis killed more than Soviets. This is where some tabular data would be helpful, dates numbers and references. Snyder talks about the psychology too much for me. I need the facts first.