The Orthodox Mass part 1

[@KevinBullard]

St Paul's outside of Houston in Katy TX is Western rite Orthodox Church and it is awesome and a great church. Fr Adam is glad to answer questions and has a great inquirer/catechism class. Love it!

[@larrylewis3573]

+ Dear Father Fenton, Thank you very much for this concise talk on the perennial Holy Mass of the West. I very much appreciate it. Sincerely In Christ Jesus, Larry Clarence Lewis London, Ontario, Canada.

[@WedgeBob]

Et in Sanctus Spiritus Deo! + Amen Seems there's a lot to be thankful for in these days, and it definitely does seem to drive home the point where the true beginnings of Liturgical Worship have started.

[@aaronvivar2819]

God Bless you and your parish Fr ☦️

[@christ_mark]

Wow, this sounds like the mass that the Catholic Church does in their latin rite 😮 God bless

[@jaketerry3287]

Is there a western Rite community in or near St. Louis?

[@BrandonTmusic]

Just really curious, are there icons to venerate? Didn't see any up front. Is the eucharist made of leavened bread? Curious the usage of pews and organ as well...

[@nicm.5338]

Icons are not usually placed in front of the altar area on stands in the same way that is done in the Byzantine tradition. However, icon veneration is still practiced. The hosts are leavened, and the use of the organ and seating are ancient practices of the west.

[@Godfirmations]

The icons are inside of the narthex, and are typically venerated before and after liturgy. Host is leavened.

[@eldermillennial8330]

@@Godfirmations Leavened but baked crispy.

[@AscendingViet]

There’s usually 2 icons in the narthex of this church in particular that you can venerate

[@BrandonTmusic]

@@nicm.5338 my online search tells me pews were introduced in the 14th century or so. Significantly post schism. Not a huge problem, it's not dogmatic

[@GUNS_jk]

Good information, I'm looking forward to part 2 👍☦️

[@lc97333]

Do you maintain the venerable Western practice of consecration at the Verbum, or do you adopt the Eastern change of Epiklesis as consecration post-Verbum?

[@b.d.4746]

Dissecting the canon to identify "the" moment of consecration is really a much, much later idea

[@lc97333]

@@b.d.4746 That's ignoring the point. Epiklesis after Verbum was never a practice of the Western Church. Most liturgies Western Orthodox bodies seem to have gone for Eastern Divine Liturgy with Western aesthetic by adding an Epiklesis after the Verbum.

[@b.d.4746]

​@@lc97333 I'm not arguing the Byzantine epiclesis "belongs" in the Roman liturgy. It is indeed present in the WR use of the Roman canon. I'd say it doesn't really "belong" there, but it's also not doing anybody any harm. (And it shouldn't be taken to mean the Mass would be "invalid" without it.) Bhe rest of the anaphora is just the Roman canon. That hardly makes it "an Eastern Liturgy with Western aesthetic," when 99% of it is the same as the Roman liturgy you'd find in a TLM. My original point was that it's not an either/or with respect to the consecration, and that it wouldn't make sense to try to make them contradictory by insisting one must be "the" moment of change (if I read the gist of your first comment correctly).

[@lc97333]

@@b.d.4746 Saying it is the "Liturgy of St Gregory" is by definition then, false, since St Gregory the Great would not have had an Epiklesis there. It is then an Eastern Liturgy with a Western aesthetic. My point was not regarding the necessary moment of transubstantiation. That's a secondary concern to the entire discussion of whether the rite is Western by definition or not. Epiklesis after Verbum is by definition Eastern, and takes it away from being a Traditional Western usage of the Divine Liturgy/Mass. Epiklesis after Verbum is because the East does not accept the Verbum as the time of transubstantiation, hence adding it takes one away from the Western Tradition for transubstantiation, and hence from the Western form of Liturgy. The argument that the rest of the anaphora is practically identical to any Tridentine Mass is also one predicated on a focus on aesthetics, rather than on the substance itself. There are forms of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer that are very similar to the Sarum Use. Luther's Deutsche Messe is inspired from the Cistercian Rite, and to some could be considered nearly identical to the Catholic Mass. Theology is what counts, not aesthetics; and the Epiklesis post-Verbum is something that defines a crucial difference between East and West, and takes the WO liturgy out of being the "Liturgy of St Gregory."

[@georgios7191]

They also probably don’t say the Filioque in their Latin creed, even if many of their Latin saints like St Leo did.

[@sueco_r]

Why is Chist clothed on the cross?

[@iknok4942]

could symbolise burial shroud or vestments

[@christianvanderveur1411]

It's a rendition of the iconography in a church built in Rome around 700 ad. This video talks about all the iconography (including why Christ is clothed on the cross) in St. Michaels kzbin.info/www/bejne/aZalaaywjKprqsUsi=kuEDTlETNEEpdTL_

[@andreybeliy1884]

Thank you for the informative video. Love and respect to brothers and sisters in US from Belarus. Glory to God!

[@carlosmurillo2264]

do you use 1954 or 1962 missal?

[@eldermillennial8330]

Varies a bit, some ROCOR Western Rite go back to the 1050 missal! Hardcore back to before the schism. Most of us are willing to accept the most compatible elements up to 1870, however. In some ways our style is similar to the Scrantonite Old Catholics in the sense that we do without the bulk of Trent or the most of the Gregorian Reforms on matters or doctrine, but do keep things like six candles instead of just two, as the hardcore reduce to, as well as allowing the pre-Fatima version of the Rosary, whereas the hardcore have gone back to the Pater Nostra Beads. Things like that.

[@-latin]

roman Catholic here just wanted to say hi

[@Jerônimo_de_Estridão]

Hi

[@taasch2505]

God bless you Fr. John and all the Orthodox Faithful of St. Michael's in Whittier ❤

[@gilbertarevalos9792]

🙏🏽🤝🏽🫡☦️💪🏽

[@gilbertarevalos9792]

Thanks. And you also.

[@albertusjung4145]

Orientation turned in the last 100 years? I think not. I am Catholic my whole life. First saw Mass celebrated towards the people (ad populum) instead of towards God (versus Deum) in 1970. Luckily ientered a seminary in that year where the traditional Mass continued to be celebrated and the high altar was at the wall, and never changed. I stay true to the traditional roman rite until this day.

[@fentonjw]

You're right. That's a misstatement. However, versus populum does begin in some places in the 1960s

[@guyparker1749]

🤲👏

[@stevejohnson5405]

❤

[@kelvinaheebwa2962]

Why is bro dressed like a Cardinal?

[@DanielAthos]

I don't know but it does look cool (I'm eastern rite orthodox)

[@protoeuro]

He's an archpriest so he's dressed like the Western equivalent of that (a monsignor)

[@fentonjw]

Cardinals dress differently. I'm dressed like a Latin Archpriest.

[@kelvinaheebwa2962]

@@fentonjw My reason for thinking that you're dressed like a Cardinal is that your cassock has scarlett red on the edges, as well as the pectoral cross (Monsignors do not wear these). My understanding is that purple is the colour for the Monsignor, similar to the Bishop.

[@GeorgeLCostnza]

Roman rite, but sure. Unless you've blended the various Latin rites such as Roman, Ambrosian, Carthusian, Gallican, etc. Return to Communion. Interesting video and interested in the rest.

[@JasperOrthodox]

Anathema.

[@iknok4942]

how is this heretical? they have same dogma, same theology, same saints, and have the full approval of the Bishops.

[@crispminer]

Go away

[@gilbertarevalos9792]

Maybe you are mistaken. Much love and respect to youband yours.

[@Lumbi2137]

Anathema from which church?

[@Chance_Rice]

By your name I can tell your an orthobro

[@JamesMathison98]

I’m grateful for the orthodox preserving western Catholic tradition. Please, and I mean this with all sincerity, become in union with Rome. I would love to attend the one in my town, but I cannot until you come home.

[@kd5tmu]

If the Orthodox West entered communion with Rome, the things about it you love would likely be lost.

[@JamesMathison98]

@ that isn’t nessecary the case. Take the ordinariate, where high church anglicans came to the church and got to keep most of their liturgy, it is actually remarkably similar to this liturgy in the video. There are many expressions of the Latin rite, this can be one

[@dewd9327]

Sorry man, not going to happen unless the dogma of Papal supremacy is revoked

[@JamesMathison98]

@@dewd9327 it’s a dogma of the church, meaning it is a divinely revealed truth. It cannot be repealed, and all Christian are called to profess it. I am asking you this honestly, as I have never had a substantive conversation with someone who disagrees with it. Could you tell me what your understanding of this dogma is, and why you disagree with it?

[@Тертий_В]

@@JamesMathison98no one bishop is higher in rank than any other. Even the patriarch of a Church is a position of honor, rather than authority. That is only one of many dogmatic innovations of the Church of Rome that we have issues with. So, in all reality, it is us beckoning you to shed the innovations and return to the Church.