The Overtaking Position. Advanced Motorcycle Road Skills

[@chrisbailey600]

A General Comment. Recently found your channel and been enjoying its content. Really like your philosophy of approach to biking. Been riding since 1973 (I'm 72). Probably in excess of 200,000 very safe miles in all weathers. IAM Advanced qualified and Blood Biker. Still loads to learn and have picked up some interesting and helpful 'tips' whilst viewing your videos. Keep up the great educational stuff you put out. "Every day's a school day" on our roads! Kind regards Chris Bailey

[@ayserides]

This is really useful. I haven't done a lot of overtaking having spent most of my riding life on a 125, so it's always nice to watch other people and understand their thinking a little bit

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@AyseRides thank you for your reply, I hope it helps, ride safe

[@martin9756]

just 'found' your videos, watched 3 now and have learnt so much, if you were based in South Yorkshire I'd book you to give me the 'extra' training I want to have and need having spent many years making it up and more often learning by mistakes as I went along. Thank You again and keep the videos coming. Martin.

[@MotorcyclePWR]

Thanks for watching the vids Martin, hope they are helpful. If i can be of any help feel free to message. Yes you are quite a distance from me, if needed i would hope there are some good post test trainers near you. All the best

[@mastercook62]

Same as! , Guy's cool as a cucumber 🥒 ;-)

[@mastercook62]

Great comment on the lifesaver observation being already updated prior to the overtake!

[@ifbbreezh3077]

Thanks for the helpful videos on your channel. I’ve been watching them constantly each day from the start of April up to my Module 2 test which I passed today.

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@Ifbb Reezh thank you , congratulations on your pass, ride safe

[@Kevb69]

Thank you for demonstrating, as well as being useful to see how you overtake also beneficial to see where and when you were using restraint

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@Kevin Beacham you re welcome, im glad this was helpful, ride safe

[@dennisbuckley]

Thanks for another excellent and very educational video, I watched all your back catalogue building up to my Mods 1&2 back in February. Thank you, great advice and tips! My only comment here regards the grey BMW, I think it deserves an extra element of caution before overtaking both it and the camper van. The jabbing brake lights clearly suggest the driver wants to make 'better progress' than the camper van will allow, but he or she is so close to the rear of the van, any view of clear road in which an overtake is possible will come a lot later than it would for anyone positioned further back. By time the driver thinks 'ooh, I can go' and pulls wide, they will have no idea of the whereabouts of that motorcycle that was behind them a moment ago...

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@Dennis Buckley thank you for your comments and I am glad you have been watching the videos! Great observations about the BMW behind the camper, quite right. The risk of a multiple overtake is indeed that one of the vehicle overtakes carelessly when the bike is making the overtake. Thank you for raising this issue. I was just glad the camper turned off when it did! All the best, ride safe..

[@MGman100]

Another good instructional video and it was a good idea to revisit certain aspects because overtaking is the most dangerous manoeuvre on a motorcycle. I have taken your advice before and hang back before moving forward in anticipation of an overtake. Being a fairly new rider I still need to fine tune on occasion because I'm missing opportunities to overtake as I'm a bit too far back or occasionally could choose a more flexible gear but in that case I just roll off the throttle and drop back. Better to be safe than sorry. My main concern is other motorcycles though, I haven't had any incidents but on a couple of occasions have had other motorcycles overtake that have closed extremely quickly and haven't picked up on mirror checks because of their speed. Just something to be wary about, especially now the weather is improving. Keep up the good work 👏

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@MGman100 thank you for your comments. With experience (and extra training!!) overtakes will become easier and safer, though it sounds as if you take a sensible approach, and "if in doubt leave it out" will help no end! Definitely wise to be wary of other bikes who may overtake without necessary care and put other bikers at risk, ride safe

[@stags-gr8to]

I thought this was another excellent video, thank you. I particularly like your explanation about not necessarily needing shoulder checks, from 16:50 to 18:25 👍

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@stags7075 Thank you for your comment, im pleased you found it useful, all the best , ride safe

[@josephconrad9725]

Hi there, happy to see the season’s started again and you’re posting more videos to learn from. Having started riding a couple of years ago, I was lucky to find a reference to Roadcraft, which allowed me to build a mental model of riding on public roads safely. Unfortunately in my country (belgium), it’s not really part of training, and road users like to think that the safety space I leave in front is an invitation for them to sneak into it… no wonder we have one of the highest mortality rates on European roads anyways, thank you for sharing your experience and addressing the comments. As I was learning from different sources, I also picked up the idea of trailbraking, and while a good technique to have, I thought your analysis spot on, it basically pushes to ride at higher speeds and in my case, with less enjoyment of the ride. After 2 years on a 500cc bike, I moved up to a ‘12 RT this January and while heavier, I feel much more safe when overtaking given the available power as well as the great feedback the bike gives in all situations, and if there’s no room for overtaking, I can just as well just enjoy the magic carpet ride. I look forward to the next post.

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@Joseph Conrad Hi Joseph, many thanks for your interesting comments. Im glad you are enjoying the ride of a 12 RT, fabulous!! Im glad the videos are useful, ride safe and best wishes from the UK

[@neilbuddo9297]

A very useful video - clear from theory through to several examples. Loved the tip at the end about regular judgement checks - I’ll be trying this.

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@Neil Buddo thanks Neil, ride safe

[@richardgiles2484]

Really helpful and I'm with you on your actions on overtaking 👍

[@MotorcyclePWR]

Thank you Richard

[@blackdotkiller1]

Great Video good to see you back out and about 🏍👍 at last the sun 😁

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@black dotkiller many thanks for your comment. Yes, I thought i ought to get the camera out again!! I have been riding all winter and doing some teaching, but glad the weather is making the bike more enjoyable. all the best

[@SammyHerring]

Great video going into some more depth on advanced riding overtakes!!

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@Sam Herring thanks sam, all the best

[@AW8UK]

Good to see more content. I will simply repeat my initial comments I made on the last overtaking video...."Spot on in every regard....Thanks "

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@AW8 Many thanks AW8, much appreciated. I hope you are still enjoying your biking. Ride safe, all the best

[@AW8UK]

@@MotorcyclePWR Yes thanks...Still enjoying. I have been working hard at continual development. IAM (track based ) skills day soon & Bike safe (road session) soon after. Hoping to develop further &/or get some meaningful feedback 🙂

[@geoffgauci7590]

I’m 52 years of age and twice I’ve tried doing my CBT and not come away with my certificate because the guy thought I was not prepared to go on the road safely. I tried doing the figure of eight and for some reason I couldn’t do it, then when I tried to do the left downtown was absolutely no problem, but trying to do the right hand, turn I was finding it very difficult for some silly reason. I keep getting frustrated with myself. I understand people have done it for years, but I’m just getting into it. My aim and goal is to do my A license then once I’ve done that I want to do loads of courses to learn how to do adventure riding that’s my goal I’ve set myself for

[@MotorcyclePWR]

Thanks for your comments Geoff, keep persevering, many schools should be able to offer extra lessons to help you get ready to complete your cbt. This helps with the areas where you need more time to practice and gain confidence. Good luck with it

[@geoffgauci7590]

Thank you very much for your advice I’m gonna keep going so I can get my full license hopefully soon and when I do that hopefully I can come out to USA and come and see ya if that’s okay whereabouts in US you are I don’t know but I’d love to come and see you if that’s okay

[@rcraven1013]

The Police Roadcraft was taken from their original road safety guide published by the police since 1937. It was and still is in general for training police officers in order that they be safe under many road circumstances. Taking into account all the circumstances that can occur on the road and in order to keep police officers as safe as is possible given that they, in the execution of their duties may have to do things that we civilians have not got to do. So it was not originally published primarily for civilian usage but for trainee police drivers and riders. It still contains some practises and procedures that are or were required of police officers but are not required or for consumption or consideration by all. Things that civilians should basically not be doing. Talking as if to police officers now. Overtaking and the use of a closer following on distance in any overtake is an example of where the general rules of safety which have to obeyed at all times are unfortunately by necessity circumnavigated but to also attempt to give the safest result possible. An understanding of the greater danger created but in order to reduce risk or mitigate the effects of that risk to enable an officer to actually overtake and still maintain the best positioning for safety possible to and to enable them to perform their duties. Under normal patrolling duties the advice on overtakes is to only overtake if there is a NEED to do so. So its clear that a safe following distance is to be maintained at all times and is recommended unless an overtake becomes NECCESSARY for the purposes of ones duty. Then the increased risk is to be assessed and balanced with a procedure that would in some way try and keep the officer in the safest position possible understanding the complexity and increased danger of the task at hand.

[@twistymountain]

Hi, you have made a really good series of videos here, I'm going to suggest some to my associates (IAM associate members) as well as some of my own customers. What I'd really like to know is how you get such good voice quality and 50 and 60 mph!!?? May I ask what mic you use and how you have set it up please?

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@Twisty Mountain many thanks for your kind comments, much appreciated. I hope the videos are helpful to your associates and customers. So i use a GoPro Hero 8 Black, with a Sony Lavalier Electret Condensor Omnidirectional 2k ohm impedence microphone wired for stereo which fits into the Hero8 Media Mod. The mic sits behind the chin bar in my helmet and has a standard foam wind cover fitted. I hope this helps, best wishes.

[@rcraven1013]

At 12.30 plus nice comments about being over 2 seconds behind a large lorry as one needs the view. I all too often see motorcyclists travelling behind such lorries and are maybe no more than 20 ft behind them and they would argue that its because the overtake would take less time on the wrong side of the road thus less danger but the longest and greatest danger is one that they have already placed themselves in. It's greater than the danger in overtaking . A few seconds in an overtake but a lot of time behind others. A greater dangerous position behind a lorry

[@davec3459]

Really useful thank you

[@MsDenver2]

Are you saying that to overtake you still have to be within the speed limit? I have always used the motorcycle power to get past in an overtake as quickly as possible so this means for a very short time I will go faster than the speed limit but only to get past quickly, that extra speed and acceleration gets me past quicker but if I still have to remain within the speed limit then I’m at more risk , it means I probably won’t overtake.

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@Donna Adams hi thank you for your comments. So i do agree with what you say, however, speed limits are absolute without exemption, except for fire, police and ambulance purposes. It could be argued that if you cant overtake without speeding then it shouldn't be done; there is a viewpoint thought that a small excess to overtake safely would be acceptable in some eyes. I consider this scenario. You overtake and are identified by a police speed laser device which records you at that exact moment. If you are in excess of the limit you are liable to be prosecuted, regardless of how long you maintained that speed. However, a police officer following in the same scenario may witness your overtake and see that you exceeded the limit momentarily and then resumed to the speed limit afterwards so uses the discretion to take no action. Ultimately the decision whether to overtake or not rests with the rider/driver. I hope this helps.

[@MsDenver2]

@@MotorcyclePWR yes you make a good point about the police later. It is difficult because you want to use speed to overtake as quickly and safely as possible. I think the answer like you said is to only overtake a slower vehicle if you can do so within the speed limit. I'm sureci will talk about this question again when I do some advanced training. Thanks i enjoy your videos very much as they make you think.

[@rcraven1013]

@@MsDenver2 Dona if you are overtaking and speeding in training at any time or your exam at the end of any Advanced Course you will be failed as its a NO NO at all to fail to keep to the speed limits. At one time some trainers and examiners had an attitude that tho we should not speed it would be ok or acceptable if it were done infrequently but if you get into that frame of mind of speeding occasionally then you might fine yourself doing it every time or frequently. It is considered a bad practise and not to recommended at all as you will then be increasing your danger not only to yourself but to other road users around you. The same applies if you were coming down from say a 50 mph road to a 30 mph limit. Most road users pass the signage and then slow but as an Advanced Rider you will be expected and required to be at that lower speed as you pass the signage. That is why you must see if you are being closely followed as other road users will not expect anyone to slow down prior to the signage and that could lead to increased danger but it is a requirement otherwise its again a fail.

[@rcraven1013]

@@MotorcyclePWR Your point of allowing the discretion of the officer as to whether one is done for speeding is unfortunately going to be a wrong presumption.That officer may have his mind on other issues and so decides not to proceed against you. That does not make your decision right in any way shape or form and adding to that that one might be being followed by a police car then its about possible stupidity as well by overtaking at the wrong time and place.The speed limit is the speed limit and by riding in excess of that limit you are breaking the law and there are no excuses for that infraction. By sometimes speeding whilst overtaking whats there to stop one doing it all of the time and saying I only got caught once. Pluss if you look at about the second or third overtake he was doing some 64/5 mph in his overtake.tut tut.

[@rcraven1013]

Unfortunately if an overtake is not on once you have moved closer to the vehicle to be overtaken then the latest version of Roadcraft clearly states that you can return to that closer position or pull back to a safer following on position. [ Roadcraft 2020 page 218 para. stage 3 overtaking, 'if you see that the manoeuvre wouldn't be safe, return to the following or overtaking position as appropriate' So it now encourages or enables all drivers and riders to maintain a tailgating position even after failing to overtake and it does not give any duration for that following or closer position. You could spend the next half hour in that closer position just waiting for an opportunity to overtake to arise and that can't be right?.

[@rcraven1013]

IF you are closer to that vehicle in front say 40 ft. at 40 mph and it brakes hard or collides with another object in the road and comes to a complete halt. It is now a brick wall in front of you. Then as you are doing 40 mph on a country road in one second you will have already travelled some 60 ft. Even in 2/3rds of a second your distance would be 40 ft so you will have absolutely no space in which to avoid colliding with that vehicle. If however you were the safe stopping distance given in the H.C then you would have a full 120 ft in which to stop,. 40 ft to realise that you needed to stop and the remaining 80 ft in which to brake in. Which sounds safer to you? Much is made that one will spend less time on the wrong side of the road if one were to be in the closer position,. However that overtake might take 30 seconds or less depending on space and speed obtained but the time taken to achieve that position from the safer following on one to the closer overtaking one might make you tailgate for a minute or more. I have seen videos of bikers tailgating others for 10 mins or more even when there are white lines on bends they fail to move back to a safer position. Most rear end shunts involving bikers are actually caused by bikers travelling too close to other vehicles. Unable to stop in time and following, hoping for an overtake. Don't be a numpty, Don't Tailgate.

[@highdownmartin]

If the road is clearly a no non for overtaking opportunities, then i mentally fold my arms and sit back and enjoy the view, with a nice gap in front of me. Hanging on to the overtaking position for miles on end is stressful and tiring and will naturally become the default setting where you actually let you guard down even though you still think you’re as sharp as a tack. Then you get caught with your pants down!

[@spudgunson]

Like any written guidance, some will criticise it if a concise solution to every scenario isn’t covered. Road craft when introduced apparently reduced the incidence of collisions etc dramatically. So it has serious benefits when learning safe riding. It isn’t however an instruction manual that defines every response for all circumstances. It is a system, flexible to be applicable to any circumstance. Tailgating is an offensive, so it doesn’t encourage tailgating however moving up to overtake position is essential for minimising the time spent on the opposite side of the road. Moving up improves vision (information phase) ahead and let’s the driver about to be overtaken know the riders intend. Starting the overtake from the ‘following’ position in my opinion promotes excessive accelerating and the likelihood of speeding. Opinions that overtaking by the general public should not be encouraged and should remain the preserve of the emergency services reminds me of the argument that speed limits should be constantly reduced, except for emergency services. What is important is that as riders we are competent to control our machines in all eventualities and that includes overtake manoeuvres. Overtaking isn’t compulsory and is always a decision for the rider.

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@andrew simkin thank you, very well put. Spot on...

[@rcraven1013]

@@MotorcyclePWR Crap ! He has a good use of arguments but basically he is defending a tailgating position by saying he is trained to do so and that's ok cos. its then not illegal? So are most drivers taking the DVSA test and look at all the accident stats that confirm otherwise. . With that state of mind one will and can justify just about anything that a so called Advanced Rider can do on a bike and under whatever circumstance that he sees fit. To break the law whenever they want on the understanding or premise that they are more qualified to do so more so than other morons on our roads. As such that person is a danger not only to themselves but to all other road users and should not, with that attitude be entitled to call themselves an Advanced rider. Many a rider with that, I can do anything that I want and like without question usually ends up dead or seriously injured with others saying I knew he would come to a sticky end. but rightly or wrongly that was his way. I know cos as a retired police officer for over 20 years I have seen people on the roads with bad attitudes take not only themselves out but unfortunately take out innocent others on the way.

[@paulmckell7726]

Heyup , I've been riding 49 years and I've never took notice of stopping distances etc, they mean nothing in the real world ,but the 2 second rule is what I use , TommyTickle

[@rcraven1013]

Any motorcyclist or driver worth his salt and with any experience would be able to say without question just how far they should be behind other vehicles Safe distances according to either the H. C. or the DVSA. Advanced riders in the police would know and so should all advanced riders but not particularly newbies on 125s etc.

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@r craven yes agreed. But the reality is many drivers riders dont know, and whats worse is that many dont even think about it or dont care.

[@rcraven1013]

@@MotorcyclePWR A Never a truer word spoken. Reality Sucks doesn't it.

[@rcraven1013]

@@MotorcyclePWR That is because of a lack of understanding and proper training and the sloppy way some instructors believe that keeping only the Thinking Distances behind other vehicles is ok and safe. They follow the rule of Separation Distance by their masters the DVSA which basically gives a cart blanch for any driver to Tailgate any other when around town or otherwise. It isn't safe but try telling them. Many don't know what is a safe distance as they apparently hold the stopping distances in the H.C in disrepute. Anyway its easier giving the 1 foot per 1 mph distance ,the Thinking Distance only and teach that instead.

[@jjnewman65]

Catch, match, dispatch 💥

[@rcraven1013]

'If the vehicle in front slows and stops then you can slow and stop also without colliding with him'??????. Thats not the point at all. I wish that experienced riders and drivers know different but they still use this defence to tailgating every time. Its not when the vehicle in front shows us his brake lights and slows and perhaps stops its when that vehicle in front for whatever reason in an emergency brakes hard and or stops suddenly and unexpectedly and comes to an immediate halt in front of us. Then try and slow and stop when only one is one second behind or less., You will be mincemeat and Police Roadcraft should not be instructing civilians in this manoeuvre at all. Leave it for police officers only as that recommendation of being so close and in the event of failing to overtake it does also recommend returning to that insidious one second position again and again.

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@ r craven Hi, thank you for your comments, appreciated as always. You write "If the vehicle in front slows and stops then you can slow and stop also without colliding with him'??????" Where does this phrase come from please, or are you quoting " if the vehicle in front slows or stops make sure that you too can slow or stop without colliding"? Regarding advanced riders using a defence to tailgating, a definition of tailgating is driving too closely to the vehicle in front. Therefore to prove tailgating is happening, "too closely" will have to be defined taking into account all circumstances present at the time of the event, not an arbitrary stopping distance calculation. Of course you are right, we should not be putting ourselves in a position where we have to emergency brake. Regarding your police vs civilian comment, police are civilians and are not suddenly a super driver because they hold a warrant card. Whilst its true that emergency services personnel may benefit from a high level of training and reassessment, they are human like the rest of us. Some police officers are poor drivers, many cannot qualify or be suitable to train to Advanced Class 1. Yet many non police officers are capable of driving and riding to a very safe and high standard. Its about the individual and the training. As I have replied to another of your comments, if the Police Foundation and the various advanced organisations are still using and teaching the 3 part overtake technique despite many reviews of training practices fed into by information from police drivers/riders and crash analysis, then surely this technique is not as dangerous as you suggest? I see no issue with Roadcraft mentioning this technique, however, perhaps it should be something trained in more depth than just referred to in a book? I do not recall a recommendation to return to a 1 second gap in the event of a failed overtake, but to return to a normal following position is what I was always taught. As I hoped to clarify in my video, one does not linger close to the vehicle in front, it is momentary, and if of no use, return to a standard following position. I was first police Roadcraft trained in 1993 and can honestly say i have not once had a negative experience from overtaking using the techniques I was taught. Never have I been in a position where I was so close that I could not react sufficiently. A big part of the technique is not to move into the overtaking position if circumstances could result in the vehicle in front needing to react to a hazard and change speed/direction. So if an overtaking manoeuvre is safe for the police, why is it not safe for anyone else?! I was always taught that just because you have blue lights it does not give you extra rights or the ability to defy the laws of physics! You will still have a collision if you get it wrong, blue light or not! Maybe the danger arises from techniques being poorly trained, misunderstood and misused. My video attempted to raise awareness of this fact. If one does not understand such things they should not use them. But the fact remains that overtaking on UK roads is often poorly executed and contributes massively to the KSI RTC's. Thank you for your interest and creating a discussion. All the best

[@MGman100]

You seem to have a lot to say and all of it negative. These are without doubt the most comprehensive instructional videos on KZbin but you seem to be intent on trying to find fault with them. Haven't you got anything else to do?

[@rcraven1013]

@@MGman100 I am a retired police officer and for decades now have been fighting for the rights and the improved safety of motorcyclists, of which I have been one for some 57 years or so. This is a conversation piece with a secondary purpose of hopefully making riders think before they move[ before they commit to an overtake ] into a dangerous position. It appears to me that some riders don't believe that being 50 ft behind a HGV and doing 50 mph that that is not a dangerous position where it is well established that one cannot STOP in that short distance and at the speed . If anyone can convince me otherwise I will eat my words. It hopefully will bring to the attention of those in positions within the governments and police and the training bodies that there is something wrong with our training especially on bends and overtakes. They are still the greatest dangerous manoeuvres out on country roads with too many incidents and certainly far too many deaths and serious injuries.

[@rcraven1013]

No. Not at the moment. As other would say Thank you for your comment it has been noted but in your case its been disregarded as its of little or actually no value at all. Ride Happy and live long. @@MGman100

[@johnflavin1602]

@@MGman100100%

[@rcraven1013]

Tailgating had become one of the most prevalent of road traffic errors and causations for collisions. It's not only an offence against the law but it's downright dangerous and even more so when one is instructed to take up that position in the first placer. That to me is indefensible but you try and argue the point with most advanced riders and you will get short shrift as they would also argue that by starting an overtake from than position means that one spends less time on the wrong side of the road and therefore its safer???????? Notwithstanding that one has already placed oneself in the very vulnerable and dangerous position of tailgating for a hell of a lot longer in terms of time and distance and danger than any overtake would take.

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@ r craven Indeed tailgating is a problem, and an offence. As regards crash statistics as one of the most prevalent causes of RTC I am yet to view such data, but would be interested. That said, we need to be mindful that crash data may be inaccurate, as only serious / fatal RTCs are investigated by highly trained officers, where all other police attended RTCs have the data completed by officers who may not be traffic trained and is only opinion as to actual primary and secondary causations. As regards being instructed to tailgate, no one worth their salt as you say would instruct anyone to tailgate. Your refer to advanced riders starting closer and using the "overtaking position" as more dangerous than the overtake itself. We know that overtaking figures highly on serious/fatal RTC stats. These collisions will largely be due to a poorly assessed overtake and hitting another vehicle head on. I am yet to see stats that say that using the overtaking position resulted in these RTCs. If the Police Foundation and the various advanced organisations are still using and teaching despite many reviews of training practices fed into by information from police drivers/riders and crash analysis, then surely this technique is not as dangerous as you suggest? Maybe the danger arises from it being poorly trained, misunderstood and misused. My video attempted to raise awareness of this fact. If one does not understand such things they should not use them. I was first police Roadcraft trained in 1993 and can honestly say i have not once had a negative experience from overtaking using the techniques I was taught. Never have I been in a position where I was so close that I could not react sufficiently. I do not agree that being slightly closer to the vehicle in front for a moment is more dangerous than being on the other side of the road. I have seen many overtakes where the overtaking vehicle on the other side of the road has put themselves in massive danger due to duration or location and they have only been unscathed due to luck of no oncoming vehicle appearing. If a driver/rider is going to get it wrong, consider the two scenarios, 1. run into the back of a braking vehicle whilst under braking yourself as speed for both of you is reducing because your overtaking position was poorly assessed.. or 2. Overtake from way too far back with lots of ground to cover, be on the other side of the road for a long time, miss a junction, or mis assess a bend and find an oncoming vehicle at speed with no escape route and hit it head on with both of you doing circa 60mph. Which one of the two will be likely fatal? The whole problem with driver training is it is lacking in practice and full understanding. And human error is ever present. Stay safe

[@rcraven1013]

@@MotorcyclePWR With regards to your last paragraphs we can all make up scenarios of what might happen. . What I am saying is that yes the closer overtaking position is wrong from start to finish and should not be presented in training as its against the law and that it is also extremely dangerous as it puts not only the rider at risk but also the drive and passengers in the vehicle in front. That is not all if one cannot stop in time a motorcyclist or car driver may have to swerve and in doing so may mount a kerb and collide with pedestrians or cyclists, mowing them down . Tailgating puts every other road users in danger. You want a story. Here is true story. no fibbing Several years ago on the A 65 there were a group of riders travelling north from Skipton towards Devils Bridge, Kirby Lonsdale. The beginning of that A 65 is rather bendy and has a 60 mph speed limit. The leading rider was an experienced advanced rider instructor and examiner and all was going well. At first. It was soon to turn otherwise. As he was leading the group ride on those bends he was approaching a right hand bend and for some reason traffic was slowing and stopping on the oncoming carriageway. This did not overly concern him his speed was good, not fast for the bends, the surface of the road was good and dry and visibility was good. So all was well and he was merely proceeding ahead and approaching another bend with cars coming round it and braking. as they do for this obstruction on their side. However as the last vehicle seen in the line was braking after that bend another vehicle was coming round the bend and apparently he was tailgating and failing to properly judge the space to the car in front of him. Being unable to stop in time to avoid a collision he swerved to his offside and directly into the path of that motorcyclist killing him instantly. So don't tell me that Tailgating is a mere bump or shunt. Tailgating is and CAN BE A KILLER. There have been instances on motorways where multiple deaths and injuries have been caused by following vehicles being unable to stop and running over, yeas running over vehicle in front crushing the passengers. . National Highways in their 2016 accident reported that some 7000 plus persons were injured and some 55 killed on their roads and that by far the most common cause of this carnage was and still is Tailgating. It accounts for about 70 % plus of all collision or incidents on their roads. When it comes to smidsys at road junctions around town the police officer putting the cause down as inappropriate speeds or otherwise they were probably due to drivers Tailgating others and that was the cause or a contributor cause of most collisions. on these roads. Its a hidden KILLER, the ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM and one that is not taken seriously by many institutions including the police and all training bodies. Its about time it should be addressed by all road safety partnerships and in reality with being taken serious.

[@MotorcyclePWR]

@r craven thank you once again for your input here. I think in general terms you and I will agree on many road safety issues. I will not argue with you about tailgating either! I detest it and the implications of it, and your recollection of that tragic event above bears this out. However, i still will hold Roadcraft and the overtaking position as acceptable, but as with all things with caveats, as "too close" will have variances. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one! But yes, i do wish all agencies would work much harder to reduce and prevent tailgating, but as with most driver error road safety issues, they are largely ignored and we go back to excess signage, markings and speed limits to make our roads "safer".

[@notcrediblesolipsism3851]

​​@@MotorcyclePWRsomewhat unrelated I did a motorbike safety course with the police and on a 40mph two lane dual carriageway a youngish Audi women was following an overtaking vehicle no more than 3m from them, driving right past the convoy of bikes with two police officers. She was utterly unconcerned about her own driving and seemed oblivious to the fact that she was driving dangerously and illegally in view of the officers. I regret not asking the officer about it but I'd be very interested in the opinion of traffic police of this driving style. This cemented in my mind that tailgaters are oblivious to the fact that they're dangerous and that there are no repercussions for driving in this way. On my bike I now let these drivers past and deal with it as I would a force of nature, I can't influence them but I can control my own reaction to them. For what it's worth I agree with your stance on overtaking and the overtaking position.

[@fuglbird]

For UK riders only. Otherwise just waffling. Dislike and move on.

[@mosshague3313]

@fuglbird rude comment. Only in uk? Do different laws of physics apply on road in other countries or do you not crash and die there. Guess you’re another ignorant self professed armchair expert. People should dislike you and move on. Stay safe if you can manage it.

[@highdownmartin]

Some of us in the uk want to improve our Road skills. Personally I aspire to be perfect, like everyone else on two wheels in all other countries. That’s an example of British Sarcasm, by the way,in case it went over your head. Which it probably did, but then we’re great at being patronising as well.