The Parasites RUINING Your Raiding Experience

[@menardyxiv]

I really hope you enjoyed this video, it took a lot of hard work to put it together. Read the description for some context. And again, just to ensure everyone sees this: *The DRK in the clip is NOT the one the story is about.*

[@gwizzly]

idk what I might do if you stop uploading

[@justwatching6118]

I hope I won't meet prog liars again when I continue tomorrow to prog Satasha

[@Kumomo92]

Not gonna lie, you had me there for a min 😂

[@Lightwarden_Epithumia]

This comment is underrated lmao

[@Solarasthma]

Good luck bro. Nobody stands on the floor hatches.

[@2inverse469]

@@Lightwarden_Epithumia What about it is underrated? Assuming he meant "Sastasha" he even got the spelling wrong.

[@Lightwarden_Epithumia]

@ the fact that it was a joke that people won’t understand and overthink it

[@sawneybean5518]

being a prog parasite is only okay when I do it

[@Darteghoster]

fr fr

[@arogon8797]

The mentality of everyone in PF

[@Hyukytribalkit]

Same, except it was my ex always lying about me and telling me to play along

[@rpgsupremecourt]

Three options for starting fresh in Party Finder: 1. “Enrage prog? Oh no worries, I have seen enrage on KZbin.” 2. “Clear party? Well, I certainly do want to clear…” 3. “c41? Sure - clear for 1 half of the party”

[@MyVanir]

"Clear for 1 party, right?"

[@Glenningway]

Prog fatigue is a thing. When you do a fight for too long you start messing up mechanics you thought you mastered. There are people that no-life this game to the point where they too start messing up mechanics due to fatigue or hit box miscalculation.

[@MyVanir]

But most of the time, the person consistently fucking up halfway to the target prog point is not tired. And if it is someone who is tired, they 1. have the bare decency to communicate with their group and apologize and 2. get the hint after a while and leave. If someone is tired, but doesn't leave after half an hour of causing back to back wipes, they are throwing just as hard as the prog liars.

[@menardyxiv]

Making a mistake is different than being utterly lost on a mechanic. With some experience you can tell the difference. And even then, just because you made a mistake or two (or even three) thats not enough to call you out. At least, for me it isn't. If you have a really really bad day - then you should probably leave and do something else for a bit anyway, not for the party, but for your own sanity. Messing up over and over feels terrible. Dont put yourself in such a situation if you can avoid it.

[@EccleezyAvicii]

@@Glenningway in the context of an ultimate. Expectation is key. Understand the skill level of the group you’re raiding with prior to making any commitments. 99% of non-loot-related raid drama is caused by discrepancy in player skill levels: ie like one player slower learning, or on average-making the majority of the teams mistakes/wipes. Anything above semi-hard core (or w/e it’s called) it’s sorta assumed that mistakes leading up to a prog point should be an exception, and it’s not uncommon to see groups consistently perform up to the prog point in a skilled group (even in PF). If you’re not confident in your ability to perform and execute at 90% in content you have already progged through and know-then this is a really good indicator that you should seek more casual raiding groups. Again the key difference between an on patch semi-hardcore team is consistency.

[@bumble-b8162]

Now do a video about the experienced players that sign up for beginner/casual statics or PF groups and ruin the experience for everyone else by being super passive aggressive and/or outright toxic. Also a super bad time 😂

[@rikkupendragon8372]

and tank players or other players who jump into a PF that has established strats the the whole group is using already and try to make the group do a different strat. Had that happen to my static for M1S. A tank decided that he was gonna do his preferred strat and kept throwing us off. He was the only pug in the group. We are a fresh static where a lot of us haven't even cleared a raid tier before. We even mentioned that in the PF description lol

[@shockwave7195]

It's sad how common prog lying has become. I like to stay thruthful or if I join a group that is a little further ahead, I prefer to ask first if they are fine with it. But having cleared TOP during 6.5 in PF, tomestone quickly became my best friend

[@safermurderweapon]

It shows the state of the game and its community. Nobody wants to teach fights because a lot of them are really bad to teach. And the lack of tactility between player and mechanics due to the overly used pixel-perfect "stand and let thing resolve" mechanics design makes it really hard for them to stick and it is damn near impossible to teach hard FFXIV content without visuals. The limited camera zoom and desync doesn't help either when trying to advice a player in real-time. This is why people will always tell you to watch a video guide and as someone who actively teaches hard content in many games, I don't personally condone this behavior but I make an exception for FFXIV because everything is abstract until someone sees it and by the time you see anything, the game gives you too little time to understand and react and it's already too late and now you've got half the party wondering if they did something wrong Try sherpa'ing/teaching raids and multiple games for a while and eventually you'll wanna stop teaching EXs/Savage/Ults like I did. Trying to learn FFXIV without a video guide and having someone teach you is effectively self-imposed gaslighting

[@2inverse469]

The problem is that everyone can't be 100% honest about it because there simply isn't enough people doing every content for this to be possible. To some degree, everyone will have to jump ahead, or backwards from where they are due to a lack of players.

[@shockwave7195]

@@2inverse469 I am not against prog lying per say. I think it becomes an issue in ultimates for example when people lie about a prog point that is easily a whole phase ahead. One or two mechanics is something you can deal with (sure can depend on the mechanic)

[@NabsterHax]

@@2inverse469 You can absolutely still be honest about your progress even if you're joining a party that's beyond your current prog point. Just ask if it's okay. You will find groups that are okay accommodating you and catching you up to speed. If you lie, you just set up an unfair expectation about your experience, and it makes it unnecessarily difficult to accommodate you. Instead of being able to provide tips and help point out where you're going wrong so you can improve I have to decide I have to sit there and pretend I haven't noticed you've likely lied about your experience because if I do treat you like someone who's inexperienced you might get defensive in order to maintain your lie, which just slows down prog. The people who feel like the solution to their prog issues is to lie to others are almost always worse to play with and slower to catch up than someone who's honest about not having experience.

[@MyVanir]

@@2inverse469 Not having enough people does not stop people from being honest about their prog point, what are you on about? Lying about prog point to join and asking the pf host if you can join with an earlier prog point are not the same and it is better to stay 3 hours waiting in PF than an hour filling the group and 2 hours without reaching your target mechanic. Prog lying is 100% negative, toxic behavior that should not be tolerated.

[@vartakdragonslayer5553]

so basically just keep joining enrage to clear parties. got it thanks

[@meroku0010]

I have an experienced raid friend who mentioned this before, I'm recently getting into savages after playing for 4+years and being called out as a griefer when I'm just bad at the game made me put it off for so long. Thankfully joining freash prog groups has made me learn fights enough to almost clear(m1s) and slowly getting better at just leaning fights and not thinking of bosses as training dummies.

[@DarkDyllon]

this might sound harsh but it'll be the best bit of advice you'll ever hear, both IRL and for multiplayer games. don't care what others think of you. if you're honest with your prog, for example you're on beat 1 prog for M2S and you join a party for beat 1 prog and onwards, you're honesty, if someone calls you a griefer, so be it, why would you care, you'll likely never gonna see or hear that person ever again in your life. prog at your own speed and if someone outright calls you a griefer, just shrug it off. if someone asks you why you're messing up, just be honest, generally people are willing to explain to you what you're doing wrong and how to fix it, it's just that a lot of people nowadays instantly get defensive when they get called out.

[@SapphireDragon357]

@@DarkDyllon Agreed. Don't be defensive out of nowhere. I'm gonna be far more patient with someone that says "I'm kinda new to savage" than someone that says "Well I guess I just suck then, huh?" And I'll be more patient with that second person than someone that says "Just leave me alone and do your own thing."

[@spetsu1]

Remember, your prog point isn't making it to a mechanic once. It's making it to that mechanic consistency.

[@MyVanir]

Exactly. If you are joining a group that says "practicing C", you're implicitly saying that you can do mechanics A and B damn near perfectly.

[@bellamango6708]

I also like to liken it to tragedy of the commons, where ppl behave in a way that collectively is a negative benefit for their own personal gain (but everyone does it and drags down the median) rather than cooperating

[@ianamburn3151]

I don't play this game, and I am super high right now, and this video showed up in my feed. Good video though. Cheers.

[@menardyxiv]

Haha, guess my thumbnail, title and hook are doing its work, glad to see. The Game Theory part of the video can be quite useful to you even if you have not a single clue about FFXIV or MMOs in general.

[@Drathgore]

bro just tricked a bunch of ff14 players to watch a lecture on game theory

[@Xukerino]

I sometimes join random parties at random points of prog and try to help in fights I have cleared. Sometimes I also host clear parties but I don't need the clear I try to give others the clear. In my experience doing this for a long time now, It's the ones who leave at the slightest hinderance who are the smartest or the most problematic. People always send me tells to "Clear on alt" or asking if they can join the party for clear. I always leave their fate to the party and majority of the time people are merciful.

[@zanon3362]

I've been doing TOP for a few weeks now. After the first few days, i got a good handle on P1. For the next few days (5+), I saw party synergy maybe 10 times total. About a week later, I've seen party synergy enough and feel like I'm ready for the next step, but all P2 prog is just endless looper, people grabbing wrong tethers, not flexing properly (3/5 panto splits) and it feels like there's just no world where I get to phase 3. It's all 10+ pulls to see 1 party synergy at this point.

[@menardyxiv]

Yep! Exactly thats why I used TOP as an example where you can get completely stuck by being honest.

[@jessechen2949]

same, ended up paying random [Duty Complete] people for prog

[@kunstlerischesetwas1284]

Seems like it hasn't changed since back then. It was the same when TOP came out. It was simply impossible to reach p3 and p3 prog partys became more rare as more people progressed to p4/p5. I decided to prog lie out of frustration with p2 partys and joined a p4 from the start party, because i was confident in my ability to convert theory into gameplay. We got to Monitors on like our second pull and started doing p4 some pulls later. Im never proud of prog lying, but on the other hand i have the confidence to say that i can backup everything through my gameplay.

[@Axemninja]

@@kunstlerischesetwas1284 Some people, like myself can see something and put it into action easier. Back in O12S, I watched a guide and joined a clear party and we cleared first pull. If you can see something and put it into action after 1 or 2 times of seeing it, I don’t think that’s prog lying. The people who KNOW they can’t do it are lying. But it’s funny when people who progged further mess up earlier it’s just “my bad” and if YOU mess up earlier than the prog point it’s “wow are you really even there?” Type shit lol.

[@zephyr7242]

@@kunstlerischesetwas1284 To be honest, if you prepared accordingly, and were willing to tap out if you were anchoring the group - I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Like, yeah, it's super frustrating feeling like you might be contributing to the problem, but I feel like genuinely preparing for the mechanic ahead of time is enough to separate you from real prog liars.

[@DrZlow]

My prog will take months but my karma will be so sterile you could perform a heart surgery in it.

[@DankTankXIV]

Great video! FRU being the first ultimate since Tomestone's release should be interesting for PF. A surprising amount of people still don't know about it, but I imagine cooperation will be much more encouraged because liars can be spotted easily ahead of time.

[@drymeen]

The only time I joined a group with a prog point further than mine was on TOP. I was consistent up to p5, cleared delta a few times but the parties for sigma weren't consistent throughout the earlier phases. Didn't lie though, I shot a dm to the party leader and they agreed to let me in their omega group. Ended up reaching p6 and clearing with them a few days later. Remember that there is an even more powerful tool than blacklist for progging ultimates. Friendlist. Add people, bond, network, talk and be honest, create LS, discords, whatever you prefer. Ultimate prog shows how someone is both as a person and as a player. Parses are almost entirely irrelevant to the skill of progging (within a reasonnable range though). Having a pool of good players to play with without the constraints of a static is a great way to make pf enjoyable and make friends along the way.

[@TiduLimar]

Sometimes I think it's a different kind of misjudgement. say your last party reached the advertised prog point 50% of the time. You feel like nearly all of the wipes before are not on you. It's easy to assume YOUR prog point is the neext mechanic and only the rest of tghe group did not make it there consistantly. Some may also just limping there with rezzes, which means actually less than 50% is the times you actually did the previous mechanic right You may also misjudge how many of the wipes are on you, by misunderstanding something BECAUSE it is your ACTUAL prog point. So thats a situation were I think it's common and easy to misjudge what your prog point is. but as you said, that usually leads to a relativly small offence

[@zephyr7242]

I think this is definitely part of it that didn't get discussed, yeah. What 'prog point' means to people drastically varies I've noticed. To some, a prog point is where you can get to consistently. While to some it's the furthest you've seen, even if you aren't comfortable with it.

[@menardyxiv]

Thats a topic for another video. It is complex enough that it varrants a thorough explanation.

[@NSQuote]

Networking is the key to success in ultimate PF - I especially recommend forming a PF linkshell. People tend to develop an understanding of where others are in the fight, and so if they're aware you've been trapped for a while and got left behind while others "had their passport stamped" in a fortunate party, they'll be more gracious towards catching you up. My mindset towards progging ultimate raids in PF is to build consistency on earlier phases and good karma through helping parties behind you, then spending that accumulated good karma if a small jump forward is necessary - once you feel solidly confident through studying, vod review, and simming, of course.

[@BaghNakh1]

The problem, to me, comes not only from the lie itself but also when people keep it secret. A raid group never works when people keep secrets to themselves, like when they die to a mechanic because they have no idea how to resolve it but they keep that a secret in hopes nobody notices them, or ending up resolving it by sheer luck, or they die and get rezzed past it. I've been in groups where people lie about their progress but they're honest about it, so it makes it easier to work around that so the group can stand on the same foot as soon as possible, but every time people keep their "secret" to themselves, it makes it very frustrating cuz it ends up being a huge waste of time for both the liar and the rest of the group for the sake of avoiding the embarassment.

[@raikazz]

this tier was the first tier i ever did savage so i had a friend helping me out. he would consistently throw me into parties above my prog point cause he said "you should be able to do it." it made me feel so bad cause i was not able to keep up... im afraid how many people blacklisted me for that.

[@walwal6449]

shouldve just apologized and left i also had a friend encouraging me because he also believed in me being good... i know he was a good player and fast learner so he was definitely competent enough to "proglie" but i was in fact not i felt bad holding parties back when i tried it so i would apologize for griefing and leave if i felt like i couldnt make it to the actual prog point and just went back to being honest lol

[@CycloneFox]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally don't even go out of my way to blacklist people for exp faking, unless it's a really atrocious case. Like someone who has a big mouth, but keeps wiping the group, blaming others or never saying "mb" in chat. (Don't nail me down on it, it's always a combination of multiple or all factors, not just one) And It's pretty much a common sight to see these groups where you have an ultimate raider who really carries the group, who also invites a poor friend who gets way too much on his plate. xD He was probably well-meaning, but should have taken more time. I wouldn't blame you if I was in one of these groups.

[@raikazz]

@walwal6449 yeah i ended up joining other prog parties that were actually at my point and now ive managed to clear the tier. it was just frustrating cause i kept being told the only way to prog was to lie...

[@sparkspringfield]

I prog lied once for DSR PF, and was more consistent than the entire party before the prog point and never saw the phase 5 in question. Tomestone is a good tool, but sometimes even Tomestone is a problem because they reached the prog point once by luck by being the parasite in question and is not even consistent before. It's an endless problem. I never prog lie since that event, but it tends to frustrate me to be stuck endlessly on previous phases due to this lack of consistency I see everyday in PF. And don't make me start talk about plugins that helps people do fights. On patch day last week it took me 6 hours to do reclears after work because of people not having plugins and failing at early fight mechanics, from M1 to M4. Both are an issue with end game content, prog liars, and plugins.

[@DarkDyllon]

you can generally see in a person's movement if they're comfortable with the mechanic or not. in DSR for example when I was helping out a few people, 2 of them instantly walked to the proper spots for P3 dives. 1 person however either arrived just on time or messed up constantly. (that person was a DRK, so it's not a casting issue, especially since I cleared DSR on RDM and i'm always way on time for anything in P3) movement can be an easy indicator if someone is lying or not, if you're not comfortable with a mechanic, you're not done progging that, if you monkaSteer past that mechanic, you're not magically on "P4 prog"

[@osuBlaziken]

Ff players would do well to remember the streisand effect exists. I raid in static now since I got a job. But when I played in PF and someone had hidden logs/tomestone, you had better believe me and the squad had that mfer under the microscope, if it was obvious they didn't know wtf is going on, straight on the blacklist see you next patch.

[@bayzenmusic1627]

As shameful as it is, I once was a prog liar when I was progging Weapons Refrain Ultimate. I wanted that diamond weapon so badly that I struggled in party finder, I would even say it was pure horror. When I only had the last few Ultima mechanics to prog I found it hard to find groups on PF, so I would join one that is doing a mechanic ahead of my prog which resulted in me fucking up and ruining it for everyone. (Ultimate Suppression) So please, ask questions, prog, learn before you join parties and wipe. Good thing is once you do it once it comes natural to repeat for reclears.

[@cyan_wings5420]

The main frustration that causes prog-lying, is attempting to prog a phase you are able to execute consistently, however, all you've seen are PF-members/party members, die over and over again to the same stupid sh*t that they should really know how to do and thus you spend 2+ hours getting 0 progress, and so you decide to join a group that is actually competant enough to do it.

[@thomasenigma88]

When someone says they are on a mech, they mean they got there one time by chance and the party they were with resolved it while they were dead. So you know...that's the mech, "They are on".

[@queuebaby]

At the last week before the servers went down for Dawntrail 7.0, I decided to finish DSR, I was on P6 a2c months prior. First few days I dedicated to derusting. I wasn't very lucky with the people that joined for we never went past P6. I watched so much POVs while waiting for the party to fill that it made me very go for the clear and not just a P7 fresh prog. I know I can do it. 2 days before the server shut down, it's 2am, I have finally seen P7 once. 5% enrage, I have to sleep unfortunately. The next day I woke up late and only have 4 hours before the patch I am so desperate to clear this. I placed a PF and offered 7m gil each if clear. It started to fill up, a familiar name joined. Ohhh it's the person that made the guide our DC is using! I was hyper focused, I can't disappoint our Lord Guide-Maker. Few wipes on P1, but 1 shot on P2! I got the clear

[@HelaFuntastic]

Honestly, M4S in particular was really rough to get my clear originally(first time raider) I figured proglying was happing A LOT mainly due to EE2 memes. I was stuck there for ages and it aint even that hard. Rn I'm stuck getting my ex3 clear because every Ice phase party i join get stuck at meteors or AA and it's frustrating because i have seen the phase 1 enrange but i cant get past it because there's always some type of meme happing. It would make sense why. I get it could just be someone learning for the first time and people have off days but it gets to a point where it's suspicious how often 1 person screws up the same mech.

[@Verpal]

I am lucky with my EX3 experience, I don't really have time during the week so I only start on Sunday, 3 different PF and less than 3 hours later I am done. 1st PF from start, reach Ice phase. 2nd PF, never reach ice phase, either prog lie or ppl just suck (I raid on Crystal and we usually suck lol) 3rd PF I decided to roll the dice and wait for those 7/8 static PF show up, I go in, done in 2 pull.

[@SableBez]

Since everybody know less than they say they do, when I get into prog party where I actually am progging, ppl can't get to the prog point. So I get into a prog party beyond where I actually am. And guess what, more times than not i end up progging the right part, not what is actually said on pf description. 90% of ppl are prog liars.

[@K3fka_]

This was my first savage tier and I had the same experience. If I joined M4S intermission prog, the group would be stuck wiping to electrope edge 2. If I joined midnight sabbath prog, we'd be progging intermission. So I was put in a situation where I was essentially forced to lie about my prog point because otherwise I wouldn't actually be able to prog. I always felt bad about it, but it was the only way.

[@menardyxiv]

While I can see your frustration, keep in mind the image I show at 1:10 - even if noone is proglying, all of the party will be inconsistent on the 1-2 mechs leading up to the prog-point. Thats normal. If they never reach the prog-point its especially frustrating. I can tell you from my static though (where everyone is exactly at the same prog point) - there is days you can't reach the last mechanic you saw previously. Its consistency training then and absolutely required and necessary. Its just, this doesn't translate. In a static you get something out of it, because everyone in it gets better on the mechs before where they are shaky. In PF you dont see the same people again, usually, so that consistency practice you did only helps yourself. If you are pretty consistent on the mechanics leading up to the one you want to practice, joining for a little bit further tends to be viable, without really lying or hurting anyone, as others will be as conistent or maybe even less at that point. The issue is more when people default do that without even attempting to join at their prog point and without having the consistency to not grief.

[@conorfitzpatrick1758]

I'm glad to see someone highlight this issue, this savage tier was by no means hard in comparison to others but progging it in PF was hell on NA not so much EU. I totally agree with a communal effort of coming down hard on them will stamp the issue out eventually.

[@mosley3485]

It was bad in EU too. Every fight took me 1 day to learn and another day to find a party that wasn't being sabotaged by at least 1 moron. These leeches waste entire days of people's time and think nothing of it.

[@Helltirial]

A very well written script with great explanations. Love the fact you included scientific terms to prove your point. You deserved a sub ma man 👍

[@Frankenbeere]

Had this one special case during ucob PF prog, progpoint was Tenstrike. Last two ppl who joined were friends, one of them TOP clearer, the other had nothing. During prog the second one was blowing up party all the time on Nael, endless memes. All ppl left my party after 30min, and all frustrated. When i wanted to blacklist that one player i clicked on his Adventure Plate and saw he is a "twitch streamer". Went on his Stream to see what is going on there, and hear him talking with a friend that its totaly fine to be a Prog Liar, he should expect to get blacklisted, but he wont miss out, so getting totaly encouraged from his Alpha Legend buddy. Just disgusting behaviour. And Tomestone wont work that much anymore too cuz the Prog Liars learned to deactivate it on their part

[@sandwichs8592]

This actually killed me because I was thinking about this topic all day today. I was trying to clear Sphene Extreme yesterday and all the "clear" groups I joined couldn't get past meteors and I was going insane. Also great explanation of the prisoner's dilemma, sounded just like a college game theory course!

[@suarez6969]

honetly same

[@menardyxiv]

Glad to hear - I studied game design and worked professionally as game designer so if I didn't manage to explain this bit of game theory I would be disappointed in myself.

[@menardyxiv]

Oh and yeah... Sphene Extreme is rough. I haven't seen such a shitshow in a while. Ice phase is the bane of any farm party. Last time it was this bad was with Barbaricca and I swear it wasn't THAT bad. And the fight isn't even difficult. It just really emphasizes the weaknesses of PF.

[@suarez6969]

@@menardyxiv all the pf groups I joined barely have passed meteors its so bad I've only seen ice 3 x times and enrage once

[@DarkDyllon]

@@menardyxiv the amount of times the PF says "static bridges" and then the OT, M2, R2 or H2 runs on the top bridge for their spot, even though their bridge is the south bridge and then kill me because of it. then they go "oh oops" and move on, like dude, you just wasted so much time and an easy clear because you wanted to hold W instead of taking your proper bridge.

[@litatapita6767]

fair to say prog lying is a problem or not more depends on player skills. For good raiders even they didn't done the mech before they still can make it as other people. But if the party getting behind cause the liar, technically it's an skill issue and over confidence problem

[@menardyxiv]

Correct, I mention this at the start of the first chapter. SOME people can pull off the "reading strategy -> convert to gameplay".

[@GarnetDust24]

My PF ultimate raiding experience would have been exponentially longer if it weren’t for prog lying. Every group I joined was a mechanic behind the actual PF description. You’re already waiting so long for ultimate groups to fill so I started joining groups a mechanic ahead and really started seeing progress. Sucks that it came to that but sometimes you have to game the system to get ahead.

[@halo2rocks76]

yep that's the key. the fact that it takes too long to wait in party finder for ultimate groups to fill. It's actually so bad that people will put "3mil gil to everyone if we see X mechanic, or 3mil gil if we clear". nobody should have to pay gil just to prog or clear lol

[@MyVanir]

Congratulations, you are part of the problem.

[@YugiMomo]

​@@halo2rocks76I had to do that for TEA. 100k to see BPOG, 1m if we saw inception. We phase cleared BJCC the second pull. A massive weight felt like it was lifted off my shoulders. For the past few weeks I hadn't screwed up LL/LC once. And I don't mean like I screwed up occasionally, I mean like I straight up didn't fuck up LL/LC once I considered it past my prog point which was infuriating to witness how many people fucked up LC, or die to chakrams, or hawk blasters.... it felt so relieving seeing that phase clear and then time-stop on the second pull. I admitted to the party I didn't study past time-stop because I felt hopeless I'd never see it and they were happy to help explain inception to me. Best 7.7m I ever spent. It's funny, people will say "well you're the only common person in all your parties" but that logic doesn't really hold in a game where 7 other people have to be honest and perform. It doesn't matter how well I perform if someone keeps forgetting not to stack with the water vuln or a DPS keeps dropping nisis

[@menardyxiv]

If you use the time waiting to memorize the mechs, watch VODs or sim then that usually isn't an issue.

[@Nimoot]

Guess what? I'll admit to being a Prog Liar ... but I study the CRAP out of the fight ... and never cause a wipe because of it.

[@halo2rocks76]

They can solve this issue in the same way as having the [Duty Compete] requirement. Just have [Duty 50% Complete] or something similar so you can’t join unless you got there AND you shouldn’t be able to use those tags unless you yourself got that far. You can also solve this by adding duty support to all fights. Hell even if you removed the rewards from clearing a fight with duty support I would still rather use that to practice instead of wasting everyone’s time. One more thing worth mentioning is this: In a scenario where it’s 3am and there’s only two parties up so the average player would have to wait 3 hours making their own group OR get to prog the fight while griefing some other party that’s slightly ahead. Do you really think the average player is going to waste upwards of 3 or 4 hours making their own group instead of that? Doubt it You should definitely be able to blacklist people. That’s totally fair.

[@Zantetsudex]

This very attitude dragged my tier clear up to week 4, and made me give up on trying to clear the new extreme altogether.

[@lemontonk]

What’s wrong with you having cleared on week 4? I guess missing out on books can suck but like let’s say you were trying for a week one clear and you didn’t get it that’s on you? I cleared at like week 6-7 cuz I only even started M1 prog in week 4 or so but that’s just cuz I went slow and took my time. That’s on me even if I ran into plenty trap parties going for my M4 clear yknow

[@Zantetsudex]

@@lemontonk The issue isn't when I cleared but why; I started the tier on the day of release and if I didn't have people lying about their prog point I wouldn't have been reduced to looking for C41 groups just to get me my clear from those who still die to beat 1 in M2S or fusedown in M3S, in a CLEAR group.

[@Yokai_Yuri]

@@lemontonk Because by saying "yeah...I cleared the whole raid tier in week four ugh" they think that will somehow validate that they are good players and they could've cleared in day 1 if it wasn't for something holding them back.

[@Rhaya02]

Yokai if you think about it and dont get insecure someone killed earlier then you If they started on release and then got stuck for 1 or 2 weeks purely cause they couldnt prog cause people were lying, others dont like their time wasted but ig you do?

[@DarkDyllon]

@@Rhaya02 it's pretty much this. it's more relevant in ultimates since you got harder mechs and a longer fight. but even in the new Extreme, you got someone joining a duty complete party (a farm party as well) and that person can't even do Earth stage correctly and if they do they'll mess up ice stage. and this continues for 3-4 pulls till someone is done, leaves the party and then the PF sheep mentality kicks in and everyone leaves to quickly join another party.

[@cosmic_wolf0586]

Honestly, I thought it was because im just bad. I still think this. Plus I don't get detailed enough instructions when I ask.

[@kyeda]

Just stand around the waymark bro, that explains everything, if you use macros ur trash xdddd /disban

[@akridx5712]

True dat! I just watch guides now before going in and asking questions. Im a simple person. Even when the party leader tries to explain stuff they be like, "Dps you have to stand opposite of the clockwise position of your intercardinal way point XYZ for the raid wide to pop and then do a handstand while singing ABC in reverse order before etc." Like I barely even know wtf they be saying with all those acronyms. One guide and I practically know the fight lol.

[@MonoNako]

Before I got my clear for M4S, I joined a pf for Uptime Sunrise *Prog* and we kept wiping to P1 because the pf lead self admitted to "still messing up P1." I left this party for an enrage party right after and that SAME pf lead joined after me despite causing a train wreck in their own pf.

[@MyVanir]

Just say exactly that and ask the host to kick them.

[@kunstlerischesetwas1284]

I tolerate Prog liar's as long as they can back up their confidence with actually doing their part. A Prog liar is only bad when his non-existent experience becomes obvious. Short: Don't get caught Prog lying! If you get caught, its a sign that you are not as good as you thought you are.

[@MyVanir]

I hate that PF turned into Among Us in the last couple of expansions.

[@Kajakoro]

Peak title and thumbnail

[@menardyxiv]

All the clickbait gladge

[@Vrack227]

I admit it, I prog lied in E8s to get to Icelit dragonsong and not die over and over in uptime wings trying to get there.

[@JT1698]

Wait, so I've only gotten to the part where I'm going to meet Hraesvelgr in Heavensward. Are these people lying about having done the fight before or something? Am I not far enough along to even have to care about watching this video or something??

[@menardyxiv]

Yes this is an endgame issue. In extreme trials, savage and ultimate raids. Enjoy the story, you dont have to deal with this nonsense.

[@BHJ-YM]

I didn't even know raid parasites were a thing until seeing this video. I started learning savage about a month ago and honestly, I feel like I've encountered a few without realizing it. Not sure if this is a raid parasite or not but in an M2S heartsick prog we would get to enrage about 3 times but we would always die because of one dps pulling less damage than both of our healers.

[@asciiavatar]

This issue of Prog liars has really struck a cord with me recently, particularly with the new EX3 (Sphene's Burden). Maybe it's just me, but I feel that a lot of players are struggling with the ice phase in this fight, especially the bridge crossing. A lot of players making mistakes on this part even when in a 'duty complete/farm' party. It feels like a player gets a 'lucky clear' and then immediately jump into a farming party hoping to get carried, instead of staying in practice parties to polish their mechanics.

[@tominhaplays]

I'm a PF player, 99% of the time so I can thrown something here. It is a cultural problem in this game. People will not only lie but will suggest you to lie, most because everyone is lying. The perception of what is the prog point is a big issue too, for some is the knowledge of reaching a point with consistency, but for some you only need to see the thing even dead. And this conflict will never cease on PF. However, we can blame the players for perpetuating this "toxic behaviour" but in the end we should be blaming Square for making a limited game that can become very boring and repetitive, since most of the game is much linear and people lose interest fast. Another issue is the perspective of steps putting players on the constant expectation cycle, that can easily break the mood of any unprepared and contributing to the reduction of player base on that content. We don't have an official ranking system, we don't have a decent training culture or even a good game progression since the start. I was talking to a friend yesterday about it, healers for a long time don't need to put their brains to work while learning the basics of the game on the regular content, they can play spamming aoes forever, then they decide to play the "endgame" and boom an absolute different game where you not only need to heal and mitigate better but deal damage too. Another big issue is the idea of responsibility, most players in this game are very selfish, they treat the game as their special bubble and they don't think with the group, on PF it reflects the prog lying culture exactly because of this. Even in statics it can happen, people only want their clear and not clear with others. About the game design, since the game is very straightforward with a start, middle and end, learning the game properly isn't part of the culture. You can literally watch a video of anything from a dungeon to a ultimate and you will clear. The effort there is just patience, repetition and time, it makes the game dynamics less enjoyable for many and that's why some players evade the PF, because the PF is where you really feel the reality of the game flaws (from the role limitations, expectations, strat confusions and segregation, lying cycle, etc). And don't forget about cheaters, cutting even more the efforts to learn in fact. Pure lazyness, thats the thing.. but remember one thing: if people use is because people need, if people need there's a problem.. if it becomes a culture it is a major problem and unsolved. In the end they aren't parasites, it is a reflection of a problem that no one is working to solve, neither Square or the players... because in the end you will get your weekly clear and just remember this in the next one... and nothing changes.. expansion after expansion... but don't forget the new optional items in the mogstation.

[@EccleezyAvicii]

@@tominhaplays I think a lot of what you said here is super fair. Personally, I think they need to straight of fix some of the core mechanics of the game: mouseover targeting, Zoom distance/FoV, color/clutter VFX settings that are more than the current 150% or 0% options. More intentional in game training on what a GCD versus a oGCD is. The early game shouldn’t be bare bones. It should just be the end game with slightly fewer cooldowns to track, and visually less powerful looking actions-ie you have to learn rotations etc. early on. PF should have more expanded features beyond “duty complete”, they should have bookmarks in every difficult encounter that are unlocked as you progress the encounter, that way you could do a somewhat better job at filtering out players. Most modern online games now feature Rep systems to mitigate bad actors as well. Successful PF leaders/party builders should gain reputation. So many players try and filter out savage/extreme encounters by setting high ilvls, this is a HORRIBLE experience for skilled players who might have taken a break from the game and started progging after PF and the general community has cleared the fight for weeks. Also, higher ilvl (with the exception to ultimate) simply makes the encounter easier, so a lot of the artificial challenge from encounters is removed when you filter non-BIS or high ilvl players. There is a daily que for high end dungeon, but not one for raids. It would be cool if each day, a single raid was chosen for that whole day for everyone that didn’t use echo/ez-mode ilvl scaling, but provided much better rewards. It would be like 90% the difficulty of how the raid was on release, or the ilvl scale would be like granting the whole party BiS for that tier, but no echo, so it would be reclear level difficulty. If you wanted to learn that raid you had the opportunity, if you didn’t like that raid, well it’s gone in a day. Lastly the in game communication system has so many quirks and usability issues. Can’t add friends offline, well I guess I’ll never see that person again. There are a lot of little things that add up that ultimately add so much friction to the ease of social interaction in the game, you basically have to learn a whole _interface game_ just to maintain social regularity.

[@tominhaplays]

@@EccleezyAvicii Yeah there are so many QoL features they could add to the game that are part of MMOs for more than a decade. Idk why Square refuse to learn with other games success. This bugged macro system is a good example of a thing that should be fixed. Took them expansions to finally add simple extra mechs to the new player training instance, literally YEARS. I know a 20yo korean mmo who not only allow you to create groups on friend list but it refreshes it instantly. Looks like FFXIV was built on a really uncooked system and now they can't fix anything. The funny part is, right now most of the interesting content of Dawntrail can be classified as high end, but the high end population is small. They literally don't know what to do, I really try to understand what they want with all this, looks like a big chaos in almost every aspect and sadly the game suffers because the people interested in the endgame will suffer in the PF while the people not interested have almost nothing to do (few cute treasure skins aren't a decent content IMO, they will lose interest really fast like everything in this game). In the end it's time to finish this "seasonal mindset" of releases and bring good content for everyone every big patch, it is their best service, so honor this and make things better!

[@AdmiralParallax]

Ive only blacklisted liars who insist they arent. Had a awesome pf for m4s, got to see sunrise multiple times. However a member had to leave, and were replaced by someone i had previously blacklisted. I had met them in an midnight prog group and dude kept dying to witch hunt and ee1. He would claim that he wasnt the problem, and would complain when someone other than him messed up. We didnt get to see phase 2 again that pf, and i ended up calling him out before leaving and blacklisting him again.

[@LionLostInTime]

Back in p4s times i joined an act 4 party despite never being in p2 before because every single p2 from start party was just pinax memes

[@ProfessorBuckz]

once when doing p11s reclear party i brought in a friend whos never touched it and said they were clearing on an alt. got her to enrage in 3 pulls xD

[@giojay4008]

What i don't like either is when i try to help others InGame to find out they lied to me about their prog. In the end "am i the A55h0le" because i said: "u can't ask me for the clear attempt in DSR while u struggle in phase 4 and 5 and even phase 3 multiple times in a row. We are in there for already 90 mins and we haven't seen phase 6 or Doth in phase 5 at all. And u are the reason to be honest. Remember there are another 6 gamers who u make thinking about to dodge u for. So u don't even help yourself like that" And they never learned.

[@Crow-wv6if]

It’s definitely annoying when it happens in savage/ex trials. But I’m surprised to hear it happens in ultimates as well, since like…it would be super obvious

[@bellamango6708]

you'd think, but i had someone that begged a streamer friend to help set them up with a group to clear an ultimate. said they'd been stuck for a while. they get in instance, person pulls with no countdown or food or proper pull (they just gap closed). they keep lying in VC and scramble and mess up literally anything until it comes out that indeed, they were so egotistical that they thought they could be carried through UWU without EVER having instanced into it once. :)

[@DarkDyllon]

it's more common in ultimates because how long the fight tends to be. for example in DSR, a lot of parties would get stuck on P3, any party past P3 prog would secretly be a P3 prog party, generally because 1 or 2 don't know what to do and in P3 DSR, if 1 messes up (or dies atleast) everyone instantly dies. So many people tend to identify this and then kick/blacklist the person, removing them from the pool and making them unable to see or join certain parties. This video says to not hold a grudge and blacklist, but the issue is that they'll continue to prog lie and waste 7 other people's time because they likely got tired of their prog speed and just joined a group that is farther than what they are at. I don't hold a grudge, but you'll be on my blacklist till I reinstall the game and forget to migrate my settings over. (whenever I look over it, I don't even remember 99% of the people on it, but I know that I only blacklist people who are hindering my prog or are just an absolute shitter, like the GNB I had yesterday during Sphene EX farm party, the guy legit jumps off the X platform, he died like 6 or 7 times, then dies again on the Earth stage, healers don't got swiftcast anymore, it's too late to recover, he then goes off about why he wasn't rezzed. he left with 2 seconds left on the pull timer, we collectively blacklisted the guy. the funny part was, that the monk of the group was his friend (they joined together) and then said "then BL me too" and left afterwards, imagine defending your friends shitty attitute so hard, if my friend would act like that I would likely just laugh at him/her and say "well, you're on atleast 6 more blacklists now"

[@SymmRTA]

It's literally the new EX that just came out. Legend titles will join clear parties and don't know how to solve the easy mechanic that is ice

[@DarkDyllon]

@@SymmRTA kinda depends on the legend title, but if you see the UCOB or UWU legend title, then they did 1 of the 2 easiest ultimates in the game. but if you see an Alpha Legend, expect them to eat shit, for some reason, Alpha Legends are just bad at general content and I don't even know why. But 1 thing i've always told myself and it's pretty much true. anyone can clear an ultimate, for what 1 might lack in skill or concistency, that 1 can just compensate for with time. i've seen people clear DSR that have no business clearing DSR, but yet, cleared DSR because the stars aligned after so many pulls.

[@akatsuki20113]

@@DarkDyllonI dunno what alpha legends you’re running into. Check their logs to see if their clears are legit cause they could’ve bought those or if they recently cleared it. Old alpha legends make those fights look like a joke.

[@lemontonk]

Sphene PF from day2-5 was horrrrible. Lots of prog liars but also toxic people getting mad when you didn’t use a stray they liked but didn’t explain at all and just assumed you did the fight the same way as them (sphene ex has lots of mechs that can be completed in many different ways) had someone complaining because the group was wiping at meteors and complaining we were following the pastebin, now this was day 2 so there were lots of pastebins out so no one knew which one they meant. PF lead wasn’t talking so when the toxic person asked for a pastbin link I sent them a link to the speenebin cuz maybe they needed help right. They immediately called me an idiot and worse cuz we were doing a different strat than was in the bin (which actually had multiple strats for different mechs) the girl blows up at me when I wasn’t even the PF lead and deciding which strat we were doing. Just wanted to help them by sending a pastebin but that was the wrong idea I guess. I know that getting stuck on a mech earlier than prog point can suck but damn people act like actual children in PF recently it’s gross

[@SergeantZong]

I got so frustrated with m2s and the fact I couldn't clear it in 4 weeks in PUGs playing weekends and weekdays, due to absolute troglodyte gnolls joining clear parties got me retrospective and I just came to the conclusion I don't like playing with other people. I straight up took a break there and then. My UwU prog was faster and that demotivated me hard

[@danmarshall4812]

Fantastic video my liege (from your loyal chatter Tizi) :bla:

[@mosley3485]

This has gotten so bad that I just don't use PF any more. If my static is missing a player and we can't get someone that we know to fill, we just cancel. I'm not waiting hours for a party to fill only to never see my prog point because some entitled turbocasual thinks it's ok to waste everyone else's time.

[@EccleezyAvicii]

Always put your PF description (or join) 2 mechanics ahead of where you are currently at. Edit: 6:05 LMAO HE KNOWS

[@menardyxiv]

Yep, I helped dozens of people clear TOP during 6.3 to 6.5 in PF.

[@EccleezyAvicii]

@ real talk. I think you have great advice. I throughout EW, I would typically look over people’s logs if I’m hosting a full savage reclear party, to ensure the other players stick around and don’t feel like their time is wasted. And in DSR/TOP I would typically just ask them a specific question about a mechanic they would only know if they had experience in the fight. Also 90% of the time you can avoid so much pain by avoiding any PF that mentions a Hector strat, which in my experience is almost never the PF strat I see parties that actual clear using.

[@Apoxiosis]

i really wanted to raid in ff and i almost did because a friend pulled me into a pf for p1s in endwalker. it was fun learning the fight, though it took a while to eventually get the kill. i decided to go back in on my own to continue practicing the fight and every group i got in was basically reprogging the same mechanics. then someone fucked up a mechanic and it got blamed on me ( had shadowplay on, i watched the video, it was not me) and i just decided to hang it up. im just not gonna raid unless i have friends to raid with. pf is a dogwater experience.

[@1Dylan1]

I can't tell you how many times this week I joined an Ice prog and parasites were dying at meteors, or joined a p2 enrage prog and parasites were dying at ice.....

[@menardyxiv]

Sphene Ex is really showing how bad it has become in more "casual" circles. TOP PF was already a nightmare in 6.4/6.5 - but thats a very niche community.

[@NokoFace]

Sphene is so bad with it. Until my static got together and cleared it, the amount of "Ice progs" there were and people were dying to meteors/coronations was INSANE. Someone even had the audacity to ask "What do we do with the meteors again?" Like COME ON.

[@menardyxiv]

@@NokoFace Agreed, people who dont even look up the mechanics they are trying to "skip" by lying... thats a whole different level of stupidity.

[@IWLGaming]

The problem is simple. Someone sees x mechanic ONCE and they now think they're at x prog point. Its the ccommunity's fault for the toxic positivity of "omg we made prog, yay!"

[@DridriKon]

For my sanity's sake in FRU I will use every tool possible. Made an outrageous prog lie ? Blacklisted until I clear at the very least, if you're being an asshole when called out it's perma.

[@XiaosaGaming]

Most of the time if I happen to be in PF I'll join groups am at like if I've reached enraged I'll join kill parties but there have been moments where I certainly lied but only cause I knew I had the skill and knowledge to back it up and its because I'm near the kill and I feel confident in myself in getting to final bits without issue. But of course if I ever run out into a wall I know when to bow out.

[@Yee-Haw_Bird]

There is no such thing as an Ion cluster or intermission party. Its all EE2 prog.

[@Juslikowo]

I'm a prog liar into aurum vale....

[@keshxiv]

NAUR TEA event was ruined really hard by this i watched some guy thats never seen Perfect Alexander join PA groups and hold it down lol for a week

[@shimaru2919]

Okay but like what if I progged that far but I just got lucky and didn’t get the mech the first time?

[@Knightsmaren]

Ok, here's the thing. I'm a Prog Liar BUT I don't join parties past my point until I 100% understand the mechanic I'm joining for. During TEA, I've never seen past Wormhole, PF sucked at Wormhole and kept wiping there despite me knowing how to do Wormhole. I joined a Perfect Alex clear party but I studied my ass off beforehand and so I 1-shot Perfect Alex the 1st time I got to him because I knew what to do. If I personally know the ins and outs of a future mechanic and how it works but PF is holding me back I'm skipping idgaf, I'm not wasting my time because PF can't do it.

[@zephyr7242]

This was how I did it too. Wormhole has a ton of simulators out there, so it felt like the play to just binge the wormhole sim while waiting for Fresh PA prog parties to join.

[@xierotron]

some parasites arent smart P12S Enrage party into kill, Gunbreaker viewing cutscene, was like bro you seen enrage? erm nah but its fine ive seen as guide. KIck

[@jonny1494]

I fucking hate them is the one thing I dispise from pf I was stuck on p3 dsp for weeks cause no pty could clear p2 until a group came and help me out

[@arturferreira9721]

and what about people that prioritize a stupid number in a website when opening a pf?

[@rhakun6606]

Can't believe someone made a very detailed video about how shitty pf is at times.

[@Zkid531]

Well if you want to prog Phase 6 but you arent sure if you're good enough at Phase 5, you should join a Phase 5 party to practice first... except... people lie about their prog, so you never see Phase 5 in a Phase 5 party... so you have to join a Phase 6 party to practice Phase 5, except sometimes you get a group of Truthers and you actually get to Phase 6!? BUT YOU DIDNT WANT PHASE 6 YOU ARENT READY YET so now you are the liar who cant do Phase 5 consistently but you joined a Phase 6 party and so you shall be condemned to the blacklist.

[@Derdaida]

tbh i proglied myself through TOP p5 aswell because i was stuck there for an eternity. Did i feel bad? Yes. But honestly since there were barely p6 parties and i wanted to get a kill before FRU comes out and atleast i could get some practice with the Sim. But i noticed most of the groups i went in nowadays check your Characters Tomestone aswell

[@kiretan8599]

For everything else… there’s tomestone 😂

[@walwal6449]

the prog liars turned my supposed 1 week clear of tea into 2 weeks because yall think 3rd nisi is the same as p2 from start (which also mean lc cleanup) i had a friend who encouraged me to join parties whose prog points are a little further ahead and i tried but i was terrible at it and felt horrible griefing people so i left after some griefing instead of taking the advantage.... but my honesty also made me stuck at a point for a while lol

[@eyrilonakestrysswyn3513]

The take on hiding fflogs seems absolutely backwards. In order to be able to upload your own runs to fflogs, you have to violate ToS in the first place. If you are not uploading your own logs, anything that ends up about you in fflogs is going to be a random sampling at the mercy of whoever is uploading full party data instead of only their own -- which means you are going to look worse than those who do their own uploading and can preferentially skew by only uploading their best runs. So if you don't want to violate ToS (so you don't upload your own logs) and are smart enough to realize the disadvantage this puts you at, then telling fflogs to hide you so you don't have to worry about being misrepresented is the sensible thing to do. So if you treat hidden fflogs as a red flag, then in your attempt to get rid of *liars*, you are instead categorically blacklisting the most inherently *rule abiding smart players*.

[@halo2rocks76]

core of issue: remove the ability to preferentially skew by only uploading your best runs

[@menardyxiv]

I think you have a skewed view of reality here. Almost every savage and ex trial run in PF gets uploaded. The VAST majority of people just livelog to see how they are doing and to improve. Selective uploading doesn't work in PF because 4/8 will upload it anyway. How do I know this? I often don't care about logging, but if I did really well or something strange happened I might want to see the log. I look it up via tomestone and almost always find it, uploaded by someone else in the party. Also there is no "your own" - you can only upload the entire fight with all party members or not upload at all. The fear of your logs looking poor and that causing people to avoid you is irrational. Most good players don't care if you have a green or pink log. The ones that do you probably dont want in your party anyway. And this is the reality: The number of people that avoid others with hidden logs is MUCH larger than those that avoid "bad" logs. Wear your 9% grey ultimate clear with pride. Noone cares about the number, just that you cleared it.

[@eyrilonakestrysswyn3513]

@@menardyxiv Could be, I have only ever progged with a friend group static, never in PF with randoms. Which in its own way kind of gets around the whole prog parasite issue too, since nobody can lie to a group that was there with them the whole way.

[@menardyxiv]

@@eyrilonakestrysswyn3513 Exactly, static is entirely different and the issue isnt there at all. I also prog savage and ultimates with my static that I've been in since asphodelos. Only reason I know a lot about this issue is because I PF ultimates a lot, helping friends prog or clear.

[@nothappening-e5s]

its okay when i do because im kind of epic at the game dont worry

[@Ben-on9ry]

I actually don't understand people who join parties at a prog point, they just do not have. I am always scared to fuck terribly up and waste the time of these people even i am a pretty fast learner most of the time. I for example learned thordan in DSR in like 20 minutes because i was asked to join a static there. It was week 2 and i actually did not fuck up, thx to good calls. But i would have never joined them without that question XD

[@menardyxiv]

The video explains why people do it. Thankfully many players, like you and me, are not selfish enough to abuse others for progress.

[@Ben-on9ry]

@menardyxiv oh maybe it is my bad english or that it is not my mother tongue, that i was not clearer about it. I meant i can't understand it from a personal point of view. You were clear about the reasoning in the video and it is a great one for sure. Just me personally would feel like crap if i would waste peoples time instead of making a own party^^

[@finanzwesen1601]

the video itself is good, i just wouldn't recommend to use certain 3rd party tools and publicly display them (trolls and such reporting you) especially if your full ingame name is visible

[@zefferss]

I think having fflogs or tomestone hidden cannot directly be used as evidence as a red flag, this is a bad take. Also anecdotal examples and one off scenarios of, "so and so had logs hidden and did bad, was obviously prog lying" is not an argument to support the conclusion. Do some people hide logs that prog lie? Yes. Do all? Most likely not. Do some people hide logs because of privacy, absolutely. You are using an affirming the consequent logical fallacy here. If P then Q, "If hidden logs, then prog lying red flag" Nope, not logically sound, please try again. "But my one off anecdotal experience or several experiences." Nope, try again. It is not an automatic red flag, because you cannot see the data being hidden and thus it's not possible to make any conclusive determinations based on that alone. You would have to extrapolate data from every single use-case of someone prog lying and correlate each instance to hidden logs vs non-hidden logs and then see how accurate your data is to prove this point. People who do not hide logs also prog lie at times. So this point is overall kind of moot on top of being logically fallacious to begin with. Somebody could hide logs and have clears, solid parse performance, but they care about privacy more than showing their data. "If you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't need privacy" Now where have I heard that kind of statement before? Here's a wild take you may not agree with, but someone who is prog lying has just as much right to hide logs as much as someone who just wants privacy for the sake of privacy to hide logs. Can you point to anywhere in the terms of service with FF14 that having your data extrapolated via a 3rd party website is something each person is agreeing to? No? Then why should I or anyone else have to comply with arbitrary standards or parameters set by said 3rd party websites being used as tools to be weaponized against me as a player? I never agreed with such 3rd party websites to have my data to begin with, nor did anyone else. I personally have gone out of my way to make my logs private because I was made aware of these 3rd party websites, and thankfully there IS an option to private my logs. Why? Because my privacy is paramount, and I nor anyone else should feel the need to justify that to you or anyone else. My logs will always be private, why? Because they are private and that's my business, it's that simple. It's incredibly dishonest to represent the issue this way. Actually to add, I think it's crazy that these 3rd party websites that track data for several games have not had some kind of lawsuit tied to some kind of privacy violation yet. At some point somebody or a group of people are going to be upset enough about it to take action. Prog lying sucks btw.

[@noiretech3345]

Was just wondering why you think anyone would care about the data this sites collect or why its important to keep that private, i feel like thats some information that does not matter at all, its some game score, nothing of that could be potentielly used against me or does have some worth to anyone. It's literally only there to show / see raiding performance and i feel like if you want to be pugging in PF its just fair to show everyone that performance

[@weberman173]

@@noiretech3345 for some its Very much a matter of principle. While FFLogs has no Identifying data its still data pertaining to activities i did. I have my logs open(or at most unlisted) but i personally think that the current system of "opt-out" is a fundamentaly wrong aproach to this. FFLogs and co should be Opt-in. If you dont want your data on there linked to you you should not have to go the the website, find a weird string of characters, post that to your loadstone profile, and then tell the website "hey check my profile, i opt out". and that assumes you KNOW of FFlogs, which many dont even if they do extremes. it should be the opposite, you should need to know of the website and agree to their terms of service. I also disagree that "its only fair if you want to be pugging" Logs should be at most an indicator for statics if they want to have a person or not. For pugging in PF a log dosnt tell you enogh, especialy given hwo most people in PF who would use logs woudl look at the parse number and "kick" if its below X. withotu considering stuff like the party, the gear of the player at the time the log was taken, or if they made fundamental mistakes in their rotation or died. my best log in Ex3 is green 32% PLD, because i didnt play since Savage dropped and thus obviously dont have the armor from savage OR from tomestones, so my logs WILL be lower then someone who isnt

[@Phynastor]

@@noiretech3345 I can just imagine the lawsuit with the judge sitting there looking at the civil court filing. Grey hair, brow raised, mouth partially open in disbelief. "Wants to sue for putting video game scores on the internet as a violation of privacy."

[@Phynastor]

That's fine if you want to hide your logs, you have every right to, but you'll be immediately kicked and blacklisted from my savage/ultimate parties. I just don't consider that to be socially acceptable behavior.

[@Fexghadi]

@@Phynastor Thankfully not everyone is a clown like you 🙂 I could give you a hundred times more examples of people who are absolute trap material and don't hide their logs, than people who are consistent and hide their logs because they don't want to be bothered by people like you who mix up parsing and progging.

[@tanhongyi7180]

PF misconstrued the definition of 'prog' : Prog is not the furthest point you'd seen in the fight. It's how well-versed you are to that specific point in the fight. Every damn time I see people celebrating their new prog points by kissing floor and skipping multiple mechanics, then they go on ahead and claim their 'prog point' is where the party couldn't carry on further. It's absolute BS because they would end up failing those mechanics again. There is multiple criteria to define a prog point : Understanding and remembering the mechanics up to that point, rotation proficiency up to that point, and improved speed in solving mechanics through practice up to that point. It's not just prog lying. PFs definition of 'prog point' lacked integrity in holding themselves accountable, to folks whom were looking for players that are on the same page as them.

[@wacman13]

Tomestone might help in those case of liar

[@havocwind4442]

8:33 thought it would be gaming grandpa dude

[@Meykero]

TBH if you are a PF person and you inhale a savage guide over and over again and you maybe join a party that is 1-2 small mechanics ahead of your current prog point then it shouldnt be a problem and you can progress easier. If you ofc go blind into the mechanic while you are 1-2 mechs behind and you didnt even watched a guide then yeah.. just dont do it at all. And for Ultimates.. just dont.. just dont.

[@lemontonk]

Prog lying is bad (except when I do it cuz I’m fucking goated)

[@zordiark9673]

I'm in a kinda different dilemma. I dont want to do new savage or ex progs on the first day since i know i'm not even close to being a really good player and would probably hold my group back. On the other Hand, when i think the time is right, everything is cleared and people wont accept someone that hasnt even done the first half of the fight (how could i learn the first half when i never done it before?)

[@akridx5712]

Same! Since Sphene Ex dropped. I've been busy irl, and it's been a minute since the fight has been out. I try to join a pf if I'm free, but everybody either cleared already and or trying to prog ice phase. My ass watched guides and I still haven't passed earth phase. The struggle of time lol.

[@ReveredDead]

This really isn't that big of an issue dude unless the person is a fresh prog trying to get into a late prog or clear party. The big issue here and the true parasite is the raider who doesn't watch a single guide, doesn't ask a single question and just goes in blind in a group that isn't a fresh prog.

[@eggsmoo]

good explanation of how to judge the situation and how to deal with it. I dont have much on my black list because I implemented something similar. I know players in the past that where griefers but changed after that tier from others and me as well calling that person out due to wasting others time. good tank now after being honest with them so it's a good ending

[@menardyxiv]

Thank you! My blacklist is under 20 people, despite playing for 3+ years and having spent hours and hours for months in ultimate PF helping people (for stream content). I only blacklist for bad attitude, not for being a bad player. A lot of the people on my blacklist aren't there permanently either, they just haven't had enough time on it yet for me to remove them.

[@eggsmoo]

@ yeah, it takes a lot for me to cross the threshold. I usually assume people probably won’t be as consistent as I can be. (But I grad my healing harshly)

[@menardyxiv]

@@eggsmoo I also hold myself to a much higher standard than others. Especially if I do savage or extremes.

[@eggsmoo]

@ yeah, it’s hard to judge people because I don’t know everyone’s skill lvl.

[@swapertxking]

The issue isn’t necessarily prog skipping, it’s just the reason for prog skipping and the lying that goes on. I’ve progged skipped, I’ve asked if it was okay to join, I’ve been told sure but you’re on a short lease, and no we’d rather have someone whose past it to guarantee we’re not wiping a the spot. You’re 100% correct about the the intent going into it. I spent 3 solid days of raiding the new ex blind in pf because I actually wanted to try doing that and see if it is possible, I got my clear, but the issue is at its root. You can put together the strats and explain it to the T, but you cannot grapple with the party agreeing to stats that have been explained then doing something completely different then get mad at me for using bad strats

[@NightHawkmanO]

if we just used duty finder like it was intended for then it wouldn't be an issue, we should take note of how they do it on the easter DC's it works way better, Duty Finder for practice and PF for clears but we don't use DF so the only option is PF, I would lie as well.

[@magnusaber1]

That is the opposite of how jp does it. DF to clear, PF to practice

[@NightHawkmanO]

@magnusaber1 either way, but all through PF is shit.

[@DridriKon]

DF for practice would be a catastrophe. You don't know the prog point of anyone, so you could be in phase 6 matched with people fresh, it doesnt give you much practice. The reverse makes much more sense (DF for clears, everyone knows their roles). PF can honestly serve both, especially if parasites would stop being parasites and respect themselves and others. Alas imagine respecting someone else.

[@DarkDyllon]

the issue is culture. in the eastern DC's, they hold you accountable for your mistakes, they will openly call you out. meanwhile in western DC's, if you call someone out they either, take the advice, apologize and move on. or they go all defensive and leave the party, maybe also a report of abuse to the GM's about you calling them out. in the eastern DC's they value performance a lot, the western DC's values feelings way too much. I generally call someone out if they keep messing up and I see it happen, it generally ends up in them going "wow, so mean" and then leave. (and I don't even call them names, it's literally " you know what to do there right?"

[@NightHawkmanO]

@DridriKon i am definitely the odd one out with this opinion, but I also feel like current locked content should be limited to DF because if you are going in with a pre made group why does it matter?

[@I_am_Kaz]

If someone hides their tomestone they're instant blacklist. There is 0 reason for anyone who wants to prog in PF to not have that info publicly available.

[@zefferss]

Bad take, because forcing people to comply to a 3rd party website they never agreed to have their data represented on to begin with should not be weaponized against them. I have all my logs private, why? Because it's not your business, it's nobodies business, and I don't have to justify that to you or anyone else.

[@bastariusrehilik7512]

​@@zefferss If you're prog-lying, and wasting everyone's time, you are making it everyone's business, tho. If I'm progging later phases of an Ultimate, and I can't check that you've at least seen the phase, why would I risk wasting my time taking you in? (Especially when prog point takes 13min+ to reach) Third party is not great, I won't deny it, but, it is a necessary evil due to how prevalent prog-lying is in PF in ultimates. I absolutely don't care about your logs, I just want proof that you've seen the prog point, after being burnt far too often progging P6/P7 DSR, only to have consistently one or two players who never saw the end of P5.

[@menardyxiv]

Thank you two for bringing up this topic - let me try to give a nuanced take: I absolutely agree that people can hide their logs and tomestone for non-malicious reasons. Some get stalked on these sites even. But if you do hide your activity, be aware that it WILL make people suspicious. And you cannot fault people for that, because a majority of people hiding their data are doing so maliciously. The reason I know this, is because I run into the same people constantly, especially in ultimate PF. They have their data hidden when progging and whenever savage is current content or they cleared the ultimate its all public again. The DRK I mentioned in the video is one such example. They just proglie their way to a single clear - they are single-digit grey on every ultimate with 1-3 clears each. Hidden everything, after clear everything public. And he is by far not the only one. So, thats why I say, I give people the benefit of the doubt, but I am rightfully suspicious and may have an eye on them. I've often enough ran into someone with hidden logs who was a perfectly fine player with a good attitude that I don't automatically treat them worse.

[@zefferss]

@@bastariusrehilik7512 You don't need logs, do like 2-3 pulls if you notice a person is messing up, talk to them and ask about it. Do you know the mech, do you need a refresher, what's the deal etc etc? If they can't provide a good enough answer, you can replace you know. It's not that hard. Maybe the person is having a bad day, plenty of people who have cleared before can make mistakes and screw up. But at the end of the day, if somebody wants to private logs, they have a right to do so, demanding access to private info on a 3rd party website nobody agreed to having their data pulled from the game onto is bad.

[@I_am_Kaz]

@@zefferss Just as I am allowed to invite anyone into my group, you are not entitled to be in mine. If you're obfuscating your prog and joining publicly listed parties, it's a red flag. Full stop. The moment someone joins my group and lies about their progress, they make their logs my business. Don't like it? Don't PF. Stick to a static.

[@enzoalejandro2348]

In conclution learn how to prog lie

[@Kaidden97]

Hello Menardy how is to have now 245 comments?

[@menardyxiv]

pepeW

[@imorkoenen]

peak like usual :prayge:

[@Thundawich]

How many pulls does it take you to reclear the savage tier?

[@menardyxiv]

Depends how lucky I get. Usually the first and second floor are really bad. People don't focus, a lot of uh... well, not so great players that haven't beaten the tier in week 16. 3rd floor I just win by being a healer and LB3ing after chain deathmatch 2 or fuse or foe. 4th floor is actually quite consistent, I had many weeks where I killed it in 1-3 pulls. Just stay clear of hector parties (on EU). Context: Hector is not bad, its just that EU used 2-3 raidplans in the first 3 weeks before Hector popped up. Lots of people CBA to learn both. So in hector parties you get a lot of late clearers and in raidplan a lot of ppl who cleared week 1/2. But I had hector parties that were 100% fine, monday night 2 chest with hector, no problem.

[@xavierg9066]

It’s always been a thing, cya

[@DP-fq7iy]

People still PF? Damn.

[@blackmagecompendium]

they're among us! lolol

[@thomasnguyen4427]

oh yeah, went through the whole song and dance, on my very first on-patch/current content raids of Endwalker p1-8. I liked making my own parties, because I religiously followed r/talesfromdf and the official forum version because the highly accessible and low barrier to entry requirements for ffxiv raiding were very appealing to me. Being worried about toxicity, negative or positive, straight-up griefing, gaslighting, or enabling gave me a lot of anxiety. Especially as I was coming off of an O9-12S prog group that had a lot of coddling attitude there. Thankfully, that experience allowed me to realize my own flaws in communication and attitude before I went onto the Party finder. So the anxieties about strangers soon resolved itself as I got more comfortable experimenting with different party descriptions, goals, and strategies. It was my favorite moments of ffxiv, on par with experiencing the MSQ. But I ain’t going back to that hellhole till Yoshi P stops being worshipped and excused for all the steaming piles of dung the game systems keep crapping out and people keep ignoring the glaringly obvious system flaws.