The Parthenon

[@posilipos]

Τhis is absolutely astonishing! Thank you very much!

[@graceygrumble]

The English - "The people have a special character, common to the whole nation, which makes them think they are superior to everyone else. It is a belief shared by all nations, each thinking itself the best. And they are all right." - Casanova. Let's get over the nationalistic bollocks. "If we hadn't have saved them..." "When we were building the Parthenon you were..." Which 'we' and 'you' are we talking about? You weren't alive when it was built, we didn't steal them. Legally, the Parthenon marbles belong to the British and they have looked after them as well as they could. They made mistakes, but no other nation would have done any better at the time. They have saved them and have them on display, free of charge, for the whole world to see. This is admirable. However, as a British person, alive now, looking back at the way in which these artifacts were acquired. I have to say it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I think we should give them back to Greece. In my opinion it's just, morally, the right thing to do.

[@JuLiA7TH]

I totally agree with that.

[@odalrich]

@Evolvedprimate Lord Elgin was the man who saved the Marbles from spoil and plunder, therefore these beautiful masterpieces ought to bear his name. Greece has an enourmous National Heritage which is incapable of preserving in a proper state and the British Museum is doing, and has done, a great mighty job to preserve these jewels for the whole world. The Marbles should be kept in the British Museum forever

[@kosijustkosi4177]

the english may had ''saved'' them in the past but now they must return to their homecountry !!!

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich What YOU don't seem to understand is that we're NOT talking about a window, but about our NATIONAL HERITAGE. This doesn't belong to a conqueror NOR to the one who came to an agreement with him. It BELONGS to the people who made this heritage. It belongs to the ones that build, fought, won, lost, died, enslaved, won their freedom, but kept this heritage alive cause it was the only thing they had to lean on. As for the existence of the Greek state, I answered you: "not as we know it".

[@YorgoSkep]

eccellent and meanigful animation!

[@77elvistheking]

And you feel proud of this...

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich "The British government and the head of the British Museum separately or together, have realized by now that they're fighting a lost battle. They know well that the documentation of the validity of Elgin's title deed is weak and ambiguous and the negative publicity they have gained from the case is huge. I am absolutely certain that the sculptures will go to Athens very soon." This is a statement at the press of a professor at the University of Cambridge. This was my last reply...

[@fissfars]

What is the name of the music playing in the background? It's very beautiful.

[@horsebackarchers]

Timoleon Filimon was first Greek asking to given back the marbles! Many decades after, same asked by Melina! Unfortunately administration circumstances in present-day Greece don't agree to this claim. marbles r.i.p. in the rooms of British Museum!

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters. Greece was an Ottoman province under Ottoman law; this is a fact in History. It wasn’t an occupied country like France (an example) during the German occupation. The possession of that province was recognised by the powers of that time. All transactions done under the laws of that period were legal, the Marbles were acquired with a firman (an Ottoman official document) from the Sultan, a Head of State recognised as such by the rest of the nations. This is as clear as daylight.

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters 1) Is there any documentation in which the "elder Turks" admit they've been bribed? I doubt it. The Parthenon was an ammunition depot that had been destroyed by Venetian artillery and there was no way of knowing which items were to be taken away and which were to stay. The British Museum has preserved these masterpieces throughout the ages so that the glory of Ancient Athens can be seen by the whole world (free of charge). The troubled history of Greece would have turned •••/••·

[@sellig66]

magnifique !

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters A fictional example: Muslim kingdom of Granada, South of the Iberian Peninsula, year 1485, Spain doesn't exist. An English envoy reaches the kingdom of Granada and gets, legally or illegally, or simply steals a piece of a window of the palace of the Alhambra, he sails back to England. Centuries later this piece appears in a British museum. The Spanish government decides that this piece must be "returned" to Spain. In your opinion, which should be the end of this story?

[@odalrich]

@Evolvedprimate I'm not acquainted with Lord Elgin's ethylic interests, but I must repeat that he saved the Marbles that Greece, due to its economic, political or whatever situation, was not able to preserve. If the creator is in a bad situation, it is normal for someone to acquire his work to preserve it. And this is precisely what Lord Elgin's did. I do not think the current economic situation in Greece can allow this country to manage the maintenance of this great work.

[@odalrich]

2)•/••• these wonders into dust. Neither Ottoman nor independent Greece gave much of a damn for the Heritage until recent times. The British Museum should be honoured by all Greeks for its enormous task of preserving this World Heritage. Your country is indebted down to its bones for the next generations and most likely you'll have to sell part of your remaining national heritage in order to comply with your debt commitments which you'll have to pay off during many years into the future.

[@motis94]

RETURN THEM HOME THIEVES!

[@ytalexomir]

The British were the last to have occupied the Parthenon. But what has caused the most damage to the temple is the Turkish occupation and the attack of the Venetians. They bombed the temple and he fell to pieces. I'm inflectional endings to bring the sculptures to Greece. The looting of King stupid should not use a British museum, but help renovate the temple.

[@odalrich]

@vabilas28 The damages to the Elgin Marbles occurred more than a century ago when there was insufficient knowledge about the restoration of ancient monuments; today these monuments are perfectly kept and their maintenance is highly professional. The global crisis has shown no mercy with Greece and I don't think that country has sufficient funds to maintain such a large national heritage. Most likely Greece will have to sell more monuments to pay off its enormous National Debt.

[@elenoragr]

superbus!!!

[@Evolvedprimate]

One final thing, the sculptures (not the marbles) were not taken to save them but to be sold so elgin would pay for his whiskey, this man had no appreciation for art or culture. So for you now to give me the excuse of saving them by this hooligan is insulting because you presume I do not know as much as you do.

[@odalrich]

If there are people (who are they?) working on the matter, why are you saying it wasn’t legal? Are you one of the people working on the subject? Personally I haven’t read any press - British or otherwise - stating that perhaps the transaction wasn’t so legal. Can you give me the names of this press?

[@odalrich]

I never said the Greeks would scribble graffiti on the Marbles; I was referring to a childish fellow (vabilas 28) on the web whose education leaves much to be desired. The only thing I understand is that it was a legal transaction with a legal government, according to international law, and no one has convinced me with logical evidence to think otherwise. The law prevails over national pride.

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich Let me summarize what YOU'RE SAYING: 1. the fact that the br.museum damaged the marbles doesn't makes it less serious BUT Greece can't preserve them -like the b.m. does- cause is not serious (by definition), 2. elgin didn't kept his part of the deal BUT IT'S OK the transaction is legal (by definition), 3. you PITY US cause we're being emotional when we hear the above (excuses). And you're calling me pathetic ? REALLY ?

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters Just for the sake of discussion: “Lord Elgin didn’t keep his part of the deal” OK, let’s accept this as the truth, AND SO WHAT? The Ottoman Administration didn’t complain. The Marbles were Ottoman, not Greek, remember? And this was accepted by the Powers of the day. Greece came into existence in 1830 (the year the sovereignty of Greece was confirmed by the London Protocol), prior to this date there wasn't, in History, a state called Greece. And this is History, not my invention.

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters It is the international press, not only British, that suggests Greece should sell monuments or islands to pay off the debt. There is no “casus belli” between Greece and Turkey because both countries are NATO members and neither this organisation nor the USA would accept a war involving both countries; so stop imagining things.

[@yuliezik]

If only the references to the British Museum did not exist...

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich One last infrmation for from an international news web page: "The key factor for instability in the Aegean is the Turkish casus belli, if Greece extend it's territorial waters from 6 nautical miles (11 km), to 12 nautical miles (22 km), as has been enshrined in treaty law by the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea of 1982 (Art.3).". Next time you'll try to say something TRY to broaden your horizons first, to open your mind AND A SERIOUS PAPER from time to time...

[@GeniusHaydn]

Give it back to the people it belongs too!!!!!!!!!!!!Without the Greeks, Western culture would not exist!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters When I mentioned the Sultan I was referring to his government, not to the actual Sultan. The name of the chap in the signature is irrelevant at this stage of the debate. Only SOME MARBLES were granted to Lord Elgin? OK, then, the Greek government ought to list those items not included on the firman and claim their property. As simple as this. The question is: is Greece in a position to assure the preservation and free public exhibition of these items? I don't think so.

[@Evolvedprimate]

Cultures are created not stolen. But don't forget the Greeks call them Elgin's marbles, a name the British use which shows that the Greeks don’t know what it is they want returned. The servile Greek ministry of culture adopted the name the British gave them instead of asking for the Parthenon sculptures, thus showing disrespect for the sculptures and ignorance in negotiations. If you want back something that is Greek you don’t ask for it using an English name.

[@adri1430]

@tetkou Well spoken!

[@Orangeflava]

that is all CGI? wow!

[@Sabbalonns]

@GeniusHaydn Sure the greeks were crazy amazing but they jacked stuff from earlier civilisations, just like we all do : )

[@Sabbalonns]

Its so awful that all these beautiful artifacts were taken, but at the time the places they were taken from may of been less then fit to keep them in good condition in which generations could of seen then. For example, great building that had stood for hundred of years like the Parthenon were simply destroyed by people who took the foundations to build their own houses ! Sure, maby its wrong to keep those artifacts on another countries soil, but isnt it more important that they are still here ?

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich Well actually I can't help my self for one last time... THIS is how YOU SHOWED YOUR RESPECT to the queen of Spain, while talking to a Greek before me: "If the latter let me remind you that she (THE QUEEN OF SPAIN) is Greek like you. Greek women aren't famous for their beauty". You're really something!

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich -----> The catalog holds the names of 225 very rich in natural resources countries and regions, many of whom YOU STILL LEECH. The press may focus on Greece but only because is a Euro-Zone country, which you’re not, BUT STILL this doesn’t change the fact that your mighty and serious country HAVE A MASSIVE FINANCIAL PROBLEM, which if ever blows is gonna "end the world as we know it". So, what went wrong with you? Where did this HUGE, ENORMOUSLY BIG FORTUNE -we never had one- went?

[@franknwalters]

FOR EVERYBODY ELSE TO READ: The debate between me and odalrich had to with whether the transaction that took place between lord asshole elgin & the turks, was leagal or not. Elgin didn't kept his part of the deal ripping off all the marbles from the Parthenon when the turks acording to the firman they signed were allowing him to make moulds and take ONLY some marbles & DEFINITELY NOT ALL. When odalrich couldn't make another excuse, he started insulting my country.

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich You wrote "Greek women aren't famous for their beauty" & you say MY public call is pathetic? Ha, ha ,ha... You're right man, I'm sorry... You're the man! I'm still living with my parents on the fifth decade of my life. I can't afford to live alone. I gave all the money I earned from my work to pay my country's debt. But still anything you say won't change the fact that this transaction was ILLEGAL by definition. This won't change no matter what you say about me or my country.

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters Unfortunately, some scratch marks have been left on the Marbles due to faulty restoration in 1930’s. They’ve been carefully taken care of with the latest technology and skills on the matter ever since. This damage would have been worse if they’d remained in the ruins of the Parthenon. Your public call is certainly pathetic, it sounds like this:” Mummy, Daddy, Odalrich is insulting me and he's a BAD PERSON!" I guess you're still living with Mom & Dad and old habits die hard.

[@franknwalters]

It was a month & a half ago & exactly 'cause I don't work on that matter (I just read & I care about it), I don't remember where exactly I've read it. There are people working on that matter, for sure you know that. Don't get me wrong but there're people for example who do exactly what you do (you probably -I hope- by mistake). That's by trying to ridicule us with silly accusations like that we can't preserve the Parthenon Marbles or that Athens has polution (fyi London it's more polluted).

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich Stop playing with words... 1.The fact tha the turks didn't comlain or reclaimed the marbles is besides the fact that the deal is ILLEGAL. 2.The fact that there was no Greek state AS WE KNOW IT is irrelative too. 3.My résumé? Lets see what you wrote----->"is Greece in a position to assure the preservation?" IS not WAS. My country's debt issue brougth to you cause--->"You people should be tackling the serious problems affecting your country and not claiming things that you'll never get"

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich 9. As for the window from Granada I told you WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT A WINDOW. We're talking of what these marbles REPRISENTS and this don't belong to the seller NOR the buyer. It can't be sold. IT"S LIKE ASKING to put a price on freedom of speech, or dignity. There's NO VALUE for these things, although SOME OF YOU there in the island do exactly this thing. Let me remind you the revelations for your prime minister lately of how he worked his way up...

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich SOME MARBLES !

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters Your résumé is wrong, you haven't understood what I was saying in my posts. Were not serious the practitioners of the eighteenth century because the mortality of their patients was higher than that of the XXI century? Can you assure that Greek experts, after independence, would have done better at preserving the Marbles? Nowadays you have a huge National Heritage that is crumbling down to pieces, according to some reports I’ve read. And this isn’t my invention.

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters Look, chum, I never said you had to apologise. I’ve never questioned your knowledge of engineering & architecture and your love for beautiful things; I’ve just questioned your knowledge of international trade. In Elgin’s time there was a commercial transaction between him and the Sultanate according to the laws that existed at that time. This transaction was legal.

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters 1) I introduced the debt issue in the debate because there is a relationship between wanting to acquire a large collection of art and being unable to finance what you possess. The immoral terms imposed on Greece by the markets (they have insulted you, not me) have made you indebted to the bones. This, unfortunately, is the truth, not an insult on my part. If you've been led to believe that I have been malicious to you, I apologize. When debating issues, you mustn’t be so touchy.

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich You want me to apologise? NO sir... You see I've done my reading. I studied 5 years to become a civil engineer and another 4 to become an architect. What I've learned sir is how to build things, how to respect the some of highest forms of human civilization. What I certainly didn't learn is how to destroy beautiful things using some 600 y.o. laws to justify my stupidity. You don't have to read anything to become something like that... sir...

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich As for the "wishful thinking" ... ...since when the (reasoned) opinion of a HIGH educated and at the highest level active professor (at the University of Cambridge) is wishful thinking ? Can't escape your self right? Typical... It's a good thing you wrote that it's your last communication. Keep it that way...

[@odalrich]

Though neither the Spanish queen nor the British one is my monarch, I respect them very much, and I don’t like seeing them insulted. I don’t judge things according to their nationality, but according to evidence: you’ve failed to prove Greece has a juridical right to claim the Elgin Marbles. I’ve given you a fictional example to go on discussing this matter, but you haven’t replied. I think you don't reply because you realize there is no case and, therefore, nothing further to be discussed.

[@odalrich]

@kyriacos40 I'm extremely glad your mom was so gorgeous as to arouse your teacher, and that your sister altered the hormones of your teenage school mates. I think your teacher should’ve been more discreet to avoid possible psychological traumas to you. All our school mates used to get randy with our sisters and female cousins, this is quite normal at this early age. We’ve never met and we're not likely to do so in a foreseeable future, therefore your dislike of me is totally irrelevant.Cheerio.

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich 5. You haven't heard of Vicky??? What, you didn't pay your subscription to "The Sun"? 6.I work until 23:00 sometimes at my office, but I can't ignore a KZbin's email saying I have an answer from you. I laugh at you REMEMBER? 7.I'm not a boy, YOU probably are which explains why your arguments are SO WEAK. 8.DON'T UNDERESTIMATE what you don't know. That goes for the Hellenic Forces. We've spent a great deal of money to insure no-threat from türkiye...and they're DAMN GOOD.

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters Greece was then part of the Ottoman Empire, recognised by the whole civilised world as such at that particular time, therefore, the sale of the marbles to Lord Elgin was totally legal. You ought to read some books on International law before insulting and using foul language.

[@anaisabelwensley-walker4348]

(Non)Euclidean Space...

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich And just because you're keep bringing on my country's debt issue (which is irrelative) in a HUMILIATING WAY... ...how come the UK has such a HUGE FINANCIAL PROBLEMS, that we all read about in the International Economic Press (with the exception of uk press)? We're talking of a serious country which FOR CENTURIES SUCKS to the last drop it's colonies wealth. And we're not talking about 10 or 20 countries & regions. The catalog holds the names of ---->

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich NO, NO, NO, Noooo YOU DIDN'T JUST say that she's not pretty. YOU SAID she's ugly like all Greek women are... HUGE DIFFERENCE ! This goes further than showing no respect to the women of a CERTAIN NATIONALITY or to a queen. This is CALLED RACISM, which when it joins your chauvinism and density, gives us the three basic elements of the gorgeous person that (you think) you are... I'll give you an advice old man, keep those elements to your self. In fact keep your self to your self.

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters Look boy, you're not really conscious of the present situation your country is going through; Greece can't even declare war on the Principality of Monaco, let alone the Republic of Turkey whose economy is growing like a giant's. The outcome of a conflict with Turkey might end with Greece, once an Ottoman province, turned into a Turkish province. We don't want this to happen, do we? I’m sure you can be more serious than that.

[@odalrich]

@franknwalte You won’t give up, will you? I stand by what I said before, the acquisition of the Marbles was done through a legal transaction; you haven't proved otherwise. What I said about Greek women in the past was because a guy was rude to two Queens and my reply was tit for tat. When provoked, I shoot back, and I don’t enjoy it; sometimes I pity people who are so emotional. The BM made an unintentional mistake when restoring the marbles, 80 years ago; this does not make it less seriously.

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich Now please excuse me, I have to go... I'm gonna sell my Mercedes to help my country pay off it's debt... I think I'll be ok with just my X6. It's a cruel world we live in... :D)))))

[@toontownkiddy]

@posilipos i cant dance

[@77elvistheking]

What? You jealous that when Greeks were talking about the earth being spherical you were still on trees?

[@franknwalters]

Oh, yes... The legal transaction again. Why don't you let those who ACTUALY work on this matter to decide if it was a legal transaction or not. I recently read in the international press (british too), that there were found even more evidences to prove once and for all that this transaction wasn't legal AT ALL. You see it wasn't legal. It's just an excuse the BM uses so to not give the marbles back to Greece. But it'll eventually run out of excuses. So, sit back and watch a movie or something...

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters The opinion of my friends on Greek management is rather negative. Yes, they would laugh at me if they knew I'm wasting my time debating with a Greek. A piece of advice: sell your Mercedes to a foreign tourist, so you can inject fresh money into your shattered economy, if you sell it to a fellow Greek you'll get paid with money already committed to debt and this wouldn't be of much help; as you say: this is a cruel world. Cheerio, old boy, and don't do anything I wouldn't do.

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters I cannot dedicate time to replying all the posts I receive from people who have all the time in the world as they have nothing better to do. I'm not mentioning any names!! ha ha ha. I haven't got the faintest idea if Vicky Beckham is pregnant; if she is, I have nothing to do with it. I promise! Must reply the fictional International Law problem (Kingdom of Granada) it is related to our debate and we can’t go on with it if you don’t reply.

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters

[@marianodeanquin]

Devuelvalen los tesoros a Grecia

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich And you're becoming more contentious by asking if the Greece can assure the preservation of the marbles. The city of Athens for some years now has one of the finest museums globaly only for these marbles. A museum designed by Bernard Tschumi. You should visit its web page... Now are you gonna keep reproducing the stupid excuses of Br. Museum or you gonna think something clever by you self?

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters Look, you're going on the same issue over and over again and we're getting nowhere. I told you I have not invented anything. The International business press makes the comments every time they talk about Greece. One of the latest comments, in addition to selling more national heritage, is to sell Greek islands to international multibillionaires. My own opinion is you could sell part of the islands off the Turkish coast to Turkey; its economy is doing very well.

[@odalrich]

@vabilas28 It seems that after granting me some nationalities that had nothing to do with me , now you're trying to change my sex, it seems that intelligence is not your strong point. Lord Elgin acquired the marbles legally and took them out of the Ottoman Empire with an official permit ( FIRMAN), therefore the arrival of this material in London was due to a legal transaction. You should learn more about this before writing anymore nonsense.

[@franknwalters]

It's the Parthenon Marbles NOT Elgin marbles... What is your problem man? For years now you're dealing with something you simply CAN'T COMPREHEND, with only obvious goal to humiliate the Greeks as a nation. You can't... WE would start scribbling graffiti on the marbles? This comes from those who brushed the marbles with a steel brush, causing an IRREVOCABLE DAMAGE on them? For God's sake man, stop being mean. U seem to be a moderately smart person. What u do underestimates your own inteligence.

[@odalrich]

@vabilas28 Good bye, comrade.

[@Evolvedprimate]

@odalrich In order for you to peddle your petty excuse you have to show respect for the most famous sculptures in the world and stop calling them marbles. May be sculptures is a bit too civilizing for you and prefer stones of the marble variety, I have to converse in an equal level so this is the end.

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters …/…2) there is an answer and I’m waiting for yours. Marble engravings of verses from the Koran, you thought windows were not important. “what these marbles REPRISENTS which don't belong to the "seller" NOR the "buyer". It can't be sold” This is an exercise on ambiguity, not a reply. “Greece certainly don't want to have any war at all (unlike you)” Where did I say I wanted a war? I expect you’re not a liar. You refer to Britain with insults: sorry I’m not British.

[@odalrich]

@franknwalters What you write in your post is wishful thinking. If it ever happens, it'll be for political reasons, not because the law backs the claims of Greece. I do respect the queen of Spain; nevertheless I must confess she wouldn't win a beauty contest. Wotan (if Danish) or Zeus (if Greek) didn't endow her with the gift of beauty. My last communication.

[@franknwalters]

@odalrich HA, ha, ha. I have a better idea. I'll send the money to your country Spain although I think you're british. These countries has worst problems than ours. You see here the country might have some problems but the people don't have any real problem. 10 million greeks has 830 billion euros only in Swiss banks. Does this sounds like a problem to you? We have enough money in our pockets to pay your debt too. And just cause I like you call me if you need some help with your rent or debt

[@odalrich]

@Evolvedprimate I'm not acquainted with Lord Elgin's ethylic interests, but I must repeat that he saved the Marbles that Greece, due to its economic, political or whatever situation, was not able to preserve. If the creator is in a bad situation, it is normal for someone to acquire his work to preserve it. And this is precisely what Lord Elgin's did. I do not think the current economic situation in Greece can allow this country to manage the maintenance of this great work.