The Patriot is Still Trash

[@JamesJohnson-wq6bs]

Oriskany Jim here. Another great video about everyone's favorite Revolutionary War movie ... favorite to laugh at, that is. God, the amount to go through with just this scene ... The "Blue & Buff" uniforms you mention only came out near the very end of the war for enlisted men. Which technically this is ... (Camden, August 1780) But at least 2/3 of the Patriot force here weren't Continental Regulars at all, but state militia. So they shouldn't be wearing blue AT ALL. As you say, even the Continental Regulars would be threadbare in the extreme.

[@JamesJohnson-wq6bs]

Great point on the open road and the empty house, I actually never caught that before. Especially since Camden basically takes place between two swamps (one reason there wasn't that much flanking in this fight) There is no road along the side of the battlefield, only one straight through it. But the way the movie battlefield is SHOT, yeah, leaving the flanks that wide open with THAT much manpower on the field is silly.

[@JamesJohnson-wq6bs]

Absolutely right on the British line. The American Revolution I think was when the British were moving away form the 3-line battalion formation of the Seven Years War, down to a two-rank formation. But these six and eight-deep almost starts to look like a Napoleonic column. :P

[@leonleese4919]

The Brit army because of a shortage of replacements the 2 rank line was a necessary change but although Dundas made quite a few changes to drill it was the younger officers Moore in particular whose suggestions altered things for light infantry tactics. Wellesley favoured a 2 deep line, he also favoured a half company frontage having half the battalion standing back out of the way of artillery but close enough to support the front 2 ranks against cavalry. I shall have to read more about his early career. I think he had a Brigade at Copenhagen. I have Wellers book on the Peninsula and “The Years of the Sword” and I think Wellington in India which I haven’t yet read, too busy with my SYW Books.

[@leonleese4919]

Brit army regimental lace if white then officers would wear silver lace. The regimental colour if St. George’s cross the facing colour would be red or white. 33rd foot had white facings

[@AnotherHistorianWargamer]

Correct although the men shown had blue hence my question. Buff and Red faced Regiments always muck up the nicely ordered system.

[@leonleese4919]

@@AnotherHistorianWargamer blue faced regiments had a blue regimental colour and white or yellow lace and white metal buttons or brass buttons. Of course officers had silver or gold buttons. Buff faced regiments had buff regimental colours and again white or yellow lace and buttons. Yellow regimental colours had different shades of yellow depending on the regiment as did green regimental colours. My Wargames competition army for infantry was Halketts brigade 1815 30th, 33rd, 69th and 73rd for line infantry and a half battalion of light infantry. Also the light companies were brigaded together. This was in the mid 1970’s when 25mm figures were used when it changed to 15mm figures and a 8ft. X 4ft. Table. This meant the battalion frontages were halved so flanks were open. Very enjoyable.

[@OrlopRat42]

The extras in this travesty had no choice but to turn their heads away when discharging their firelocks since the director insisted on mixing magnesium into the black powder to create a bigger and brighter (and very hot and unsafe) flash.

[@AnotherHistorianWargamer]

Ouch that explains it

[@JamesJohnson-wq6bs]

Then only addition I would make to this is the Tarleton cavalry charge and massacre. I think the "infamous" massacre of the "Butcher Tarleton" tales place a couple months before Camden at Waxhaus (where the Patriots surrender, Lt. Colonel Barristre Tarleton is unhorsed, and the "misunderstading" ensures). BY the time Camden happens, I think that Waxhaus incident is a few months prior and the reputation of "The Butcher Tarelton" is already established. The only real thing this movie gets right about this battle is the description of Gates afterwards: riding at full panic speed away from the battle, his staff 200 yards behind trying to catch up. I don't LIKE "defending" The Patriot ... but the only think I hate worse than this movie is the real life General Horatio Gates. :D :D :D

[@AnotherHistorianWargamer]

Thanks for the comments Jim. I assumed the movie just smashed a bunch of battles together. The British were moving towards a 3 Rank Line since the French and Indian War. In the 45 Jacobite Rebellion the practice of the front rank kneeling was stopped then during the French Indian War the Regulars became more flexible. At the Plains of Abraham the British were in two ranks but that was only because they needed to stretch the line between two anchors on the flanks. The British often get a lot of flak for their rigid behaviour in the Revolution but compared to the rest of Europe the British were pretty flexible and adaptive. Great point on the uniforms. The Perry Miniatures Continental box leaflet is a great resource for just how varied the uniforms were and even then the leaflet says this is only a small fraction of the total.

[@JamesJohnson-wq6bs]

@@AnotherHistorianWargamer - Yeah, I completely agree that the saber charge we see "Tavington's" Tory Legion executing here is literally what such cavalry units are supposed to do. I never even got the idea that (ahem) "Tavington" was branded as the movie's villain because of this scene, but for shooting Mel Gibson's son, wanting to hang Heath Ledger, later SHOOTING Heath Ledger (spoilers) and of course the church scene (and a few other deleted scenes with literal torture chambers). What makes it even more ironic is that the battle at the end (at least supposed to be Cowpens ... according to the credits) ... historically featured a devastating AMERICAN cavalry / saber charge under command of Colonel William Washington, George Washington's younger cousin. So the idea that Tarleton's "Tory Legion" is using unacceptable tactics here COMPLETELY holds no water. Completely agree with your bewilderment on that one. :D

[@JamesJohnson-wq6bs]

@@AnotherHistorianWargamer We may have different sources, or maybe this was a North American thing opposed to continental warfare thing (about which I know much much much less ... basically nothing). But the British battalions IN AMERICA were almost always in 2-file formations. I have no idea about the British Army in general. :)

[@AnotherHistorianWargamer]

@@JamesJohnson-wq6bs Two in North America and three for Europe is the standard I've usually come across, the British for all the things people say about them did actually develop some pretty good techniques for moving and fighting in the North American Theatre. The French and Indian War started to move that way although given how few actual proper battles were fought with enough prep time to worry about such things it doesn't really mean much, more moving than fighting.

[@JamesJohnson-wq6bs]

@@AnotherHistorianWargamer - Awesome. Yeah, that's generally what I've always read as well. One of these days I need to plunge a little more into 7YW and Napoleonics. :D

[@martinidry6300]

The Redcoats ALL have Royal blue facings. There are no Light Infantrymen for either side. The regular infantrymen have zero campaign modifications, zero tactical awareness ( even at Concord in 1775, the Redcoats used basic outflanking manoeuvres as a matter of course after Merrian's Corner - inflicting more casualties than many people think) and by the Southern Campaign were tooled up & looked pretty salty.