The perils of being a premium car marque (Jaguar, Maserati and Alfa Romeo) | Ti podcast 230

[@Aliens_Gonna_Get_Ya]

Wish u could put up pics of cars u r discussing…

[@michaelacedeno]

This

[@aaronhussain3873]

When Andrew said he'd skip over the Alfa pre-war road cars because the audience wouldn't be interested, all I can say is I disagree! The 6Cs, 8Cs, and RLs are some of the most glorious cars in the world.

[@benzinapaul7416]

Don't forget when comparing prices of Maseratis and Alfas to Jaguars and other British brands - up to the mid 1970s imported cars were taxed heavily in the UK. The same applied in reverse in the Italian market. Alfa also won the World Sports Car Championship in the 1970s with the 33 and also had huge successes in saloon car racing in the 1990s with the 155 and 156. Maserati also had success with the MC12 in sports car racing in the 2000s, albeit an Enzo in disguise.

[@Finlandese]

And the Alfa GTV6 winning in the eighties, GTA Alfa´s in the Sixties and the seventies.

[@targaflorio3239]

Good discussion in general but a bit too much British bias. Maserati is struggling yet Jaguar are giving electric a go. They’re both struggling for sales and doing the same thing! Alfa needing to consult Lotus for advice when Ferrari have produced some of the greatest mid engine cars ever built.

[@usualdog]

Alfa's demise was exacerbated by the UK dealer network which has been unfit for purpose for decades. The 156 was a great car that attracted a lot of new buyers to the brand, but the shoddy dealer experience sent them straight back to BMW or Audi when it was time to change.

[@fraserwright9482]

I disagree with the idea that Alfa/Maser should have asked Lotus for advice. It was built by Dallara. I find the Flag shagger aspect of the intercooler grinding as the automotive world and others have moved on

[@09juliancarr]

So, the way to fix Jaguar and Maserati (since Alfa is on it’s way) is to provide ABSOLUTE luxury and reliability. People who have RR Spectres are saying that it’s the best car (not the best electric) they own and they are racking up mileage (which means they are being used). Beautiful styling, Lexus customer service and make sure replacement stock is in play so sown time is a minimum. Limit production, so that your numbers add up and be patient building the brand back up. Imagine it will take 20 years - it might be less as they have great brand equity

[@Kelveron]

Maserati's current line up has very good cars, including the MC20, the new GranTurismo. Versions of it SUVs, the Grecale and Levante have received decent reviews too.

[@09juliancarr]

@@Kelveron but they are not selling as hoped (reflected in the discounts off nearly new). That's why it has to be on the 'service wrap'

[@urbanstrencan]

Great podcast episode, I really don't know what happened to Jaguar, they should keep F Type as niche V8 coupe 😍😍😍😍.

[@Aliens_Gonna_Get_Ya]

Andrew’s knowledge continues 2 amaze… 👍😊

[@Kelveron]

Frankel really laid into the way the Maserati GranTurismo drove, but I remember reading that the MC Stradale version at least was praised for its driving dynamics! Perhaps Frankel didn't test that version.

[@fraserwright9482]

Plus it was one of the best sellers in Europe, Asia and America. He sounds like Alan Partridge talking about old Jags

[@davidturgeon2087]

Complete nonsense about the 4C's steering. Yes, the 4C came from the factory with zero steering caster and a consequent lack of straight-line stability. However, Alfaworks, the U.K. Alfa specialist, sells replacement alignment blocks that add in some steering caster and the straight-ahead stability that comes with it. But, contrary to expectations, the additional caster the Alfaworks blocks provides does NOT make the steering appreciably heavier at slow speeds, so that theory is not borne out by reality. As the 4C designers have stated, the 4C's "lively", no caster steering was a conscious design decision made in favour of a quick turn-in, and was not made to correct "heavy steering" from the unassisted rack when set up with a more normal increased caster angle. It's surprising no mention was made of Alfa's more recent periodic dominance of the German and European touring car series with their 155 and 156 race cars. The videos of many of those races are still up for viewing, and they make for some of the best touring car racing action. The stories of the cars' development and Alfa's race winning strategies are legendary. Also surprising is that no mention was made of Alfa's modern Giulia and Stelvio models, other than the Q.V. editions. These are surely two of the best driving options in their respective segments, and deserved better marketing and an improved dealer network to achieve sales numbers to equal their driving abilities. Hopefully, Alfa will keep their platform around so they can continue to build superior ICE models if and when the EV market collapses from lack of buyer interest.

[@jeanlambrechts2102]

Sans oublier le succès d'Alfa en course avec des routières dans les années 50 et 60, je pense notamment aux coupés Bertone et aux Giulia!

[@pereldh5741]

Some factchecking may have been good. The 1st Fiat-based Alfa was 155 presented 1992, not ”the early 80’s” - and so on. Giulia Q another glaring omission (just to make your point). Overall the usual british protectionisms. Naa, you can do better! Next time! 😊

[@wasdwasdwwasd]

164

[@frednerk8366]

No matter how good to drive, people didn't want the likes of an AlfaSud or a Lancia to dissolve after a couple of years. Great engines, terrible corrosion problems.

[@PointNemo9]

So what cars were good at that time?

[@johnnyboy1586]

Salt on the roads in winter doesn't help

[@pereldh5741]

Agreed, Fiat always done great engines - to this day

[@JoeDaeHimself]

Alfa Romeo rust issue is like Mercedes total reliability. A thing of the past, that became a myth despite being totally superseded nowadays.

[@elnyoutube123]

Alfas have had very good rust protection since the early 90s, even earlier actually when the 164 came out in the late 80s.

[@jpl8878]

Have to say I strongly disagree with your conclusion. You commend Jaguar for taking a chance to reinvent themselves by going fully electric, but condemn Maserati for doing the same thing. They're discontinuining the Ghibli and Levante, introducing electric variants of every other model, and transitioning to fully electric by 2030. Maserati's strategy is extremely similar to Jaguar's; they're just not taking a sabbatical from making cars. If both marques are still around by the end of the decade I'd expect them to be direct competitors in the premium EV space. Why one company gets your plaudits and optimism and the other skepticism isn't at all clear.

[@cabra2365]

Fun fact: the Italian product strategy manager who made the plan for Jaguar to be 'reborn fully electric' moved to Maserati and copy-pasted his plan there.

[@jpl8878]

@@cabra2365 very interesting. What's his name? The only Jaguar to Maserati mover I can find is Amey Tingare, but it doesn't sound like he was involved in Jaguar's Reimagine strategy.

[@dirkcuypers6669]

I loved the subject but think you slightly mist the present alfa romeo's. The 8c is a limited production run from 15 year's ago and the 4c is a very niche market sportscar. The Giulia isn't talked about but in my opinion more important to look where alfa romeo stands today.

[@morgankunyu]

Reliability or the lack there of has been the only reason from considering Jags, Ranger Rovers, and etc..

[@14Unow]

In living memory, Jaguar is far more successful. Speaking to my dad yesterday, and he's 89, he will extol the virtues of the Xk120, C and D Types, and Mark 2 Jag with louvred bonnet he once owned.

[@I.LikeCars]

Perspective from the US. Alfa Romeo really has no presence here, they had left the market for 30 years, and came back about 10 years ago, and I think that its just not enough time, nor enough new products to build the brand equity to be a player in the BMW/Mercedes space. Maserati is plagued by poor reliability and quality perceptions, and I think they also took a long vacation from our market. Jaguar just doesn't have the right products for our market and most think of them as a sedan brand, in a time where only CUV's sell in large numbers. As you covered, it's just tough to be in the same segment as BMW/Mercedes, even Audi doesn't do as well in our market.

[@MrRaitzi]

Alfa made mistake not having 2 door version of Giulia. It should have given it better lines. Like a classy M4

[@bishwatntl]

When did the rot set in for Alfa? Perhaps when the Alfasuds would sit there fizzing with rust?

[@fraserwright9482]

I don't think it was anything to do with rust, like the French market they occupied a segment that was taken over by Japanese who are now being consumed by the Koreans.

[@bishwatntl]

That's another perspective, but that model was very prone to rust.

[@phillsmith9255]

When it comes to motor sport, I think of Jaguar and there Le Mans wins.

[@prakashnarismulu3332]

Could Stirling Moss have been world champion if he stayed with Maserati ?

[@joachimjensen6584]

Ehhmmm 😂 keep keeping on!

[@dominicanwar363]

None of your headline companies make cars that last any longer (in any real metric) than the warranty.

[@pereldh5741]

Alfa does? What are u on about

[@robertedwards3551]

Each of these marques fails because they can't adequately answer a fundamental question which is: why? Why should someone buy them in preference to others? There isn't a compelling answer for any of these brands.

[@JoeDaeHimself]

All good and dandy, please keep telling me how BMW / Audi / Mercedes are true to themselves, either their horrendous SUV their entry level shitboxes and their dreadful engineering. I'll wait.

[@JoshuaKoerner]

I think the EV market trends are being intentionally obfuscated by the notoriously lazy and margin-seeking OEM's. I think that on average, in the US at least, the new car buyer is within a decade of retirement. These people are not largely speaking super interested in technology, like younger people might be. Cars today are techno-transport, hardly focused on the driving experience. Join together the primary car buying audience not being interested in technology for technology's sake, having difficulty working all the screens, distracted by all the bongs, and knowing that their car is selling their location and driving data to impact their insurance premiums, and the fact that the EV's that many car makers put out in their first wave are not good cars, and of course the EV market isn't going where it could do. Manufacturers are not interested in change. Oil interests are not interested in change. I think that there is a healthy interest in EV's and other powertrains, but the lobbying has done it's job, and the manufacturers have put just barely enough effort in to call it a good faith effort so they can go back to ICE with data to push back to legislators. It's just a sham.

[@smiffyLevel6]

It really doesn’t matter about the racing history of these marque’s, they are purely judged on their road cars. Jaguar expensive, poor tech, dubious quality control and a bit Fuddy Daddy design and appeal (massively disappointing) Alfa Romeo poor quality and tech, poor resale value, they sound better than they drive (massively disappointing) Maserati very limited offering, ridiculously expensive for what they are, poor tech and horrendous depreciation (massively disappointing) Just my opinion?

[@elnyoutube123]

Yes, it is just your opinion. Factually you are wrong.

[@smiffyLevel6]

@@elnyoutube123 in your opinion?

[@theorderofeli]

@@smiffyLevel6clearly you never owned any of them.

[@DaleSteel]

Ha ha ha Jaguar can't even rival Kia so they've no chance with Bentley