"The Phosphorus Paradox" with Dr. Christine Jones (Part 2/4)

April 6th 2021
Dr. Christine Jones turns our perception of phosphorus upside down with this presentation on available phosphorus in our soils.
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[@tomf.2274]

Just as good second time around and the Q&A is great to stay for to folks. Thanks again for bringing this to us.

[@nicolasbertin8552]

I've only started gardening on a big scale (1800 m²) 5 years ago. Yet I've never used phosphate or any phosphorous fertilizer. I trained by watching youtube videos of living soil farmers/gardeners, we are lucky to have a big community of those sharing their knowledge here in France. And one of the first things you learn is this : don't till unless absolutely compacted, always cover your soil with cover crops or mulch. That's it. And then you get the usual questions : what about nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium... And the answers were clear and simple : in a living soil, you don't need any of that. For nitrogen, since most of our soils have been badly treated with tillage and naked soils, you would often need to add manure, compost or grass clippings to supplement hungry crops. But for phosphorous, potassium, and all the other minerals, the answer from those videos were always the same : you simply get them from mycorrhizae. In tilled soil, you need fertilizers coz you've destroyed those networks. But in a living soil, you're fine. Fungi break down rocks with special enzymes and give minerals to plants in exchange for sugar. Marc André Selosse videos for that are amazing if you can find subtitles. So for the average gardener the lesson is : don't worry about it. You don't need to learn all the colours of the mineral deficient leaves depending on the mineral... It just works. And over the years I can tell you it definitely works... I have an alkaline clay soil where phosphorous is supposedly "blocked". It's not. I use a lot of wood chips, composts, cover crops, etc... and only till if it's a never cultivated area that's compacted. So now I just know that all mycorrhized plants will get everything their need from the soil, and the ones who aren't, like cabbage, already know how to do it. So all that BS about a phosphate crisis coming up because there's only a few phosphate mines in the world needs to stop. Do forests need phosphate fertilizers ? Do prairies ? Of course not...

[@gfgf2417]

Do you think shallow tillage (3"-4") destroys the mycorrhizae networks? In my farming practices I need tillage for weed control and to prepare a good seed bed.

[@nicolasbertin8552]

@@gfgf2417 it'll destroy fungi and most worms yeah. If you do it twice a year it's a disaster. If you need a good seed bed just Sow in a layer of mature compost on top of naked soil. And the next crop after this one should be with mulch Coz you don't want compost only. That compost technique is only useful for small seeds. Bigger ones like beans, peas or squashes can pierce through the mulch. Same with onion and garlic bulbs.

[@gfgf2417]

@@nicolasbertin8552 im farming on a larger scale. 50 acre fields growing organic monoculture crops, soybeans, wheat, oats. i add straw based manure and sawdust based manure every fall (hoping sawdust will be food for microbes). weeds still grow so its not really a monoculture. also plant red clover and field pea for nitrogen and tillage radish in fall to break up soil. now that you have a better understanding of my situation any suggestions?

[@nicolasbertin8552]

@@gfgf2417 I'm no expert in that sorry. I think cover crops are much better in your case, but then you need a special sowing attachment for your tractor, then a rolling machine for the cover crop. The key for good cover crop is multiple plant families : at least 4. Something like rye, fava beans, phacelia, till radish and chicoree as a winter cover crop.

[@richm5889]

@@gfgf2417 Use other techniques for forcing weeds out. One is planting so there isn't bare soil available for weed. Another is to cut weeds off at the ground level rather than till them out, pull the roots out or do anything else that will disturb the soil. You can drag a hoe across the surface and basically disrupt small weeds enough so that they will stop growing. Obviously obviously a hoe is a small scale solution and you will need something larger but not a tiller. For larger and more persistent weeds you may have to cut them at ground level a couple of times. Having robbed it of photosynthesis when it's small, the roots become exhausted and give up. No less a gardening guru than Eliot Coleman in Maine says it is accurate to use the word "know" as in weed seeds over 2 inches down know they don't have enough energy to germinate and successfully produce a plant so they remain dormant. You never get rid of weeds entirely but the reason you have a significant weed problem may in fact be tilling three or four inches down. Having a cover crop when I'm not planning the food crop out competes the weeds and then planting intensively enough that my food plants shade out the weeds takes care of it the rest of the season. I'll get weeds occasionally but just occasionally, nothing like when I used to dig up the soil.

[@babystepsgardening9414]

This is the first time I’ve heard Dr. Jones. Amazing information & thank you for sharing it freely!

[@growpuravida]

Thank you so so much Dr Jones, we learn oceans from you and are extremely grateful for your shared wisdom. Hopefully you will drag us out of the 17th century mindset about growing plants (South Florida here)....

[@stevesavage8784]

Remember that Nz is a volcanic island with plenty phos in the rocks and the soil. Other geological settings may be quite different, with very low natural phos which will need supplementary P.

[@tonysu8860]

Glad the YT algorithm recommended this presentation to me. The title may be accurate but is also misleading. This presentation is so much more than just Phosphorous. It's what makes up a better soil biology and chemistry, the role of phosphorous in it, the prevalence of phosphorous and where the real bottleneck is that's obstructing phosphorous update in plants. Along the way, there is a detailed description and explanation of current understanding of soil microbiota and its critical role in the health of plants. This is a new understanding of what Mother Earth is, as a living entity that symbiotically supports all living things including humans. This is what farmers and agriculturalists should be learning, not the many other presentations and topics on agricultural solutions, this is the explanation at a more fundamental level that underpins why certain practices are now recommended over what was practiced before.

[@Prometheus4096]

She is presenting a hypothesis as fact. There is also tons of evidence out there that unhealthy plants (for whatever reason) give perfectly healthy seeds and a healthy crop. Doesn't mean soil isn't important. But the idea that plants inherit health and that this is explained by endophyte is a radical idea that lacks sufficient evidence.

[@muragurimuchira5546]

Great insights Dr. Christine!Our lives are better with such knowledge.

[@MrMichaelStangl]

Thank you Christine for all your support n contributions, cheeeeers!

[@benvanjaarsveld5779]

Thank you Christine, hope and pray for your health. May the Lord bless you in helping restore His land.

[@Beesmakelifegoo]

Thank you Dr Christine. It’s incredible how much cooperation is required for life to thrive. About cramps perhaps you need more magnesium to help relax. I appreciate what you are explaining. Making one aware that producing healthy soil Is key to one’s survival shows the urgency at hand. It makes me recognize that through understanding,non farmers will contribute with a political purpose. (recycling as The Goal. As for example filling the bins at the Union Square Market in New York. I have been bringing bags of egg shells from a local coffee house. Margo S Abady

[@user-sp1jv5jz1b]

Brilliant series of webinars though which has opened my eyes to the new thinking within soil science!

[@FredLinden]

Thank you. Great information.

[@lukebieniek9069]

Wowee fungi-bioramma!!!!!😃 This was a most informative deep dive into a world that needs our help. The more detail, the more facinating, urgent & motivating. Its going to be fun😃 learning to survive, thrive & save the world & all of its wonderful lifeforms. Thank you, Professor Christine Jones for compiling, nurturing, & so generously, tirelessly sharing. 🥰🤩 🤨👍👀🌈🌞⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

[@cgodwin336]

Such an amazing and encouraging presentation. Much easier to understand the principles, I'm learning so much and this helps. Connecting the dots little by little. We bought a seed drill and plan to stop heavy discing our deer food plots. Thanks for helping educate me so I can understand what our creator truly has to offer. Thank you all.

[@veggietables8878]

Thank you so much! (from a biological agriculturalist in NZ.)

[@mariannegibson1407]

A wonderful learning opportunity, I've taken such a lot of information and inspiration away from this, thank you so much! :)

[@allolobophorus]

The fascinating world of the Rhizosphere!

[@susantillander2080]

How do we put a biostimulant on the seed?

[@familyfarmertn8931]

What was book y'all were talking about in the beginning?

[@bobthrasher8226]

According to AdvancingEcoAg, sap analysis is preferred to tissue analysis because the sap reflects the current nutritional state of the plant and responds more quickly to treatment than the tissue.

[@Forester-qs5mf]

Depends on what you are growing. Might be worth doing in high value horticultural crops. For pasture, you want to understand the longer term picture and spend less on constant testing which is why tissue sampling is more suitable.

[@user-sp1jv5jz1b]

One point you guys may be able to clear up is, if phosphorus is very immobile, doesn't move more than 5-10 cm down the soil profile after application, how then does it get to make calcium di- or tri-phosphate? Also, am I getting this correct then in saying that the huge amount of phosphates that end up in streams and rivers comes from soil surface run-off, and not by getting washed out of the soil as groundwater, due to its immobility?

[@michelbisson6645]

very good

[@rjaquaponics9266]

Living soil produces healthy crops. It was very interesting to learn how Big Ag made such a huge mistake of testing with dead sterile dirt! I have built and grew veg using aquaponics. I understand the nitrogen cycle, but I don't under how plants get everything they need from the water. All I know is aquaponic grown veg is incredibly tasty and healthy. The roots are snow white when the system is most healthy. I know there has to be more going on than just nitrates. I wonder if Dr. Jones could comment on aquaponics?

[@nicolasbertin8552]

Unless you compare the Brix levels of your plants to one grown in a normal living soil, just saying "they're incredibly tasty" isn't very convincing. Something grown outside a soil is in my opinion a really bad thing. You do it if you absolutely have to, like if you have only a balcony, or a very urbanised environment, but when possible, normal farming, in a proper soil, should be the way. But I gotta tell you, hydroponics vegetables are awful. Most of the tomatoes you find in supermarkets are hydroponics and they're just garbage. Their Brix is usually around 5...

[@rjaquaponics9266]

@@nicolasbertin8552 I played around with a soil bed wear a water table existed under ground and I pumped aquaponic water through the soil bed. I worried the water would return like mud, but it never did. I used a small 8 watt pump to circulate the water. The 4'X5' grow bed produced a lot of food. Hydroponic depends upon the quality of the mixture. You might be able to use a perfect mixture, but without the root exudates, it won't likely be as good as soil grown.

[@nicolasbertin8552]

@@rjaquaponics9266 But the thing is that you do not need to find that "mixture" or whatever. Why bother with hydroponics when you can never do better than nature ? Why bother with pumps and fish and everything else ? You'll never produce better tasting and more nutritious stuff than grown into the grown. It's a very niche market for urban concrete environment. But if we're honest, hydroponics shouldn't exist, it's a huge waste. Farms should grow stuff IN THE GROUND. It's healthier, easier, less expensive if you do it properly like Christine is saying.

[@rjaquaponics9266]

@@nicolasbertin8552You asked Why Bother? I'll tell you why. How much soil or dirt is actually uncontaminated? Every lawn, park, golf course, green space, farm field has been contaminated for decades. How then can you find earth that is uncontaminated? The billions of pounds of "cides" (pesticides, herbicides, and fungicides) don't simply disappear. In addition, farmers fields are sprayed with septic tank waste, cow manure from GMO CAFOs which passthrough numerous antibiotics and growth hormones. The CDC has been monitoring the waste water at treatment plants and found c o v i d as well as every big pharma drug ever made! Glyphosate and 2-4D is used to kill weeds to plant GMO crops as well as harvest most all cereal crops. In alkaline rich soils, paper company industrial waste is dumped on fields to lower the pH. All these heavy metals and toxic chemicals remain in the soil for decades if not forever. Plants are not immune from toxin chemicals in the soil. Some plants are actually used for soil remediation (if there is such a thing). Secondly, weather. It happens and when it does it can destroy crops with hail, floods, or drought. Rain water is polluted with industrial waste from the air and if you believe in chem trails, intentionally so. Nano Aluminum prevents seeds from geminating and only monsatan owns the Patents on seeds that can tolerate such contaminated soils. Perhaps by design! To assume soil grown veg is best or better quality that hydroponic/aquaponic is not looking at the entire picture. You are assuming all soil is clean and healthy. It is not! I have grown aquaponic veg and it still remains the most tastiest veg I have ever eaten. A properly designed aquaponics indoor facility using purified water is immune to weather, able to control pests without harmful toxins, without contaminates or harmful toxins, grows faster and is cleaner for harvest. There are only 90 some elements and all of which can be available in proper portion for the plants in an aquaponics system. Ocean water minus the toxic man-made compounds, Chlorophyll, and Human Blood have the exact same chemical balance of all elements. Any method of growing that eliminates man-made toxic compounds in soil and water is the best method of growing.

[@nicolasbertin8552]

@@rjaquaponics9266 Wow I think you've become completely paranoid. If you watched more of Christine Jones videos, you'd know that all these pesticides, even heavy metals, etc... are not a problem as long as you have a living soil. Bacteria will break down pesticides, especially glyphosate which is a simple molecule to break down for them compared to other pesticides. Heavy metals like copper and lead are not "broken down" obviously, but the excess is trapped in humus by soil life and not made available to plants. That's why if you got a soil polluted with lead, you put a massive amount of wood chips or cover crops, and you wait until your organic matter content goes up. In a few years, those heavy metals aren't mobile anymore and plants can grow again. Soils are incredibly resilient. Throwing the towel and saying "every soil in the world is crap I need to grow soil-less" is 100% the wrong decision. Also growing in living soil will make that soil resilient to floods and droughts. Because it'll be free draining, as opposed to tilled soil. Besides, although not all soils are fit for growing stuff right now, ALL of them have the capacity to be restored. Besides let's be real here, you can't do hundreds of hectares of wheat or corn with hydroponics. That would be massive amounts of plastic and chemicals, it'd be ridiculous.

[@jthepickle7]

So, unless I can unlock that bone meal - I spent $100 on (shipping) I mis-spent my money?

[@tonysu8860]

My personal practice is to dump all soil amendments I want in the final result into my worm bin and let the worms process first. I trust that no matter what I want to add to the soil is better when it's in the form of worm castings.

[@caroline61804]

Biostimulants for seeds? Like EM1?

[@pureprairie1]

And various innocullants.

[@pureprairie1]

Fish, seaweed, molasses or worm castings applied at the time of seeding or transplanting are considered biostimulants.

[@nicolasbertin8552]

@@pureprairie1 agronomists and mycologists usually tell you that it's not really proven that they work... Maybe in really bad soils with less than 1% organic matter, but people like Marc André Selosse keep saying that in normal soils, there's enough life not to bother with all the EM stuff...

[@brunetyannick1174]

All the commercial stuff is most likely not really useful unless you use them in absolutely sterile conditions. What's both better and cheaper is to go to a pristine environment with similar conditions to yours, and find actively decomposing litter/soil mix (i.e natural compost), and then use this as an inoculum to cover your seeds. You can check if that worked by looking at some plants and whether or not they formed this rhizal sheath she's been talking about. You can also build a Johnson-Sue bioreactor (a.k.a the good way to produce compost) but it takes a year. EM1 and the likes are most likely not the most adapted organisms, so they'll just end up getting eaten or getting out-microbed by adapted local organisms anyway ='p.

[@clutzfrmr3645]

I got lost! You said that applied phosphorus was only 1-3% available at best, but later said that since it was was too available, the plants will use it instead of microbially making it themselves. Or is a water soluble phosphorus more available than regular dry phosphorus fertilizer?

[@Forester-qs5mf]

Water soluble phosphorus is only available for a short period of time before it gets locked up in the soil. During the time it is available it can damage plants relationships with soil microbes and makes the plant more dependant on constant applications of soluble P .... which just costs you money.

[@clutzfrmr3645]

@@Forester-qs5mf Thank you!

[@johnlim123]

How do we get more phosphorous out of soil? Plant buckwheat? Or mix organic waste? Chicken waste? Or cow manure?

[@keithberns910]

Biology is the best way to solubilize P out of the soil... Plant diversity is the best way to boost the biology

[@oscar6832]

I love listening to Dr Christine Jones. She's a very good speaker. But the dutch are sooo far ahead. They are growing without soil organisms, in sterile environments, without soil, and they are insanely productive. It's crazy. I wonder what the soil scientists would say about that topic?

[@bbk9787]

So phosphorus is far more valuable than gold and oil but the masses just haven’t figured that out yet? That’s what I’m getting from the phosphorus paradox

[@GetYurMindRite]

Do the following two inputs constitute “water soluble phos:” 1. Phos derived from aerobic fermentation of fruits with cane sugar- and if so, how does this differ from the fermentation that occurs when fruits fall to the ground and spoil (and are then recycled to the rhizosphere via the same extant bacteria & yeasts)? 2. Water Soluble Calcium Phophate derived from mixing fish bone meal with Brown Rice Vinegar to strip the Calcium into a bicarbonate?

[@GetYurMindRite]

WSPhos water soluble calcium phosphate?

[@RubberDuckStyle]

👍👍👍👍👍👊

[@soilprepper2602]

We call it pot ash here in TN. It's ash from a pot. Potash.

[@feralfpv3768]

She was perfectly clear the first time.

[@simonmasters3295]

Don't draw attention to the fact...some recipients of the message did not get it

[@user-cs8fn5zt6q]

1

[@jimgaston9863]

10% sour milk and 90% water is a great natural fungicide

[@joseluizm.garcia998]

I have always said that. There is lots of instance in which anaerobic is OK. Someone should tell that to Elaine Ingham. She doesn't know and insist on her maniqueist theory. I make beautiful Bokashi smelling sweet in a anaerobic atmosphere.

[@rorkgoose6114]

Most pathogens are anaerobic. Most microorganisms that benefit plants are aerobic. Only a few anaerobes, like N fixing bacteria, are beneficial to plants, and the N fixing bacteria only need anaerobic conditions when actually fixing N. As far as Bokashi and the like, that's a very different thing from soil. Ingham is right, you just need to understand the context she's speaking from. She's wrong about a few other things, however, like vegetables needing a 0.7:1 FB ratio and pastures 1:1, where she seems adamant about those numbers, refusing to accept that slightly higher FB ratios give even better results and build soil faster (note all the weeds and bare ground in her garden).

[@michaelhudson4171]

I've been doing organic regenerative agroforestry for over 20 years. In the feild. In the tropics. The idea that the plant is dependant on a holobiant based on a microbiome that will be passed down to future generations, and treated seeds will keep future generations from developing a healthy microbiome is completely absurd. For someone with such a deep and holistic view, it should be obvious that microbes exist in healthy soil. Neither the mother plant of the seed, nor the seed itself, define the microbiome of the offspring. The environment does. We do not live in a petre dish. (Most of us). Anyone who has a family member who moved abroad, say, to a 3rd world country where life is not sterile, they will entirely change their own microbiome. If the soil is not sterile, the plant will acquire it's biome from that. Plus, you know... Worm castings, cricket crap, bird droppings, leaf litter, WIND full of spores etc, and whatever else finds it way there. But it's a great lecture overall, based on great research. Thank you!

[@keithberns910]

Valid points but think of the "on-board" biology on the seed as the colostrum that new born babies, calves etc... get. It get them off to a much quicker and healthier start - and with annuals that might only have 80-100 days of growth, a fast start is very important!

[@n95girl]

CHRISTINE - Answer is - too many sugars in your system. Need to change the microbiome of your gut and that will start to slow down the cramps in the legs. Yes magnesium, potassium etc is needed but sugars of any kind, complex like potatoes or simple like a piece of fruit will cause problems and put all hormones out of wack and start robbing your health .