THE POINT OF DIMINISHING RETURNS, is it real?

[@wprimrose]

I spent an hour talking to Herb a few months ago, some of the best money I’ve ever spent. Seriously, the man is an incredible font of knowledge.

[@gunsnwankers1]

How much did he charge? Steve charges on his Patreon $50 for 15 minutes. That comes out to $200 an hour.

[@wprimrose]

@@gunsnwankers1 probably best to confirm with Herb what he’s asking now but it’s in line with what Steve asks.

[@veniceog]

As a bicycle mechanic, my going rate is 125/hour. Its less than the first hour for a plumber. 200/hour, aint so bad coz no one is ever gonna book them for a day, and they will likely never have days fully booked. Seems like a rate that will keep demand in control.

[@gunsnwankers1]

@@veniceog I don’t want to state any opinion on whether the going rate is good or bad. If you think it’s a fair rate more power to you.

[@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac]

Hmmmm, Wprimrose ACTUALLY spent the money and thoroughly enjoyed his time with Herb! It’s kind of weird that you other guys are babbling about whether or not it’s worth it. Sure, if you don’t want to spend the money that’s cool, in life each of us has to decide what’s worth the cost, but to talk about what other people do with their money is ridiculous. Mind your own freaking business.

[@VIVAFPV]

the best investment into your audio equipment is edibles. you can literally can hear what you never hear before

[@Terry12345]

Somebody had to say it. You are my hero.

[@crimsonghost6454]

I have to agree.

[@V1ralB1ack]

You sir speak the truth. An edible will make a budget system sound like angels cumming in your ear.

[@juanmillaruelo7647]

Delicious meals, good company raises your serotonin levels so much that the listening session becomes memorable. ;-)

[@andrewweis5857]

The great thing about your channel is watching how much you enjoy doing it.

[@Phil_f8andbethere]

You make a great point about the diminishing returns isn't necessarily a constant. However, I have always understood diminishing returns as the amount of money in % terms you spend extra for a % gain in audio quality. So, if today I spend and extra 100% on a component (double the price of the existing component I already own), If I get a 20% improvement in quality then it is probably worth it. However, if I then after a few more years wanted to upgrade the same component and I wanted another 20% improvement in audio quality, I will then have to spend potentially 200-300% or more. And that's where the diminishing returns is real - a much bigger outlay for an ever decreasing increase in audio quality.

[@matthewbarrow3727]

What is the point of diminishing returns of an audiophile system for a deaf person? How can you tell a difference of 10% in sound quality? It is really based on what you can hear and what you are willing to spend. When making upgrades, I have tended to go the dramatic route. If I can't hear a difference I won't spend any money on an upgrade. If the difference is very noticeable, I may just spend what I can afford at the time and be happy with that. When you do critical listening to a demo and then go home to listen to your existing system, do you miss the sound of the demo? If you can't tell the difference, there is no point doing the upgrade at that time. Instead of spending the money, save it up so that if you do run into that situation later on, you can afford it. The ability to pay for a system is also important, as is one's priorities. If you feel that spending $3000 to fly for a 1 week vacation to a different country is more worth it for the memories it creates, do that instead. If you can only afford $1000 for a system, you only look within that range. If you can afford $100,000 for a system, then your criteria is very different. 20 years ago, I had a system which was about $12,000 and I thought that it was the best in the world, to my ears. A couple of years ago, I ended up with a system which was $30,000, and I felt that it was in a totally different class. The way the system interacted with the room was totally different and I felt a totally different level of immersion. I then thought that that was the best in the world, to my ears. There were more expensive systems but I didn't bother listening to them because I could not afford them, so just made the "diminishing point of returns" statement to myself to make myself feel good about my purchase. A couple of months ago, I listened to a system which was the big brother of the one I bought a couple of years ago. What was good was that the manufacturer was willing to take the old system back as trade-in at original purchase price. Along with a discount, the cost was still eye watering but something that was a possibility, given where I am in life. I got back home and really missed what I heard from the demo, even a week later. What I heard in that system was something I had never experienced before. I therefore ordered the upgrade, which has a 3 month manufacturing lead time. I am really looking forward to finally having it installed next month. As the video stated, diminishing returns isn't really applicable. It is really more of a rationalization to make one feel good about one's purchase. Yes. The costs of systems can get very large. However, you don't really look at it from the 20% increase in sound quality point of view. You look at it in terms of how the system makes you feel, and if the cost is worth it to you personally.

[@jeremiahchamberlin4499]

@@matthewbarrow3727 Very well said. Your point reminds me of the advice often given about purchasing a computer system years ago, “Buy the best one you can afford.” Of course, the reason we listen to all these reviewers, or visit audio stores when we can, is to get an idea of what’s out there, of what is obtainable if I dig deeper, save longer, etc. Anyway, very good discussion in the original video, and your comment helped move the conversation along for me.

[@antigen4]

well .... here, apparently, it means pimping out your associate for $$$. disgraceful!

[@matthewbarrow3727]

@@jeremiahchamberlin4499 It is my sense that people don't really understand the concept of sound quality. It is dependent on the personal experience of different aspects of it. A person hears music which has high distortion but the distortion is of even harmonics, which reinforces the primary waveform, so seems to sound better. A person hears odd harmonic distortions and it doesn't sound good. Both distortions are different from the source material, but one seems to have a better sound quality to the other or even the source itself. This is probably why some people like tube amps, due to the way they distort. As the price gets higher, the nature of the sound of tube and solid state is said to become closer together as there is less distortion. The way we experience the sound coming from speakers and the room is a very large aspect. People don't just hear with their ears. I was chatting with the speaker designer (for the speakers I have) and he mentioned that people have 3 ears, with the third being the sinus cavity. If you have a cold and your sinus cavity is blocked, you won't have the same experience when listening to music. Sound quality has the aspect of pressure waves hitting your body. When we hear sound, we are really experiencing a vector field of sound, with sound coming from the speakers as well as the reflections of sound from the room walls also hitting us. How a system interacts with a room is therefore very important. The route I went was with a system which uses DSP to cancel out the first wall reflections from the speakers in the time domain. This removes smearing in the sound itself. If you are a musician who does mixing, you probably understand the concept of reverb and delay. If the sound reflection is within 30 milliseconds, it's controlled as reverb (perceived sound of room size) rather than echo. While a musician uses consistent time delay, a room generates inconsistent time delay, which causes uncontrolled smearing and changing the make up of the music itself. The system I am upgrading to goes one step further, where it has speakers which are directed at the walls (back, front, ceiling) to try to send sound waves that reflect off the walls and arrive at the listener in a coherent manner to the primary sound that comes directly from the speakers. ie. It tries to recreate the reverberent field in the recoding. The goal here is to recreate the experience from the recording itself and makes use of the listening room to do so. This interaction of sound has some very interesting and unexpected consequences. It can change the texture of the sound itself. When listening to a track by Sting, it felt like there was sound in the shape and texture of mist which surrounded the singer at chest height. What we hear and feel (from the sound pressure waves hitting us) causes our brain to extract associations in our memory and experience, which creates unexpected sensations. In case you were interested, the system I have is a custom fully 3-way-active set of Legacy Audio Aeris with Legacy Audio Wavelet pre-amp (with room-correction/speaker adaptation). I will be upgrading to the Legacy Audio Valors. For me, the goal is the full experience, not just what I hear with my ears. If all I cared about was what my ears hear, I would likely go down the headphone route. Enjoy your progression in this hobby. It can be fun, but it can also be very expensive.

[@jeremiahchamberlin4499]

@@matthewbarrow3727 Do you consider your audio system an expense, or an investment? The way you talk about your immersive experience, you getting a reuturn which enhances your quality of life. I’m still working on getting my first serious system together. I listen to my system, I listen to other’s, and I critically assess where my weakest link lies. Right now I working simultaneously on both the input and output side. On the input, trying to get the best I can from my current turntable; on the output, trying to match an amp with speakers. I have a collection of vintage speakers that seemed a bit dull and lifeless, but moving them around made a dramatic difference, and a new tube amp has really perked them up. I’m in for a lot of experimentation to figure out what I can get from my current setup before I begin another critical assessment. It sounds to me as though you have gone where your ears have lead you, and that seems a good path to me.

[@paulm944]

This was just great--thank you so much Steve and Herb. I could watch one of these on a weekly basis. I do not think you two would ever run out of interesting things to talk about. This is a stretch, but for those of you that are sports fans this reminds my of the show PTI on espn. Just great stuff--thank you both.

[@mikeday62]

These two still have amazing enthusiasm after so many years involved in audio.

[@brianlewis5042]

You guys have such great synergy. I love watching and hearing videos when you and Herb get together and discuss a topic. Thanks Steve and Herb.

[@archangele1]

Push Pull pentodes came in during the 50's and for large amps in the 40's. One of the earliest stereo amps, The 3D Binaural by Bell was an amp that uses push pull 6V6's and at one time I had one of them and they sound amazing. Companies like Marantz, HH Scott, Dynaco and Fisher all adopted push pull pentodes. Most common were the 6L6, EL34 and 6550. By the 50's SET amps were actually very rare. Even back to the 20's and 30's you used to see most radios and theater amps that, although they used triodes they were push pull.

[@carlsalazar4490]

I had the opportunity to strike up a friendship with someone who was the owner of a high end audio store. He would let me listen music on systems that were about 100 thousand dollars. The experience was beyond words. I could hear so much detail in music. I couldn’t afford that kind of system, but he did help me put together a system that sounded amazing. It’s sad to say those kinds of stores just don’t really exist anymore.

[@antigen4]

been there done that actually too! except it was 1979 and i was 14 years old!

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

Debated today with someone who claimed $300 amps are perfect.

[@fletchermunson6225]

Here is a ponderable. I have noticed that I memorize or get familiar with how my system sounds and no matter how good, I get the itch to change and "improve" it. Sometimes that ends in disaster.

[@andrewm1894]

You also get familiar with your music and start to listen for more. New music often sounds better at first

[@ogsan1296]

2 ICONS... I love when you two do videos together. So informative and truly organic.

[@billfife6569]

That was just a lot of fun. To be able to hang out with you guys and a few other of my favorite reviewers ... I can only imagine.

[@rickmathis8590]

I never tire of hearing Herb. Just brilliant! Thanks, Steve!

[@brodelicious]

Steve’s statement “the similarities are bigger than the differences” is exactly what a lot people mean when they talk about diminishing returns. What I like about the hobby that’s different from a lot of obsessive hobbies is that I don’t feel like there’s as much gatekeeping by the folks that can afford the ultra high end stuff and the people who make the most out of what they have. Music tends to be the great equalizer because if you can rock with what you got the guy who has “better” gear can appreciate that (at least that’s my experience).

[@miguelbarrio]

I’ve listened to uber expensive and affordable high end and what I would say is that in many cases the difference is in magnitude but the character is the same. Specifically, I spent a fair amount of time comparing two systems: one costing $6K and one costing $170K (that’s for amp and speakers only in both cases). My conclusion is that the $6K system delivered much of what the $170K system delivered - in character. The scale of the more expensive system was bigger - you had more of the same in a way with some more nuance and more scale - but the character, the ability to connect to the music, the presentation, were in a similar vein. The cheaper system was like a younger brother of the bigger one.

[@Hi-FiBBQ]

@@miguelbarrio Just curious. Would you say the $170k system was 28 times better than the $6k system?

[@miguelbarrio]

@@Hi-FiBBQ That’s the thing: it is not a 1-dimensional problem and so quantifying it by a number like that is not reasonable. What I will tell you is I could not have the $170K system in a medium sized room for example, and in such a room the $6K might be 2x better… :) In my room (24ftx36ft) did I get more of the bigger system? Yes. How much more? Errrr… Like I said, it’s not a number. Is a $80K car 2x better than a $40K car? The question doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t either in this realm.

[@miguelbarrio]

@@keplermission4947 Two questions here: Does substantially more money get you a better system? The answer is: yes, if chosen carefully. The second question is: What does “better” mean? This is where it depends on many factors. To me, the most important factor is connection to the music - and there are many affordable systems that will give you that.

[@brodelicious]

@@keplermission4947 I’m not sure that your metaphysical argument is coherent. Or at least it’s disingenuous. People will pay more money for the “thing they’re into” and not care. And turn around and just buy commodity level for other stuff. You see people with Steinway grand pianos in their home when no one within a 5 mile radius could play it because it’s a statement piece. It has nothing to with how it performs or how it sounds when it is played. And the only one who gets to enjoy it is the musician the homeowner hires for their annual holiday party. I can tell you for certain that I have heard far better out of Rythmik and JTR subs for both visceral and “controlled” or “musical” bass than the stacks of RELs at the brick and mortar high end audio store 10 minutes away from me.

[@Musicman369]

To start with I have the Klipsch rp 280 for the last 5yrs now, I get what your saying. The more I increase the volume seems to my ears that it sound more real revealing, more natural sounding. Good subject. It's all personal to decide what is diminishing returns to You. Thxs

[@perfectstack-music]

Great vid! I agree with your final comment about being happy with what you have, while I'm happy with where I am, I still enjoy learning about the latest and greatest in the hobby :)

[@jeremyr722]

Herb made an excellent point when comparing the RP-600 to your Cornwalls. I think he’s spot on there.

[@markhusbands6132]

It is still a great endorsement of the RP-600. The Cornwall is a large speaker so will deliver a greater size of sound due to stronger lower midrange and midbass energy...which is a small vs large speaker thing.

[@rabit818]

Love the new graphic. The law of diminishing returns should be a continuing series with audio pros, musicians, and regular schmoes like me

[@vbros7]

I could listen to you guys gab all day long... Thanks for this.

[@jimcoope7194]

Instead of "Intensity," I prefer the term "Lucidity." I can listen to a trumpet recording on a multi-kilobuck system that sounds magnificent! But even if someone is playing a real trumpet in the next room, I know instantly it's a real live instrument. No limiting, no compression, unlimited harmonics, etc. There's a real purity to the sound coming out of that trumpet! Good video Guys!

[@Justwantahover]

Normal speakers just don't cut it in my opinion. It is interesting that you mentioned the real trumpet. I make speakers and with about the best recent amp @ $1,600. I am running 5" FR drivers in oversized boxes with a 1 cm gap between the box and the driver (with longer screws and spacers on the driver). You will have to tweak the gap (1/2" on the bottom screws and 1cm on the top screws as a guide) and use thin flexi hose as spacers that you can squeeze to tweak the gap. BUT...with the driver 1 cm above the hole it isn't going to sound any good (too "bonky")! So I have a 1.5" deep plastic tubing bass tube on the driver hole to stop the "bonk" and act as a very effective bass vent. A point source bass vent. And with the combination of point source sound, the acoustic gap and a great amp, these speakers nearly sound live. Way different to normal driver mounting in a more spacial way. With 2-ways the texture and tone come from different sources some inches apart. This forms a triangle with the ear and you can tell where the disjointed sound is coming from (with trigonometry, sort of). But with single drivers you just get a line instead of a triangle and so it's harder to tell where the sound is coming from. This alone will give you WAY more of an illusion of a real trumpet. But that is not enough. Plus the sound from the back of the driver escapes through the gap and that makes the sound different to normal mounting (in a good way). They sound like panel speakers but without the 6 ft mouth and light years cheaper. Mine absolutely smoke my B&W 706s (my reference speakers). It's not a frequency thing, it's an acoustic thing, more spacial "tuby" sound. The Audiolab 6000 amp is a good FR match cos the treble is nice and soft (not fatiguing) but reliably extended way up. But not "wiry" like some class D amps. FR drivers tend to be loud in the "chiff" but lack the very top a bit. Opposite to the amp. Anyway I sometimes get startled by a voice in my room when there is nobody else in the room. Once I heard a jet aircraft overhead at low altitude and looked out the window, but nothing. It was an add on KZbin. Do it, make some, you won't believe your ears.

[@jimcoope7194]

@@Justwantahover I've heard a number of FR drivers over the years and you're right they do some interesting things! But most of it is around the midrange and not the extremes. They mostly sound "Band Limited" to me. I love classical and jazz, so I really enjoy the fullness of the lower mids and upper bass. Right now, I'm using all tubed electronics with the Elac Uni-Fis and two fast little subs. Those speakers do a fantastic job of imaging in my room with layers of depth. I have a Lt. Kije recording that sounds like it extends out into the yard! Ha! What 5" FR driver are you using?

[@RennieAsh]

@@Justwantahover Jamo made a concentric bass vent speaker. Also I've gotten the same effects you describe by playing around with a megaphone pa speaker. I mean I'm sure the brass instruments sound great on that because it's shaped similar to the mouth of a trumpet/sax/trombone

[@mclaren16v]

You need to have Herb on more! All of your best interviews come with him on.

[@simonzinc-trumpetharris852]

Yup. Deffo need more herb!

[@jasonhoffer9017]

Another great video! Couple of comments - no, you did not convince me that law of diminishing returns does not exist (I still believe it very much does). Secondly, I am happy with my system and am not always on the search for the next great thing - that isn't why I watch you or read audiophile magazines. I watch because I find you and Herb entertaining and like to know what is available and what you think of a particular piece of equipment. If I did have a request, I would like to know your and Herb's opinion on, what systems you would set up or put together at different price points from the used market and your reasoning behind it. Thanks again

[@laurelhardy4064]

I've always thought pure class A meant that the amp will stay at class A regardless of how much power it delivers, because some amps they can only do quarter class A anything after that is class A-B, that's my understanding, but of course there's a good chance that I'm wrong.

[@shreyanshyadav3285]

You are correct 👌

[@jeremiahchamberlin4499]

@@keplermission4947 It’s not fair to post in Hebrew what Google can’t translate. 🙂

[@jeremiahchamberlin4499]

Steve might have been having some fun with his ‘pure’ question. There are others on You Tube who explain Class A mode quite clearly as a matter of biasing either the triode tube or the Bi-Polar Junction Transistor (BJT). The Tube/Transistor is set at the midpoint with a constant current running through it, the signal then modulates the main power supply, thus amplifying it in the process. The trouble is that, while high fidelity (faithful to the source) is maintained, gain is limited. If two tubes/transistors are used in combination, the effective gain is doubled. Two challenges must be met to make this arrangement work. (1) The two tubes/transistors must be matched, and (2) Distortion is to some extent unavoidable as the signal ‘crosses over’ from one to the other in the pair. Engineers compete to find the best solution to these perennial problems. The Class A A/B stays in Class A mode until more gain is requested and then shifts into the Class A/B mode. At least that is how I u derstans the issue as it has been explained to me. I haven’t had the pleasure of building amplifiers myself, but I’m looking forward to it. 🙂

[@brankocernik8384]

Class A amps runs as a class A amp . When people refer to pure class A they refer to the class A/B amp running in class A before it runs A/B .

[@blairholmesproductionsinc.9432]

One of my faves to date. You two are terrific- informative and funny. Great show!

[@ronsowers1763]

Man, that was so cool. You guys play off of each other so well. More of this please.

[@aitchr8770]

You and Herb kicking back on Audio subjects is just the best tonic for the lost audiophiliacs soul.

[@misterweb111]

Great perspectives and insights as always with you two! Great stuff. Love the chemistry.

[@everyman6328]

I absolutely loved this conversation. Made my evening.

[@darrellchitwood9167]

I always enjoy your conversations with Herb. The viewer system was chock full of goodies

[@markscott7583]

Love the synergy between you guys. These are great videos.

[@m6j159]

Thanks for this Steve. What a truly lovely guy Herb is. I can imagine people feeling that a chat with Herb was money very well spent. A true gentleman. Thanks, Steve👍

[@mcknyc6401]

Spoken like a true salesman.

[@yessum44]

This was my thought. These guys have a huge incentive to convince people that they never have enough, that they can always buy something new and better.

[@Thunderbird139]

Cynics.

[@garysmith8455]

Love it when you and Herb get together (O: I believe that the references made to PURE class A, simply means that there is NO class B involved in the design. Well, that is what I get out of it. Much like calling an electric car, an all electric and NOT a hybrid.

[@rickp6731]

The point of diminishing returns is... All New Audio Consulting Rubanoide 3-Way Speakers with top of the line Audio Consulting Gear.. Not CHEAP !

[@meshplates]

Thanks Steve for featuring 👍 3rd time lucky!!

[@brianbonham2261]

One of the best down to earth discussions on just the art of listening...excellent excellent discussion on the topic

[@ericr385]

Loved this dialog. Just yesterday I moved my Dynaudio Heritage Specials 1cm out and 1cm forward. I noticed that I heard the positive effect from across the house. That observation convinced me that your hifi needs to be set up to play the room/house, not just aimed at your head. You need to hear the "matrix" first, then you can hear it from anywhere. Very cool.

[@jimgroce9487]

This was lots of fun to watch, do more of these please.

[@ianmedium]

Herb hit the nail on the head for me when he mentioned density of sound. After decades of listening to various systems the ones that for me do it right are the ones who offer that density of sound as when I listen to live music be it at the Musikverein here in Vienna or in the private concerts of ancient music hosted in a 15th century palace in a small arched ceiling room with simple ancient instruments what I hear is a density in the music which really involves me. The only two things in all those decades that have replicated that well for me that I have heard were both at the Bristol HiFi show in England in the 1990´s. One was the top of the range full Naim system including their huge top of the range speakers and with Sennheisers Orpheous tube headphone system. Two very different ways of reproducing music but both shared that density and I am not even a huge fan of both brands but to this day those experiences remain in my head as the benchmarks. I have nothing to qualify this but my gut tells me OMA would offer that same density of sound.

[@NeilBlanchard]

What you gentleman discussed is interesting and valid. The hard part of the discussion - is that the price of anything is set for all sorts of reasons, and only some of them are "proof" that that thing sounds better, than something determined by someone else - to be some other price.

[@leonkruk8003]

I loved this. Like bumping into two old friends at a record shop in the Village, and going for coffee, to talk about audio.

[@davidschatzle4064]

I really enjoyed this one more than usual. It inspired me to to complete a project - that’s been languishing. I finished up a restoration of Rek-O-kut turntable with a George Nelson designed ‘baseball bat’ tonearm and installed a newly rebuilt Decca Grey - which I’ve been eager to find a good fit for. Well I struck it rich the match must’ve been made in heaven. The dynamics - attack is astonishing with the SET amp and open baffle Lowthers an example of geometric expansion returns. Keith moon & Buddy Rich are dueling right here.

[@CP-oe3kt]

So happy that you two didn't start talking more about gear on this video. You and Herb together have cost me a lot of money over the past few years 😀 My favourite two points made on this video: 1. The ""Point of Diminishing Returns" is floating. (Steve Guttenberg - Nov 12, 2021). That is the perfect way to word it. 2. If the difference you hear between two pieces of equipment is subtle, then it's not real. (Herb Reichert - Nov 12, 2021) Thank you for the excellent videos Steve. I look forward to them each week.

[@arthurhaywood2184]

I'm now considered to be an "old guy". Not quite as old as Steve & Herb, but close! Still, listening to two old, former salesmen talk about diminishing returns without ever defining what it actually is wants to make me hammer nails into my ears! I actually had a flashback to the 80's & 90's when high end audio stores thrived here in NYC & you had to educate youself so that you could navigate through the bs that a lot of salesmen would try to feed you!

[@john26262]

Thank you for the video. I'm very excited today because I finally broke down and bought a pair of Klipsch Heresy 4's. I can't wait for them to be delivered.

[@williamsharp5973]

It's always a joy listening and watching the two of you having such a good time! :)

[@OldTooly]

I have finally reached that point and am happy with my system. Yes it's a complex system and easily reconfigured for modifying the sound to my taste of the moment. My main concern now is to keep the equipment in proper working order as some pieces are over 50 years old, and the tube stuff is a never ending battle when your dealing this long term. This doesn't mean that I don't experiment. For example, I have always preferred a horn based speaker system, but have recently started listening to speakers using tweeters for high end. So I am comparing difference between various cone materials. So far I have not perceived any earth shattering differences but perhaps my newest acquisition with beryllium cones will knock my socks off. My point is that the audio/ hobby/lifestyle is more than just the music. It can also be the desire to experiment with various devices and make personal discoveries which we find pleasing to our ears and mental perceptions. As far as diminishing returns, if you think it sounds better, and you can afford it, then go for it. Others may very well not feel the same way but I find very little else in my life more satisfying than listening to music that sounds how I like it. And the icing on the cake is sharing it with someone else who feels the same way.

[@meshplates]

Great discussion. The overwhelming superiority of a real piano vs high end system shows that the fidelity gap remains insuperable. Impure class a is class a/b which is class a at very low power output.

[@manuzach]

You guys are hilarious together…make more of this ! I was thinking Of getting a cd transport the other day and was thinking about returns too !

[@lokerola]

Fun video today! Man, that system at the end is KILLER.

[@AudioGuyBrian]

I really loved this episode. Great topics and great guest. Thanks.

[@cruzgallegos5071]

I can honestly say: taking a home theater receiver, switching to pre amp mode only, adding external amplification modules, makes a world of difference in sound. Yes it’s only rca and not xlr, but the difference in sound using the receiver built in amplifiers vs. adding external amplifiers is a night and day difference. In this case, the return is huge!

[@dougg1075]

Y’all’s chemistry is kinda like me and my brother after being around each other a day too long:) It’s funny

[@spirosk7984]

Have seen this video so many times .....contains so logical and simple sequence of quotations that everything makes absolute sense at least in my mind. Thank you both you are amazing

[@adrrda6091]

The thing about diminishing returns might apply to how, in every field, as you go higher, the effort involves rises increasingly steeply and the number of people who can go a little higher diminishes very quickly. This applies to the level of scientists, to climbing tall mountains, to sportsmen. It seems to apply to everything, including audio.

[@jazzmetalaudiophile]

Awesome conversation, and what a spectacular viewer system

[@gaborozorai3714]

You guys touched on an important point: the greatest value of a good system is being able to play ANY record and enjoy it. The more varied your musical taste and record collection, the better the system that you "need", the more far out your point of diminishing returns is.

[@juanmillaruelo7647]

Herb, in 1960 it made a lot of sense to buy "reasonable" push-pull "high power" amps for reasonable money (two 60 W Dynaco MK3) coupled with excellent sounding speakers (KLH, AR). Hundreds of Dual turntables were sold for each Thorens unit. Diminishing returns at work. And High Fidelity and Stereo Review focused on the "real world" and the broader budget ranges. It made sense.

[@stevemqn4053]

I recently bought a Marantz SR7500 for $60 at Goodwill. I have a Schitt modi3+ DAC for $119, some Sony Sscs5 speakers for $88, and a tube buffer preamp for $70 with upgraded Riverstone tubes. My. CD collection sounds closer to vinyl, and is a completely different experience now. Thank God the stick up my butt for audio only goes so far. Cause I'm thoroughly happy. There has to come a time when you realize there's a line between audiophile/hobbyist, and obsession. IMO

[@adamk4716]

Two 70+ year olds who can’t possibly hear above 8000 kHz. But I still love them! :)

[@mattb9664]

The recording capture quality and recording mastering is still more important than the equipment that is reproducing it. If you are 'only' going to be listening to for example an Adele studio recordings through a very expensive system, you're probably going to be somewhat disappointed in that expensive system since the voice capture (for some reason) is really bad on that recording. S's, sh's and ch's (yes I'm referring to Easy on Me) vocal sounds for some reason all sound like static, so it'll be really really bad and obvious the pick out quickly on an expensive system. You may even think there is something wrong with your system! If that's all the listener wants to listen to, then what's the point of buying an expensive system?

[@vinylrules4838]

And the room you are listening in is more important than the playback equipment. A good room and inexpensive gear can sound fabulous. Crappy room and expensive gear sounds crappy.

[@markceci9896]

I totally agree with both you and Vinyl Rules. The recording and the room/speaker/listening position are at the top. The biggest problem with the esoteric systems is that they force a person to listen to obscure, audiophile quality recordings for the purpose of gear evaluation. I like lots of music from the 60s 70s and 80s. Most of it was not recorded very well. No reason for me to invest more than about 6K on a complete system. There is a MASSIVE law of diminishing returns. Placebo effect and snake oil rule the day in audio.

[@markhusbands6132]

Excellent discussion with Herb. That concept of comparing a real instrument's sound with a good system is always intriguing as it seems more to be the quality of the recording than the fault of great system. I like your take on the Klipsch RP600M since you own the Cornwall IV...which is fantastic. So clearly the smaller Klipsch delivers well to impress you two. Sometimes small speakers can produce some musical magic. Keep up the good work.

[@Extremesam43]

Great video guys. Audiophiles in stereo!! I am in the camp of diminishing returns. The way I would describe it is that at the higher end you'll pay a lot more to get .0001 less harmonic distortion and maybe 1db more channel separation which to me is fine if it means that much to you. Where I draw the line is as in my case, a $5,000 system that just sounds incredible, am totally happy with it and have no desire to take out a second mortgage for something that would make it marginally better. It goes back to putting the music 1st.

[@RennieAsh]

They're not even marginally better sometimes - you are paying for exotic manufacturing or art pieces, curated sound signatures etc. Which is fine if you have the money. Afterall I don't necessarily want an ugly speaker even if it did sound good (I'd accept it but wish it looked better lol)

[@michaelwehner1738]

Great conversation. Herbs a National treasure. And, like me, from Wisconsin. My home system is a pair of wharfedale Diamond 10.2 and matching wharfedale sub. Powered by a Harman/Kardon 3380. I use a U-Turn custom turntable. Where I change gear is with my basses, amps, and studio equipment. But I always play pre-release music on the home system.

[@lotusholder]

I liked what Herb said about the 'matrix' of the sound coming from the next room. I have a high-end system, listen to it while in my living room where it's located, and in the kitchen (adjoining room). It's obviously better in the living room, but still sounds amazing most of the time from my kitchen, which classic audio/reviewing dogma says should not be the case so far outside the sweet spot- but having owned different systems over the years, my current one still sounds better than the rest, even in my kitchen. Same with dedicated vs. background listening. When I do background listening while, say, doing paperwork, I still have a much better music experience at those periodic moments I'm more tuned in, than if I had a more basic system playing in the background. Just my personal experience.

[@Terry12345]

Steve, what you said at 19.00 sums it up perfectly. Diminishing returns is a personal thing. Budget and interest are different for everyone.

[@josemanrico8544]

You guys are hilarious in a happy and fun and having a good time kind of way!

[@tigertiger1699]

Cheers guys🙏🙏 really helpful vid and point..

[@knowname23]

You guys are hilarious! What a great show tonight!

[@gdwlaw5549]

I love my Klipsch RP-600M with REL subwoofer ! I was done and then picked up a load of vintage equipment last weekend :-)

[@akia123]

That's why we have more then one room. Bedroom upgrades :)

[@philippebertrand3820]

Steve and Herb, the best duet of the world ! I’m your biggest fan.

[@jetfansuperd]

I want to hear Cheap Audio Man with Herb

[@mrfrosty3]

The idea of diminishing returns in audio gear is a tactful way of saying 'dont worry if you can't afford it'

[@peterlarkin762]

It's pure class A as opposed to class AA, à la Technics etc. Class AA is AB except a higher quiescent current is applied, thus making crossover distortion almost nil, until higher volumes are reached and it starts needed more current. Pure class A means max current applied to output transistors, all the time.

[@HouseofRecordsTacoma]

Herb brings up 1960's and 1990's in the same 25 minute piece, I like it.

[@scottengh1175]

Man, I had a technician refurbish my 1978 turntable. I almost had to twist his arm to install a $100 cartridge vs $80. I wish I had twisted to $200. He figured since I am 64 that I couldn't hear the difference.

[@liamstrain]

Are $350,000 Wilson WAMM's 10X better than $35,000 Magico S5s? No. Certainly the returns diminish. That doesn't mean you don't still get improvements, but they become much more incremental, rather than transformational. I do think there are brackets. Going from low end, to mid, to high - but within the brackets? much less so - and price is rarely the best indicator.

[@keithwood4031]

In a way I'm guilty of chasing watts, but not in the way described here. I bought my first 'system' back in the 1970's when I was a teenager with little money and even today I look for what I consider the best sound quality for what I can afford.

[@markusschulzbro]

I’m a simple man, I see Herb - I press like!

[@oohtob6685]

Ive been chasing better sound for 40 years. And im happy to do so. Looking forward to my next purchase. A new dac i think.

[@JingoLoBa57]

The power and clarity of my latest horn speakers are easy to distinguish same with the Luxman M900u, end of the line system. And yes the end of a long journey over years of exposure to many systems.

[@ricardolopez4166]

Great, always great !!! Thank you guys! 👏👏👏🤗

[@andrewgillis8572]

Absolutely! At the door you step in through the room loading - if there is any. And to stand at the door outside Herb's old system it sounded like the Stones were playing, inside! This must be something the Zu or the Klipsch or those corner position ones from Munich that look like Boston Acoustic A 100s - can't remember the designer

[@cnhhnc]

No it's not real. One million dollar turntables that can survive the atmosphere of Jupiter are the ultimate in Extraterrestrial Audio. Forget about Hi End, go ET! lol! Sorry boys. I have a pretty darn good EAR. A musical ear, one that can play by ear with no music, etc. And I've heard some REALLY HI END gear. I do NOT always hear the vast improvements claimed by people whose ears are usually much worse than mine? Some audiophiles who need hearing aids rave about their super expensive systems? What are they hearing? When they can barely distinguish my voice from the background noise in a restaurant? Perhaps it is the comfort of their rather large wallet, lol! You want to hear a real piano? Buy a concert ticket, it's a lot cheaper, lol! Even better, buy a Grand Piano and learn to PLAY at home! Still cheaper!

[@brandonburr4900]

Hank you herb and Steve! Always a treat! Herb you need a t shirt and merchandise as welll😀

[@MarxxxxExpo69]

This kicks butt. In a nice way. Cheers for spankin'!

[@tallpaull9367]

everyone knows that at $10,000,000 the law of diminishing returns kicks in.

[@Chiroman527]

The Steve and Herb Audiophile Show, should be a weekly or minimally a Bi-Weekly show. I'm Old too, 70, and really enjoy the Stories and the knowledge espoused here. I'm certainly not a Audiophile per it's general meaning, however, I am probably a little OCD for obtaining a Good Sound. I find in my experience, after going thru a "period" of OCD over the creation of my new Finished Basement Sound "Studio" created during teh COVID Hibernation. I purchased lower middle end equipment to play My Music while I play my resurrected Hobby of playing Drums after a 50 Year Hiatus. W/O going through the litiny of the equipment, which included 1 new IOTA Preamp. 1 new IOTA Amp, 1 new Emotiva A300 amp, new Denon DRA-800H A/V receiver (but have not hooked it up to any Video), 4 pairs of Different Bookshelf Speakers , new Tascam CD / Player / Recorder , a new Tascam Double cassette Recorder /player. When all the equipment is playing simultaneously ( 2 pairs of speakers to the front and 2 pair at the rear, It sounds like a concert Hall. In My LR, since 1987, a NAD 1300 preamp, a NAD 2600 Amp, Dual CS5000 TT, Onkyo CD player, connected to a pair of KEF 104/2s without any SWs or Equalizers. Sounds great to this day.

[@donpettit7107]

I think I would use the word dimensionality. Take a live instrument, transfer/capture some of that all enveloping sound information from a 3-D space into a few well placed microphones and it is like watching a play live versus reading the script.

[@tonykazz2779]

Steve G & Mr.HR are like the Julia Child Book on mastering French Cooking that I have on my reading table : insightful philosophical reveals, one after another.

[@miguelbarrio]

I have been thinking about your piano example… I think density is a great word. When I think about the issues, I think part of the problem is the ability of systems to play the loud AND much more quiet harmonics AT THE SAME TIME. A piano has a tremendous dynamic range in the set of harmonics it produces, and any non-linearity in the capture, processing, and reproduction will mean that playing a loud signals affects the playback of the quieter signals trying to be played at the same time. Playing that quiet signal alone is possible.

[@veniceog]

If a person wants a system purely as playback, any mid fi or pro audio gear will do. High end audio is for enthusiasts and connoisseurs. It like comparing a sustaining meal to a gourmet one. As my father used to say "use the right tool for the right job". When playing with high end, returns are not the objective. Its a market for the discerning. People will buy what they want at prices that they can afford for qualities that is important to them. This is profound in its simplicity, "If you can't tell immediately the difference, it's not worth it to you..." Herb Reichert

[@eccentric363]

I can relate to the term "sound density". Its the very description I tell others after hearing a certain Australian soprano in a small hall. Her voice totally saturated the air, like you were immersed in a pool of liquid and the liquid was her voice! Thats sound density.

[@scottchegg1209]

Herb seriously cool dude. Like Steve knows his onions. Great point Herb regarding age and listening. I agree 100%. No teacher like experience!

[@kjbiz]

Great show. I might drop herb a line 😊

[@Sigmatankeryanker]

As a ex-musician, I can tell you that the difference on the piano sound in person and a recording is the focus, there is a focus/attention on the recording to get the full sound at closed, a good example of this, it's like watching any ball game at the stadium, you're not going to get all the details like you will get watching the same game on TV....

[@markhusbands6132]

That is a very interesting point. Recording quality, density and levels vary so vastly that you can't compare any random piano recording with a real instrument.

[@Sigmatankeryanker]

@@markhusbands6132 exactly, it really countdowns to what the engineer(s) intentions are, it's basically like opinions, everybody has one and in any kinds of levels!....

[@iettord3124]

8:45 Spot on. The first step into the rabbit hole.

[@carlitomelon4610]

Listening to the new HR Thelonious Monk "Alone in San francisco" this morning. So the piano sounds pretty good (not real), but the music LIVES! You can hear room reverb, Monk tap his feet & murmur as he plays....who knows how long ago. A Stereo is a time machine: The windows may be a little fogged up, but its magical none the less!

[@spunkthecombo]

Great episode! Love you and Herb. Pure Class A means that total output of the amp runs at all Class A. Some Class A/B point out that their amps runs up to 10 to 30 watts in Class A then after the 10 to 30 watts it switches to Class A/B. Class A to me still sounds the best.

[@pandstar]

As Herb states, we may loose some of our high frequency hearing as we age, but there are so many other aspects to hearing, that we don't loose. We can still hear: dynamics, timbre, soundstage and imaging, detail, transpararancy... Not to mention, that the vast majority of musical instruments, even with harmonics, do not extend past 16K hz, most are under 12K.

[@neilfisher7999]

I think the question of diminishing returns could apply to all audio gear at any price. The fact is that audio gear is not something that is essential to sustaining life. It is a hobby and an entertainment piece. If it is something you enjoy and it brings a satisfaction and quality to your life that you deem necessary then you will spend whatever amount of money you can based on your personal income level and wealth. Very little audio equipment is an appreciating asset. Most of it depreciates over time and becomes disposable at some point. If I were a wealthy person I would spend maybe 10 times as much on audio gear because it makes me happy listening to music, and I want the best gear I can afford. I am sure most audiophiles might feel somewhat the same. It doesn’t matter that doubling the amount you spend on gear doesn’t double the sound quality. What matters is that it is something that makes you happy collecting, tweaking, modifying and listening to. So I say spend as much money as you can within your budget and enjoy the journey. Life is short, why not enjoy it to the fullest. You can’t take your money with you.