The Portland MAX is slow. This is how to fix it.

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Portland (Oregon) has a decent light rail system that spans a large amount of the region, but it has a fatal flaw - it is very slow in the city center. Let's talk about how to fix this.
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[@TheReactorLore]

LRTs need downtown tunnels, but they need to be fast, even in car centric areas. The Eglinton Crosstown's major flaw is how unreliable it becomes on the east end because it is in the middle of the street and, since the transit priority will be very limited, cars will pass over the tracks and slow down the trams. For that reason, LRT should have good transit priority signals and be surrounded by wide sidewalks and protected two-way bicycle paths.

[@BigBlueMan118]

I don't think LRT needs downtown tunnels to succeed, and I've talked to experts about this who are of the same opinion. Many of the most successful modern examples of such systems in North America (Calgary + San Diego + Houston + Portland) don't have downtown tunnels but rather went with the transit mall option of closing streets mostly or entirely to cars. Perhaps the best most recent example of this I can think of is Sydney, Australia whose latest Light Rail line has completely transformed that corridor, but then Sydney only allows 20kmh/12mph down their transit mall because pedestrians are the highest priority there. Thing is you have to be willing to prioritise transit + people over cars and give your LR full priority. There may still be cases where some form of downtown tunnel is preferable of course.

[@rebeccawinter472]

Yes and no. It can depend on the city and the system. But having a separate right of way - a tramway of some sort - for most of the route, particularly through congested downtown areas, is a must.

[@MarioFanGamer659]

@@rebeccawinter472 " a tramway of some sort" _More_ than a tramway.

[@TheRandCrews]

Crosstown was initially supposed to be a subway anyways 😬

[@liamhodgson]

Like Pittsburgh…above ground and (mostly) separate ROW in the neighborhoods and suburbs, buried downtown with all lines serving the main attractions

[@markdebruyn1212]

The old tracks in Downtown can also be used as an alternative route if there is maintenance or something bad going on in the tunnel.

[@eliplayz22]

That's what I was thinking

[@Afitts00]

@@markdebruyn1212 This idea reminds me of the brown line in Pittsburgh. It's no longer in service but they still maintain the tracks since they use it to bypass a tunnel that closes for maintenance sometimes. If the surface tracks in Portland are taken over by the streetcar then I definitely think they should maintain the connection to MAX so that trains can use the tracks when needed.

[@yonirapaport330]

I wonder if they could also be used by the streetcar if there was some expansion of that system

[@markdebruyn1212]

@@yonirapaport330 In Düsseldorf there are sections where the light rail and streetcar share the same track and stops

[@SeattlePioneer]

@@Afitts00

[@goldie819]

The US in general also has a cultural roadblock in that everyone thinks public transit is just for poor people.

[@obifox6356]

Not in NYC !

[@1978dkelly]

@@obifox6356 I'd say it exists there, too. Hochul basically bowed down to car-brains who were twitterpated about the upcoming congestion pricing. As they say, in America (even NYC), the car always wins.

[@XError40404]

@@1978dkelly Yeah but the people who complained were mostly people in the suburbs who drive into NYC

[@obifox6356]

Transit and Congestion pricing are a carrot and stick situation. A defect in the NYC plan was too little benefit for the West and North suburbs. But the whole point is the stick. If people are not uncomfortable, the plan isn’t working. The “pause” doesn’t make sense, because there will never be a time when some people will not be comfortable. Which is necessary for the plan to work.

[@joshvaughan3403]

Portland doesn't have this problem to the same degree as most other places in the country. Although the MAX has had a bad reputation for being gross and unsafe in recent years.

[@TheMrDwillison]

Growing up in Portland I thought the MAX was the coolest thing. When they expanded into my neck of the woods with the Green Line and later the Orange Line, it was game over for me. I was going downtown every other day. After moving to Chicago though, it's so jarring every time I go back with the amount of at-grade crossings, especially on the Yellow line which has a no dedicated right of way until you hit Rose Quarter, then runs down the middle of Interstate Ave until the last two stops going to the Expo Center. I feel like the system hasn't caught up to Portland's growth and it's really starting to show. I know getting cities to pay money for public transit infrastructure is like pulling teeth, but a complete overhaul of the MAX system would be a game changer and catch Portland up to that truly urbanist standard.

[@RMTransit]

It definitely needs more of a quality over quantity focus going forward!

[@PalmelaHanderson]

The yellow line at least gets absolute right of way when it traveling on Interestate ave. Potential hazards reduce the speed somewhat, but at the very least it never has to stop for traffic.

[@Fordry]

Yellow line needs a significant upgrade in conjunction with the upcoming Columbia bridge crossing. The current lack of speed on the line will be a significant damper on the effectiveness of the crossing.

[@issaccoltman6249]

Small correction, the city of Portland doesn't fund nor controls Trimet. It's run by the state-- because it runs over three different county jurisdictions.

[@KianLeiner]

At 9:30, you suggest giving orange line trains a place to turn around. That really isn't needed, since the orange line is basically just an extension of the yellow line. Northbound orange line trains change into yellow line trains in downtown, and vice versa for southbound yellow line trains.

[@Afitts00]

Yep, labeling them separately was a marketing thing so they could give the southeast a "new MAX line" instead of just extending an existing one

[@dfor]

@@andreah1023 that really only ever happens if there is a disruption somewhere along the lines and trains need to turn around, or if there was some technical problem that delayed a train and they’re trying to get that train back on its scheduled time. Pre pandemic there were 2 train runs that went from Ruby yard to expo center then into downtown and back to Ruby yard (and one doing to the same from Ruby to park and back to the yard) during morning rush hour to add capacity, but those runs have since been removed.

[@zilfondel]

There are several scheduled yellow line trains that turn around at PSU I stead of continuing on to Milwaukie.

[@dfor]

@@zilfondel the last 2 southbound yellows at the end of the night turn at Jackson because they would be getting to Ruby yard too late to be practical if they continued to milwaukie. They don’t turn there during regular daytime service hours. And at the start of the fall service sign up none will since they’re being replaced by night buses.

[@FerryTerminal68]

@@Afitts00 The reason for the separate line designations (that I've heard) was that the federal funding appropriation for rail projects was higher for new lines as opposed to extensions.

[@AverytheCubanAmerican]

It's also worth mentioning regarding Portland is that the system has Washington Park station, which is the deepest transit station in both North America and the Western Hemisphere! It has a depth of 260 ft or around 79 m! It doesn't have long escalators like deep Soviet metro systems but rather elevators. The station has a geological theme, and so to go along with it, the floor indicators outside the elevators refer to its two levels not by floor numbers but by "the present" and "16 million years ago"! The "16 million years ago" refers to the basalt layers the Robertson Tunnel (named for William D. Robertson, who served on the TriMet board of directors and was its president at the time of his death) passes through, and due to variations in the rock composition, the tunnel curves mildly side to side and up and down to follow the best rock construction conditions! A core sample taken during construction is actually on display at the station with a timeline of local geologic history! The station serves the Hoyt Arboretum, Oregon Vietnam Veterans Memorial, Oregon Zoo, and World Forestry Center! The station opened in September 1998 as part of the Westside MAX extension to downtown Hillsboro. The reason the station is so deep is because prior to the start of preliminary engineering efforts, the Portland City Council asked TriMet to consider building a rail tunnel through the West Hills instead of following the Sunset Highway alternative proposal to run tracks on the surface alongside Canyon Road. TriMet's engineers noted that this surface option would carry a steep six- to seven-percent grade as opposed to only two percent in a tunnel. Thus, they went with a tunnel, identified three tunnel options, and chose the one with the option to serve the Oregon Zoo! Two other deep stations in North America include Wheaton and Forest Glen on the DC Metro's Red Line, both are deep because tunneling through soft rock close to the surface just wasn't doable, and the Forest Glen community opposed an above-ground station because a parking lot would've demolished homes. Wheaton contains 230-foot-long (or around 70 m) escalators, the longest set of single-span escalators in the Western Hemisphere. And even smaller cities have tunnels for LRT within their downtown, like the Newark City Subway portion of the Newark Light Rail in Newark, NJ! The line originally opened in 1935 along the old Morris Canal right-of-way, from Broad Street (now known as Military Park) to Heller Parkway (now replaced by the nearby Branch Brook Park station). The line extended to Newark Penn in 1937, and Franklin Ave (now Branch Brook Park station) in 1940. It wouldn't be extended to Grove Street in Bloomfield until 2002. The line acts as a "subway-surface" line, so it runs underground from Penn Station to Warren Street-NJIT, and above-ground north of Warren Street! When NJ Transit was formed in 1979 and took over the Newark City Subway in 1980, the PCCs ended up in NJ Transit disco stripe colors, and their NJ Transit forms looked really cool, cool enough I got a Corgi model of it! PCCs were first used on the line in 1954 when 30 of them were bought from Minneapolis-St Paul's Twin City Rapid Transit Company (originally built in 1946-1949 by the St. Louis Car Company), and they lasted all the way until 2001 when they were replaced by Kinki-Sharyo LRVs. The Newark City Subway's Military Park station was actually used for scenes of the Gotham subway during The Dark Knight Rises. Newark's streetcar history runs deep, as what's now PSEG headquarters was once the Public Service Terminal, a three-level streetcar station owned and operated by the Public Service Corporation, adjacent to the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad's (whose successor is PATH) former Park Place station (Park Place closed in 1937 after Newark Penn opened in 1935). It served as the terminus for streetcar or interurban lines from as far as Trenton. Public Service was both a transportation company and a utility, providing electric and gas service to much of northern New Jersey, but today no longer runs transit with its energy utility becoming PSEG and selling its transit to NJT in the 1980s, and the terminal was demolished in 1981. Most streetcars used the upper level, reached by a ramp from Mulberry Street on the east side. Some used the lower level, reached on the west side from Washington Street by a two-block Cedar Street Subway. In 2006, the former Cedar Street subway junction with the City Subway line was re-purposed to connect a new branch to Newark Broad Street station.

[@yetanotherrandomguy]

In portland oregon the ground water table is too high in the downtown are for rail transit tunneling. The westside tunnel to Hillsboro is a good example of the wet conditions and the struggle to manage the ground waters durring wet seasons.

[@Sammie1053]

Some notes as someone who has spent a lot of time in Portland: 1) MAX already has at least one tunnel! The red and blue lines go through a tunnel on the way out to the suburbs, and the Washington Park station is underground in the tunnel. Tri-Met already has at least some experience with tunnels and underground stations on the MAX. 2) Steel Bridge is a particular bottleneck because it’s a drawbridge. It doesn’t raise all that often, but when it does, every MAX line but the orange line gets disrupted as a result. 3) While not a problem that can’t be overcome, I will say that a MAX subway tunnel would be more expensive to construct than a subway tunnel in other cities due to the Cascadia Subduction Zone. For those who don’t know, Portland doesn’t have a history of earthquakes, but it’s in close proximity to a fault line that causes rare but catastrophic earthquakes (we’re talking Richter 9.0+) every few hundred years. The next “big one” is arguably overdue, and seismologists expect it’s more likely than not Portland will experience a 7.0 or higher within the next hundred years. A MAX tunnel would need to be constructed (in the muddy soil of the west side, no less!) to withstand a record-breaking quake. 4) I need to address the elephant in the room… A significant portion of Portland’s infamous homeless population is located in that very same west side corridor. The Washington Park station is far enough outside of downtown that it’s not an issue, but stations and tunnels in the downtown core would need a strong security presence (and, unfortunately, hostile architecture) or they’d get taken over by underground encampments almost immediately.

[@madavanraja3636]

To add to your 1st point, Washington Park Station is the only underground station in the MAX network and is the deepest transit tunnel in the Western Hemisphere.

[@WilliamTheTubTaft]

The additional reason the Steel Bridge is a problem is that the interlocking by the rose quarter is quickly reaching its maximum capacity limiting the headways on all lines.

[@hobog]

There's much tunneling expertise from Seattle, Vancouver, and Portland

[@hobog]

Is trespassing at Sf's muni tunnel portals bad?

[@marksando3082]

I mean, Seattle is also in the subduction zone and they built a transit tunnel years ago..

[@dart157]

Dallas had a very good and very comprehensive idea to solve a very similar problem. We planned D2 (Downtown 2nd Alignment) to run underneath Downtown Dallas as a means to increase frequency, decrease congestion on the transit mall by splitting the four lines (two on the surface lines, two underground), and to add more service to more areas. Instead, DART focused on the Silver Line (which was still a needed transit asset), and later shelved D2 in favor of other projects, like expanding the bus network, securing more funds, the Silver Line, etc. I'm sure DART will eventually build D2, and we're all hoping they do, so that way DART can handle the increasing ridership and frequency demands of its system.

[@RMTransit]

I think a disappointing tradeoff, frequency of the whole system is going to have a much bigger ridership impact than the Silver line

[@danwindham1]

@@RMTransit what's frustrating is that the silver line was a nod to the suburbs that contribute to Dart with sales tax, and this year all the nearby suburbs' city councils are discussing cutting Dart funding anyway. So much of the systems woes is caused by making it essentially commuter rail instead of focusing on it serving dallas' densest core. But if it only focused on things like the D2 tunnel, the suburbs would inevitably pull out, not seeing their needs met.

[@orthrus4490]

​@RMTransit There's a little more that they got out of canceling D2 than just the silver line that makes it a more fair trade off. A bunch of the older stations are being upgraded for system wide 3 car compatibility, and they're overhauling the signaling network in order to increase frequency to a peak of either 7.5 or 10 minutes on all 4 lines. The main thing that postponing D2 allowed though was a complete overhaul of DARTs horrible bus network. It's happening in phases, but a major emphasis on increased frequency, reliability, and service quality (plus faster and more efficient route planning) is going to be a game changer for Dallas' bus network. Considering the majority of rail passengers don't go through downtown it's actually (in my opinion at least) the better choice to postpone it and focus on the bigger, more fundamental issues with DARTs network (especially the busses, they've needed overhauling for over a decade at this point)

[@erikanders3343]

I am shocked that Abbott has not passed a law banning all transit construction. I’m sure Elon will bribe for it

[@drdewott9154]

God this would be a good idea. Especially the 2 tunnel solution. And like you mentioned, with Portlands existing streetcar system, they could take over the existing corridors for great local connectivity, all while the tunnels can partially serve new or underserved areas or connect across the streetcar corridors AND provide relief in the case of maintenance or other disruptions. With Tunnels, Portland really could go from Good to outstanding!

[@robert1200]

As someone who grew up in Portland, I don't think it will be happening any time soon. The car is still king in America, and even in places like Portland the political right has strong power to block transit projects. For example, Oregon Legislature just repealed Measure 110 a few months ago, a measure which was supposed to end the failed war on drugs. Maybe a 2040s or 2050s completion date. Meanwhile during that time China has likely built thousands of kilometers of public transit just for Portland to build 7 miles...

[@Myrtone]

Is he saying that the tunnel could be shared by more routes?

[@markdebruyn1212]

@@Myrtone Yes, most German light rail networks have tunnel that are shared by multiple routes and even San Francisco and Boston does this

[@SeattlePioneer]

WHEEEE! And special; today ---TWO tunnels for ten billion dollars each (or whatever) The taxpayers have too much money anyway! If we don't take it away from them and spend on our keen stuff, they will just spend it on greasy food and gasoline.

[@RMTransit]

@@markdebruyn1212 Exactly

[@kevansf]

I live in Portland and have long thought about the need for a subway under the city center, from around the Lloyd Center to about Goose Hollow (near the Providence Park MLS stadium). But, even before Covid, downtown was hardly bustling and it just didn't feel dense and busy enough to merit a subway system. There's really not a lot of business there or much in the way of tourist attractions, compared to major cities with a subway. At any rate, I'd definitely support building a tunnel for all the reasons you covered, and more. At the very least, it would make MAX more attractive for those in the west-side suburbs (Beaverton and Hillsboro) for going to and from the airport. And given time, a subway would likely usher in some growth. Attract some new businesses downtown which would now be easier to get to for suburban workers. Encourage new residential towers near the subway lines. Inspire some new shopping or cultural destinations. Transit projects definitely should be built with an eye to the future rather than as a catch-up measure. After all, any downtown tunnel/subway system would take years, if not a decade to come to fruition. But there's one more benefit of a subway that you didn't mention in your video: It would be much more pleasant to wait for a train in an underground station when it's cold and raining in the winter or hot as heck in the summer!

[@WalterOtterly]

Downtown is a business district and as you side even before COVID it wasn't the place to be. All things do down are on the east side.

[@christiankruse1970]

@@WalterOtterly That's a reflection on how things have changed. The original line was designed to make downtown a destination which is why it has so many stops. It worked well for a while but the eventual dysfunction of the government killed a lot of the desire to be downtown.

[@marksando3082]

I feel like not only MAX but TRIMET in general has too many stops for trains and buses. They all are having to stop too often most of the time.

[@jazzcatjohn]

I once took a bus from Gresham transit station to downtown due to MAX being shut down. It took forever due to the ridiculous frequency of stops. After having lived in NYC where people take the train but also walk...a lot. I couldn't believe how close the stops were to each other.

[@jordanhamann9123]

The red line should be an express line with limited stops to the airport. The blue line can be the local connector

[@SeattlePioneer]

That's true for Seattle's light rail system as well. The real solution would have been to have express bus services that would cover limited areas, and dispense with light rail altogether.

[@jawsua32]

Yes! The bus stops are way too close together. The lines around me all have stops every 1/10 to 1/5 a mile. At least a third of the stops can be removed.

[@BelyndaShannon]

Spoken like someone with good, young knees.

[@mulad]

Downtown Minneapolis really slows down Metro Transit's Blue and Green lines with poorly-timed traffic signals. That often messes up schedules, so a tunnel would be great there. They need to at least implement strong traffic signal priority there. Portland partially avoids that by skipping traffic signals on many intersections, though possibly only on one-way streets. The speed benefit of tunnels (or elevated lines, where appropriate) is huge, since instead of being restricted to roadway speeds of 20-30 mph (if trains can even reach that between signals), they can run as fast as the equipment, tracks, and distance between stops allows

[@jacob07221]

@@mulad it’s even worse. trains are limited to 12mph in downtown portland

[@RMTransit]

Part of the issue in the Twin cities is that light rail doesn't really through run the downtowns, which hurts the value of a tunnel!

[@mulad]

@@RMTransit It will. The southwest extension of the Green Line is around 80% complete

[@THECHEEESEBALL]

@@RMTransit The Twin cities light rail’s (as a Minneapolis resident) suburban expansion isn’t planned very well. I think our light rail has a lot of potential but it needs to be planned right.

[@FlorianGampe-z1c]

Love your content Rece. One request though: could you please put a scale in the maps that you show so I can get a sense of scale? That would be much appreciated

[@PenandInk2012]

We need this tunnel and also a tunnel under the Columbia for I-5 and a light rail line into Vancouver. Oh, and another light rail line into East Vancouver to connect to the Airport. Keep up the great work.

[@xyz24601]

As a frequent rider of Portland's MAX system to travel from suburbs to downtown and across the city, I would love to see the addition of tunnels to increase train speed and efficiency. But I have to say that I enjoy the vibe of street cars running through the city with road traffics. It resonates with the small and scalable feeling of Portland metro area. Also I kind of doubt the capability of the city to construct such a project. It requires time/money and lots of planning. It took 8 years to get the Seattle's Bellevue to Redmond lightrail done, and that area is one of the most fast-developing and rich area in US.

[@wastucar8127]

As someone from Portland (and hoping to move back after University) I agree, but the streetcar system still works for that. And of course it would be difficult but depending on the timing and the political winds at DC there would be grants we could apply for for the city, and expertise coming out of CA HSR.

[@purplebrick131]

There's a lot of expertise out there, maybe not in the US though, which is why you'd bring in experts. There are a lot of small cities in germany, smaller than portland, which have executed downtown-tunnels for their Stadtbahnen. The task would be to tap into that network, not the scale of the city

[@zilfondel]

Portland really isn't small though, the city is 650k and metro is over 2.5 million. Its the 25th largest metro area in the US!

[@bgabriel28]

Vancouver, BC managed to build tunnels and bridges for its skytrain system. It's around the same size as Portland and probably not much wealthier, if it is at all. It's purely a question of priorities. If the city and state make it a priority, it will happen. And it would be a smart investment, as it would improve service and boost ridership on the whole system.

[@FerryTerminal68]

@@bgabriel28 I really wish people would stop making this comparison. Vancouver is the only major city on Canada's west coast. Their system [exists] because they were hosting Expo86, with subsequent expansions in conjunction with the Olympics. MAX was built to reuse former freeway funds, and was budget-constrained from the start. Canadian cities have less competition for federal funds in general.

[@SupremeLeaderKimJong-un]

While Hudson-Bergen Light Rail doesn't have a tunnel for its downtown Jersey City portion, it's still grade-separated in its own right-of-way for much of the segment, with the only street-running segment being Essex Street! At-grade crossings are equipped with transit-priority signals to automatically change traffic lights in favor of the light rail. And the HBLR uses a tunnel, the Weehawken Tunnel, to go between Port Imperial and Tonnelle Ave while serving Bergenline Ave in Union City as an underground station. Much of the HBLR is repurposed ROW, and the Weehawken Tunnel is no exception as it was once used the New York Central Railroad's West Shore Railroad division for trains that served the former Weehawken Terminal (now the Port Imperial ferry terminal) to Buffalo. It was also used by the New York, Ontario and Western Railway for service to Chicago. And thanks to the HBLR, it has been a catalyst for both residential and commercial development along the route and has played a significant role in the revitalization of Hudson County. Many of the stops were sited in vacant or underutilized areas and have since seen intense residential and mixed-use development. The HBLR has multiple connections, like at Hoboken Terminal connecting to NJT buses, NJT rail, PATH, and ferries, and it goes where people wanna go, whether it's Hoboken, a state park, the mall, university, etc! Not to mention, Hoboken and Jersey City both improving their biking infrastructure and implementing Vision Zero for safer streets have helped a lot! The St Louis MetroLink network also uses repurposed right-of-way for their tunnel downtown! The Eads Bridge was once briefly used by Amtrak trains between 1971 and 1974 (stopped on the year of Eads Bridge's centennial). So when they were constructing the underground stations downtown, the tunnel was already there, using the St Louis Freight Tunnel which went to the Eads Bridge with trains using its lower deck. The Eads Bridge stands out, not only because it was the first bridge across the Mississippi south of the Missouri River, as earlier bridges were located north of the Missouri where the Mississippi is smaller, but because none of the earlier bridges survived, it means that the Eads Bridge is also the oldest bridge on the entire Mississippi River! On the Red Line, trains use the former Wabash/Norfolk & Western Railroad's Union Depot line that once brought passenger trains from Ferguson to Union Station. When the Red Line makes a stop at the Delmar Loop station, it is located just below the original Wabash Railroad's Delmar Station building! On the Blue Line, it follows a former Terminal Railroad Association of St. Louis (TRRA)/Rock Island railroad right of way. When they were constructing Skinker and University City-Big Bend stations, they faced opposition because that section was gonna be street-running, so they opted to build them underground! So thanks to NIMBYs, they ironically made the Blue Line a better and quicker service through no street-running!

[@standardannonymousguy]

Hi Reese, this is a great pitch. I agree that some of the stops currently in downtown are way too close together, like the park Ave (10th) and the Pioneer square stops. Portland has a lot going on at the moment. The Burnside bridge is going to be torn down and replaced. The new bridge will have light rail on it, but I believe it'll be a streetcar. Also the massive I-5 bridge replacement project over the Columbia River connecting Oregon to Washington is going to have LRT on it, and is going to take a lot of the area's resources. How deep is your proposal? A tunnel would most certainly affect the ground water of the area (maybe the aquifer?) and would adversely impact some of the very old great trees in the area. Most definitely we should consider this, I like the straighter route ideas and repurposing the existing track for Streetcars. Thanks for posting this I always enjoy your work!

[@Captaintauri]

Very noice videos I follow closely for almost a year now. Could you talk about Singapore more? I’m a resident of Singapore and absolutely love it and think its transit is underrated. I’ve seen you have made 1 video on Singapore on the mrt but am disappointed you don’t do more videos and Singapore’s example for the world especially regarding great TODs.

[@maartena]

The biggest problem with tunnels in Portland is the one thing that Portland does not have: Money. They have a city budget shortfall at the moment, so they are going to have to go to Washington DC with their puppy eyes and pretty pleases for a cut of the big infrastructure bill.

[@RMTransit]

Well, if that money is still available from DC . . . but money is usually available from states, the feds etc.if there is a clear and beneficial plan!

[@alexanderwyattberg]

While that’s true, it’s just that we’re in the midst of a long-overdue replacement of the century-old I-5 bridge, which both Oregon and Washington’s state budgets - along with the federal government - are contributing billions to. It’s hard to imagine those governments contributing to a tunnel before they’re done contributing to the bridge project first.

[@garrettguillotte4925]

@@RMTransit The Get Moving 2020 proposal that had funding for the required environmental assessment would have included $2B in federal funds for the whole project, which included the SW MAX extension and more bus lines, but because voters rejected the $4B regional tax proposal that didn't happen. TriMet got federal money two years ago but focused the spending on bus service improvements (namely the rapid FX line), an electric bus fleet, and a streetcar extension to NW, plus funding toward the I-5 bridge replacement. The SW corridor light rail project from Get Moving 2020 is still being pursued with federal money but the tunnel proposal is, if not dead, at the very least deep on the backburner.

[@llcoolbeanz9395]

IIRC, the Metro government, rather than the Portland city council, would be the entity to fund maintenance & expansion of the MAX line. But your general point regarding money is taken - yes, budget shortfalls are always prohibiting Trimet from improving and expanding its service. Any large-scale expansion like the one proposed in this video would like have to be funded via a separate, voter-approved bond referendum. Likely to the tune of 2 or 3 billion (or more) just for the downtown tunnel portion.

[@garrettguillotte4925]

@@llcoolbeanz9395 Metro's 2019 feasibility study for Get Moving 2020 projected a cost of $3.5-4 billion just for the downtown tunnel. So far they've prioritized the SW corridor expansion, which is still a $2.5-$3B project on its own, over the tunnel.

[@anemoneyas]

A tunnel would probably be the biggest improvement, the MAX also has a huge problem with bad land use. A large number of stations outside the city canter are positioned so they're far away from any housing or shopping, next to highways, abandoned industrial parks, or, in one case, a walled off golf course. More people would probably use the max if they didn't have to walk a mile on a narrow sidewalk next to highway speed car traffic to get to the station.

[@ronnyrueda5926]

I wish LA had extended it's Light Rail tunnel just a mile longer. That street running segment between 11th and Washington is a missed opportunity.

[@SeattlePioneer]

[@pauly5418]

@@SeattlePioneer LA spends more than that building NEW highways. Yes, they're still building highways. So, yes they have the money. It's all about political will.

[@mrxman581]

​@@pauly5418LA is not building freeways anymore.

[@mrxman581]

That's not a missed opportunity. It would have been even more expensive than the part that was built because it would require new stations and removing existing stations. LA Metro doesn't have that money. Funding for the next several years is already allocated. The Regional Connector was a huge game changer for LA Metro.

[@compdude100]

@@SeattlePioneer And yet I don't see you complaining about money wasted on expanding freeways when adding more lanes does not reduce congestion. LA widened part of I-405 about a decade ago and spent a billion dollars on that project, but that money was essentially wasted because traffic congestion just got worse. Same happened with I-10 (the Katy Freeway) in Houston--they wasted $2 billion widening that freeway and it didn't improve traffic at all. There are even examples as far back as the 1930s, where NYC built the Triborough Bridge to relieve traffic on the nearby Queensborough Bridge to fix traffic on that bridge, but the new bridge got immediately congested and the Queensborough did not see any reduction in traffic. This is known as induced demand and has been known about since the 1950s. It's not something that liberals came up with because they have some sort of irrational hatred towards cars like I used to think. Honestly, urban freeways have been for the most part a complete waste of money. The rural freeways on the Interstate Highway System are fine, but the freeways should have been built around the cities rather than through them.

[@cobalt8619]

Minneapolis is easily a contender for a downtown LRT Tunnel or elevated section. Especially with the future Green and Blue line extensions. Cross regional trips are gonna be so slow (The green line should be elevated or tunneled between Minneapolis and downtown St. Paul too, its insanely slow)

[@nativeportlander]

Neat video. One thing of note: Orange lines wouldn’t need a turn around as Orange and Yellow are the same line. They just change colors when they are north or south of downtown.

[@jordanhamann9123]

I just wish the Max, at the very least, didn't have to stop for red lights downtown. It's true, I've seen it happen.

[@FreeRadicalX]

It's so bizarre that lights don't wait for the Max instead, because they wait for the Max outside of center city (Like on Interstate Ave).

[@OlNoName]

This is cool to see! I live near the end of the blue line, so I've taken the max before to portland and gosh it felt slow having to stop so often. This is funny to see because as it stands, tri met seems to want to expand the MAX all the way to forest grove. What would really be nice (however impractical) is somekind of rail transit connection to the Oregon coast, it'd be nice to be able to visit the beach and not get stuck on the highway with everyone else who had the same idea. Love the video, never thought about changes like this, but i'd love to see it!

[@lexid9774]

Lloyd to Goose Hollow is PAINFUL to ride 😭 there are stops every 3 blocks, and you get stuck waiting on traffic at Steele Bridge constantly. Pure agony

[@cybotnic89]

Same issue in Manchester, UK. 9 lines of service running at street level and a tunnel will be needed eventually as the city keeps growing.

[@bostonbugni4347]

They need to expand the max orange line from milwuakie to lake Oswego on the old freight tracks and potentially to Bridgeport. Also expanding the orange line to Clackamas town center and Oregon city; expand the green line to Oregon city as well. Also expand the blue line to S.E. Anderson rd past Gresham. And a new line / extension along I-87 to Troutdale. Also they need to improve bus services with TSP, shelters, better seats, etc it can start with new buses like padded seats and maybe even chargers. Also an improved Trimet app that has HOP integrated. Etc, etc.

[@gorak9000]

Those shots of the Edmonton LRT stations gave me flashbacks. Rode that thing every day for 12 years!

[@Airgotravelsworldwide]

You got lucky you can film a Light Rail Train in Seattle! The frequency is so bad here, running every 20 minutes during rush hour. And you were right about people crowding by the doors.

[@Soporbum42]

Living in Hillsboro, I sometimes use MAX to get to the Airport and WOW would that trip be so much faster with this tunnel! Is that Master Planned Music or do you and CPP just have similar taste ;-)

[@AlexSchendel]

The downtown MAX tunnel study is from 2018 and I havent heard any updates on it. I really hope that it gets through eventually. This is desparately needed. There are too many Portland voters who seem insistent that busses are the answer for everything. The part of the city I live in couldve been connected by the Southwest corridor, but voters insisted that it wasn't worth the cost.

[@bbundridge]

What a great video! I did a presentation years ago advocating a new tunnel with spurs for the Yellow/Orange lines. The only difference is that I suggested starting from the Lloyd Center to maintain the 55mph off I-84 to Goose Hollow and maintain its speed into the Washington Tunnel, with stops at Lloyd Center, Rose Quarter/Steel Bridge, Union Station, Downtown/City Center, PSU and Goose Hollow. It would take 8.5 minutes to travel the distance with 400 foot platforms. The platform issue is much harder because since Trimet has built everything for 2-car trains, expansion in most of the outlining stations will require a total rebuild and property acquisitions. As Orange/Yellow lines run together, no need for separate spurs anymore. The Portland Streetcar taking over the surface level tracks and stations could easily allow getting around the city better. Overall, it would be an amazing transit improvement. If I recall, the ridership would see over 190-250k passengers a day by those improvements just on MAX.

[@TheRevinEvan2]

I hope Portland’s new representatives watch this. I would also love to see more public transport options along Lombard, Killingsworth, Sandy, etc…

[@mrxman581]

The Regional Connector for LA Metro was a game changer. It made the entire system more efficient.

[@jbtallguy]

As someone who works for TriMet. Funding tunnel construction would be an extremely difficult task.

[@GardenerTobak]

Well said. Well researched. But it's EXTREMELY expensive so good luck getting it done. Bear in mind it took us 20+ years just to fund and agree upon a bridge over the Columbia River and we're still working on the plan.

[@TheLiamster]

This is such a great project and I hope it gets built. I wonder what other US and Canadian cities would benefit from downtown tunnels and if there are proposals for any of them?

[@stickynorth]

Calgary for starters. It has always planned for an 8th Avenue/Stephen Avenue subway line from the beginning when even Bechtel was helping to plan for subway services in Edmonton and Calgary. Before they decided on Frankfurt-based LRT systems... Even Calgary City Hall has a brief stub tunnel built into/under it for trains to branch onto a future mile-long tunnel running parallel to this existing transitway on 7th... Edmonton also has plans on finishing their downtown subway loop... Eventually... Two stations are missing that if they added it would be a fully enclosed urban loop subway. MacEwan University which sits across the street from MacEwan Station (which needs upgrades and a new name) which is next to Rogers Place is close but not on the campus which now has 20,000+ students merged from 3 separate campuses into one. And Railtown which was a crappy 90's redevelopment of the old CP train yards. The buildings are pretty bland but it's a dense walkable neighbourhood with everything from Best Buy to Save On Foods, Mucho Burrito, Burger's Priest on site which kind of makes it the defacto downtown mall most of the week these days... There's also a roughed into ghost station under the abandoned urban remand centre/provincial office building and Edmonton Police HQ but it was never finished or used for its intended purposes of shuffling prisoners from remand/court house to the actual jails in the far NE part of the city... It would also make a great Intermodal High Speed Rail terminal site since Premier Stelmach first pitched the concept back in 2008.. Especially since it would be on the existing subway and pedway networks half a block from the main city square...

[@clayton97330]

Pronounced "Willamette" correctly!!

[@TransitAndTeslas]

Rhyme with damn it! As in it’s Willamette Damn It!

[@bobg56]

Assuming you have the money (which is a big assumption), how long would it take to build these tunnels? Doesn't happen over night.

[@xparadoxicallyx]

As a MAX user and Portlander, please let’s build a tunnel. Fast transit through the downtown core would make it more attractive of an option compared to the driving.

[@GLitchesHaxandBadAudio]

For those systems that are considering elevated LRT in North America, how might this additionally be considered, and what would be the cost-benefit comparison when analyzing for underground vs elevated LRT?

[@calleywang6203]

San Jose's light rail crawls through downtown mixed in with pedestrians and car traffic and arguably needs a tunnel too.

[@ericivy8888]

This is awesome! Us Portlanders need to share this with our new local district representatives!

[@kristofkalmar8516]

Hey there, love your vids! I have topic recommendation for you. If you ever want to make a video on transit systems in smaller European cities/towns (of roughly 160k inhabitants), I suggest you take a look at Szeged, Hungary. As a proud citizen of this beautiful little city, I can honestly say that our transit system is world-class and it is what makes our little city way more successful and liveable compared to other similarly-sized settlements in the region. We have a multimodal system that is all integrated very well; 5 tramlines, 31 buslines, 6 trolleybuslines and even a tramtrain! (With a second one being planned). Our road system was also built very intelligently (which is a story in an of itself because the whole city was destroyed in the 1800s and had to be rebuilt), so almost every line is on time because cars don't really interfere with transit. Shared stops allow for easy changes and most lines terminate in different residential areas on each end, so not only can you go to the center by transit, you can also pretty much get anywhere around here. The frequency and the size of the network eliminates congestions, the vehicles stay pretty breathable, even during rush hour. We also have a pretty well thought out system for connecting our city to nearby villages and towns. On top of all this, we are one of the few smaller cities around here that actually have great plans for future expansions. I'm really proud of Szeged and I think a video like this could be a nice little change of pace, if by any chance you do end up making a video on it, I am here to help with any questions you may have, I can also get you some footage.

[@WanderlustWalkabout]

Hey, Portland resident here, we actually recently had this very issue-or at least the bond measure that would fund it-on the ballot (I think it was in 2020?) and it was the first time a transit initiative failed at the ballot box in Portland history 😬 I’m a huge transit advocate and really appreciate living in one of America’s most transit friendly cities, but even I voted against it. The ballot measure was a bit of a mess, the new taxes were poorly structured and, unlike every previous transit construction tax, had no provision to end once the construction costs were paid for. The measure was also a bit bloated and the real problem was less the tunnel-which got comparatively little attention-and more so the Southwest MAX extension, the would-be Purple Line, to Tualatin & Tigard. The route was terribly inefficient, a meandering compromise designed more to please all the NIMBYs in that area than to actually move people efficiently. Hopefully sometime soon we’ll get a stand-alone tunnel measure that is more likely to pass. But it’s not the highest priority in town atm 🤷‍♂️

[@antonimodlibowski7970]

Video idea: Polish Tri-city area, high speed rail to Gdańsk, s bahn like train connecting the 3 hubs, gdynia uses home built trolley busses, Gdańsk has trams, and sopot shares from both networks

[@brandonbollwark5970]

A tunnle would be ideal but I also think Portland has an option to do a miniature Barcelona with its grid system. Portlands blocks are so small that grouping four of them together could equal one superblock with pedestrian space in the middle. This would mean fewer streets with car traffic crossing MAX tracks. Streets would MAX tracks would also see car traffic removed altogether while the larger block sizes would allow for slightly longer trains.

[@alexhaowenwong6122]

Go with the two tunnel solution, the one tunnel solution seems excessively interlined and could lead to a BART-style core capacity crunch plus underwhelming frequencies that won't drive as much TOD as possible.

[@KoroWerks]

@RMTransit can you make, or reccomend a video on why raised grade is less desirable than tunnel systems? I understand monorails are not as efficient as dual rail trains, but there is absolutely something aesthetically appealing to them, especially compared to at grade crossings etc. Is it cheaper to build tunnels? Is it more of a land use thing, where a tunnel doesn't "take away" from existing space, and in the case of the MAX or retrofitting other existing rail lines, would it(in those cases) make more sense to raise the grade and reduce traffic and wildlife conflicts? Edit: I'm specifically thinking about the areas that are less in the city center. I agree downtown tunnels generally make more sense, but theres a number of at grade crossings throughout all of those long trailing segments, that don't seem like they would be as cost effective to build a tunnel for, and trimet already owns the land rights to.

[@pipolwes000]

I work in Vancouver (WA) and train young adults on using transit systems including MAX. One of my biggest frustrations, after the amount of time it takes to cross downtown Portland, is the lack of interconnectivity across the Columbia. It takes like an hour to even get to downtown from the closest CTran transit center, and that's if you don't miss a bus transfer.

[@Londoncycleroutes]

You should do a video focusing on the MUNI metro in San Francisco - as a Londoner visiting I was amazed when we got on what appeared to be a subway and then when it got out of the centre it started running on streets and stopping at traffic lights like a bus! everyone knows the BART but the MUNI is less known I think

[@bahnspotterEU]

This is just the most basic form of light rail. A tram modified to have a city-centre tunnel for quick journeys through the core of the city. A good amount of other cities also have this, like Den Haag, Antwerp, Brussels, Kraków, Essen, Bochum, Vienna, Philadelphia or Boston.

[@ZontarDow]

If Montreal had the 136's tunnel under downtown converted into a light rail or metro rail tunnel it would be able to handle 4 rails of whichever it uses, meaning you could viably use it to significantly cut down on costs for a heavily modified Pink Line idea by having the rest be above grade and still have room for a light rail or streetcar network to have a line or combined lines that use it.

[@rollinwithunclepete824]

Good video, Reece. Thanks RM Transit is always thought provoking.

[@RipCityBassWorks]

Thanks for making this video: as a frequent MAX rider the street running downtown is ridiculously slow, I frequently bike through downtown to avoid it.

[@sptwentytwo]

The north/south spurs should have stations at the PSU urban center instead of a PSU station several blocks away. I think more streetcar service in The Pearl would make more sense than digging another tunnel.

[@Jesiahjesiah]

Love seeing more tunnel/subway talk for the MAX! One idea I'd like to see gain more traction is that of running a tunnel into St Johns. Sure it's a small neighborhood now, but it's growing extremely rapidly, and the primary two driving routes to it (Interstate-Willamette & Lombard) have gotten exponentially worse traffic in recent years. To the point where people might be incentivized to take public transit instead... if only it were a realistic option for saving time or stress. The time is now to buy up the land and build the tunnel before it gets even more gentrified and financially out of reach. A fork off the Yellow along Lombard is probably most likely, but personally I think an express that goes downtown > Rose Qtr > Swan Island/Mock's Bottom > St Johns (downtown and then industrial north) would be incredible and reshape the way the city moves. Imagine the work commute for Swan Island, or taking the Max to Kelley Point on the weekends. Don't even get me started on how the Willamette Cove Natural Area restoration is going to have a giant parking lot *when they could just put a subway stop there*

[@corderajones]

I like the tunnel but you’ve need to add a stop between Union Station and Pioneer Square for two reasons: 1. That a long walk/distance between the two 2. You’ll keep of the heart/middle of downtown town and the second largest building in the City, the Big Pink aka US Bancorp Tower. East fix just add on stop on burnside or at the big pink. Call it just Burnside or City Center. Another problem would be no MAX access to Civic Stadium/PGE Park/Beaver Stadium (Home of the Portland Timbers of MLS). Sorry but im old school so this stadium would always be called one of the three. Also the spur of the tunnel to the north would be a no go. The Yellow line would no longer have a direct connection to the Rose Quarter. It would have to be a second tunnel stop on the west side just like how the current stop is now. The south spur would be a no go because Portland just spent Millions on a brand new bridge for transit.

[@compdude100]

Yeah, when he was showing the map with the station locations, Burnside was just screaming for a station.

[@matthewtravisano1097]

SF Muni has the central subway and Market Street tunnel (less than perfect) and the combo is pretty good. Surprised SF wasn’t mentioned in the video.

[@MrMasterprocrastinat]

I fully agree with the need for a downtown tunnel, and I hate how slow the system is through downtown. It's a huge issue that I don't see people with power talking enough about fixing. Frankly it's been discouraging. Whenever I see mention of the downtown tunnel by activists or the agency itself, it almost inevitably gets poo-pooed as unrealistic in the local press. Every once in a while I've seen decision makers and press act as though the concept itself is downright ridiculous and impossible, as if we aren't currently paying $7 Bn for a new bridge over the columbia with an accompanying pointless I-5 widening.

[@cedartreeworkshop]

Lifetime Portlander here, former daily MAX user from 2001-2011. Okay, look - MAX ridership was once amazing. Nobody rides it anymore because its alignment and stops were designed for a time when many people worked downtown and lived just outside downtown. The number of people still working downtown are a fraction of what it once was. There’s no demand anymore where MAX goes. It’s disappointing. Most of us work from home, in the burbs, or other parts of town as businesses fled downtown. No commuters, no regular ridership.

[@mapgravy]

I lived in Portland for 5 years. MAX is great at getting you to and from Downtown, but not through downtown. You can race MAX by bicycle downtown and win. A tunnel would do wonders for trips from one side to the other.

[@xanderalmeida1866]

Also worth noting is a lot of bridges that street cars and MAX take over the river are lift bridges, so when large ships comes through, they have to raise the bridge, and that stops all traffic across them for a while.

[@sptwentytwo]

I think the route should be completely grade separated from Washington Park to Hollywood TC and Overlook Park to South Waterfront. This way it avoids all of the small blocks.

[@Driver6M]

Oh boy, this channel needs to review Melbourne Australia's tram network. It is unbelievably slow. Tiny distances between stops, constantly held up by traffic and on street parking. A video on the topic would run for hours 😂

[@stevebrog9517]

I love the entire disregard of costs and the massive disruption of the cut and cover approach. If your going to compare to Seattle, then compare a TBM cost to match approaches and add 80% overrun to the worst case scenario.

[@Jarekthegamingdragon]

There's one more issue this would solve. The max being at street level causes SO MANY delays and disruptions across the entire system because of the inevitable idiot that crashes into the train. How people don't see A FREAKING TRAIN is beyond me but it happens way more than it should.

[@durece100]

Why not use elevated or underground light rail instead on the street level?

[@MattMcIrvin]

The very first subway tunnel in North America (Boston's Tremont Street Subway, now the core of the MBTA Green Line) was a modification to an at-grade streetcar system intended to get them off the street and ease congestion in the city center. And the trains that use it are still basically light rail.

[@justcallmeD90]

I used to live in Portland so seeing this is making me nostalgic

[@pinga858]

Watching this makes me miss San Diego's trolley's. As a teenager it was amazing to walk to the stop and ride all the way into downtown for comic con (this was the early 2000's when it wasn't as huge), and I never realized how lucky I was until I got older. It's not the fastest or most extensive network, but it works great for what it needs to do and SD keeps expanding and making it better and better. Flying over rush hour traffic in the palm trees and city is a vibe you don't get anywhere else. There's also a lot of history with the Trolley as well, from how they got a lucky deal on the tracks, to the public's massive support on restarting the system. SD is one of the very few large cities in the US to restart their streetcar lines, it's not perfect but I'm happy to call it my hometown :)

[@kellybrown8638]

I am a Portlander and I LOVE the light rail system

[@joshvaughan3403]

I love the MAX system in Portland, it has great coverage. Sadly it doesn't make much sense to use for the longer distance trips like Hillsboro -> PDX where driving will always be significantly faster.

[@BlueSky-gu2bx]

I honestly don't know how you can consider driving in and around Metro Portland faster. It is gridlock all damn day every day especially approaches to downtown and in Washington county.

[@Ge0rge249]

We have an extremely weird downtown tunnel-running LRT system in Pittsburgh. It’s really just a couple of legacy streetcar lines that happened to survive, which then eventually were made into a tiny subway system downtown. It is unfortunately the light rail system with highest operating cost per rider in the whole USA, and by a very wide margin. Meanwhile, there is a pretty awesome regional busway (bus-exclusive highway) system that sees higher ridership than the LRT. It’s a bit of a mess. Would love to see a video about it someday

[@RRW359]

On the one hand this needs to happen eventually but on the other I'd prefer that Trimet implements things like at least some 24-hour lines and implements trolleybusses into the whole "all electric by 2030" goal (assuming we are still doing that considering how few busses are all-electric and the difficulty of turning the FX2 busses into BEV's).Also things like putting MAX on the the I5 replacement and determining what to do about WES don't necessarily need to happen tomorrow but should deal with them sooner rather then later.

[@FrederickJenny]

Salt Lake needs a tunnel too, good thing there is the Rio Grande Plan!

[@scottharwood8839]

I used to ride to Old Town from Hillsboro for work. On nice days I would get out at Providence Park and walk to Old Town. That is all the way across Portland downtown from the hill to the river. Seriously! I could beat the train across town by walking. I would have loved a quicker ride... But I probably wouldn't have gotten as much exercise.

[@hampfrey]

watched this video while on the max in downtown, couldn’t agree more

[@dylan_not_dillon]

Downtown tunnels + extending the Green Line southwest are dream MAX additions for me. Hoping we get these asap.

[@MarloSoBalJr]

ASAP = 50 years or never 😅

[@dylan_not_dillon]

@@MarloSoBalJr You hate to see it come that slow. But i’m hopeful things will change and there’ll be push for these things.

[@SamsonOhsem]

Great to see a good train at Portland

[@rebeccawinter472]

I can’t wait to ride it. 😊 This makes too much sense - and the development it could catalyze (and taxes it would generate) - combined with the time savings and the productivity increase for the population means that this would basically pay for itself. I have seen how transit agencies have quantified how traffic delays translate to costs in terms of lost productivity. This would literally make money for Portland.

[@SeattlePioneer]

Here we see how the liars in local government figure. "It will basically PAY FOR ITSELF!"

[@D3r3k2323]

What? Are you trying to say that light rail in Portland has decreased traffic??

[@rebeccawinter472]

@@D3r3k2323 transit decreases traffic, yes. A lane on a freeway can move 1,900 cars per hour maximum. Subways can move 30,000 or more. Light rail often moves 10,000 to 15,000 (per direction), depending on its speed, grade separation and such. So basically a light rail line is equivalent to a 5-8 lane freeway, in terms of its capacity to move people around the city. If you remove it, those people stop taking transit and drive instead. If you make it better, more will take transit and fewer will drive, decreasing traffic. Widening roads only leads to more traffic through the process of induced traffic (also known as “induced demand”) whereby as additional capacity is created, new trips are generated from people who previously may not have made a given trip - either because the trip may have taken too long, or because they chose to take transit but now driving is the better option. The only way to reduce traffic in the long term is to invest in transit.

[@SeattlePioneer]

@@D3r3k2323 Light rail use in Portland has been reduced substantially since the Covid epidemic, and since the "defund the police" politics made light rail substantially more risky and dirty. In Seattle, the heavy rail route from Seattle-Everett, Wa has been declining in use, now with only 500 total users per day. The cost for this service is about $40/passenger The heavy rail option from Seattle-Tacoma has twenty times the use as the north line described above and has been a success.

[@quoniam426]

Trams and LRTs are good COMPLEMENTARY networks, not main networks. For your main network, you need a metro. The current downtown tracks could be reused for a local service.

[@Afitts00]

Portland is a pretty small and dense city. I'm not sure that a city like this would have more than an LRT system even in Europe or Asia.

[@markdebruyn1212]

@@Afitts00 Cologne/Bonn only have a shared light rail network (there is also a heavy commuter rail network) and seems to be running pretty well

[@MarioFanGamer659]

@@Afitts00 It isn't just about Portland itself but also the metropolitian region but also that European and Asian cities tend to have alternative options (that being mainline railways) while Portland doesn't.

[@ryansanchez2269]

While I do think the subway idea is beneficial to Portland as a whole, my one problem with it is the logistics of train lengthening and the rest of the system. In many of the suburbs and including the termini of the red line at the airport, there just isn’t any room to extend stations further without large reconstruction projects. At PDX alone last year they rebuilt the station for the new airport terminal but still constricted it to the 2 car layout, with no room to expand without taking out the new airport terminal. Same thing with a lot of the stations on the orange and yellow lines too as stupid as it is. So while this is an idea that could work it would need a lot more money for an attempt at lengthening trains.

[@BillBodega]

I think there would be a good use for this in branching out to the surrounding areas. Morning TriMet trip from Tigard to downtown is almost an hour and it is regularly PACKED. If we could reduce commuter traffic it would be a game changer.

[@TheJeff0569]

Cleveland Video would be interesting.

[@UppersDownersAllarounders]

I lived a block away from the max as a teenager. It was the best. I still ride the max occasionally and i feel the service was faster and more frequent. This was late 90s, early 2000s

[@cabebishop]

Such a shame that Dallas has cancelled its downtown underground project.

[@msmoe8687]

I've lived here 60 years, charming is not the word I would use.

[@chichan8424]

"Portland's MAX is slow" Boston MBTA rider "you have a running mass transit system? Jealous!"

[@RussSmith-xu6kd]

Absolutely NEED a tunnel across downtown Portland as you recommended!! There are enough other lines on the surface to cover the other needs (plus your obvious Portland Streetcar take over option). PLEASE forward this to the Portland MAX fools who don’t understand what they NEED!

[@ScottAtwood]

I feel like San Jose’s lackluster LRT system could benefit from exactly this sort of downtown cut-and-cover tunnel for much of the same reasons. The downtown section is extremely slow, as it has lots of intersections, no signal priority, runs through a pedestrian and transit mall, and has multiple tight 90º corners.

[@michaelzedd6492]

San Jose's light rail through downtown is uniquely slow for a street-running system because the tracks run on the sidewalk rather than on the road. It's frustrating to see other light rail systems such as San Diego's travel much faster while street-running since it's not constrained by the sidewalk. That being said, there's apparently some talk about building a cut-and-cover downtown tunnel from VTA. I have little hope that it'll ever come to fruition (it is VTA after all), but they have added it to a long range transit project list.

[@adithyaramachandran7427]

This is exactly the problem with VTA. It runs at surface level through downtown but mainline rails away from downtown. It can hit 65 MPH between Tamien and Almaden valley which is honestly as fast as regional rail. But it slows down to a crawl from there to intel. I think the parts of the VTA system that are regional rail compatible should use Stadler Flirts from the Caltrain corridor, while the downtown track should be a light rail loop.

[@stazeII]

As a Portland native, I agree. It’s also why the max is limited to two cars (distance between blocks). Digging the west side tunnel was a big deal at the time. But given deferred maintenance with max, not sure a tunnel would be feasible. :(

[@spleenwurst]

If you are going to tunnel the central section, why not go for automated metro on the red line? It appears to only have two level crossings in Beaverton and five near the airport. The currently interlined blue and green line sections can cross-platform interchange with it.

[@PNWElevatorAviation]

I'm from Portland & I've been thinking the same for months now!! They needa make this underground. It'll help keep the traffic flow as well as elevated that doesn't disrupt roads especially the busy ones. Again, if they put it underground, that'll improve car traffic & train traffic 100% & so that way, no more fare evasions & less wide ass open stations. They even get blocked by parades

[@DurinMephit]

I believe it's worth talking more about the proposed stop at Union Station. Portland lacks a proper transit hub; light rail goes to the airport and connects with WES in Beaverton, but does not provide convenient access to Amtrak or Flixbus. Seattle, in comparison, has the International District where local and long distance transit options meet up. If Portland addressed this gap, you could get from Wilsonville all the way to Northgate entirely by land transit with just 3 line hops and almost no walking!

[@vapour_xs9235]

This is entirely true!!! I've been wishing for a system like this to be implemented into the MAX system for AGES!!! I've heard that there's been talk about it, but it definitely needs to happen sooner than later.

[@EdwardM-t8p]

The first successful light rail project in the US after the Second World War was the Riverside branch of the MBTA Green Line in Boston which tied into an existing trolley tunnel. The only drawbacks were that PCCs were used, and the planners underestimated ridership which caused the transit authority to abandon and remove the Watertown branch and half the Arborway branch. :(

[@jsward96]

As someone who works for and was a student at Portland State, I would love if the blue line went there through a tunnel. Getting the current blue line to pioneer, then switching to the yellow/green, is significantly slower than walking from Goose Hollow.

[@toadslick]

Another issue with our Max is that it is inexplicably delayed in any kind of adverse weather. When it's too cold, the trains have to slow down because the tracks warp. When it's too hot, the trains have to slow because the overhead lines sag. The result is passengers being stuck in the sweltering heat or freezing cold for 30 minutes or more. I've never heard of other LRT having these problems, and we have relatively mild weather compared to most cities.

[@FerryTerminal68]

This definitely happens in other cities (I've been able to find reports of similar incidents in Minneapolis, Sacramento and Pittsburgh). Phoenix does not have the sagging catenary issues because the wire tension is calibrated with high heat in mind, and temperature fluctuations are generally less extreme. Trimet could absolutely improve their deicing/snow clearance protocols, but the heat issues are sadly just an issue with catenary wire itself. The average temp for summer months in the region has been increasing since the system opened too.