The Post JavaScript Apocalypse - Douglas Crockford

This is about JavaScript, clutter, purity, and thoughts on what should be in the language that comes after, assuming that we all live that long.
ConFoo: confoo.ca

[@kapral18]

"The web is cluttered and full of errors" - Melisandre Crockford

[@sieve5]

From the standpoint of a senior in computer science in university, EVERYTHING THIS MAN IS SAYING MAKES SENSE!

[@MichaelQuad]

no

[@rodrigodrk1]

Thank you for subtitles!!

[@tormentoxx]

What a wonderful talk.

[@evroza]

Awesome talk

[@juancpgo]

I think names with spaces might make the code less readable, because a name will be spread out across the syntax instead of compacted. I think a name is a lexical token, so it makes sense that we should read it as a single chunk-that way we're making sense of the code in terms of its syntax. (Unless we're really talking about a totally new way of programming in which what I'm considering would become irrelevant.)

[@MichaelQuad]

new language may reuse "use strict" to define more options. for example "use strict, es6, blockscope", it is simple and dont create "holywar" for imperative VS functional style. when you see "use strict" you have to comply to this or just choose alternative project. let the functionality battle the style, because the style battle alone will never end.

[@KevinMcGinty]

All we really need is a new JS framework :D

[@JBoku]

:D

[@EnCey2]

Ugh, all your frameworks are clearly inferior. I'll make a new one that does everything right and makes the others obsolete.

[@chrisgodberartist]

There is only so much time to spend in this mortal realm. DAMN YOU!

[@MichaelQuad]

do you have any ideas? let's build a ui-library with new tools

[@valvlog4665]

More JS frameworks are all we need to fix it. Suggestions welcome. #1 Splatto #2 Wodo (World of data objects) #3 ZeusOs #4 Kirk (the final framework)

[@vdoland3216]

wow everything he said make sense!! - lopoking forward to the next whatever language - clojure lol

[@quintencabo]

Also you could make the null object thing with a proxy right?

[@fardelian]

I have scheduled meetings to decide whether a parameter should be in the headers, the URL, the query string, or the request body. Please send help!

[@Sindoku]

I love the Pied Piper shirt!

[@MarkEntingh]

We should get rid of the double-quote because I rarely use single-quotes inside javascript strings, but I definitely use double-quotes for things like HTML attribute values & other programming-related things. I always use single-quotes to wrap around my strings for various reasons.

[@DriveandThrive]

Not a good idea. Single and doubles are sometimes interchangeable but they can signify differences as well in certain situations.

[@younghoseo1782]

I'm not so sure if this guy was talking about tab key or the tab used in programmimg, but I always use tab key whenever I write an essay. It's used for indentation

[@rolfnoduk]

Youngho Seo the tab character, specifically ascii

[@fennecbesixdouze1794]

Names with spaces would not be good. Imagine a language where you have nicely expressive syntax using things like "... if ... else ..." ternary operators or Python-like boolean conjunctions etc. If you have spaces available for names you could easily want to write out exactly that expression for your name. Now suppose later you use that same expression. The algorithm he proposed will use that as an identifier because you've assigned to that name. For example: ``` from my functions import fun1, fun2, fun3, do something to from my favorite constants import a1, a2, a3, a4 x = fun1(a1) y = fun2(a2) x or y = x or y do something to(x or y) fun3(x or y) x = fun1(a3) y = fun2(a4) fun3(x or y) ``` The final use of "x or y" will be interpreted as the name in the block above rather than as the or of the new x and y. The main problem is that if you say the compiler gets to figure out what the longest string that makes sense as an identifier is, it introduces really bad non-locality issues. I have to keep in my head the entire source code so I can remember all the possible identifiers at any point in the program to be sure that some syntactic expression I'm writing wasn't used as an identifier previously. Good programming languages need good locality. I want a language where I can look at a single line of code: `x or y` and I can be certain what it is: x is an identifier, y is an identifier, and this is the result of using the or operator between x and y. I might not know what x or y are, but I know what this line of code is doing. If identifiers can have spaces, then I will no longer be able to figure out what this line of code is in isolation.

[@raul.mihaila]

Actually it is possible to create a Null object in ES6 such that if you try to access a property you get the Null object itself: const Null = new Proxy( Object.freeze(Object.create(null)), { get() { return Null; } } ); Null.x.g.w === Null;

[@madarivi]

Oke but what does this returned null now return when you access it :)?

[@raul.mihaila]

I'm afraid I don't understand your question. Have some code to show?

[@trummelbach6065]

+Marius van Eck It does not return null. It returns the const Null.

[@chrisgodberartist]

HAHAHA that Silicone Valley scene was the funniest thing of all time haha!

[@bruslag]

Tab is very important to systems with Hebrew, Couse yoo can mix sentences which have both Hebrew and English words

[@IronCandyNotes]

1 tab = 4 spaces (tab-to-space enabled) First law of pythoning

[@theshermantanker7043]

You can also used brackets in python I think, it compiles to the same thing (Python compiles to opcode for the interpreter)

[@IronCandyNotes]

@@theshermantanker7043 You can use semicolons too and write most stuff on a single line but you better have an exit plan for when people find out

[@MarcusHammarberg]

That guy on the poster... I think it got me about 20 times during the prezi... "Oh, two presenters now?" No... not this time either

[@DarrinCullop]

It's not a poster. He's helping hold him up. He'd fall right over if that guy wasn't there.

[@DriveandThrive]

Tabs are a gift from god. Whoever invented it should be mentioned alongside Edison and the Wright Brothers

[@quintencabo]

Tab reduces file size though

[@chetansanghani6284]

Is that a pied piper shirt?

[@solid8403]

yup

[@newyorker6669]

It’s awesome lol I’m glad more of us programmers can get a kick out of that show lmao

[@SamuelKarani]

anyone else like the idea of pre/post contracts for functions?

[@wilsongaturu134]

17:36 I thought Object.assign returns a new object and doesn't mutate the original object?

[@paschalobba4001]

It doesn't deep copy.

[@b43xoit]

It takes two arrrrrrrrrrrghuments and mutates the object pointed to by one of them.

[@coolworx]

Post = Add a new document Put = Replace an existing document Patch = Edit an existing document.

[@b43xoit]

JS has not only `null` and `undefined` but furthermore `false` and `NaN`. Lisp just had NIL.

[@captmcneil]

I always thought single quotes in JS made sense because you write the occasional html or xml, and you don't have to escape the attribute double quotes in them. I can't remember last time I had to escape an apostrophe. Pick one and go with it. When in doubt, do what the libraries you use do (well, except for the crappy ones like bootstrap). I don't really care about tabs vs spaces or curly bracket positioning either, I just want everyone in a company to be forced to do it the same way.

[@davedoublee-indiegamedev8633]

Nowaways just use backticks for JS.

[@911madza]

the title should be "how long will it take for WA to take over?"

[@45mitul]

Is there a transcript I can read?

[@thecoug36]

kzbin.infotimedtext?v=NPB34lDZj3E&lang=en

[@thecoug36]

There's also a "Transcript" link under "More" on the desktop site

[@45mitul]

Thank you!

[@IWD40I]

Tokimeku desu ka?

[@RADIOSCATRACHASUTAN]

I dunno, singles quotes looks better en javascript code, double serves better in htm markup.

[@yiwanzhou8927]

He wear "Pied Piper" T-shirt :)

[@brunolm7]

I don't like the proposed syntax and the names with spaces thing. I like the way JavaScript is moving. I do agree with other things like spaces over tabs, pure functions, ...

[@ryan.winchester]

this is why i like functional languages. i liked most things he said except for the names with spaces. underscore all the way 😆

[@jernejsila]

Pied Piper T-Shirt! :D

[@chrisgodberartist]

Tabs!!! (Falls down stairs)

[@DriveandThrive]

Space 4x space 4x space 4x...an apocalypse indeed

[@danh5637]

Web assembly. I don’t know why people in JS don’t see what’s going to finish them.

[@KerryOConnor1]

I dont think the demographics of worldwide js devs and future C family web devs overlap very much though ppl use js largely because it's easy, not because it's powerful

[@ToddPressleyy]

Wat? If you feel so strongly, please elaborate... Taken straight from webassembly.org: "Wasm is designed as a portable compilation target for programming languages, enabling deployment on the web for client and server applications." The important bit being "compilation *target*" as opposed to "Javascript (or any other language, for that matter) replacement." Also, "people in JS" is, what, like 99.9% of people entering/operating within our field? Not defending javascript, just skeptical of (yet curious about) your point.

[@theshermantanker7043]

Not sure why PHP isn't used on front ends either, the Zend Engine isn't difficult to embed and now even has a JIT Compiler

[@vedmarth]

Idea about variables with spaces is terrible, the code will be not readable, for machine it's ok, but when you read a sentence variable then function call, then some comparison, that will be a joke: some slaves list[what slave is today + maybe some other slave].get me some beer().then(maybe a beer => beer checker.is this a beer(maybe a beer) ? personally me.drink beer and enjoy(maybe a beer) : personally me.shout on the slave(some slaves list[what slave is today + maybe some other slave]))

[@Unitazy]

LOL @ T-shirt

[@saysthetedd]

So for the first 20 mins he basically just describes Elm?

[@markomacek920]

Apple better not remove Tab key after Escape... anyway, standard tab size = 8 (I use spaces).

[@FezVrasta3]

You meant 2*

[@chimmihc1298]

I think you actually meant 3

[@knottheoffice]

Hey didn't say get rid of tab key, he said get rid of tab character. Tab key would still do whatever you configured your editor to do with it.

[@smarthouse-learnprogrammin4309]

Removing clutter - is the most important way to improve your coding style. And yes, JavaScript is not this easy to clean up. Ruby - is what we all need to look up to.

[@theshermantanker7043]

Rust too EDIT: Ruby is the only modern language today still using an interpreter without an Intermediate Representation

[@DriveandThrive]

Null and undefined are not the same. My turn to be pedantic. They provide specific information that a generic bottom value wouldn't and it is helpful information so I must disagree

[@DenisKanchev]

Perl 6

[@MarkEntingh]

That photo of the guy with the tight pants in that poster behind the speaker is extremely annoying & distracting & offensive haha

[@wookidoo]

Feels like I'm wearing nothing at all, nothing at all, nothing at all...

[@raashidkhan1]

@anupam kher’s doppelgänger

[@hybrisCole]

rust

[@llIllIlI]

// V.A.R. var varEquals = 'View Angular React';

[@133289ify]

WTF what if I want include " to my string!

[@ryan.winchester]

@45:28 re: distribution -- ever hear of erlang or elixir?

[@bcassol]

erlang is king. Go takes a different approach and is nice too.

[@robertzeurunkl8401]

I don't believe in getting rid of things just because they are not "pure". Date() is a useful function. It's not *meant* to be "pure". I don't care if it is pure. I want the date, not "purity". Same with several others of these objects/functions.

[@diegocfq]

Did you watch the whole thing? Because it seems you didn't get the joke (not even when he mentioned: get rid of users)

[@vdoland3216]

perhap clojurescript

[@rja421]

I am going to form the Tabilan to root out these space key worshippers.

[@TheNewton]

Tabs are just wannabe spaces, allahu aspacekeybar

[@bavariantrawler]

Boo on getting rid of tabs.

[@bloodandbonezzz]

If only Go Lang had a DOM manipulation, it would have been the perfect replacement for javascript.

[@JoseNavas]

minute 27:44 haha

[@alexweej]

whoops, ligatures :)

[@subvind]

The Channel JavaScript Apocalypse

[@tanotoscano7579]

Clojure stack is a viable option in the post javascript apocalypse, it covers most of the points discussed in the talk

[@vinapocalypse]

I think this video is interesting but suffers from "Whoever does not understand LISP, is doomed to reinvent it" which not Greenspun 10th rule of programming but it could a corollary to it

[@MarghoobSuleman]

Why are we discussing this?

[@amatiasq]

As always Chrockford drops some good ideas and tries to mix his personal opinions inside.

[@tormentoxx]

He justified his "personal opinions", so it's not just saying "this should be this way just because I like it". That's how it works.

[@andurilan]

BS. The core of most of his justification in all his videos, not this just this one is, "because". Go back and look and all of his talks. He is almost always on the wrong side of history when it comes to ECS/JS. Classes in ES6/7 show this, Async/wait proposals show this, and I could go on and on.

[@onlybrad8434]

actually 0^0 = 1. So saying 0^n = 0 is not true

[@onlybrad8434]

dafuk are you smoking ?

[@SimonBuchanNz]

A bit late a reply, but actually no: 0**0 is undefined, like 0/0. 0**n = 0, but n**0 = 1 and you can get to literally any other number you want too.

[@DriveandThrive]

Let vs var sure but again having both serves a purpose in niche situations where you might want the global scope. Just leave everything alone. Coders are used to being pedantic but don't let that harm the tools we use.

[@davedoublee-indiegamedev8633]

Nah, var was a mistake. We should just never use var; there's never a situation in which you want to use var and can't do it somehow else.

[@cdiddy4242]

Totally disagree about getting rid of tab. Tab reduces key strokes thus more efficient thus bringing me more delight. Aka meets the criteria and the debate rages till the end of time.

[@MichaelQuad]

it doesnt matter, really. text editor handles number of key presses

[@onlyafriend]

tab is alt method, use webstorm you wont need use key strokes

[@szymontoda3155]

map tab to 4 spaces so 1 action one keypress. But navigating thru 4 spaces with arrow keys is different story. Just use .editorconfig...

[@JeremyAndersonBoise]

Chris Salvi not the tab key, the tab character. Totally different things.

[@llothar68]

The only solution is to push webassembly to Apple and MS and make other languages available in the browser. I would love to get a frontrow seat on the Javascript apocalypse

[@fer86bd]

Please make a conference in getting rid on non international unit sistem units. They are never 10based, they never even fit between each other in integers! jajajajajajajaja

[@artgreg2296]

wasm wasi rust

[@tomaskraus47]

The TAB key on keyboard is very useful. The TAB character in a character set is pure evil...

[@winfjacobs]

Douglas Crockford is the Louis CK of software development.

[@tormentoxx]

Why the fuck would you downvote this talk? I don't understand people.

[@soozler]

I like watching his talks, but he is kind of an ass.

[@DominicVictoria]

Me ~ Languages aren't the problem. It's people that uses it. It goes in couple of ways. If it's the proper language for the job and you're having a hard time fixing its code. It's the people that wrote it. If the language is inappropriate for the use, it's the people who used it. Edit- If the language sucks... it's just the language's fault. Jk, it's the f people who wrote it.

[@IanBussAudio]

unamused.gif

[@robertzeurunkl8401]

I used to respect Doug. But now I hate him. LONG LIVE TABS!!!!! But, seriously, I don't want to you to hit return, and then 4 space bars, or 8 or 12 spaces to get the next indent right on every single line.

[@InfiniteRain_]

Do you program in MS notepad? All the modern code editors have a functionality that would insert 4 spaces when you press a tab. Shift+Tab will remove 4 spaces. This is such a non-argument, Jesus Christ.

[@chrisgodberartist]

Goodnight off to go watch Programming is Terrible :/

[@rowdyghatkar]

I never knew that Anupam Kher is an expert in JS...

[@konung5]

So use Elm basically ... You are welcome. I just saved you 45 minutes of your life

[@derekfrost8991]

I use zenlisp for personal use, it's a pure dialect of scheme. No-one would use that in production, but what about a functional scheme with a ref, like in sml? Until that happens I agree, Elm is the best I've seen, tho I'm not very good at it.. :)

[@mrbigberd]

More like SML than Elm. General purpose side effects and optional, structured mutation means SML can scale both lower and higher than Elm and can adopt additional paradigms easier if needed.

[@ilovecomputers]

Let me play devil's advocate and repeat what another tab supporter told me: "a tab is only one character, so less wasted bytes in the code, and it can be rendered however anyone likes. People who like the wide open spaces use 8, others like the compactness of 2." Also, if we're going with the logic of what we _can't_ live without, then we should get rid of double quote instead of single quote because a double quote is made up of multiple single quotes in the same way a tab is made up of multiple spaces.

[@MateMagyarM]

You can't get rid of spaces, that's the problem, and for quotes, in English, single ones are not ideal. The idea is to just keep one. In 2017 everyone should use autoformatting, and it the fact which character is used for indentation should be transparent to the programmer. I also mostly work on a code base that uses tabs, but when you say you can change the tab size, you are kidding yourself, especially in a large codebase , with a lot of people, indentation is often extended with spaces, which completely brakes if you set tab sizes anything other then 4.

[@starflow90210]

cuz we're still in the 80's and have to care about bytesize of code and minifiers weren't invented

[@EnCey2]

Darn, if only our IDEs had parsers that understood language syntax and could render a single space as being 2, 4 or 8 wide depending on user preference, so that it effectively behaves like a tab when used in certain language-specific positions of a program.

[@chrisgodberartist]

Javascript Christ who cares. Write it clean and efficient. That's my aim, this kind of "Anal retentive" approach to coding sure kills it for guys like me who've always tried to approach it from a creative angle. At the end of the day who actually gives a fuck about this? My approach has always been break the motherfucker till it does something interesting.

[@andurilan]

Clearly at least 50% of people. :) Your clean code is another coders nightmare when your 6ft deep.

[@justfly1984]

I vote for 2 spaces instead of tab!

[@kavishdahekar]

4 spaces FTW.

[@cdiddy4242]

or you can realize every modern text editor can configure a tab to be two spaces...

[@chrisgodberartist]

Two Keyboards, two arms. Multi-task.

[@chrisgodberartist]

Tabs.

[@Sindoku]

Disagree. Tabs do spark joy!

[@michaellee3502]

The obvious next best step is Typescript!

[@alexk6745]

I think we should get rid of Javascript and replace it with F#. BTW, this is already possible to avoid Javascript and use Blazor. I would not say that I hate Javascript, but no spark of joy. With F# completely different story

[@Dragiux]

how about getting rid of javascript instead

[@DavidWMiller]

Instead of what'? That's the point. This couldn't be a revision of javascript, too many backwards incompatibilities. It would be a revised new language based on js without the issues.

[@superb7208]

The language he's proposing is hardly based on javascript. Most of the suggestions had nothing to do with javascript at all.

[@BoTuLoX]

There's already this language. It's called Elm. It solves JavaScript. And it solves React. And Redux. All at once in a simple language.

[@pablobarriaurenda7808]

why would you do that?

[@MichaelQuad]

does it solves "separation of concerns"?

[@133289ify]

Whatever! This guy is a troll. At least he's right about null

[@ReinPetersen]

Douglas, POST PUT and PATCH are not clutter - they have important distinctions that should not be tossed away.

[@133289ify]

This guy misses the whole point of Tab.

[@kolyxix]

I say we get rid off those pathetic frameworks and keep react and nodejs. If you can accomplish cool UI in react why tha hell do you need Anguluar js or vue js, backbone.js, ember.js, electron.js. And offcourse there are so-called tooling like wepback, npm, gulp, and babel. Just stick with to react, node, npm, and babel. keep it simple, make FONT END FUN AGAIN. All these flavor of the month front-end frame work is destroying front-end.