The Post Office Scandal | IEA Podcast

The Post Office scandal shocked the nation, but does it reveal widespread problems with public sector departments?
ITV’s hit drama Mr Bates vs The Post Office revealed one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in UK history. Over 900 sub-postmasters and postmistresses were incorrectly prosecuted as a result of faulty software which made it look like funds were missing. The drama highlights the ways in which their lives were ruined by a faulty computer system, a failing justice system, and a reprehensible government cover-up. The scandal has raised serious questions about a cherished British institution, as well as a fundamental problem with government ownership: lack of accountability.
Join Matthew Lesh, Director of Public Policy & Communications at the IEA, and Henry Hill, Deputy Editor at ConHome, where they discuss this grotesque miscarriage of justice, and what it says about the nature of government due process.

[@veronicabatteham9864]

What you can do is jail these people , because they never actually get punished and an example has to be made ,

[@tomricketts7821]

Normally they are promoted to the House of Lords

[@geralduk631]

The question yet to be asked: What was the underlying reason for the cover-up? We have heard that Post Office (POL) decisions were about “..protecting the brand”. This was essential as they must have been planning on privatisation and the £billions to be made as the major institutional shareholders did with the Royal Mail sell-off in 2013/15. The "value" of POL was in their USP, Horizon. So, Horizon had to be defended at any cost including wrongful convictions, bankruptcy, prison, even suicide.

[@Bloodnok49]

Labour was in power from 1997 to 2010 when all this mischief started. They were not going to privatise the Post Office. OTOH, Fujitsu acquired ICL which was a company kicked off by Tony Benn when Labour was in power in 1968. ICL had established tentacles in government departments which doubtless made it attractive to Fujitsu to take over. The Postal Services Act of 2011 allowed for 90% of Royal Mail to be privatised (with 10% of shares offered to staff). Until privatisation, Royal Mail was part of the Post Offfice. Protecting the Post Office brand was of importance under Labour because it was a cheap bank and so its support operations needed protection as they had Labour roots. As you state, the Royal Mail was subsequently privatised and sp protecting the brand prior to privatisation would have been of critical importance, to ensure the successful launch of an entity where privatisation was under critical review. None of this excuses the evident corruption which is emerging. If anything, things were too cosy and it is the PO which should have been privatised, not Royal Mail - except, I suspect, civil servants and politicians knew the Post Office was hopelessly inefficient and riddled with corruption in its internal staff and associated IT supplier.

[@tomricketts7821]

And the people being crushed were only the little people not the elite and little people don’t count or matter to the elite

[@triggersw3350]

As i understand it.. Horizon cost a fortune. It wa designed for the DWP so PO could dole out benefit payments and pension etc. with a payment card system. But.. It was so useless that the DWP cancelled contract and walked away taking with them about 40% of the anticipated revenue to oay for Horizon. They desperately needed to attract new clients and couldn’t let on that Horizon was pants and so unreliable.

[@johngraham6181]

Perhaps the real problem here is the lawyers that edited unhelpful reports and drew horrendous fees for their services. Corporate law at it's worse. At any time they could have challenged Fujitsu and PO but they were quite happy to take the cash. And that has turned out to be £148 million which we know about.

[@doughill1945]

Please can you give an example of the lawyers that edited reports. Watching the Inquiry I can see prosecution lawyers were not told (disclosure) about Bugs etc. What is astounding is the decision to seek the recusal of Justice Fraser.

[@Bloodnok49]

@@doughill1945 The attempt at recusal was disgraceful. I doubt if we have heard the end of this, as there are another 2 parts of the inquiry to follow. If you have not watched it, it is worthwhile watching the evidence given on 30 November 2023 and 01 December 2023. I will say no more, other than that the Tribunal Chair took time at the start to remind the witness he could ask permission to seek the advice of a lawyer before answering a question.

[@Bloodnok49]

The real problem seems to be that sub-par Post Office central staff (not SPMs) and Fujitsu - and maybe civil servants as well as government ministers - seem to have become infested and then riddled with corrupt motives in order to protect an inefficiently designed computer system.

[@doughill1945]

@@Bloodnok49 Have seen most of the YT videos. However it was only yesterday I looked up the opening statement of UKGI. that put a little more perspective on some things . Amazing that several important matters were not shared with the full PO board. Will certainly not miss GJ,PV or AVdB assuming they actually all turn up

[@diorocks5858]

Jarnail Singh Prosecuting Lawyer for Post Office, research its horrendous

[@chairmanalf7856]

Having watched his testimony and according to him, it seems that he did absolutely nothing at all during this process apart from shuffle papers.

[@James_Bowie]

Lazy Governments everywhere are trying to get out of services delivery and dumping that onto the private sector -- where accountability is ZERO.

[@fatfrreddy1414]

criminally LAZY

[@carolynhaywood7701]

Considering how many people are involved in this cover up, people that are in positions of power, I doubt if any real justice will be done. I feel very sorry for all the Sub Postmasters because even if they do get compensation it won’t give them any real sense of justice. I will be amazed if anyone of these executives ,lawyers etc ever pay any form of compensation or go to prison.

[@MrDiddyDee]

Sadly I believe that is true, POL and the government will continue to drag proceedings out and fight any major prosecutions with even more of our taxpayers money. How many political or corporate scandals have led to prison for anyone at the top of the chain? What real justice is there for those involved in the POL scandal, or the Hillsborough or Grenfell disasters, if the culprits can simply hide behind the walls of a corporation or institution rather than as a culpable individual?

[@nickjung7394]

ISPs are next. How many people have been charged for things that they neither ordered nor received!

[@kathrynhobbs8874]

When the 1984 Education reform Act was coming in, and the NUT said there was not enough time to introduce it for that September, Mr Baker the minister for education said…well teachers have long holidays, we will change the rules so one week of the summer holiday will be given over to school planning,and all teachers must be there, checked by register. So MPs have even longer holidays than teachers have ever had….redact 4 weeks of their holidays and give them the time to do their job ..to OUR satisfaction

[@davidgay1z]

Here is the thing, apart from all the other aspects of this affair the role of Lord Neuberger in the Recusal seems to have escaped attention. I have therefore pasted the following ‘The role of Lord Neuberger in the recusal fiasco (Justice Fraser) should be investigated’ on as many KZbin articles as I could, about ten, but when I checked to see if there was any response I discovered they had all been taken down. This Kafkaesque episode staggers one at every turn, even when Big brother has been outed he seems to be still working away! I really want to know why Lord Neuberger interfered , if the recusal had succeeded the whole noble attempt at taking on the stinking system would have failed.

[@rockflowerful]

Can we really have confidence in governance any more. We read of civil servants who do not see themselves as impartial instruments of the political party in power. We seem over run with administrators at many levels, all with their own agenda and no accountability. In fact there is no accountability by those who rule us. Same in banking,business,universities NHS….No accountability. When things go wrong because of incompetence or greed…..no administrator pays a price. They get moved to a new job, often with increased pay etc. not one banker went to jail during the banking crisis. No NHS administrator loosed their job. Yet the regular worker tends to loose everything. As in this Post Office saga in the news at present. The directions came from the top in the Post Office but all levels in that business never questioned what they were doing at the behest of senior management and they should have done. We all have a responsibility to ….think…. about what we have been asked to do and question it to see if it is the right thing to do. Do as you would be done unto……is something to live by. But that sentiment has long gone, decisions are made , not for the greatest good but for the greed of individual advantage. Sad but true there is little honour.

[@RAHellemans]

Accountability of the state; It might be interesting to see how under others like France and EU do their governance auditing. This is done by a organisation part of the justice ministry called "Cour des Comptes". They independently audit government actions and makes public their finding and are independent of the politicians. I believe It should safeguard against mis functioning of government seen frequently in the UK.

[@peterchapman697]

The issue is not the faulty computer system, after all, all computer systems are faulty. It was the unwillingness to admit, either by Fujitsu or The Post Office, that a computer system is, as always, fallible.

[@7rich79]

Departments are certainly large to the extent that ministers don't know what's in their portfolio. What we're seeing in the Horizon scandal is senior levels in corporations also claiming to have little to no knowledge about issues in their organisations. However, we don't hear the same calls for private businesses to become smaller to get better oversight and accountability for their operations. One issue facing both public and private sector is the direct and indirect political and financial incentives that may lead to the prevention of disclosure of serious problems. This isn't a Tory vs Labour matter. It is entirely one of culture.

[@ianbarr5110]

This was teflon tony. He turned a blind eye to this crap system as he did not want to upset the japanese.

[@kurtgodel5236]

And what about your beloved Tories and their world-beating corruption? Teflon Toy's fault too?

[@wobby1516]

In my humble opinion the real problem is plain and simply dishonesty. When that happens there’s little one can do until they’re caught out, as is the case with the Royal Mail.

[@leftgrrl]

The Post Office (RM is a different organisation)

[@nickjung7394]

Presumably, imposing a prison sentence for stealing money from the Crown has set an interesting precedent. There can be no alternative to the UK imposition of a similar sentence on those employed by the Post Office and Fujitsu who also could be judged to have stolen from the Crown!

[@stevendornbusch9240]

After identifying the key factors in institutional defensiveness and hundreds of covered up miscarriages of justice, at 25:00 the attack on 2 emergency stairwells: 2 exits, is entirely the wrong analogy. I was shocked to learn this is acceptable in the UK. It leads to unnecessary fatalities, fire deaths. I understand there's no room nor money in many older structures. In my own USA, we've all learned Boeing Corp has been manufacturing pretty safe planes for almost 20 years. Ending decades of high inspection rates. Pretty safe isn't safe. No reason to avoid an uncomfortable truth, difficult or costly options, which leads us right back to the Postal scandal.

[@michaelgilday]

Wish someone in his party would seriously consider repealing most of the past forty years legislation and decide what is necessary from then on. At the same time get shut of all quangos then life would be far simpler as it used to be when I was young.

[@tomricketts7821]

It wasn’t it was that you just didn’t notice

[@diane4488]

In all the investigations I've watched, so far, it seems that the whole culture is dreadfully toxic. All the staff were very poorly trained, didn't understand the law, shirked their responsibilities, were, and still are, prepared to tow the party line, had very low morals, and no respect for honesty and truth, constantly lying. Also no conscience regarding the pain and suffering they were personally causing. That includes Management, Investigation Officers, and Lawyers. I suspect the Post Office would have terminated employment for any staff who asked questions, or suggested that they were doing things wrong. Those up the top seem deliberately corrupt, constantly give answers that are unbelievable, and obscure the truth! Not only has it been a highly corrupt business, for at least the last two decades, but clearly it continues to be. Their practices are evil.

[@PinPointEnts]

I agree with building regulations. Wheelchair accessibility is great and firedoors are all useful. If only 1 or 2 have Wheelchair access then it means the developer can raise the price to unfair levels. Refined Sugar is just bad for you and the less people that abuse it, the healthier they will be. But otherwise, great interview.

[@eegaugh]

I liked this interesting discussion. Audio quality is no doubt in the ear of the listener but for me the presenter's very high tech-seeming microphone rather let him down.

[@user-ki6sb1tx5z]

Quangos= perfect excuse for ministers to say, nothing to do with me So quangos suit them

[@bloggsie45]

It would seem that the word 'firewall' is unknown to all the management level people involved with the Horizon computer system. I wonder why? Perhaps they have all been sucked into the current 'lowest_tender_itis' pandemic? The irresponsible people involved in the mismanagement should have to purchase the needed hardware using their bonus money.

[@stp926]

Who funds the IEA?🧐

[@martinmcdonald4207]

IEA taking the high moral ground on anything is an oxymoron in itself!

[@jonathanbroadhurst963]

WOW around 11m in,,,, and it is said - the people taken on to do said job ? need around 1 to 2 plus yrs to be able to do said job ? no wonder we see the public purse being so easily missused, but in which case should not a few be in training just to cover the knowladge needed to be a VERY little awear/competent ? they are paid so highly from the get go, for the ability/skils/leadership they SHOULD show to get the job in the first place ??? this should be especially true in government where as we see the risk of failure, affects so many peoples lives and the wealth of the country ? I remember Matt Hankock telling prince Philip his job title and saying he'd no idea of the job he was in charge of,,, Philip was to say the least UNIMPRESSED at the dummy in charge of nuclear subs,, shook horror.......... there is no NO defence in a highly paid, important job for anyone in gov't or any job, to say they will take the money and learn on the job ,,, again especially with so much at stake ? and you talk of failure, when will we/gov't talk of success for all as bexit promised in this failing country

[@sparkyroots369]

Journalism didnt see Brexit coming and a TV show gets the drop on you BIG TIME over the Post Office scandal. Do you think you might be missing something in Journo School perhaps?

[@markknight3983]

Started off as a critique of the post office scandal and then went off tangent - regulation bad free enterprise good.

[@jamesprice4647]

It was bound to. The IEA and its allies / paymasters are the problem, not the solution.

[@steadfastandyx4947]

Mr, sorry, Sir Davey is still around.

[@jamesprice4647]

Such a silly comment.

[@hughbaker4997]

No it isn't, the excuse for a man is a turd!

[@neilsmith5762]

Grenfell fire still no prosecution

[@leftgrrl]

Irony of this from the IEA

[@janeteholmes]

Please Matthew get some voice therapy for your extreme vocal fry. It’s so unpleasant it makes listening to this conversation difficult. Otherwise an interesting podcast.

[@fatfrreddy1414]

yes...basic breathing tecnique would help alot..

[@mikejennings4938]

Ah really, glad you aren't on the front line of a war. My goodness those bombs are noisy are there any ear plugs