The Problem(s) with the Creating Community

[@wlesshfc]

yooo!!!! this turned out so well!!!!!!! it's really something we need to address in this community, since we're not gonna get anywhere if we keep going down our current path. our mindsets need to change along with the game's artistic and technical capabilities so we can better creating standards as a whole.

[@dimension5528]

hi wolfless

[@MikeyOnKeys]

absolutely right. The whole idea of CP gives me anxiety and makes me not want to create because I think I’m not good enough even if I try.

[@Dan1el2563]

no

[@Lfritz]

A lot of points in this video would have been better argued if you spent more time with visual editing. There's a lot of ambiguity to what you're saying here with words like "generic" and "artistic," and you never really explain what you mean when i comes to these terms. I'd suggest showing levels that reflect that generic style you hate so much.

[@drewdacanay2242]

yeah i think showing examples of levels that reflect the generic or weird styles would make the vedio better because couldn't really understand what he was saying.

[@norkbork]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z3LYgYuLrL6Dq9k

[@prod_indiana.]

Ayyy fritz

[@squizaaard]

What is the purpose of linking cement. Are you saying that cement is an actual artistic level or are you saying that its wierd for the sake of it?

[@myntifresh6557]

NotQuiteNyX cement sucks

[@ozzelozzel]

just my thoughts - i dont think that most people create these levels just for cp, but because they actually enjoy creating them, not everyone can, wants, or has enough experience to build a level more substantual than that or a masterpiece. also i think building in a mono style is quite neccesary for most creators to develop there own stlyle, which would take a whole lot longer when building in a non-mono style, other than that i agree with your other points, gud vid.

[@cnisp7198]

I disagree. average level in featured tab is just straight up shit. and monogenre is just weird.

[@oasisx722]

I agree with this, ozzel, people should be able to have fun creating whatever they want to create

[@cnisp7198]

@@oasisx722 nah. creating for fun is well, fun but when creators become selfaware, they just do stupidest and shittiest shit ever to get cp.

[@ozzelozzel]

just bruh do you mean generic lvls or novalty stuff like 1.0 lvls ?

[@goodname7613]

@@cnisp7198 i mean yes they are shit but we can't really infer the creators intentions with the level from the level alone (ie. them sending an artistic message or developing their style as mentioned above).

[@Loltad]

This video resonated with my creating story quite a lot. I used to create nine circles levels weekly back in 1.9, knowing essentially nothing of the ins and outs of the editor. Entering 2.0, I had very little understanding of how to make a good looking level, despite my knowledge of the functions within the editor. Throughout 2.0 I altered my creating to adopt to styles I liked, however my creations ended up looking very ugly due to poor block design and coloration. After my failures in 2.0, i slowed down once 2.1 released, and began releasing 1-3 levels a year while focusing more time into developing a style of my own. I eventually reached a point where I found myself with dedicated people who supported my creations, this motivated me to try for some big time megacollabs. One collab in particular that truly pushed me was Abyssal Extinction. When it was announced that there would be a contest for creators to build in AE, i jumped for the first chance i got. However, my creations were simply not up to par, and i ended up spending about a month working on my block design and color use to perfect them. I eventually created a design good enough to get into the level, however my part was relatively lackluster and i left the collab. I don’t regret that experience though, as that month long period of relearning the editor was what allowed me to push myself to my first feature. It took upwards of 80 levels total before I created my favorite creation yet: Starlit Smog. SS was and still is the best piece of art i feel I’ve produced for this game, however the level is not even close to being perfect, and is very messy as well. I realized SS was not fit for a rating, and it sent me motivation to create my first featured level: Bad Trip. BT is a culmination of most everything I’ve learned in my ~5 years of creating, and appropriately was my first feature. I’m glad I’ve had such a journey through creating, as it’s shown me what i value in this game, and more importantly it’s taught me life lessons of persistence and expression. So as a non-popular creating veteran i can say this video perfectly describes why i do not enjoy featured levels anymore. The community needs to realize that the best quality in a level is care from its creator.

[@aty4991]

A lot of what you said makes sense, especially if you look at Geometry Dash as an art form. My issue arises with the claim “we should keep our standards in check.” You’re referring to how the mindless featured levels that don’t have thought put into them shouldn’t be praised as amazing levels. And that I totally agree with. But people need to understand that there can be multiple kinds of good levels. If the community’s perception of a good level is “everything needs to have the detail and moving parts of a Xender Game level” almost every level will be a bad level. Every good level does not have to be a painting. You can have the best looking level in existence, but if it doesn’t have the gameplay, I’ll probably just watch a video, think “hey that looks cool” and never play it myself. Plus, the more objects a level has, the fewer people can enjoy it. You mentioned RobTop catering to kids with the featured tab by featuring the soulless levels. He’s catering to his huge player population on mobile devices because gigantic object size levels don’t run on those devices. If there were more levels that focused on a mix of gameplay and detail instead of detail at the expense of gameplay, those would (hopefully) get featured above the soulless levels. Basically, don’t let the raising of high standards harm levels or the community that makes them.

[@zBubbles]

This video is really well put together imo and touches on a lot of problems that I have about creating in GD are as a whole. Well done, dude

[@she3rlucks600]

Jonathan gd is a perfect example of someone who doesn’t care about cp.

[@Anxmaly666]

Don't forget Krmal and Para

[@super6070]

@IAmFeder BASED opinion and liked your own comment

[@flyingsubmarine67]

Samifying too, he put 3,5 years of effort into one level so he definitely does not care about cp

[@zInslanex]

I think you are really underrated,you deserve more subs

[@neigefeu__]

There are too many levels these days that look exactly like one another

[@eetu54]

Acu is a difference

[@sazzy005mapping5]

Like nine circle levels

[@Anxmaly666]

I focuse more on gameplay than decoration in levels, if rhe gameplay is generic and boring i often don't finish the level.

[@Anxmaly666]

@Yurin yeah that's the annoying part about it, I wanna grind levels but they're so buggy and boring :(

[@Idyllical]

I agree all these shit featured levels make it impossible to star grind :(

[@flockwiththetot4620]

I agree

[@parlusfrr]

i didn’t even know there was a creating community

[@Idyllical]

the bruh momentum

[@parlusfrr]

Obsco yep

[@sos5275]

oh hi parlus

[@cirnolurk]

oh hi parlus

[@OvercookedOmlette]

@@parlusfrr Hi

[@zaph7357]

Creator points is a big issue as some famous creators will make a level that look the same and then get constant CP’s and then unknown creators that have good levels wont get noticed. Rob has rated some good levels making new players get recognised, he has given out CP’s to 1.0 levels in 2.11 which is good but it rarely happens. Awesome Video :D

[@theperson2630]

Do you know how effortless 1.0 style levels have become?

[@KiziBro7]

Sad that the sweetdude effect is still something that is happening

[@Anxmaly666]

@@theperson2630 Actually as of now i have seen some pretty good 1.0 style levels, one called "Dance party" and the other is called "Havoc"

[@Lunaticboi956]

I'm just like, creating is a pain in the ass sometimes.

[@MoldyGD]

I’ve been enjoying your content a lot recently, and I did enjoy this. Although, that does not mean I agree with it. I do admit however, I am a creator which makes pretty basic levels and have been rewarded with 12 creator points, yet I know megacollab part creators that have no creator points that are MUCH better creators than me. You may think that myself and other pretty basic creators create only for creator points, however, that is not the main reason. I am something that I like to call a casual creator. I don’t try and make groundbreaking stuff and I know that. I create little things for fun. While I do like the creator points and my levels getting attention, that’s not why I create. I don’t think we should stop casual creators like myself for making levels even if they are deemed "generic," because we are ultimately creating for fun and I don’t think we should be punished for that. However, we should definitely encourage the groundbreaking creators that try and push the limits, because as you said, GD is also an art platform at this point. Not only this, but we kind of need semi-low standards. If the standards were to be raised significantly, newer creators won’t be able to get rated levels or meet the standards, which is really demotivating. And once again, not everyone wants to spend tons of time making groundbreaking levels. Also, as you touched on this a bit, most really good levels are object heavy and cause lag, and since GD is a game, it needs to be playable, hence why most of the levels in the featured section need to be playable without lag for most devices. We shouldn’t be discouraged to create what we enjoy just because we make pretty basic levels and have a lot of creator points. As I said, creators like me create casually. However, we still need those groundbreaking levels that really push the limits, and creators who make these excellent levels should be rewarded. And actually, for the most part, they are. While it may not be with creator points, it is usually with attention. Their creations will stand out and they deserve the positive comments and attention for their efforts. So in summary, some creators create casually, and some creators create to make better levels. We shouldn’t discourage one type of creating, since they are just two different play styles. Hopefully with the implementation of the 4 creator point so-called “legendary" rating, more creators can strive to make better levels and finally get more of a reward. I believe that’s what RobTop had in mind for the epic rating, I guess that just never turned out as planned. Ultimately, Geometry Dash is a GAME, and while it is a good platform to make artistic masterpieces, we shouldn’t make it solely for that. If I want to make simpler and basic levels, I am going to make simpler and basic levels. If someone wants to make above average levels, they should make above average levels. Great video, I look forward for more content from you!

[@norkbork]

i’m really glad to get a comment from someone like you that i’m “critiquing” or whatever since it gives me a really good perspective, and i can see where you are coming from now :p i definitely think standards can’t go TOO low as creators won’t be able to grow and start off but yeah i think the concept of a casual creator is interesting, i do still think tho that whether you do it for cp or not it still affects stuff like monogenre and style conformity from how causally you take it, because there are creators that take creating very seriously and the contrast there is i think why someone like me cares so much and you probably don’t that much thanks for the comment ;)

[@SupaCLUCK]

The reason why my levels take so long is because I try to think of original ideas that people will enjoy and once i have the ideas, executing them is hard for me.

[@Anxmaly666]

Same with me

[@Enderlink]

I agree with this video. I've had these views myself, and I'm glad someone decided to speak up about it. I'm not really a creator, but I do agree with a lot of this video, like the creator point grind problem for example. Good video Nork, you're videos are always simple yet great.

[@devv9501]

I really resonated with some of the points in this video and agree with them. I think what some people may draw from this is that the creators in question are inherently bad. I don't think that's what nork's saying. What I think he's saying is our standards are not increasing and we are just keeping our standards low for the sake of creators with a lot of CP. We need to keep increasing our standards steadily. If we allow these creators to stay on top and don't create platforms for lesser known creators, I think Geometry Dash will die sooner from its monotony. Obviously we don't have to rush into the future with enormously high standards, but we should stop giving more of a platform to those who already have and those who already have it should build the platform of those who deserve it. A lot of creators and players see the game as statistic-driven and your worth is determined by your CP, but they have to realize GD is more than that. While I've suggested a way for our community to do better (higher platforms give notice to lower platforms), I have a few ideas of what Rob could do. He might be able to create something like a "fan favorites" page on GD where new releases by smaller creators that have a generally good receptance can get their own category. This shouldn't be an automatic feature, but should be hand-picked by RobTop or mods to be featured on this "fan favorites" page. I think another good thing to do would be to start featuring levels on his youtube channel again, like he did earlier. Rob has millions of subscribers on KZbin and I think its time he uses his channel for the community. And because Rob is the developer of the game, a lot of children who find the game on the App Store can find the direct link to Rob's channel on the game itself. Then, when they see the levels he features, they will know what the standards for the game are. Lastly, though this might be minor, more channels like Nexus and Viprin should rise and start playing more levels and showcasing them on their YT channel. While this might not be the best content, it will help the community realize what the standards are to be featured on their page. If none of this made sense I don't blame you, whenever I have something to say I just put it out in a jumble of words and rely on Grammarly to fix my mistake. I'm just laying down my ideas, and though they could be bad propositions, it's a good start to lengthen the life of Geometry Dash and give it more variety. and also angy got dethroned from rank 2 :parak::brandon::emisv:

[@egidapalatina]

It's really interesting that you mentioned showcase channels such as Viprin. Back in the days in 1.9 - 2.0 days they were the dominant kind of GD channels, which shows that back then the community was much more interested in its creative side! We should have it be this way again honestly.

[@glow-rock]

I’ve been in the creating community for over 2 years now despite being someone who plays demons and doesn’t create. The points made in this video are great and they do ring true, except for the first point. I personally believe that people don’t just make levels for CP. If RobTop stopped rating these levels, these creators will still make their levels because that’s what they enjoy doing. Think about it this way, the player community plays demons. Sometimes they try to beat a level that would be their hardest and other times they will beat a demon that isn’t their hardest achievement. Now on the creating side of things, someone will make their masterpiece and then they’ll go back to their style. Excepting someone to create a masterpiece every time or make something that is better each time is like asking someone to beat their new hardest demon every single time they beat a demon. Despite what I just said, I do agree that people need to stop bragging about how many CP they have but there is nothing wrong with making something that isn’t inherently outstanding.

[@usdm704]

There are some really good points in this video BUT the majority of the video is all about what the level look like but in reality there are more aspects of what makes a level good for instance sync song and gameplay, for me personally I find myself playing good layouts very often not because the look good but because they are just good levels with good sync and fun gameplay (the things I personally look for in a level) so for me decoration is just an added bonus on top. I I also think that there should be a new type of feature (layouts).(but this will most likely never happen :(. )

[@ddDom1]

I can see where you're coming from and I'm happy to hear you're open to discussion. There's a lot in this video I disagree with and here's why: 1. Creators can do whatever they want. We're already at a standard where making a "generic" level will take quite a lot of effort. 2. Mixing creating styles/copying has always been a way for creators to find themselves, me included. Hell, my style has been based off zenthicalpha for god knows how long. Does it look similar in any way? No, not really. 3. Generic stuff exists in basically every community. There's no way to really force creativity onto everything, there's people who just want to have a good time. Look at the drawing community for example. There's so many things that look the same, and then there's the occasional masterpiece.

[@norkbork]

i definitely don’t have a problem with generic stuff if it’s made sparingly, my issue just comes in when creators dedicate their entire careers to copying other creators styles and only building with one technique because they know it will get results instead of branching out, i think it ruins our creativity as a whole, because once some people do this others are encouraged too because they have to keep up with the competition. take someone like suprain gd, they blatantly copy jonathan GD and get away with it cause everyone likes that style, while it’s not too big a deal since his stuff obviously takes time and effort i just wish creators would branch out and find their own creating style instead of just forever sticking to imitating one creators style. also, i beg to differ about our standards already being high; robtop will rate some pretty questionable things without batting an eye, and he’s really inconsistent about what he says should get rated. i can see your points though, thanks for the comment :p

[@norkbork]

i definitely don’t have a problem with generic stuff if it’s made sparingly, my issue just comes in when creators dedicate their entire careers to copying other creators styles and only building with one technique because they know it will get results instead of branching out, i think it ruins our creativity as a whole, because once some people do this others are encouraged too because they have to keep up with the competition. take someone like suprain gd, they blatantly copy jonathan GD and get away with it cause everyone likes that style, while it’s not too big a deal since his stuff obviously takes time and effort i just wish creators would branch out and find their own creating style instead of just forever sticking to imitating one creators style. also, i beg to differ about our standards already being high; robtop will rate some pretty questionable things without batting an eye, and he’s really inconsistent about what he says should get rated. i can see your points though, thanks for the comment :p

[@Dergy]

10:20 I love how him saying “Of Course” syncs with the background footage lol

[@agenty_gd]

Why do I almost always find myself agreeing with pretty much every point in your videos (except for minor details), finally someone has addressed the issue with the "original" levels you are not allowed to criticise even if they are garbage made in 1 day, they are always uploaded by clickbait youtubers which makes kids think they are good, while in reality most of them aren't even rate worthy, and some of them are getting rated like the ones Viprin uploaded, making an experimental level is becoming an excuse to put minimal effort into it which places these levels almost as low as generic levels, and it has been becoming a huge issue recently that most people ignore or are too scared to address because they see that the majority would disagree (and the majority is still kids which people often forget)

[@neutro1538]

Dude, I can’t agree with this type of mentality becoming the norm, this is, at the end of the day, a game and l think that levels can be made for whatever reason the creator wants, it’s not up to anyone to decide that cp grinding is bad because if that’s what the creator wants to do then they should be able to do that. Levels don’t always need to be a meaningful work of art, they just need to be fun to make and fun to play, if you enjoy cp grinding then fine, it just comes across as a little bit preachy (I know your not being so) to say that these types of players are bad when, no they provide robtop with content to keep the game going, there has to be a norm so other levels can stand out, if every level was different then it would be chaos. However it could be seen as an issue if every level became the design or modern style as that’s just boring, people copying is also an issue. But the most you can hope for in any level is that it achieves what it was ment to do, if that was to get cp, all the power to ya, if that was to get a message across, more power to ya. Yeah thanks for reading this if you did, to summarise, just create for whatever reason you want, as long as your having fun.

[@SilverOrSmthng]

agreed

[@visiblerat]

based

[@robianny]

W

[@yehman4721]

I agree with this video bc I highly value creativity, which is why I think people making things that look the same is bad and people that think they're immune to criticism are bad. Imo having things that look different won't be chaos because although they could turn out not that good atleast it isn't a random level with no personality and seeing something different in each level would allow people to see what ideas other people have. And being creative expands into other parts of life, so having the ability to show off what you can make and not completely ripping off someone is important. Also the reason why I think cp grinding isn't a good thing is because people that cp grind tend to put in less effort to make a good level that people will like and remember.

[@NotA_Bird]

There is definitely a double standard where a creator with few to none points could make a boring level for cp and get called out, but if it is a larger creator, the majority seems to be fine with it. I feel like there are also levels that are unoriginal and messy that get awarded. I do feel like I could work on this myself too, but it is nice when every other level isn’t glow or copied from Knots.

[@goodname7613]

I pretty much agree with everything in this video tbh. The only thing I'd like to point out is that we shouldn't be authoritarian in promoting these newer, more creative standards; when the entire point is to make current standards less important when judging a level's quality. Good video norbork keep it up

[@adhnj]

amazing video man, i really resonated with some of the points you discussed in this video. i think this is definitely something we need to change to overall enhance the community experience within geometry dash and perhaps even extend the lifespan of this game. i gotta thank you and wless for bringing attention to this issue using your already established platforms. just know it really means a lot to me and many others. :)

[@Bizaare29]

I can understand the thought process you had here. Felt like I'd offer my thoughts. (I know this video is pretty old, but it appeared on my recommended and I just thought I'd leave this out there for people to see) Probably the biggest issue I take with this video (and originality-based arguments as well) is the belief that every single GD level should be viewed as a work of art. I personally view the editor as a medium on which works of art CAN be made, but if we apply this video's logic then essentially Unnamed 0 by Player with a bunch of randomly spammed orbs becomes a work of art, subject to professional criticism. I'm not of the belief that no levels whatsoever have artistic merit, and therefore shouldn't be taken seriously, but on the other hand the belief that every single level should be viewed from an artistic lens is simply incorrect. Furthermore, you asserted here at 11:12 that a level with no artistic merit is pointless and has no reason to exist. I see absolutely no reasoning whatsoever behind this idea. I don't know about you, but every time I make something in the editor, it isn't because I'm trying to be the next Van Gogh. You may take issue with the fact that a majority of creators build simply for personal enjoyment and as a hobby, but the simple truth is that's the way things are. That's not to say that no one's ever had artistic motivations at heart; levels like Save As or White Space have established messages and themes conveyed artistically through the editor. It goes without saying that these works are therefore a form of creative expression, which you are clearly attempting to endorse, as am I. But proceeding to call all non-artistic levels pointless entirely undermines this whole belief. You and many other people claim that creators should not be required to build in a certain manner, or be shot down for building the works they deem fit to sufficiently represent themselves, which is entirely true. But by arguing that creators should only build through an artistic lens, you require people to build in a certain manner, and shoot them down from building works to represent themselves. You enforce expression while simultaneously endorsing creative restriction. It just reeks of a double standard. Like I said, creativity should absolutely not be restricted, and originality should completely be preserved. But telling creators to build a certain way and discouraging them from building in certain styles goes against every value you're attempting to preserve.

[@norkbork]

hey this is a rlly old vid so i won’t read your ful comment but i just wanted to say i do very much disagree with like almost everhting i said in this video and i’m only keeping it up for historic purposes, so chances are i agree with you :)

[@Bizaare29]

@@norkbork Alright man, sorry for the misunderstanding. Prob should have done a little more research before typing an unnecessary essay in the comments lol

[@norkbork]

@@Bizaare29 no what its all good!!! i havent said that anywhere so its totally legit ud think that and the reason im just not gonna is cause i already know like 99% of the flaws in my reasoning and i already rlly dislike this vid so

[@Bizaare29]

@@norkbork yeah gotcha, dw about it

[@Drezky1]

Gave this a listen past midnight in bed, and now I'm back listening to this in the afternoon while playing [SPOILER] for my next video. Both occasions were time well spent. I've been passionate about this issue for a long time now, just more so behind the curtains because I didn't know how to put it back then. 3 years later, and nothing has changed. And it's sad how the community of people like wless, cerufiffy, jayuff, etc is so microscopic compared to the people who vomit glow-spam over a bare layout 100 times. I do believe that more art can be pushed out of this game's underground sewers if we make this more noticed as an art form, for now, I'll just have to watch the same 4 levels over and over again on repeat. You're also really inspiring as an essayist, one of the few members of our community who can make videos feel like listening to an audiobook. Good stuff man!

[@SirHadoken]

This is pretty interesting; I'm not sure if these issues have gone completely unnoticed as I have most definitely heard complaints about all of these issues surfacing in other facets of the community and it's something I've been paying attention to. Principally speaking, while this is a really meritable perspective, it does have some complications concerning what I would consider the "duality" of Geometry Dash, in that it is both a media for artistic expression, and a video game. A priority of art and expression is to find your own voice and present something unique that is a soulful reflection of its creator, but a priority of video games is to have fun and reach goals/achievements. As much of a drag as it is for me to look at what is essentially the same exact level over and over again, I acknowledge that there is an achievement in this game for getting a creator point, and I realize that people who make that their goal are going to go about that by any means possible. In consideration of the changes proposed in the video, that raises the question of whether or not it's fair and just for us to restrict the way in which people are allowed to view the game, as solely a form of artistic expression as opposed to the video game that it also unquestionably is. I agree that artistic expression is far more valuable when it comes to making levels that feel like they're worth playing, but I don't know if it's fair to put an embargo on those who don't share that perspective. What would that make us? The funny thing about originality and emotionless replication of other styles is that I've already seen tons of mods address this, or at least have something to say about it. They all generally seems to agree that real effort and originality deserves more value, and that the alternative deserves less. You would think, then, that mods wouldn't be sending unoriginal stuff as often, since they have control over what they send. The wrench is that Rob has seemingly no issues continuing to rate unoriginal works. That makes a statement about how he wants to run his game, and that's a point where we have to ask ourselves if we respect that, and what we would even do about it if we don't. Rob would have to take action and say something publicly about this in order for the stigma to shift and for people to be on board with it; so long as he provides the path of least resistance, people will act like electricity and take it. Overall really interesting points that are present that are definitely talked about more than you make them out to be, but have no possible concrete solution. We struggle to come up with solutions because the problem seems unsolvable, solely because there are so many ways to see the game and Rob leaves it up to us as an audience to make that decision of how we want to see it, even though it will end up causing these kinds of problems.

[@agenty_gd]

Just show this video to RobTop then if you can, maybe he will stop rating so many unoriginal levels then, if not then just tell all mods to try to send less of them or something, sorry if I'm talking nonsense now because I'm obviously not a mod and I have no idea how it all practically works

[@terratom5268]

L0ng

[@oasisx722]

@@agenty_gd Rob raising his rating standards would most likely kill the game, as it would be much harder for new creators to get into creating if getting a feature is really difficult. Overall it would just kill the fun of the game for a lot of people.

[@huvarda]

In my opinion, the normal "glow style" and "modern" levels should be featured and epic should be harder to get, and reserved for artistic levels regardless of lag, NONG songs etc.

[@cactusmanfr6900]

For me you can just do whatever you want. If you want to farm CP, just do it. If you want to begin an art project, just do it. If you want to start a megacollab, just do it. The gd editor is a tool, use it as you want.

[@numptywizard972]

I want the standards of creating go up but I am also scared that people with stop creating at all because of the higher standards. Rob needs to raise his standards and raise the amount of cp given to an epic level to push creators to spend more effort on their levels.

[@AcoN0Five]

What really makes a good level for me, is theme and gameplay. The theme is very important, it has to give you a sort of vibe, that is also implied by the song. The theme has to be constant throughout the entire level to make it unique. Perfect example of this is Black Blizzard. Its visuals make the level have its own personality, a thing that makes it memorable. Memorability is the thing that is the problem with current featured levels. They dont have a theme, a standout feature, something to be remembered by. You forget them right after you beat them. As you mentioned in the video, they're all the same. I see gameplay often times ignored in the non demon levels, forgetting sync, having basic gameplay Visual quality doesn't matter that much to me as long as it has something unique. Taking an existing style and adding a little twist to it, to spice it up. The level rating should be a little more harsh, more aimed towards themes, originality(especially), sync, and gameplay. I feel you did a great job explaining your points in this video, but i also felt like adding my opinion right here. Cheers!

[@thatsmallcessna8300]

For me, I’m not going just for Cp. I feel like creating, for me that is, is a great way to express myself, and I love it for that! (Especially since I am not that artistic). I love making levels and see my gameplay and deco improve. I used to struggle for creativity, but now that I practice creating, I’m proud with how far I’ve come. I also love feedback! For me, I really want the people to have fun with my levels. Maybe I’m being a little selfish, but I create because it brings joy to me. Awesome video :)

[@cheersy2206]

The points in this video are so true and there’s one more point I have to add is that there are those kind of people that say their levels are a true masterpiece but they were made in about 5 minutes

[@sugargaming2505]

I am so pleased you managed to get the video edited, I kow it wasn't easy, thanks for the entertaining content as usual!

[@blableu4519]

That's why we need the legendary rating. Outstanding levels could have a deserved rating, good levels could be rated epic, and small creators could finally be noticed and featured without putting insane amounts of work into their levels.

[@cosmicle8417]

I do the lazerblitz style, and when i show or say that i do it, they always say "but that's from 2.0" and "try something else" but different styles from different updates can be used in 2.1, though people think that i'm being lazy, but you can do things that have been introduced in 2.1 in the lazerblitz style to update it (as i try to do) but some people think that the only 'recognizable style' in 2.1 is glow, so you have to only use that. good video tho

[@Reneryx]

I completely agree. I feel like creators with lots of creator points don’t care about their levels. Every day, I grind stars on 4-5 star levels, and I rarely play a level with good gameplay. It feels too unpredictable, which overall makes the level less enjoyable. If you make bad gameplay, then your level can be a 7/10 at best. Not to mention, of you were to show me a 4-5 star level that I played a week ago, I won’t be able to say the name of it, because there are like 7 levels that look IDENTICAL to it.

[@retaliqtor542]

cp grind wouldnt be a problem at all if it results in enjoyable levels ( im thinking about creators like ilunaire for example who consistently puts out good levels despite being simple , even empty at times ) . From my experience in the editor , it is very hard to build a full level , let alone one that would be unique and memorable , so in that regard i cant really complain about most levels looking like each other or lacking originality . As a whole i think the community gives enough attention to non-cp grinder creators ( im thinking about xenoteric or vrymer for example ) and receive a lot of appreciation for their works . Also , we should aim to make playtesting and feedback much more widespread in gd , as it would benefit everyone in the end .

[@norkbork]

yeah like someone like knots grinds cp but they actually make really good levels so there’s no problem, it’s just people that churn out meaningless levels that somehow get featured

[@MikeIce4SG]

If this keeps up, i bet future megacollabs would look bad

[@flashmichworld]

while i think this is a really good video overall I kinda disagree on one point. i think that mixing a bunch of other styles into one can be a great way to find your own style (which is how i did that), and is good more often than bad. I'd rather people draw from many styles than to only copy one.

[@norkbork]

fair enough! i personally am not a fan of the way creators mash styles together but if you managed to find your style by doing that then i guess theres times where it can be ok, i just think that the misrepresentation of styles and stuff happens too much and it kinda ruins the level imo, also creators nowadays dont really like to try to find their own style theyd rather just stick with copying other peoples styles, which i applaud you for not doing :p

[@goldeneragd7563]

I had been noticing that the average level quality had dropped, and that standards were too low for what they should be. At first, I thought this was my bias- the fact that could create things of higher quality, and that there were so many others that could also create Geometry Dash Masterpieces beyond anyone's imagination. So I shook aside the thoughts of this, but it later came to my attention, as Cybernetic Crescent came out, along side other amazing levels, such as Snowblind, Dream flower, or Trainwreck. I started realizing that there were worse levels, and you helped me understand more of what exactly was happening (Thank You). A problem I think that is fueling the generic levels production is certain largely influential creators. For example, DanZmen is a good creator, as you can see by his easier levels. Take DanZmen's level, "Less Than Three." It is an amazing level (a little old, but using it for example). Look at DanZmen's other levels,- many of which are n0t even half the quality of his potential. Certain creators that find success in this method of grinding cp seem to be, in a way, promoting that. Of Course, this is my opinion, and anyone feel free to tell me why I may be wrong or right.

[@randomporpoise]

Why is this so accurate, generic levels are still a huge problem

[@Xyle_Music]

You do realise that this is literally a game about a jumping cube, right? I understand your points, but you also need to understand that people just want to have fun and build how they want. Forcing people to be creative will dissuade the people who want to have fun in this game and make it more like a chore because they have to conform to this new way of building just to not get hate for being "generic" or "unoriginal" because they made something that's to conventional standards. I get that people need to raise their standards, but that could simply be done by being less lenient with what is rated, such as if a level looks off or choppy it wouldn't be featured. I think with this new idea in people's heads of "I have to be creative or I'll get backlash" is not good, and forces them to make stuff they might not want to. People will eventually start favouring creativity over quality and the standards will actually get worse as time goes on, and with everyone making creative levels, the creative levels will no longer stand out, which is the opposite of what you're trying to achieve. This is a game, not a job or a chore, just let people do what they want instead of forcing them to do something that you want them to do.

[@lahderainbowmika7545]

>Do you understand that drawing is just making shapes with a pencil? I think we all understand what you're trying to say, but for me, GD is a form of self expresión like any other. It doesn't matter if it is a simple game, it's time to change the shit that other People have been doing, improving Will only move us forward, and like I said in the first question, drawing is even simpler than making a level, but that doesn't mean that we wont try our best to make our artstyle better. And the same thing could ve aolied to any other form of art. Hope you understood the point, cya later!

[@chaselewis9618]

THANK YOU

[@parth_rx]

Stupid take

[@Xyle_Music]

@@parth_rx how is it a stupid take? It's literally a video game and it shouldn't be treated as anything else.

[@felixoofed5994]

As a new GD'er, I thought "Creating" was just to grind CP, Not that being so creative I tried making 1.0 / 1.3 levels to do just the 1st issue you mentioned, As i dive in to the featured tab, It felt like it is unfair to creators that make goodie lookie level as most of the featured styles are pretty much the same. i learned a lession checking the tab, creators are just mostly getting CP whether quality is on the priority or not and mostly people just add effects that doesnt look that pleasing (mostly 2.2 or something like defy) and people would be attached to that spesific creator, dont get me wrong it looks sick yes, but it just looks plain the more you encounter something the same and it is just what the featured tab is, this video really improved my motives to not copy styles that much and it is a blessing that i am not the only one that sees it like this

[@Anxmaly666]

Yeah you should see the awesome layouts I make, i spen time building them but because I'm not the best at decorating my levels never get that much attention and it really bothers me a lot

[@natebroadbent674]

I know these levels arent new, but i think gogo by alkali and r o s e by hazzr are prime examples of this

[@parth_rx]

An example of this is a creator named “agils” he got 60 cup from making the same level over and over again.

[@StallionGD]

I very much agree with the points made in this video. I always try and do something unique with my levels

[@snarlax5239]

Honestly I REALLY disagree with this video. To preface this I am a creator with about 26 Creator Points to my name so I feel qualified to speak about this kind of stuff. I feel that this video generalizes creators as always being cp hungry, which shouldnt really matter in the first place whats anyone to judge what someone wants out of their building experience. We've been in the 2.1 update for years and we'll be in it for longer. Eventually creating is going to stagnate. I understand if you think itd be nice if everyone could always make super original/quality work but its not how this game works. In this video you also make the claim that the community is pushing away creators and isnt giving enough attention to the people who do make original stuff, even though this is just false considering how successful/high-regarded people like Serponge and Rafer are. Plus your previous point about wanting more people to be original defeats your "original creators dont get enough attention" claim as the more creative and original people are the lesser itll be for them to stand out. Without those low quality levels you talk so bad about those originals levels wont be able to stand out at all. Those are just my thoughts.

[@RozzWasHere]

For me, the reason for not decorating is not only because of laziness, but my lack of creativity. That's why I always make layouts but not actual levels. I don't know how to mash those basic structures given by default into better and appealing ones.

[@norkbork]

creativity is always something that can be improved upon! its not just a natural thing, there are ways to get better at being more creative, and i actually have an idea for a video that ill probably make eventually that talks about how to be more creative in gd building :p

[@RozzWasHere]

​@@norkbork Oh really? I'll be looking forward to it then x)

[@angelinepatterson4138]

I didnt even know CP was a thing bc i never got a level featured. But i have to agree, alot of the levels really looked rush and the gameplay is boring

[@Anxmaly666]

As a small creator, I agree with you on this

[@scocat1944]

I think that the cp system as a whole has become pretty damaging in nature, people need to start valuing individual levels instead of trying to gain fame and popularity with a benign stat on their account, just my opinion but I think there needs to be a huge push to stop glorifying cp as a whole.

[@gmdjack]

I don’t know if any creators anymore that consistently put out low effort levels. I see creators in the featured tab that created a level that is similar to others but I never see that specific creator again. I might be forgetting a creator though so if you could give me a example of a creator that grids CP I’d appreciate that. Also please don’t think this is an attack on your opinion.

[@norkbork]

GMDJack don’t worry! like i said in the video i welcome comments that counter my thoughts as they expand my view of this matter as well. i’m sorry for not providing many examples, but a think a name that comes to mind is someone like Xcreatorgoal, ALL of their levels look the same and they all aren’t even good, yet somehow he gets all his works featured or even epic and i think it’s a prime example of what i talk about in the video. if you need proof just go check out all the levels on his account, it speaks for itself; if you need more examples i can find some for you :p

[@crawdeath325]

@@norkbork Xcreator copy ;)

[@tucan1309]

theres also the problem with supporting the new creators who are starting out, basically people give trash feedback because level didnt meet their expectations and making creators motivation go down

[@norkbork]

yeah i can see that for sure, i think its really hard nowadays to get into creating which i think is why a lot of creators just make these minimal effort levels for easy creator points because they cant actually find approval and recognition in the creating community since their standards are so much higher than robs and the overall outside communities. i definitely think the creating community needs to start giving more constructive feedback instead of just trashing on new creators, i think if a creator is geniunely trying their hardest but makes a sub par level its totally fine! my issue is just when creators mindlessly churn out levels that could have had so much more effort put into them but they are too lazy and just want creator points yknow

[@Lunaticboi956]

THIS. holy fuck especially early on, I kept getting some extremely hateful feedback that made it harder to enjoy creating. Even now, after I've gotten better as a creator, people still give me feedback that amounts to "this looks bad", and getting pissy with me when I respond negatively.

[@spoop7623]

This video is very good. I agree with almost every part. I have an idea that might solve 2 problems: Famous creators grinding out low-quality levels, and new creators gaining traction. A person that has no levels out could produce a quality level and have it rated. As that creator gets more levels rated, the standard for that creator could go up. For them to keep making rated levels, they have to start getting really amazing. This makes grinding CP no longer worth it, and allows for new creators to shine and get some attention drawn to the levels they make. Its very hard for new creators to actually get a rated level.

[@HJfod]

I commented a some of my points on wless's video, so I won't go too deep into those again here. At one point you said that little children won't understand or care about theming. I'm certain you didn't mean it like this, but I personally despise the notion that some groups of people are in some way worse because they don't care about experimental levels. I'm sure you didn't intend to bash children, but your tone came off as saying "these dumbass kids don't understand what's good" and personally, I don't believe anything like that for a second. Quality is subjective. *An artistic level is NOT better than a design level.* Moreso, a creator who makes artistic levels is NOT better than someone who CP farms. The reason is simple; Firstly, there's no objective standard for what a good level is, and secondly; Criticizing design levels and generic stuff for "not being artistic" feels sort of like criticizing a children's author for "not writing realism". Children's books in their very nature are not realistic, and thusly design levels by their very nature are not meant to be artistic. Their goal is not to make the player think deeply and question what the design in front of them is saying about the GD community. No, their goal is to look cool and be digestible for an average audience. *And I think that's fine.* I get the drive for more artistic stuff. I want more interesting levels, I really do. But at the same time, I don't think our standards are the problem. I believe our current creating standards are just fine. My reasoning is simple; **People who wish to create artistic levels will make them no matter what the standards are.** If we change our standards to favor artistry, I fear that may lead to a point were people make seemingly artistic levels without actually putting any artistry behind them, like you've already said is a problem. People will make an experimental level for the sake of being "weird", not to strive for artistic expression. And while I do think it's kinda silly, **that's still a valid reason to make a level**. One thing I totally agree with is that 'experimental' is not an excuse to shy away from criticism. Theming is not an excuse to make bad gameplay. _Unless,_ the theme calls for that kind of gameplay. Take Killbot for example. It looks and plays terrible. But when you take into account that the level is about a virus driving the user insane and nothing infuriates GD players more than bad gameplay and in-your-face shitty visuals, it's genious. This doesn't mean Killbot is immune from critique of it's visuals, because like I said, they're shit. What it means is that while from a design perspective, Killbot is terrible, from a thematic perspective, it's genuinely really close to the perfect level. I want more artistic levels, but only if it isn't at the detriment of design stuff. While GD levels can be and ought to be an artform, no other game facilitates making detailed and intricate design like this one. And also, **if every level is special, none of them are.**

[@huvarda]

I agree about most of what you said but Killbot is really fun to play (apart from the last ufo of course) imo

[@bracken8782]

Unfortunately, what i took from this video is “everything should become SAVE AS.” The problem isn’t anything you mentioned here, the problem is that there is an achievement for getting a rated level. Everyone wants the cp ufo, and with everything that you’re proposing here, that’s going to make what was already one of the hardest achievements in the game completely impossible for the editor-illiterate, like me.

[@Anxmaly666]

Yeah it painful to see this, with me being a small and pretty unknown creator who makes unique levels, I hate seeing people not realizing their full potential as a creator. So many levels, yet they all feel the same because people just want attention and cp

[@titanmesozoicgd6943]

Finally someone actually feels my concern for featured levels in video art form yay!

[@entized5671]

This video is well made as it fully addresses the issues that have risen over the last years and especially recent times, it also barely leaves any blank spots and isn’t one-sided or biased. Yet there’s one thing I want to point out. There’s been this "monogenre" topic and other creating "sins". While I don‘t think that you meant that, it sounds a lot like these are generally bad ideas. But they aren’t. You said it a few times but I’m not sure if it was pointed out enough to leave an impression for everyone watching this video; There’s nothing particularly bad about any kind of level in itself, it’s the creators attitude towards their levels. If the sole objective is to get creator points or recognition it’s not okay. However, if you make something for fun, you can do whatever you want as long as you enjoy it. It’s important to note that people need to know how style works, but if they just want to create something and don’t care about what other people think, it’s fine, too. There needs to be information about these topics, which this video provides but the first part of it applies here, too: The creator needs to enjoy what they’re doing, other aspects are cool if they’re covered but not a necessity.

[@norkbork]

if people make levels just for themselves and don’t care about what people think then i totally respect that ! i just think it’s when cp is the main focus that it’s kinda a problem for me yknow

[@entized5671]

norkbork that’s exactly what I was thinking :)

[@paletapayasofan]

Something I always liked about itr is how the few effects used in it are really subtle and might not even be noticed at first glance. I think replay value is a very overlooked element in gd levels and itr is just an example of one of infinite possible ways to approach doing that. wless mentioned in his pastebin that gd levels today are bright and flashy by nature, and of course those aren't inherently bad qualities, but too many levels are built in a way where they grab your attention using deco and effects centered around that "in your face idea" where it's enough to engage the average player and/or robtop while playing the level, but it doesn't stick with you afterwards or give you incentive to replay the level ever. These levels are rather prominent in the featured/awarded section and I believe they are also a large contributing factor to the creation landscape of gd feeling more and more bland and disposable, and these feelings I have also tie into the points you and wless made about the monogenre and such. What I'm ultimately trying to say is that I think considering things like the idea of replay value while making levels can be greatly beneficial to making standout creations that will help inspire the rest of the community to get out of this rut of oversaturation and blandness that the game is experiencing. Great job on the video btw!

[@norkbork]

YES replay value is awesome, being able to watch a level over and over and notice something new every time is such a great thing to have in a level

[@dashinking]

it'd be nice if there were some visual examples and listing of certain levels/creators cus I'm very uninvolved in the game's community for the most part sucks that the featured section is pretty bad sometimes but it really relies on robtop to care more and people to put more thought

[@norkbork]

yeah i realized that after uploading cause i suck at editing, for individual purposes if you want an example of a “weird” level that literally makes no sense and somehow is beyond criticsm here you go kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z3LYgYuLrL6Dq9k

[@petom3003]

I had an idea of this problem for a while now and since I'm a kid I dont go into to much detail but I understand what your trying to say people should try to make more unique and orginal levels instead of the basic modern/glow style levels get all the fame.this is why I like to watch nexus he hand picks interesting levels that catch the eye of many people in the community. That's the type of levels we need.

[@Anxmaly666]

Agreed

[@IronDizaster]

Honestly since the level building has bceome more and more complicated to do, while also taking much much longer than it did before, I feel that the editor should be updated to become alot less cluttered. A new player might be off put by the editor because as soon as you open it, there are already about 20 clickable buttons that have even more buttons inside them (not to mention half the help buttons that should help the creator by explaining what something does dont even work). And im not even talking about how many more things there will be in 2.2. I think if it was still 1.0 the editor would be perfect, but it NEEDS to be updated. Building good levels is simply way too slow of a process.

[@IronDizaster]

I think instead of robtop adding more buildable blocks and triggers and whatnot, he should focus on making alot of quality of life updates for the editor that make building alot faster and less tedious.

[@abc_4226]

i 100% agree this, but i'll add one thing: the thing is that only known creators gets liked and have many rated levels, and many just sucks. not like some little creators with great levels and ideas but nobody plays them, like TheXYgameII (who quitted gd) and people with low quality levels but just want some attention, like XautogamerX, only levels with riot style (basically cancer red hell levels) gets known and small creators don't have a single chance of being known.

[@CristanGD23]

I like how Delta Interface is like the sequel to Orochi

[@s3batr0nic]

Also most creators wanna just have fun they don't all have to make artistic masterpeices

[@norkbork]

s3batr0nic yeah! for sure i think it’s ok for creators to just make levels for fun but like i think there’s a point where people like xcreatorgoal and numerous other creators purposely make levels just for cp cause like, they all have the same exact style and the have no experimentation whatsoever or difference between them, and whether they’re made for fun or not they’re still affecting gd and all the stuff i said in the video. but for sure like i also said in the vid not everything has to be an artistic masterpiece, i think it’s just creators rhat never actually put out levels that differ from each other and just stick to this one systematic approach to getting cp and making levels that works

[@SM-zf1ef]

Overall I agree with these points except that we need to remove all effortless levels. If every single level was of the highest quality then that would become the new standard which means there would be no levels to rise above the rest. I also feel that in the KZbin community talented creators and good levels are given proper attention. If you go to most level replay channels like Nexus or Viprin, they tend to give attention to good levels from unknown creators over effortless level from popular creators. People like JonathanGD have gained popularity through getting KZbin attention rather then farming CP.

[@norkbork]

i mean like i said in the video itd be unfair to say every level needs to be super high quality but i do think we need to stop giving platform to levels that just want CP and creators that just churn them out, if they released them every once in a while then that would probably be fine but there are just creators that dedicate their entire career to making levels with minimal effort which i dont really approve of yknow

[@CrazyDash9]

I agree. I understand if you want to make some sort of generic level just to get your first creator point. It’s what I’m doing. But at the same time, I want to put effort into what I get cp for. I’m mostly a collab host so I don’t decorate. But I try to put as much effort into my collabs as possible so the cp I get is actually relevant. I hate most daily levels. Most creators just need to raise their standards. Now I think inspiration is a good thing. You have to start somewhere. But, once you adapt to this style your are taking inspiration from, you need to implement your own ideas into it to make it original. And that is how you grow as a creator. Not saying it takes a month for this to work. It took me about a year to get to where I am as a gameplay creator. My old style was very bad. I then took inspiration from some gameplay creators. At first my stuff was very unoriginal since I was basically just copying ideas from other creators. But slowly over time, I implemented new ideas into my gameplay so my stuff feels different. However I still have a while to go until I can say my stuff is original.

[@anonymouspig992]

Video starts at 2:44

[@egidapalatina]

Thank you so much. My only nitpick would be about MCs, it seemed to me like you believed they are devoid of criticism, but there's a lot to say about it as well. You could dig a bit into how repetitive megacollabs have become, and how they are now more often a gallery of creator styles than fully cohesive levels. Maybe for another video?

[@norkbork]

i definitely think mcs arent that great either but thats a whole nother vein of this issue that i didnt really want to go into ahah

[@filurenerik1643]

You need to give examples. If you see this, tell me about a few levels/creators who fall into these problems! Right now this video is great but it needs more to work with.

[@norkbork]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z3LYgYuLrL6Dq9k “experimental” level that literally makes no sense and somehow gets praise lmao and if you want proof about the featured section just go to the top levels and play some of them, sorry that i didn’t put any visual aids that’s my bad

[@filurenerik1643]

@@norkbork Thanks. Now I understand your point better

[@thegameowl11]

I am attempting to make a series of 5 levels that will probably take a few years and I plan on asking for feedback along the way to prefect it. They will each have a dungeon theme along with an element. They will each test a single gd skill except for the last level The levels are as fallows. Lv1: snowstone themed around water and ice with the skill of endurance Lv2: Firestone themed around fire and electricity and will test skill (similar to sakupan he’ll.) Lv3: windstone themed around the sky and will test timing Lv4: lifestone themed around the element of earth and plants. Will test memory and will probably have a boss. Lv5: crystal of elements. Will be a mix of the previous 4 levels with the added theme of crystals. Same applies to the gameplay. Wish me luck.

[@thegameowl11]

I just uploaded a showcase for the level. Please keep in mind that it’s not finished. kzbin.info/www/bejne/mZ3Eh6ykjN-Wodk

[@masterdoge987]

Thanks for this video, I’m tired of people trying to grind for CP. Take a look at YunHa - I tried to say it and my tongue started screaming - his level Bayaharo has barely any block design, backgrounds, and some backgrounds are WAY TOO BRIGHT, and it got an epic rating. I feel like the “notice the unnoticed” argument is almost solved, and I say almost because look at the level Invader by The Goola, great block design, fun gameplay, great air design - featured. BRUH. Also your voice is very calming, I subbed because I enjoy your content

[@Dragon-gk1bl]

I think part of the problem lies in robtop’s arbitrary standards for what gets epic vs what doesn’t. Many of the levels that try something completely different, such as SIGSEGV, Night Life, Kidsmoke, and Dream Travel to name a few are all featured only and receive the same reward as any average level. This sort of standard demotivates creators from actually trying to be different if they’re just gonna get the same reward as making something uninspired and samey. While some of these super different levels also lag, such as Dream Travel, that should hardly be an excuse considering how quickly Robtop gave epic to Astral Divinity and Ouroboros, which are both very laggy levels. I’m not saying both of these levels shouldn’t be epic, I’m merely saying that the standard for laggy levels getting epic or not should remain consistent which it usually never does.

[@norkbork]

i 100% agree, robtops inconsistent rating system is a huge problem that is demotivating to a lot of creators

[@s3batr0nic]

Man..I just wanna play a fun level that doesn't lag.

[@juntti8533]

agree with the point about the experimental levels, but atleast the cp farming problem isnt nearly as bad now as it was in 2.0.

[@gamecubeguy214]

I've heard people say that once you get your first creator points, it's then easier to get ratings on new levels that you release. I think it should be *harder.* Think about it, you got your first creator points. Now in order to get more, you have to make something better than what you made previously. Right? This way creators would be forced to make something new and better every time they want more creator points, and they can't just get comfortable sticking with what works. Perhaps once they get a good momentum going with creator points, creations that aren't their absolute best work but are still of good quality can get rated as well.

[@koiasana]

I only agree with the first one. I started playing this game when i was a kid and i knew which levels were good and that is what got me into the game

[@connot]

I agree with a lot of points in this video. I am a creator, but I rarely build with creator points in mind. Personally, I don't have any creator points. I've only made about 2 solos in 2 years. Whenever I create I look more into the factor of enjoyability rather than creator point standards, while I have succeeded in some areas, I have fallen flat in others. Whenever I created with the only factor pushing me to create was an added little badge on my profile, my work came out rushed and not very clean feeling. I create now for the hopeful pleasure of others; and that's what I hope to see in the community now since that's why this game really exists in the first place. Asking for every rated level to be good on the other hand is almost impossible. Whenever I play a "bad" rated level, I look deeper into the mind of the creator to see what they really went for into creating the level, hopefully coming up with another meaning of sensibility from the creator.

[@norkbork]

yeah of course not every level that’s rated is gonna be some masterpiece like i said, but i just think it’s people like xcreatorgoal who just constantly make these bad levels that have the same exact style and color scheme and literally everything except song and gameplay if you know what i mean, i definitely wish more people would be like you and feel unsatisfied just making levels that really don’t mean to much and instead making awesome solos that take a longer time but are overall better levels. i also really like the mindset you have of trying to see into what the creator thought when making it, as that’s a really mature and i think appreciative way to look at levels and try to understand them :p thanks for the comment !

[@thegameowl11]

Me and zippy06 are working on a collab called evolution. Zippy is going to do everything from the 1.0 style begging to the part in 1.9 hell style and I will do everything from that to a really unique part at the end.

[@parth_rx]

bruh

[@chaotic5672]

I like to try new styles and try to bring my style into it a bit

[@homeboye8632]

These are just my jumble of thoughts put into words lol, sorry if it doesn’t make much sense to you I’ll acknowledge this video and it’s fair good points in my view, the way I interpreted it was that there’s this perfect level that’s yet to come out that only a few will be able to make. The definition of what makes a level good is really vague for a reason, and that’s due to how many factors go into making a level, and what types the player enjoys playing. You can have incredible visuals, but extremely bad gameplay. You can have a really fun layout, but not be decorated. Player 1 may enjoy and value visuals over gameplay. Player 2 may enjoy and value gameplay over layouts. It’s what you like, not what the majority like. Thats just two extreme examples. Your favorite level could be a layout because of how fun it is to play. Your favorite level could be a stunning visual focused level, but with little to no contribution to gameplay. It doesn’t matter, because in the end, it’s what you value more. On top of that, you don’t get the right to command a creator Now about creators. Some may build visual focused levels because they may enjoy building visuals over gameplay. Some may build layouts because they enjoy the flow of gameplay over visuals. It’s up to them. In the end, creators build for enjoyment (I literally don’t know one creator who’s forcing themselves to build when they don’t enjoy building, if you wanted to prove that point wrong. I’ve seen creators quit due to the lack of enjoyment they used to get for building). They may enjoy building for CP, that’s on them. They may enjoy building for the enjoyment for others, that’s on them. They may enjoy building for themselves, that’s on them. My point is, is that many creators don’t build for the same general reason. The message that I got from this video made me interpret that every creator should build for one reason, and that’s to make something that stands out against the community norms. That is one of the most twisted and unfair mindset to hold upon most creators (like I said before, some may enjoy building to that reason alone). Not every level has to be groundbreaking, and not every level has to look the same as others. The creator gets to choose how they want to build, not the community. The creator may enjoy building levels that look like every other one. The creator may enjoy building levels that are groundbreaking compared to the rest, it’s up to the creator As a creator, I speak for the majority of us when I say this: We have a reason and a right to build whatever we want, however we want.

[@Anxmaly666]

I'm a good example of this, my levels are more gameplay focused than they are visual focused

[@grabajusz5836]

I find only one problem in "Creating Communi -sm- ty". They clearly forgot, that GD is a game, not a photoshop and decided to put appearence over experience from playing.

[@devinmroz5810]

I agree with every point you made. I’m on board. I want to be a creator that develops a unique style and creates levels unlike any other.

[@milesnyan34]

At least I got 1 cp back in early 2.0 so I don't have to worry about that achievement, it would be near impossible for me to get now

[@hexeract]

amazing video as always norkyy

[@kaie7767]

I can understand where you are coming from, but one issue I thought of while you were talking about the art levels, some people want to decorate but don't have the artistic mindset like others do. They may not have good PC Specs and then can't run these object heavy levels. I can agree with the point that people need to change their style and not stick to one for a "CP Farm". Some of these people who "CP Farm" may actually not, they may just enjoy what they are doing and don't have the motivation or the mindset to change their style quite a few times. Personally I don't really mind what style you go with, as long as it isn't too generic and something that everyone else does. Try to, as you said, mix styles. Like what I've done for an Insane Demon I decorated and am verifying, I have used the song to determine the style, and that is what I believe is also important. People shouldn't praise CP like it is gold. It shows the amount of levels you put out and that are rated/featured/epic rated. I also think if people are happy with how their levels look, then no one should put them down for it. It's kinda like how people lay their homework out, or how they live their life, if they are happy with it, then it shouldn't be a problem and they should be allowed to do it freely without consequence. That's my take on it.

[@akanta5746]

I know this video is kinda old but one major thing you forgot to mention is how like 40% of levels are made with the same 15 artists or so despite there being a massive amount of buried talent on newgrounds, with a lot of music styles almost never being used on gd. I feel like this is one of the biggest reasons why so many featured levels feel so generic, because the songs that they use have been overused to the point of exasperation. Not only would giving unknown artists some love increase the amount of attention said artists recieve, but it's arguably the easiest way to instantly differentiale a level from the crowd. Top creators know this, and that's why in the epic tab the music choice tends to be a lot more diverse. I mean, think about how much weaker the immersion of heartbeat, crystal corridor, or white space would be without the background music (all three of which use music from artists virtually unknown in the community). It's an important topic that literally nobody is talking about. Maybe make a video about it?

[@landon2614]

I personally agree with most of the points in this and I think you conveyed them well, but I disagree with the point about CP grinders being looked up to. I only receive about 3-10 messages on GD a week, and even fewer on discord, and I really can’t point to any level that I’m aware took great influence from me as a CP grinder, and the same goes for many other grinders that I’ve noticed. If nothing else, I’ve slowed down my creating and I’m beginning to focus more on individual levels, and a handful of people who CP grind are making similar efforts. I hope to someday do my part by helping to clear the poor reputation of CP grinders and make active attempts to improve both myself and fellow grinders.

[@norkbork]

i mean i think it comes down to the individual cause ive talked with some others that seem to tell a different story but idk maybe im just exaggerating things but i do think there is a subconcious level of like, "wow this person has cp", yknow?

[@landon2614]

Overall, definitely.

[@ZimnyteGD]

Nothing much to add. Very accurate.

[@dovi_bun]

Hey @norkbork, great video and I think you addressed the topics in this video really well! I just want your opinion on this. So, what is your opinion on levels that have been bought on fiverr? As in either decoration or layout. The reason why I ask this is because I want to make a level that I want to have fun playing, one the makes me who I am, one that identifies me. The problem is, is that I don't know how to decorate a feature-worthy level, and even if I did, I wouldn't have much motivation because I just am not the person that would dedicate hours and hours on this one thing. I know that is the point of GD, but creating you have to constantly come up with ideas that can't differ from each other too much, but are also unique. That's where fiverr comes in. I could pay someone that makes deco that really puts it out there on the type of person I am. Like I said, I want a level that identifies me, not just some level only to raise some meaningless number on my profile. A level that shows the world who I truly am. What do you think about this? Do you agree or disagree? Do you think it would be better for the community if I don't make a level like this? What do you think would be a better way to approach this situation?

[@doominator2229]

I see what you are saying here but there are a few things I either disagree with or don’t completely agree with. For one, in the discord communities in general cp is barely recognized outside of a congratulations. Imo the discord communities is the most social and helpful gd community. Cp grinding is generally looked down upon unless you creat great levels at the same time. Rn I think the feature standards to mods are actually going up. When I started building a year ago, some things I’m making rn would be epic but now their maybe just a feature or star rate according to mods. I would also argue that glow / generic style is the most open to newer creators. Because of this, more creators make in these styles. Glow and generic are also much faster to make than other styles such as modern tech and abstract / rafer style. This causes more of them to be made in general. Overall, I would argue that the discord creating community’s standards are going up and I don’t think that’s a good idea. Eventually it will get to a point where people take a year to make a level that barely gets epic and newer creators won’t be able to make anything rate worthy in their life time. Rn many people believe that every level someone makes must be much better than every other level they have made. Overall I don’t think that the creating community cares about cp as much as you believe and those that do, are looked down upon. Current generic and glow styles are faster to design and easier to learn making it a good place to start for new creators. Sorry for the ramble.

[@riccardogallo4074]

Your face when an S tier youtuber doesn't get recognized enough for their effort put into videos. Honestly you deserve more subs. Keep up the good work!

[@Christeamer]

Theory is that rob is lowering the standards so his 2.2 level looks good relative to the featured section

[@sydney4704]

Coughs*Viprin*Cough

[@polyclips701]

I think one thing that wasn't really touched on in this video is the fact that the moderators choose what goes on the feature page. Yes, the creators to an extent are at fault for creating generic levels, but it is the mods' fault for giving these ripped off or just straight up bad levels attention. (Featured page) I think that a good point to make would be that mods should be more strict about certain styles and more open to rating others.

[@Anxmaly666]

Yeah the rating system is flawed in so many ways

[@zegaoyi]

Good job norkbork! Maybe you can add more specific examples into your explanations to convince your audience better :P

[@norkbork]

yeah in hindsight i really should have done that im just not the brightest sometimes lmao

[@wownoway8127]

Let's be honest - gd really needed this video.

[@Anxmaly666]

Yeah

[@oceanpig2698]

I completely agree. GD was never supposed to be a game where multiple creators make masterpieces. I honestly think robtop has expected the editor to be usedon creating levels such as the official levels, but it has really come to the point where creators have become more creative and don’t create levels in the way robtop would’ve expected. I’m personally fine with cp farmers, though, because none of them will ever become famous creators on the community while they don’t make something amazing or even stunning.

[@imazegd3006]

Awesome vid explaining the issues in our community! However, I'm very confused as to what "false" experimentation, and "real" experimentation is, and some examples of them. It almost seems contradictory.

[@norkbork]

sorry if i explained that badly lol, what i mean is real experimental levels have a purpose, they have a meaning or artistic effect in mind which is why they break norms and are weird, but there’s a lot of levels nowadays that get attention from just being weird to be weird, which i argues against in my video. if you want an example, here- kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z3LYgYuLrL6Dq9k stuff like this is getting amazing reception and praise even though it literally makes no sense and has no artistic meaning that is evident, and somehow the community adores these things even though they are just nonsensical

[@imazegd3006]

@@norkbork oh, ok. Thanks! :)