The PROBLEM with FFX-2.5, the novella sequel

I've been researching FFX-2.5, the novella sequel, that came out with the release of the remaster in 2014 -- and there is ONE THING I just cannot get over.
Let's talk about it.
~~~~ * ABOUT MIRANDA LEMONS * ~~~~
I’m Miranda Lemons 🍋, here to share with you my love of turn-based JRPGs with rich storylines. I have a Master of Arts (MA) in literary criticism, and I bring this background to deep dives and character analysis on incredible games such as my all-time favorite, Final Fantasy X.
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[@MirandaLemons]

Do you see FFX-2.5, the novella, as canon to the world of FFX?

[@jamquick5298]

I haven't read that FF 10 2.5 but if Tidus is alive, then yea I'll say it's canon.

[@theknightsofgimmly9457]

I do the same Thing as with disney Star wars: nope. A World is created, when the new stuff clashes so much with the old stuff that it could be a different setting i loose interest. 🤷🏽‍♂️ I guess if there will ever bee a FF X - 3 it will ignore anything outside the games... Well, if i had heard of that book as a Teenager i might had have a really bad month 🤣🤣 Always got to sentimental about fictional Charakters 😅

[@SurvivalSpheres]

@@theknightsofgimmly9457 same here. Losing interest is the perfect way to put it. I don’t actually hate it and I also give it some credit for stemming from what I say is an ‚authentic source‘: It doesn’t just sport the Square Enix logo, but was written by the original scenario writer himself! Can’t deny that means something. But still, after finding out more (about huge wasted potential) I decided just not to think about it much more. To be honest though, some part of me is still curious about the underlying reasons. What made Nojima decide to do what he did? There must be an answer.

[@theknightsofgimmly9457]

@@SurvivalSpheres well.. we might get an Exploration one day...

[@SurvivalSpheres]

​@@theknightsofgimmly9457 Over the last days I took a deeper dive into 2.5 and Will and I must say I somewhat changed my attitude. Having been as skeptical as you were at first, I'd recommend you make up your own mind. From my point of view, the majority of people who tear apart the progress of the story have not understood or have misunderstood some things that are actually not so hidden. For example, Yuna doesn't behave like a different person, but on the contrary, it fits well with her original character - as long as you understand the background of her acting like she acts. Also, the sad undertone in the last FFX-2 perfect ending clip (Yuna and Tidus in Zanarkand) suddenly makes sense, because that's exactly where FF 2.5 ends. Heck, even her claiming weird stuff in Last Mission makes sense, she's just pretending in order to protect. Of course there are still several inconsistencies and also enough reason for criticism (as expressed in this video, for example), but: it's nowhere near as bad as many are shouting out loud. It might be worth giving it a chance.

[@JovianX]

Yea, when i read that Sin had returned it just felt like they cheapened the whole adventure of X altogether. Its so weird that this is direction they would go with. It doesnt give me hope for X-3 should that ever come out. Maybe they will turn it into a prequel story about Braska and Jecht.

[@MirandaLemons]

Yes. There is so many more interesting directions they can go.

[@MirandaLemons]

It's not just cheapening the adventure; I don't know how to make it make sense. Sin was created via thousands of Fayth drawned upon by a summoner. If there is a rip in the Farplane and the unsent can come back easily, fine. But it should be Yu Yevon who comes back; Sin cannot.

[@valphyrian]

@@MirandaLemons I believe this is the intention, in the audio drama Yuna states that "someone" very strongly wished for Sin, a powerful beckoning. Yu Yevon was the most powerful known summoner, and if people are returning from the far plane in droves, it would make sense that he had returned. X ended with his sending, it would make sense if Sin was to return in a game that would follow similar beats to X, it could begin with the return of Yu Yevon. Perhaps the logic behind it is that Yunas beckoning caused a rift in the far plane, and this is what is causing the general public to beckon their loved ones into Spira. Yu Yevons return could be caused by the disgruntled older generation of Yevonites longing for times past when their religion was widespread and they were "comfortable" despite what that meant for others. Their longing could have beckoned Yu Yevon who could resume his beckoning of souls to create a new Sin. Lots of speculation since we have little to go off of though.

[@MirandaLemons]

@@valphyrian I like your take! It is taking something quite confusing and making it dramatic. What does it say about humanity to actually wish for Sin to come back? It is entirely possible that an audio drama conveying this concept can't help but to be uncomfortable, because FFX has many many hours to sink into its ideas.

[@lukehart7225]

@@MirandaLemons the end credit scene of Final Fantasy X, you see Tidus swimming up; then they replayed that scene in FFX-2 when you get a good, perfect ending. It’s good that he’s back but what do you do from there. I agree with what you said but what’s the point of having Sin come back and Tidus disappear again, you may as well play FFX again.

[@NateIsCorrupt]

Is a happy ending so much to ask for? FFX was amazing and many of us grinded X-2 to get the perfect ending with Tidus and Yuna. This new story is making me scratch my head…

[@salmark9080]

Nah to me that final ending is the cannon ending to ffx

[@LuciousLoire]

It's a rabbit hole, I prefer the way the game ended, I need not know more. Take the blue pill for this.

[@MirandaLemons]

I love that. 😂 Take the blue pill.

[@deezee2965]

The first time I heard about Tidus exploding, I always pictured it as a Simpsons gag

[@Whosthathufflepuff]

I completely agree! I loved that FFX-2 really examined the world of Spira and how they dealt with the world changing. They worked within all the established lore to come up with new and different scenarios, but in a way where everything matched up with the story and emotions from the first game. That perfect ending really is PERFECT in the way that it’s the culmination of everything Yuna fought for the entire way. Any supplemental material that tries to change that well earned ending or retcon the rules behind it just feels like a bad faith interpretation of an ending that didn’t need to be changed.

[@lukehart7225]

You really said it man, don’t know how to describe it! It’s difficult for companies to follow up on great first games such as Final Fantasy X. It’s all about change and time, and facing death

[@valphyrian]

I'm a bit late to the draw here, so I hope you end up seeing this. But I would have to argue that the "mechanics" behind beckoning aren't actually new, this is just the first time they've actually been explained further. It's explained in the game that Yu Yevon crafts the souls of the dead into an unholy armor called Sin, and clad in it, he is invincible. It's always been known that Yu Yevon was an exceptionally powerful summoner, and the plot of FFX and his role in it heavily imply that there is more to Summoning than is currently known to the modern practitioners of the art. The mainline example being the creation of Sin, Yu Yevon uses the souls of the dead to do so, this could be a facet of the art of beckoning, and it's potential to do this and it's misuse could explain why it was forbidden and written out of history in the first place. This could also explain why Sin and it's creation were such an enigma to modern Spirans, even Mika who was one of the like four people to know about him and leader of Yevon, only knew as much as he was weilding the souls of the dead to create Sin, but didn't know how or how to stop it. Even his own daughter, Yunalesca, was ignorant to the process despite being the only known person able to create fayth in modern Spira and saw Spira to be doomed without the ill-fated practice. That being said, I won't be the person to stand in the line of fire and say that 2.5 is a good read or good continuation of the story, but I will say a lot of the lore specific information given in it (if you ignore the dumb stuff) is actually really interesting and makes sense within context. Same with the introductions of pre-yevon religions and the existence of Gods. Ever notice that in the artwork for Seventeen (which became FFX) there are child-like Angels depicted alongside the character that became Tidus? What if I told you they actually appear in the game, and you've likely never thought about them beyond thinking it was an odd decision to have a permanent auto life during the final encounter? This Auto Life effect is unique in a few ways, firstly that it is granted automatically without player input, but also that it is visually significant in that it has a unique animation, different from the auto life seen anywhere else in the game. It depicts the unique model of a child-like angel that is not explained, mentioned nor shown anywhere else in the game (or beyond to my knowledge?). This is speculation, but I wonder if there could be more to that. Some kind of divine intervention, perhaps? Anyway, just wanted to share my 3am thoughts lmao, sorry for the wall of text!

[@MirandaLemons]

I am so impressed by this! The Seventeen and the final boss. Yunalesca as the last known person to make a Fayth (did Yunalesca make Seymour's mother into a Fayth?) 🤯 You could make a killer video essay.

[@valphyrian]

@@MirandaLemons Thank you! I stumbled across your channel last night and the one braincell I have left went into overdrive thinking about FFX lore while I watched through a handful of your videos. I was impressed by how well researched you are and I really appreciate the feedback! And yeah, Seymour's mother became the Fayth for Seymour's final aeon. As far as I know, it's not known if her name was actually Anima or how the naming convention of the Fayth and their Aeon works. Despite being a "Final Summoning" Anima's still kicking around since she was never used to battle Sin, and thus was not destroyed / taken over by Yu Yevon. In theory, Seymour could have defeated Sin at literally any moment, but chose not to because he himself wanted to be the Aeon bc he's a weirdo... To add to this though, I do not think Yuna could have used Anima to battle Sin as they do not personally share the "bond" used to create her or whatever. Anima and Braska's Final Aeon are the only two Final Summonings that we've actually seen, but it's hard to tell how Aeon Jecht might have looked before Yu Yevon's influence.

[@karmaslyrics]

I had never heard of the book or audio drama before this. I personally feel like they could have made this a good game with this novella and drama. Maybe we get Yuna still feeling sad about Tidus and maybe she still leaves to go pursue spheres. But what if the other plots of the factions and barali are the beckoning plot. Where half of them want sin back and they don't like the peaceful life. The other half is good and they seek to remain peaceful but as a result they rely on Yuna too much and that whole eternal conflict (do what the people need me to do, versus what i ultimately want) starts to rise in Yuna. (Rikku doesn't help much because she brought this up since 10) Maybe barali or someone comes to Yuna in a dream (rest stops in every chapter in the cabin) and tells her there is a way, a way she doesn't know to bring back people who died but don't tell her the effects of doing so. Maybe she still maintains this sweet persona of having fun looking for spheres and having a new life, but people keep asking for things, or she keeps saying yes to helping. Maybe it gets to the dark aeon part, where there is a summoner or maybe all of them we saw in 10, that also want to do the beckoning and the fayth has to try and stop them and yuna is the only one who can but she's very conflicted. So maybe Shuyin finally is the one revealed to be in her head with the dreams and Lenne is the voice of reason. Maybe to save the world she'd have to send Shuyin back but that would mean she'd never be able to bring back Tidus. Or if she brings Tidus back, all would be saved from Vegnagun but then the reprocessions from that would also happen, so a plot armor device, we get Lenne helping her.. emotional scenes happen and we get the thousand years song by both.. and Yuna somehow makes a conscious decision to save Spira. And then Yuna discovers she can bring him back but only for a short time as a thank you to the fayth. And then we get to see him like the ffx2 ending. And then he and Yuna could have couple issues, and the exploding blitzball would be a daydream of both as a joke. What do you think?

[@ValetinoLovebird]

Tidus fought countless fiends and beats Sin, dies due to an explosion

[@gaybitgaming]

Actually it makes perfect sense Spira always rubbed me wrong about its concept of death Seymour was literally "I'm back bitches did u miss me 💋" summoners just force souls into the far plane n they're just stuck there so when new created a new form of summoning she just rewrote how death works I like how death is going final destination on tidus n he keeps dying 🤣🤣 n Yuna is getting over it

[@MirandaLemons]

The key piece I'm missing is HOW exactly Tidus is dead. One thing that always confused me, too, is how Tidus is able to see his mother in the Farplane. If she and Tidus were never alive, how could they be dead?

[@gaybitgaming]

@@MirandaLemons ok its so hard to find n I did by mistake the explanation is that they don't have souls like in ff7 you're life essence returns to the faith but ur conscience is left behind that's what summoners send that last bit energy left behind when u die n it grows n becomes friends that's why the aeons kept saying we wanna sleep they've been awake for thousands of years n sin put them into overdrive so in a sense Yuna n the gang destroyed the magic of summoning ffx-3 rumors says it'll take place in the far plane n distant lands

[@jonatascristian4391]

You really love ff X you understand each piece of this game .and i learning with this 😊

[@MirandaLemons]

Thanks, Jonatas!

[@Katie_Woo]

I have watched videos on the book and was stunned by what it contained. FFX2 is my favourite game because of how it tackled Yuna's identity crisis, searching for her purpose and the obsessive quest to find/earn back a lost love. For all of that hardship to be put into question, then adding in unacknowledged powers in the book seems to hit reset on too many things for my liking. If she knew the beckoning, why wasn't it used in the second game instead of searching for clues? Have they created their own plot hole with this power? Loved the video 👍👍

[@patsg1146]

So, the summoners have the power to raise the dead (assuming Yuna is not the first) and when she uses it, it has catastrophic ramifications... sure. I am mostly sad it's not called the Baconing, the dead would have a great reason to come back...

[@MirandaLemons]

True. All negative opinions would be nullified if sizzling bacon aroma was involved.

[@agnieszkas.5382]

My whole childhood is destroyed. I only wanted Yuna and Tidus together. They are one of the best couple in entire FINAL FANTASY games. And then they are making some crappy audio Will when Yuna break up with Tidus? Then I read some comments she broke up with him to protect him but still loves him. XD I am... DEVASTATED.

[@samuelaubrey2612]

I only recently found out about this and as far as I'm concerned it no longer exists..... 🤣😒

[@DreamFireNostalgia]

The noval seems to be in the same league of the legend of zelda manga. Not cannon but can be entertaining to read. But definently seems like a 3rd part had some fanfiction (albeit more well written) ideas.

[@MirandaLemons]

I hope that's the case. Though I think it can also be argued that X-2 is fanficton-y. Do we draw the line for ourselves?

[@DreamFireNostalgia]

@@MirandaLemons good point. I supose it would depend on if the noval is intended to be Canon and made by the same people or a 3rd party who lisensed it from square enix. I dont know ill have to look into it. Edit: it apears that the gentalman who wrote the noval was one of the senerio writers for x and x2 so now im not aure how to feel about it.

[@MirandaLemons]

@@DreamFireNostalgia That is correct. Square-enix directly published the novella and produced the audio drama, which expands on 'the beckoning' introduced in the novella.

[@CYB3R2K]

X2 was cringe enough. X was the perfect ending, it didn't needed any sequels.

[@GamingWithSpoons]

The book and audio drama are the reason I don't want a final fantasy x 3. Everyone is cheering for one but I don't think they realize this is what they get. On a side note there is so much they could do with hidden technology and lost civilization I'm surprised they went to bringing Sin back.

[@MirandaLemons]

I agree, except I still am cheering on a X-3 knowing full well what we're getting into. To see Spira in modern graphics is worth it to me, regardless of story.

[@CriticalAuthor]

One thing people need to understand is that Canon doesn't go outside its original media. So FFX-2.5 is only objectively canon to the book & not the games. Willow (film) had 3 book sequels to its film, but different media thus not canon to the film. Plus, they wrote a novel version of the film. Thus the supposed sequel to the film ([the books]; thought by those who enjoyed the film) was only a sequel to the book adapted from the film.

[@Kligor2]

Im actually very open to the idea. Spira lived off of spirals for so long it seems kinda cool that Sin is back. It could be the final time Spira hs to reject the past. Maybe Bevelle, with Yuna and Tidus' pressure, decides to use the pieces of Vegnagun to combat sin and take it down after some drawn out conflict. Maybe they weaken it enough to have a fight vs Sin itself and its like "Well the Guado wanted their leader... who then wanted Sin" I could see so many potentially awesome ways to go about this. Tho Im not sure about the timeline Id need to re-read it but either way I feel like so long as the original writers are involved Ill enjoy it. The only way it'll be like- unfixable for me is if they double down on the FF7 connection.

[@JediMB]

As I understand it, Nojima Kazushige got really upset about the X-2 having a happy ending, so he went full spiteful bastard and just made some shit up to undo that status quo. That's honestly not even worth paying attention to, and as far as I'm concerned the story ends with X-2.

[@casia-sk1674]

lords work

[@MirandaLemons]

☺️

[@CYB3R2K]

Also Japan in general has a weird thing of always screwing up their successful media into crappy low budget sequels. Especially in gaming and anime. "Oh you want more of this best seller beloved game or anime (Digimon for example)? Here, play this obscure mobile game or read this crappy light novel where the main characters divorce or something.

[@daric_]

I wasn't a big fan of FF7 Advent Children because it had a convoluted story to just get Sephiroth back. This seems like the same thing to get Tidus, the Aeons, and Sin back. Sometimes stories should just be left alone and the writers need to move on instead of milking a franchise and destroying the universe that people loved with bad writing or pointless sequels.

[@MirandaLemons]

Agreed. Fortunately, not released internationally.

[@dragon55555555551]

Is there any or much art in the book?

[@SurvivalSpheres]

By the way, shouldn’t this book be labeled a novel rather than a novella? Because apparently that’s two different things.

[@kiprana6565]

I like to believe FFX-2.5 is a joke and it makes me really question Kazushige Nojima's kills as a stand-alone writer. Someone has to babysit him or the story would go off the rails, Tetsuya Nomura is being blamed for his decisions in the FF7 Remake series.

[@vexcarius7100]

I’d rather have FF17 in a world similar to Spira. Like what they did with 12,16 and Tactics

[@mismismism]

Yeah, my issue with the novella and even FFX-2 to an extent(aside from the idol fan fiction cheesiness I actually hate with a passion) is that it really undermined the sacrifices of the original. Bringing Tidus back. Sin coming back, it really hurts the narrative to me. In a perfect world, at least to me, if the rumored sequel ever happens, I wish it just pretended FFX-2 onward, never happened and actually made a continuation that fit the feel on FFX and didn't try to undercut the events of the original. IMO, the sequel should have just focused on Yuna's growth, maybe the corruption by Yevon and what they were hiding, and they could have even made the Shuyin thing work in a different way since Tidus is technically a dream based on memories from the actual people from Zanarkand if I remember correctly, so Shuyin being the visual basis for Tidus in the dream could have been a good in to have Yuna and the squad investigate what actually happened in that war more. All the elements like Vegnagun and how summoning works, could have worked in a different context but it was all laid out in a way that was a huge mess. Genuinely the first thing I think of in FFX-2 is that cringe Yuna "Lalala" singing scene and I'm not not happy about it to this day lol.

[@MirandaLemons]

It's rough. I have to imagine that Square-enix mostly (not fully) endorses FFX-2 as it's included in the remaster bundle and is financially successful. However, subsequent cameos are of the FFX version of Yuna, suggesting that Yuna is the Yuna we should remember as the 'true' Yuna. FFX-2.5 immediately tries to make her back into the old Yuna (even in between Good Ending and Perfect Ending). Perhaps there are creative differences internally? It's hard to say.

[@mismismism]

@@MirandaLemons Yeah, there was kind of a trend where a few females in FF were getting kinda turned into Jpop idol/magical girl fan fiction, I remember it happened with Lightning and some of the girls in FF13 to a lesser extent too, it really felt like someone wanted to force them to fit into that archetype even if it didn't match the tone of FFX and no one asked for that. Something was definitely off and it did feel like the reception was not good so they tried to pull back by almost rehashing FFX in the novella. There have still been talks of another sequel so I just hope if it happens, it's planned out better. They're making FF7 Remake work pretty well so never say never.

[@OnryoKami]

I disagree FFX And FFX2 are really great games

[@mismismism]

@@OnryoKami FFX is one of ny favorites, FFX-2 has fun gameplay but the story has a lot of issues and the huge tonal shift was too much for me. If you like it, I'm happy for you, it was way too cheesy for me.

[@46LCG]

I remember downloading a fan translation from the Japanese version way back of FFX-2.5. Hated it---just hated the ret-conning and supposed earlier "history" of Spira. Tbh I don't recognize it as canon and especially after Mobius/FFX: The Dream Within the Dream. We see Tidus adventuring around Cornia, hoping to become The Warrior of Light! Anyway, he escapes and resumes his dream before we see the reunion scene in FFX-2. It's just my opinion but FFX-2.5 just comes off as poorly executed and without much thought given to established lore in FFX and FFX-2.

[@channman201]

I like to pretend the novella doesn't exist

[@CaptainFalchion]

I just beat FFX and FFX-2 and I was SHOCKED to learn about this book. Absolutely awful, why would anyone write this to damage a game with an amazing story and a perfect ending 😢 this book just is stupid fanfiction. And I understand what you’re saying about Tidus not really being “alive”, but the fact the authors did this again to him when he just got revived is just dumb

[@MirandaLemons]

It is a terrible sting when first learning about it.

[@user-nu8vw1ow4n]

Summoner from white mage to Necromancer with Beckoning. (Yuna) those book that call Canon should be burn. FFX-2.5, the novella and audio drama should be diffrent timeline or Universe. Tidus & Yuna from Dissidia will Dissapoint with Thiere main timeline self break up.

[@AlphaSpiritWolfsbane]

Honestly the whole story has to rewritten from part 1 and on. Remember ffx was not supposed to have a sequel, ffx-2 was just that a test and a so called potential money grab for square. This was when square made the merge from sqaresoft to square enix.

[@MirandaLemons]

Yes! It was. Everything about FFX-2, including the poor resources allocated, compromised the ethics of Square.

[@AlphaSpiritWolfsbane]

@@MirandaLemons i wouldn't say it compromised them, just poorly planned, because of the fact. Saving grace for square after ffx was ff14 arr... but that's something else all together.

[@MirandaLemons]

@@AlphaSpiritWolfsbane I believe Square was strictly against sequels. Each final fantasy was indeed 'final'. That's what I mean by compromised. 😁

[@AlphaSpiritWolfsbane]

@@MirandaLemons ah, yeah, that was squaresoft and not square enix... see where that lies? New company new rule so to speak. Then again all sequels they've put out seems like they're "fixing" what they did in the previous version.

[@cooldudedragon2067]

I hate to say this but I kinda wish they didn’t bring Tidus back at all in FFX-2 bc imo that game is about Yuna and Spira overcoming FFX and growing past Sin and the dread that came with it. The conflicting nations in FFX-2 was a neat idea since its typically hard to unite people if there isn’t a single goal or dominating figure/group /religion calling all the shots, so I will give it props for that. People have different ideas/ideologies about how to handle things, and to see Spira be given the choice to choose between different sides and not forced into a religion/group is exciting as it shows Spira is finally changing. However, Tidus coming back was purely fan service so people can agree on an ending that is truly “perfect”. It keeps the series stagnant on the continuing Yuna/Tidus conflict; I love the characters, but not everything needs to be centered on them imo. Anywho, I just feel the way FFX set the world and tone of Spira as mystical but still realistic. There is death and consequences and grieving but the bad guys always come back because they are bad guys and evil and fun to hate. Sin was like the ultimatum and solidified why that one religion was wrong and WHY the story worked in the first place. Sin coming back throws away the weight of the story so far for a shocking return of an enemy that wasnt necessary. Enemies like Seymour were necessary to come back to reveal more about the story, raise the stakes, make cool boss fights, and still meet a satisfying end in the game that they served; nothing more, nothing less. Back to Tidus, bringing him back was not necessary either and the story heavily implied that Tidus and Sin are connected, so it makes sense the story has developed in the way it did in the novella. But was it necessary? Idk……the idea of another FFX is cool but I just dont like the idea of going against previous elements of the story to make another one…..just to make another one with an already shaky foundation set by the novella. But who knows, it could be amazing, and I am just a hater. These games have always had a special place in my heart, and it’d be a shame if they made another one that i would have to refer to as “the other one” especially if it’s cannon. Also, great video!

[@MirandaLemons]

I think going against previous elements is inevitable. I share that same sense of mixed feelings, but I also know that I would love any attention given to FFX, even if it means I'll feel disappointed, too.

[@cooldudedragon2067]

@@MirandaLemons i agree, unfortunately. I love FFX, and I would definitely love more content, but I would definitely struggle to like it as much as the others if they choose to continue it in the way the novella did. There’s nothing set in stone (i think), so I’m optimistic and curious, but also a tad nervous. Hopefully, disappointment is not the consensus for when and if they continue.

[@gordobrigadainviernoel8216]

English text?

[@MirandaLemons]

Not sure if this is answering the question, but there is no English text but a fan translation from French.

[@Not.Giuseppe]

I bought the book, because I wanted it but I've not read it. X-2 is a stain on X overall. They should have left X alone, it was such a beautiful story as it was.,