The Problem with "GOTH" Characters (GOTH vs GOTHIC vs DARK)

Hey there guys, in this video I'll be going over characters from media be them Animated or Live-Action that have been labeled as "Goth" and why a lot of them just aren't but do either fall into the style of Gothic or Darkly-Inclined. I also give some tips and advice on how to create a character that fall into any of these 3 styles. This one is a long one so I suggest you get a drink and a snack if you plan to watch because again, this one is gonna be long haha.
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[@bonnieseiwell4240]

The Addams Family house is not Gothic though, it's Second Empire architecture. I'd like to stress however that Gothic novels or films can take place in ANY old house, it is not specific to buildings in the Gothic architectural style. Second Empire houses / mansions were not uncommon settings, particularly in the Gothic Romance novels popular during the 1960s and 1970s. While not Gothic in style, the Addams Family house is still a nod to Gothic literature/film as it's a big "old dark house."

[@KaiDecadence]

Oh poo, my bad on my end about their house. Though I understand that Gothic Novels/Films don't need to be set in just old houses or castles, that's why I mentioned places like forests/woods or even towns so long as it still gives off the same elements.

[@bonnieseiwell4240]

@@KaiDecadence I was just trying to make sure people understand I'm not disagreeing with you about the Addams family being a Gothic comedy by pointing out the architecture of their house isn't Gothic.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@bonnieseiwell4240 Oh okay. Got ya.

[@ThreadBomb]

Probably depends which iteration of the Addams Family you're talking about.

[@mrsmcl6117]

I think even Jhonen Vasquez himself the creator of Invader Zim said he doesn't like Gaz being called "goth" and never intended for her to be goth and I'm assuming that's why her clothing was changed in the movie

[@KaiDecadence]

You are correct, Jhonen Vasquez came out saying that Gaz was not a Goth and was never meant to be one. And I feel like that's why he changed her appearance to get her away from that.

[@rnilfshakes]

I always loved Darkly inclined things when I was younger, I even considered myself emo for song but I didn’t really discover goth until I was like 13. I’m 20 years now and I’ve never been more happy being surrounded by my darkness.

[@loshethqc]

same

[@AcelLeca0]

I call darkly inclined people darklings. He is a darkling. He is darkling Shey is a darkling. She is darkling They are darklings. They are darkling So that darkly inclined people have a label too if they want too.

[@Shannarenea]

I’m so glad I found goth/alternative people on KZbin

[@KaiDecadence]

Neat

[@cynthiab4346]

I’m not Goth or Gothic but I like learning about subcultures. This was super helpful! You did an amazing job describing the differences between Gothic, Goth, Darkly inclined, etc. I was so confused before being able to differentiate it. I didn’t even know that some of the bands I listened to were goth either? Thank you for educating me!

[@KaiDecadence]

Glad that the video helped clear things up :)

[@pythosdegothos6181]

A VERY sad commentary is that most of the "darkly inclined" character are girls, or women. It seems males or even androgynous presenting males are utterly and completely left out. Which for lack of a better term SUCKS, and dare I say, illustrates a tremendous example of sexism.

[@KaiDecadence]

OH YES. You can say that again. I noticed this myself back in 2015 when I did my old (and flawed) top 10 Goth & Gothic cartoon characters list on my gaming channel and I noticed how majority of them were women or little girls and it truly sucked that there weren't many guys to choose from. As far as "Goth" goes, there's only the 3 guys from the South Park Goth kids gang that I can recall. And it's not a coincidence neither, it's totally because of how some male creators sexualize Darkly-inclined women (whether Goth or Darkly-Inclined or even Gothic) and it's a shame...

[@KaiDecadence]

@Jeff Debiler We need more Goth characters in general. As I'm sure you saw, there are only like 4 legit overt Goth characters (Including the Goth kids in South Park, I just group them as a whole since they were usually together) in animation. Well I mean, we don't need them per say but if people want to make Goth characters, I think they need to actually do their research to make them believable otherwise they just get chucked to the Darkly-Inclined pile.

[@ilcerbiastrello9335]

Yeah, someone suggest this, near to the inverse problem of "nerds"/"geeks"

[@zam6182]

@@KaiDecadence True this.

[@anaisdiaz7346]

I'm finding myself to be all three: goth, gothic and darkly inclined! Thank you for the educational video

[@KaiDecadence]

Are you necessarily sure about that for Gothic? I can understand Darkly-Inclined and Goth if you like Goth music but with "Gothic", remember it's a certain medium. Do you actively read Gothic Literature?

[@anaisdiaz7346]

@@KaiDecadence Well, I do actively read mystery and horror but I know that doesn't always indicate 'gothic 'exactly. I now realized this, I have been looking into actually reading Dracula, however. When I have the chance to actually get the book...

[@KaiDecadence]

@@anaisdiaz7346 Yep, gothic literature is a very specific literary style so gotta be mindful of that if you're trying to get into gothic literature but there are plenty of sources out there to help you get started 😊

[@niellalien]

So much time has passed since the creation of goth that I think most people are a mix now.

[@marianafreitas4357]

I love goth music and post punk but I can’t wrap my head around metal. They are very different, dk why people get so confused lol

[@KaiDecadence]

You're preaching to the choir and I'm someone who does enjoy some Metal. It's pretty clear that these people focus only on the look and they assume Black clothing and dark makeup = Goth music when they're missing the point of MUSIC and what makes Goth what it is. Doesn't help that much misinformation has been spread around as well.

[@moopycheyenne5998]

I listen to a few Goth songs, but I'm not hardcore. So I know I'm not a Goth. The Addams Family has been the core of my love for everything dark since I was 3. I love Gothic architecture and literature everything!So therefore, I am Gothic/Darkly Inclined. Thank you for this, and I subscribed🖤

[@KaiDecadence]

Glad you enjoyed the video :)

[@sam.xcz23]

When I first got into the goth subculture I thought goth was just a fashion style and I had no idea about the music. I guess this could be attributed to the misrepresentation in media. I’ve since informed myself about the the music and the history surrounding the subculture. I am comfortable calling my self goth now. Your video did helped me find out I’m goth, gothic, and darkly inclined.

[@KaiDecadence]

Cool~

[@KaiDecadence]

Hey there everyone, I hope you all enjoyed the video or at the very least ,got something out of it. This was a topic I wanted to talk about for a good while now addressing some misonceptions about Goth and how it applies to some characters in media. If you have any further questions, feel free to ask! Other than that, I am terribly sorry the video is late, I ran into a lot of editing problems and had to go back and fix them. So yeah again, sorry for how late the video was as it was supposed to originally be up last Thursday lol. If you enjoyed this video and want to see more like it, be sure to subscribe! 'Till then I will catch you all in the next video, take care! -- MORE INFO & LINKS ABOUT GOTH & GOTHIC DOWN BELOW!--- ☥ Enjoyed the Video, be sure to subscribe! kzbin.info/door/fK_vq2yJ83qcpI2mEkbVVA ☥ GAMING CHANNEL: kzbin.info/door/yEQjcYfW5XNiYiKHXb8iew --- The 5 Genres of Goth music --- • Goth / Goth Rock • Deathrock • Darkwave • Ethereal Wave • Coldwave --- Goth Bands/Music --- • Bauhaus - "She's In Parties" ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/d4jXq6iDbbmGjKs ) -- Goth Rock 1st Wave -- • Sisters of Mercy - "Dominion" ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/aH3RpYSil9uoldE ) --- Goth Rock 1st Wave -- • Love Like Blood - "The Everlasting Dream" ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/q2SXnKhtg9tgfck ) --- Goth Rock 2nd Wave --- • Nosferatu - "Alone" ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/nZW2qKSKqqh8eck ) --- Goth Rock 2nd Wave --- • Miranda Sex Garden - "Peep Show" ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/fmi9e2Z3eZl0bdU ) -- Ethereal Wave Music --- • Cocteau Twins - "Five Ten Fiftyhold" ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/jnPRe4Znl9qcrbc ) --- Ethereal Wave Music --- • She Past Away - "Sann" ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/kKjMZXV-gtN9rMk ) --- Goth Rock / Darkwave --- • Drab Majesty - "Oxycotin" ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/h4iVep54e7Ceg6M ) --- Goth Rock / Darkwave --- • Switchblade Symphony - "Rain" ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/i2nXk5qJa72rZ5Y ) --- Darkwave Music --- • Dystopian Society - "Antisocial" ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/jJ-3pYKrgd51o7M ) --- Deathrock Music -- • Fangs on Fur - "Snake" ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/bHW3gIV5hNeNasU ) -- Deathrock Music --- • Antipole - "Syndrome" ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/eIiyk4B8f6aiZsU ) --- Coldwave Music --- • Asylum Party - "Play Alone" ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/lXWplpWhedV9pK8 ) --- Coldwave Music --- ► Extra Tip ~ To really understand what Goth music actually sounds like, listen carefully to how the guitar sounds. That is the key characteristic of what makes Goth music what it is, even in its Synth/Electronic based genres ( Darkwave, Coldwave, and Ethereal Wave). ---- Gothic Architecture ---- • kzbin.info/www/bejne/rKPHnH9tjp2KntE (General breakdown of what makes up Gothic architecture) ----- Gothic Art ----- • kzbin.info/www/bejne/ooSkdpirac2lZsU ( Explanation of the old style Gothic Art ) ---- Gothic Literature ---- • kzbin.info/www/bejne/fWPVh2yVodCqnJo (General Rundown) • kzbin.info/www/bejne/nIaxpnmCfduJpMk (Goes into more explanation of these characteristics) ---- Gothic Film ---- • kzbin.info/www/bejne/r364m6WinMlmpLc (Mainly composed of trailers for Gothic Films dating back as late as 1960s to the present. If you watched the Gothic Literature links, notice how the characteristics of the literature also are what center in Gothic films. When watching these trailers, take note of the setting, the emotions, and how the characters are portrayed to really understand.) • kzbin.info/www/bejne/emjTpGurqsSkY9k (A List full of Gothic films here on KZbin for anyone curious to watch some of them in full length.)

[@Gothicbride]

I am goth

[@KaiDecadence]

@@Gothicbride .... Okay?

[@jaemelancholy1684]

Can you make a Doomer goth playlist video one day?

[@KaiDecadence]

@@jaemelancholy1684 "Doomer"? I don't get it...

[@jaemelancholy1684]

@@KaiDecadence Just put in Doomer playlists explained on KZbin for a better definition. But a goth playlist would be nice, I'm interested in what songs you listen too.

[@jvttblvck103]

The Worlds End (Movie) has a main character who is dark and obsessed with The Sisters of Mercy Also in the comic Johnny The Homocidal Maniac (comic) has multiple goth characters and have a short non story related comic strip about goths going to the goth club :) I didn’t know about a lot of the characters you mentioned! Amazing video

[@KaiDecadence]

I think I heardo f the World Ends and if that's true then that's cool lol. I've heard of Johnny the Homocidal Maniac but it didn't appeal to me because it just looked like try-hard edgy stuff but I did look it up just to get a basic understanding. I will say this, I'll give them a little credit with the reference to Switchblade Symphony but that's about it, it contains the usual "Dark = Goth" or "Industrial = Goth" thing that I cannot stand when it comes to these characters at times lol. But I'm glad you enjoyed the video regardless. :)

[@jvttblvck103]

Kai Decadence Yeah there is a bit of confusion in the book about it but since it came out in the early 2000s I’d be inclined to give them a pass with mixing up industrial and goth music and such. But the characters in the comic do dress goth, reference goth music, wear ankhs etc. which is pretty good compared to most writer who try to write goth characters

[@KaiDecadence]

@@jvttblvck103 Eh I just cannot play fast and loose with Goth because out of all the music-based subcultures out there, Goth is the one that gets misused and mislabeled the most and it's why all those characters I mentioned towards the end where wrongly categorized as Goth but I will give Johnny a "B" for referencing at least one Goth band.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@MartyrDJ Oh for sure, I'm already well aware of Jhonen and the whole Goth thing when I saw the character Gaz from Invader Zim being touted as a "goth" way back when. He came out and said she never was one and that was all I needed to know that his work is not Goth work, doesn't even seem like he's that into Goth music anyway from the interviews I've read. He was definitely more of a Rivethead which makes since because of the Industrial boom in the 90s when it got mainstream.

[@samanthamcclish]

Kai Decadence My apologies to upset you😅😓

[@Barytyrannus]

This might sound weird, but as a metalhead I find it very validating to know that goths go through the same issues with "posers" that we do. Its like finally another community can understand what we go through. I've always been a champion of "you have to listen to metal to be a metalhead" and yet so often I get called a gatekeeper or an elitist for pointing that out. Metal means something. Its not just "heavy music" its a specific canon of heavy music derived from the style of Black Sabbath. And yet it feels like 90% of the online metal community either primarily listens to alternative rock bands like Slipknot and Korn or post hardcore/metalcore/deathcore bands like Avenged Sevenfold, Lorna Shore, and Suicide Silence. And the ones that do listen to a few actual metal bands only listen to the most popular, surface level ones. And I know that wasn't the main point of your video but its just nice to see that some other communities might understand what we are going through.

[@KaiDecadence]

Yeah it's a pretty big problem within Goth and has been for a decade plus. And I do think that it's worse with Goth because I remember back in the late 2000s, early 2010s if you so much as uttered that Goth is a music-based subculture, you were called an elitist or gatekeeper and so you had all these people who clearly didn't like or listen to Goth music calling themselves goths which is what added all the misappropriation that Goth had received until more people spoke out against that drivel narrative.

[@serenitydeath02]

I love all of those 3 things. I do listen to goth music but I also listen to metal and rock. I'll admit that I did learn a few things from the video. Thank you for making this video so people will learn.

[@KaiDecadence]

Glad you got something out of the video. :)

[@serenitydeath02]

@@KaiDecadence I'm also surprised that you didn't mention Dylan Beekler from Golan The Insatiable though I don't know if you ever watched the show or not.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@serenitydeath02 I've never watched that show but I have seen the character and she'd just fall under the Darkly-Inclined character, not Goth or even Gothic.

[@TiffanyRay]

When people look at dark characters they automatically say "oh that chicks goth" simply for the fact that she wears black and its like No honey nu uh

[@KaiDecadence]

Yep pretty much and as evidence at what I shared towards the end when I got to Darkly-Inclined, it's been happening for nearly 2 decades lol.

[@skylerwalker8889]

Abby is goth. Because she listens to the cure in one episode of NCIS. And there's possibly more in there as well. But I can't remember currently. She dose have a sick car tho.

[@satarathevoodoowitch5144]

I definitely identify as both Goth and Gothic. Love love and will always protect our music. And gothic for my love for the architecture, film and even the art! I’m not much of a literature one!

[@KaiDecadence]

Cool :)

[@nikkili8944]

This video is very good! Informative, well thought out, clearly explained and easily understandable. I also learned something new in terms of the Gothic/Dark/Urban Fantasy topic. So thank you for that clarification!

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks! The whole time I was making this video and noticing that it was getting longer and longer I was like, "Oh crap... I hope it can hold people's attention otherwise I'm F'd" haha. Glad you were able to learn something new :)

[@monikintin.3377]

I 🖤 how you described thoroughly! Very interesting and Makes it clearer the differences. I think I’m into all three. Surprised to see that Lydia wasn’t goth considering the movie is from the 80s, hype of goth culture. But now I understand from what you explained. I think I’m still confused between urban fantasy and darkly inclined. Another interesting find in this video that Interview with the Vampire is Gothic but Queen of the Damn is Dark/urban fantasy because they both came from Anne Rice Vampires Chronicles.

[@KaiDecadence]

Lydia was a tough case but when I really thought critically about her character, I just saw faults with her character as far as the "goth" thing was concerned. For example while it's true that Beetlejuice was made in the 80s when technically the first wave of Goth was in bloom, if Lydia was really meant to be a Goth you'd think they would've had her listening to some Goth music. It may have been the 80s but there were Record players, CD players, and Cassette Tapes (the movie came out in 1988). They could've had Lydia listening to bands like The Cure, Siouxsie and Banshees, Bauhaus, Virign Prunes, or The March Violets in the movie, hell I could've even settled for Joy Division but they didn't. The only thing they really show with Lydia is that she has a likeness for the dark and paranormal. and while all that stuff is cool, it's not what makes someone a Goth like I explained in the video. So when I put two and two together, I just came to the conclusion that Lydia was not a Goth character but a darkly-inclined character. I hope that explanation made sense. I was debating if I should talk about that in the video because I know how popular Lydia is but the video was already long enough and I didn't want to drag it out even further haha. Interview with a Vampire is Gothic because it follows the tropes found in Gothic Literature. Like I mentioned in the video, Gothic Film is a pretty much Gothic Literature on the big screen. Queen of the Damned followed more of the Urban Fantasy trope. Yeah it has vampires but vampires themselves are not Gothic but it's the the themes that can be used towards them that can make them Gothic but Queen of the Damned didn't do that with them.

[@monikintin.3377]

Thank you for the lengthy explanation. That makes more sense now. You are goth but are you also into all three? Is there any goth (character or real person) who is Not into darkly inclined?

[@KaiDecadence]

@@monikintin.3377 Speaking for myself, I am into Darkly-Inclined things and I do like some Gothic Art, Architecture, and Film. I don't really read books so I wouldn't say I'm into Gothic Literature for that reason but I read up on it just to understand what exactly defines the genre and that's how I was able to learn that there are other types of literature that can sometimes get mislabeled as Gothic such as the Dark Fantasy genre with authors like HP Lovecraft who is a "Cosmic Horror" horror writer and not a Gothic one and so on. As for characters or real people, out of the very small list of Goth characters I shared in the video, I can't recall any who weren't into dark things but I have met one Goth who wasn't heavily into Dark stuff.

[@justgween7573]

I checked out MTV's Downtown and dang that's a great show

[@KaiDecadence]

Glad you enjoyed it. It's a really underrated show i think and it was cancelled way too soon.

[@miriamreinhardt8939]

I watched all 13 episodes. Such a shame MTV cancelled it in favor of reality TV

[@KaiDecadence]

@@miriamreinhardt8939 Agreed 100% Downtown had both an interesting story accompanied with music promotion, it was a great show that was perfect for what MTV stood for at the time before it turned into a Reality TV channel (it really shouldn't be called "MTV" anymore, it should be called "RTV")

[@marinamoschberger814]

I need more episodes but...

[@Vanessa-bb2qo]

@@KaiDecadence I mainly watched it because of Serena. She was fascinatingly modest and gorgeous.

[@Wglass90]

You seemed to have covered everything accurately, but there's one thing to really point is that aside from the fact that "Goth" is defined by someone who's a fan of the music genre now, it can also be used to shorten people who are 'Gothic" or are interested in that style. Take this information how you will, but one of my grandmother's best friends during childhood in the '40s was really into the macabre, Gothic Architecture going and sitting in cathedrals, visiting cemeteries, reading Dracula, watching Nosferatu, and Universal's Dracula and Frankenstein at drive-ins, listening to blues music on her record player which by 40s standards was considered creepy to a lot of people especially if they were screaming, writing poetry, actually dressed in the Southern Gothic style wearing black dresses, black sweaters, hats, and maybe even dark make-up every day for a while. She wasn't exactly "beautiful" in the face and had brunette hair. In a school system of about 20-30 students, she stood out and was harassed as a result on a daily basis called "witch" mostly, and it didn't help that it was in the south and very conservative. She was way ahead of her time, and I remember when I briefly met her before she passed away she told me that she at times used "Goth" for short to describe her style or interests despite it being "Gothic" at the time which was 30+ years before there was a subculture. Her experiences and stories were quite amazing and inspirational to me, and made me wonder that it could easily apply to people who have similar experiences now in modern times and don't listen to Goth Rock. Either way, I feel there will always be confusion among the public who just assume anyone who's darkly-inclined or "Goth" (Fan of Gothic Rock), Gothic-inclined are the same being that all three are deeply connected to each to an extent even though there is also a distinction, and that's just interests alone. The music itself is another topic since I've seen people call New-Wave artists 'Goth' which has been a thing since at least the 80s when "Goth clubs" played a lot of New-Wave music in addition to the common post-punk genre, and there were people who were fans of both. 90s only made it worse when you saw alleged "Goths" (assuming by looks)) attending Type O Negative, Marilyn Manson, Nine Inch Nails, Rammstein, Rob Zombie and various other Shock Rock, Industrial and Gothic Metal artists concerts. One of my personal pet peeves personally is how S&M & BDSM gets lumped into the stereotypes of being part of the Goth Subculture when in reality based on personal experiences it seems more common just among fetishists or the Metal subculture and darkly-inclined metal girls or Satanists if anything if we're associating it with a form of music culture here. Not to say that Goths can't be interested in it as well because I'm certain some are, but it has very little to being a 'Goth'.

[@gothsash9183]

About time someone talked about this, great vid! 🖤

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks! It really needed to be done haha.

[@kawaiicookiuwu3322]

Great video, thanks I actually am making a book about goth/gothic characters. Trying to focus more on interpreting Goth and Gothic into their personalities and less on their style while mixing it. I knew it was about the music, and books but I didn't know it was so simple. Edit: without using the stereotypes of course.

[@KaiDecadence]

While I understand what you mean, I really need to stress this. "Goth" and "Gothic" are not personalities so I mean... Unless you're talking about them having interest in their respective things like the Goth character being into Goth music or the Gothic character being interested in Gothic Literature or your world is set in a Gothic setting. IF you don't mean the later than I highly suggest not worrying about the personality because as I've explained in the video, there is no such thing as a "Goth" or "Gothic" personality.

[@RH-dx3io]

I had a brief understanding between Goth, gothic, and darkly inclined, but this video definitely helped to fully grasp what each of these are and the differences, so thanks a lot! After watching this video I also found i have an interest for all 3. I had always leaned towards darkly inclined things growing up and had started checking out a couple of goth bands not too long ago, the sisters of mercy really sucked me in. Now I’ve recently gotten into gothic films and literature since I spend a lot of my free time watching movies and reading, so I’ll definitely be checking out some of the stuff you added in here because I’ve been looking for some recommendations lol

[@diandradeeke]

i was considered to be goth from age 13 on by other people. however, i was just "darkly inclined" and i was just listening to rock/metal and industrial. eventually i decided to go into the gothic-subculture when i was 21.

[@dreryn]

I’m so thankful that my friend introduced me to goth music, now I’m a baby bat just exploring subculture and the people within the community. 🦇✨

[@KaiDecadence]

That's great to hear 😊

[@Anonymous-wb3nz]

Welcome!!

[@VampDaddysSpookyGothAdventures]

Would you consider the vampires (David Bowie and Catherine Deneuve) from 'The Hunger' as goth characters, since the movie opens with them watching Bauhaus play 'Bela Lugosi's Dead' live?

[@KaiDecadence]

I've never seen the movie but yes I would consider them Goths based on that as it implies that they are into Goth music. I give movies a bit of a slide because there's only so much you can put into a movie as opposed to a series that'll have episodes and give more time to learn about a character.

[@sylph8005]

I'm pretty sure they're not watching Bela Lugosi's Dead. Either other characters are, who may or may not be vampires, or it's just a thing being shown to the IRL audience. Either way, from what I saw in the clip, Bowie and Deneuve are driving and then having sex during that song, and they cut away from the song when that happens. Something worth noting, however, is that Bowie was one of Peter Murphy's biggest inspirations

[@VampDaddysSpookyGothAdventures]

@@sylph8005 Right. The idea is that they're at a club hunting "prey" for food and fun. Bauhaus just happens to be playing while they're there and it's an obvious nod to Dracula and macabre with what song is playing. But stylistically, they check boxes of being goth. Maybe Tony Scott is asking the audience to believe that goths are just easier targets to be hunted by vampires? I don't know, the inclusion of the band and the fact that the main characters seem rather at home at a goth nightclub says a little something in my opinion. If nothing else, they dressed the part. Up until the pandemic, we had one woman in our local scene who's entire wardrobe is based around Deneuve's character.

[@fangworl5170]

Thank you for teaching me more on these subcultures I'd consider myself somewhere between gothic and darkly-inclined, leaning more towards the DI side of the coin

[@KaiDecadence]

Glad the video helped :)

[@little-miss-horror6036]

Ah you did the thing :DD I always thought about talking about this subject too, but I think you nailed it here. I love how you mentioned just think of goth and gothic as a further instinciton of Darkly Inclined. Also, the term Urban Fantasy is new to me but I'm glad to know about that genre since this original project I'm working on with friends has themes like this. (I do have a goth character as well as some darkly inclined ones here and I do want to reference some goth music) Also I never noticed The Craft had a Siouxsee and The Banshees song until you played that clip, makes me appreciate that film even more even if it was one scene. I may share this with some friends that want to make goth characters so they get a better idea and how to not make them painfully generic stereotype.

[@KaiDecadence]

Haha yep, finally got around to it. And yep Goth and Gothic are just further distinctions of Darkly-Inclined at the end of the day. As for Urban Fantasy, that was new to me too but as I read up more on it, it made a lot a sense. Other shows that are Urban Fantasy that I didn't share in the video are shows like Charmed and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Just taking supernatural elements and putting them in an urban/modern setting. The concept of what if the supernatural was real in the real world type of deal. And same with The Craft, I actually didn't notice it myself until a friend shared that with me years ago haha. Good luck with your story, you already know some Goth music so you're a step in the right direction if you're looking to make a legitimate Goth character and since your story is essentially Urban Fantasy, you can even base the character in real life and make nods to real Goth bands if you wanted to. That or just go the South Park way where they put a spin on the band name like how instead of Bauhaus, they called them "Blauhaus" lol And sure thing, the video is meant to help people better understand and hopefully make better written characters be them Goth, Gothic, or Darkly-Inclined so feel free to share with friends. :D

[@KhayJayArt]

I didn't even know there was a difference between goth and Gothic. This was very informative 👌

[@KaiDecadence]

A lot of people don't and that's what this video is here to help correct haha. Glad you enjoyed the video~

[@w0y4k15]

Don't mind me. Just a punk rocker kid that doesn't know what's going on.

[@bbtb785]

That is so Punk of you to say here. Me too!

[@vinems7434]

Technically goth are post punk

[@Reed5016]

I’m a metalhead who also has no idea what’s going on here.

[@lillianblack8749]

Industrial and goth are different but a lot of goth people I have met like both.

[@KaiDecadence]

And that's fine. You can be a Goth and like non-Goth things. But just because a Goth happens to like Industrial, it doesn't make Industrial Goth by default, it's always been its own separate thing and that's where I was getting at in the video.

[@Anonymous-wb3nz]

I'm a Goth who likes some Industrial music. Industrial still isn't Goth though.

[@indigoblur]

Super late, but as a huge Total Drama fan, I wanted to confirm that Gwen is actually an emo! Her World Tour/Season 3 biography mentions her being into emo and punk; no mention of goth. I wish more fans would call her as such, but unfortunately I don't see that happening any time soon. Also, Lucy from Loud House may actually be goth. A recent episode has shown her room to have a picture that looks eerily similar to Siouxsie and the Banshees' logo. I could be wrong though.

[@KaiDecadence]

Yeah I never looked at her bio as I was just going by how her character was portrayed in the show so I gave the bio a look and yep, they wrote that she was into Emo and Punk. So yeah she is a Darkly-Inclined (her likeness for the macabre and dark) Emo/Punk. It's just a shame that we never got to see scenes/clips of her listening to music(or heck, attending a Punk gig with Duncan or something) and hearing what she's listening to but considering the time when the show came out, yeah I can see the Emo thing being a fair thing. Anyway yeah, she's not a Goth. As for Lucy Loud, I haven't seen this episode and I can't seem to find any picture resource so I'm not sure. I'll have to watch to see in the future but as of right now, yeah no, just darkly-inclined though a Gothic Literature fan.

[@darlalathan6143]

Thanks for clarifying all that! I seem to check all the boxes, since my favorite poet is Edgar Allen Poe, I read "Dracula" in Catholic school, dress in black like other Goths and like darkwave stuff like Bauhaus and Siouxsie and the Banshees but I'm also a rivethead and headbanger, who likes Rammstein and Cradle of Filth. I also loved "The Craft," Raven, "Beetlejuice's" Emily Deetz, "Daria" and the Addams Family movies equally. I'm pretty fond of Gothic architecture and dark fantasy, too.

[@KaiDecadence]

Well about the "Gothic-Inclined" thing, the actual term for people who like Gothic Literature is "Dark Romantic" and well honestly, I feel like the only way one can be an authentic Dark Romantic is if they have immersed themselves in the Gothic Literature genre and read a good few Gothic novels and I'm talking more than just Dracula and Frankenstein because if that's the extent of Gothic Literature one has read, that's just not a big enough sample size to see if one really likes the Gothic literature genre, it just means one is a fan of those particular stories but sinking your teeth into other Gothic novels (or film even) can really confirm if one really likes this genre of literature and film. This is why I personally would never call myself a Dark Romantic because I just haven't read many Gothic novels (I'm just not a big novel reader) or seen many Gothic films (I have only seen 3 so far). So the main thing to take away with this is have you actually read a good many Gothic novels or seen a good few Gothic films? If not then I wouldn't personally consider you a Dark Romantic 𝐁𝐔𝐓 more likely a beginner and would encourage you to try out some more novels and films that the genre has to offer.

[@menace_bunny]

Really great video! Thanks for explaining things so clearly; really enjoyed it. 🖤🖤🖤

[@KaiDecadence]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@aradiasnowdon7016]

This was a very informative video, thanks for posting! I wish this video existed sooner, I've been exploring the goth subculture for about a year now and have been really into the music, but everyone is so vague about these terms (probably to avoid being called elitists). Throughout school I was called a goth and would get annoyed because I listened to punk music, not goth. Idk why the goth label is slapped on anything and everything dark.

[@KaiDecadence]

You're very welcome. I was surprised that a video like this wasn't made sooner myself but the very few videos that did try to touch on this topic, they just got things wrong with it and I just felt that hey, if no one else will do it and be truthful about the subject, I should just try my hand at it. There are some parts I wish I could've expanded more on (which I may do for another video) but the video was long enough and I didn't want to draw out longer. And you're right, the reason why some people can be so vague about explaining Goth is because A), they don't want to sound elitist (because these days if you so much as mention Goth is music-based, you have people pulling the "Elitist" or "Gatekeeper" card nonsense) or B), they themselves probably don't know a whole lot about it.

[@KreeZafi]

Good video with good examples, both for characters and things like music, literature, movies etc. Definitely agree with that last point that people shouldn't be insulted by being non-goth. You can still like whatever you like, dark interests are not exclusive to goths. Something else I think is important though is that goths can and do like more things than just goth stuff. For instance, industrial and metal are not goth, but many goths ALSO like one or both of those :)

[@KaiDecadence]

But see I don't just say that Goths ONLY like Goth music and Darkly-Inclined things, no one ever says that and it's just something that people like to twist words around when they hear the phrase "Goths listen to Goth music". It's an overreaction because where do these people see "ONLY" in that phrase? lol That's all I mean. But when it comes to having "Goth" characters in media, you need to showcase that even if they have other interests, they still like Goth music (in the case for Goth) and that is where most of these characters who are really just darkly-inclined get wrong haha.

[@lizabethhampton4537]

This is the exact kind of video I needed to find during the initial phases of working on my latest project.

[@KaiDecadence]

Glad to hear the video was helpful!

[@rebellioustrashpanda4289]

ok. this is wonderful. i swear i get asked if i'm emo or goth all the time just because i wear mostly black and im not social. im darkly inclined. i like darker things. but im not goth or emo. or gothic. this made me feel better. as well as the music mention beause i listen to nu metal, heavy rock, metal, ect. so now any of my more goth like characters will have a better representation.

[@KaiDecadence]

I'm glad the video helped. Try not to let others get to you, the truth is that most people do not know what Goth actually is, they just think it's anyone who wears black clothing and is more introverted but that's just not true and this video was here to help clear things up lol

[@ReneeSitra]

Very nice to have you back kai

[@KaiDecadence]

Thank you :)

[@SWilde-ws9qg]

I feel like creators tried to make the dark characters goth but failed due to lack of research which is kinda dissapointing. For example Mandy from GAOBAM mentioned that she owns posters of gothic metal bands (which isn't shown in the show but whatever), Gwen from Total Drama Island was called goth by other characters on many occasions. It's a pity because I really want to hear more Joy Division on tv xD

[@KaiDecadence]

Right, I remember that line from Mandy and even then, Gothic Metal is not Goth music and liking that kinda music doesn't make you Goth, it makes you a Metalhead. And yeah, I give Gwen some points because the creators had the sense to not outright call her a Goth because she so obviously isn't to actual Goths. She's just a Darkly-Inclined character who is possible Emo and/or Punk going off how in her World Tour biography, hers mentioned that she liked Emo and Punk music. And yeah as I demonstrated in my video, it's a very amount of characters who actually are Goth while an overwhelming majority are Darkly-Inclined.

[@firestonegraywolf]

Damn dude your character picks gave me all kinds of nostalgia. As for the labels , who cares ? I'm just dark ..I wouldn't say I'm goth , I love punk and alternative subculture . Sometimes I feel emo ...I just love it all

[@KaiDecadence]

The distinctions were made so people can understand the difference between goth and darkly-inclined, purely for education purposes. Outside of that, it's not a big deal.

[@ReinZeroTV]

off topic but i love ur voice, you can tell ur really passionate and engaging!

[@KaiDecadence]

Haha thank you :)

[@harbingersev-oh-wohne]

Love that you made this, it was very needed

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks!

[@ademcanvaner2567]

Thank you so much for the clarification! I am going to delete the other comment so that the misinformation doesn't mislead anyone. Like I said about Edward, I just had to look for a pattern when I noticed that the movie lacked so many of the gothic elements. Here is your reply about the information so we can keep it archived: "Beauty and the Beast is a Gothic story. It's Gothic Romance and follows the typical tropes that fall in line with Gothic literature. Damsel/Heroine (Belle) goes to live in a castle that is filled with mysteries and a dark secret while having to live with a monster (The Beast) who is pretty much a byronic hero only for them to fall in love while more of the castle's mysteries are uncovered. Also Gothic Literature was invented in 1764, not the 19th century. And I was talking about the story concept of Beauty and Beast which was a Gothic Romance novel and even the original 1991 Disney film retains the story but just adds a bit more fantasy to it giving more personality to the talking objects. On Edward Scissorhands and just Frankenstein as a whole. Frankenstein is actually considered more of a Science-Fiction story (the first ever Sci-Fi novel) with a Gothic atmosphere. The Gothic doesn't come from the monster (Frankenstein) but the desolate, isolated, ominous atmosphere/location. In the case of Edward Scissorhands, it doesn't really take place at the scientist's home as Edward spends most of his time interacting with the people in the town which is why it wasn't a Gothic film. It could've been if Kim actually had to live in that mansion and explore it just like what Belle did in Beauty and the Beast but that didn't happen. As for Elvira, yes she would technically be a Metalhead but she is a Gothic icon. Her character concept was into the Gothic. In fact her second film "Elvira's Haunted Hills" from 2001 was a Gothic comedy that spoofed classic Gothic films from House of Usher, The Raven, and The Tomb of Ligeia. So yes, Elvira totally counts as a Gothic character (again read Gothic, not Goth). In fact, she would be a Gothic-inclined Metalhead." -Kai Decadence

[@KaiDecadence]

No problem :)

[@ademcanvaner2567]

@@KaiDecadence I would also like your thoughts on this since it was written before 1764: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauty_and_the_Beast

[@bonnieseiwell4240]

@@ademcanvaner2567 The fairy tale itself would probably not be considered a Gothic if only because it was written before 1764. Maybe Fantasy/Fairytale that is sort of a Proto-Gothic as it has a similar plot/story-line to what would become the major plot of Gothic novels. Excepting the major difference that the young woman (or person) would be placed in danger due to whatever mystery surrounds the castle/house they are staying in. Something pre-Gothic that may have influenced Gothic. Some of the films played a bit more on those similarities and might seem darker and like they have more of a Gothic atmosphere due to music/sound, and actual imagery that may have been influenced by Gothic films. A filmmaker can add in more elements from the Gothic genre and thus make the films more Gothic than the original story would have been. Some of the night time scenes of the castle in the Disney version are very dark and always reminded me of some of the outside shots of the castles/mansions in Gothic Horror. The 1962 film again was directed by Edward L. Cahn and while it's not overly dark and atmospheric in imagery is considered by many critics to be a Gothic, just not a very good one. Which is kind of interesting because Edward L. Cahn had a background in horror films. There were a lot of "Gothic" novels in the 1960s and 1970s that were the same way. They were technically Gothic, but the author failed on creating the right amount of atmosphere and mystery. I remember reading the man who did the makeup for the beast in Cahn version was also the same man who did the makeup for the original Wolfman. And yes, in the 1962 version the Beast is a man cursed to turn into a werewolf at night. I don't know if Cahn intended the film to be a Gothic or just thought that would be an interesting change, but it's definitely referred to as basically a bad Gothic.

[@ademcanvaner2567]

@@bonnieseiwell4240 Thank you, Bonnie. It makes more sense now. =)

[@itskitty808]

Whoa! I had no idea that my favorite "goth" characters aren't actually goth. Thank you for this! I learned a lot from this video. (I know I sound sarcastic...please don't kill me!!)

[@KaiDecadence]

No one dies on this channel LOL I'm glad this video helped explain things, believe me I was just as shocked as you were when I made this realization about these characters and how misconstrued the term "Goth" was when it came to "Goth" characters and how there really aren't all that many actual Goth characters at all.

[@DizzyD1693]

Love ya Chanel o so much keep up the darkly delightful work my guy!!!🦇🖤❤️🖤❤️🖤🦇🦇

[@rez4998]

hey your channel is so underrated i love your content!

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks!

[@nishidohellhillsruler6731]

Today I learnt I'm dark inclined, although I do enjoy gothic things. Ask me about vampires, I studied them in college ;)

[@RavenclawSeer]

I guess a dark character is easier for me to write because it's kinda like me. I just like dark and witchy stuff.

[@KaiDecadence]

Yep, sounds like making a Darkly-Inclined character would be a good fit going by that criteria. I just hope the video made sense in my explanation lol

[@RavenclawSeer]

@@KaiDecadence Some of it was a lot of information at once but I got it. Many people by that measure are dark or gothic but not goth. I've always liked darker mysterious characters myself. The hex girls are dark and Wiccan which is kinda cool. Sam from Danny Phantom just felt more moody and dark than anything to me. And Rogue from X-Men Evolution kinda got me interested in the fashion and darker literature. I don't dress a particular way though. I never thought about it but maybe I should consider a dark character. So far everyone I write despite diversity is normal with no dark side proclivity. Thanks. You made me think.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@RavenclawSeer Yeah that was actually kinda the point of the video. I wanted to show just how misconstrued Goth has become over the last 2 decades with lots of things being tagged "Goth" when it never was. I wanted to highlight that Goth has an actual meaning, that all these terms do and to explain with detail what sets them apart from one another. I'm not sure if all the Hex Girls are Wiccan, I think it was only Sally (Thorn) who was and even then, the movie got things wrong like the whole "Wiccan blood" thing. There's no such thing. "Wicca" is a religion, not something that's born in your blood... Sam is probably the biggest offender of what can come off as a poser Goth to be honest and it's why she's just a darkly-inclined character who was mishandled since Butch clearly had no clue about actual Goth after hearing what he said in that 10 years design video where he talked about what went into the conception of the character's creations. And Rogue kinda had a small nod with the Dracula Novel towards Gothic literature but it's a shame they didn't show more of her partaking in things that she was interested in. And I'd so go for it. Darkly-Inclined characters are pretty easy to write for as you've seen. It's "Goth" and "Gothic" that certain criteria must be met in order for them to be authentic and taken seriously. You're welcome.

[@RavenclawSeer]

@@KaiDecadence Thanks for the discussion and yeah you're right. They got Wiccan wrong. Wiccan blood no. Blood from an old accused witch? Maybe. Wicca as a religion? Okay. Wicca as a heritage? Again no. Haha. They could have at least made Thorn a Wiccan with a rare family name dating back to the witch trials... But no... Too interesting for writing. That could have led to a good character. A woman descended from women wronged by a witch hunt, devoted to The Craft as she sees, and shows you can be dark but good too. Oh well, that may be too complicated. Let me stop before I go on. Haha. Peace

[@KaiDecadence]

@@RavenclawSeer Yes in hindsight while the movie was fun and all, you have to turn your brain off when it comes to that stuff because they made so many mistakes with the handling of Wicca. But yet despite that, I still wouldn't be opposed to a Hex Girls spinoff show lol

[@VladTepes_esti.un.bizonpu]

i like how if you search "goth definition" it says its a type of music and non goths still wanna say it isn't, they fr having an argument with the dictionary

[@emnruby5184]

I been trying to learn about goth for a few months now, even though I’m still confused about goth music, this video is the only one that have taught me a lot and I have found out my tastes falls more in to darkly inclined and a bit in to gothic. Thank you! 😃

[@KaiDecadence]

I'm happy to hear the video helped. If you find that Goth music just isn't up your alley, that's fine and it's important to remember that you don't have to be a goth to like darkly-inclined things. But yeah thanks again for watching!

[@emnruby5184]

@@KaiDecadence I’m subscribed now 😁

[@maddiesenpainotice9991]

Think for teaching me on this subject. I never really knew the different difference all I knew was darkness was a main thing but turn out it three different types. Glad I can make a goth or gothic character with more of a idea this does make me wanna learn more.

[@KaiDecadence]

Happy to hear the video helped!

[@emrysthefirst7778]

straight facts

[@Gavengelica]

This is such a refreshing video. And well researched too. Just as I gave up looking for one like this. You did it, you have my thanks. It's so nice to see someone acknowledge darkly inclined and the differences between goth and gothic.

[@KaiDecadence]

You're very welcome :)

[@Gavengelica]

@@KaiDecadence I'll be sure to share it around.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@Gavengelica Thanks!

[@urmomlol8013]

Can someone be both goth and Gothic? For instance listening to the music but also enjoying Gothic literature, architecture, etc?

[@KaiDecadence]

Sure.

[@Anonymous-wb3nz]

Yes! I myself am both. I enjoy Goth music and Gothic literature, architecture, ect.

[@juratory8876]

Super late, but this was a good video! After watching it, I refer to myself now as darkly inclined. I dress dark and am attracted to creepy or scary things, but I mostly listen to heavy metal, metalcore, and punk rock, and rarely listen to goth music. Thank you for the video!

[@KaiDecadence]

No problem, I'm glad the video helped!

[@violetchristophe]

It's been a while since I've watched NCIS, but I thought Abby Sciuto had "appropriately goth" music in the background from time to time. I think it may have been a song by Collide or something. Perhaps it was something of the Industrial genre, I don't remember so clearly what it was... Just that my younger self thought: "hey, it's goth music!". I may have been wrong.

[@KaiDecadence]

Collida isn't a Goth band, they are an Industrial band and Industrial music =/= Goth music. While doing this video, I did peruse the music that was played during the Abby sections (someone made a list of most of the music that played for her) and 99% of the music was Industrial music. She only had one goth song that played for her and it was a Cure song but at this point, she's just a straight up Rivethead because of all the Industrial music they had her character listen to.

[@violetchristophe]

@@KaiDecadence I did remember most of it sounding more industrial, compared to what I later learned goth to be. Collide is interesting in their sound. According Wikipedia they fall into industrial as the first listed genre and then one of the 3 others listed was darkwave. In my peusial of their music, some of it seemed to have a different vibe than what I usually get from industrial. Certainly electronic and synth elements the whole way through, but less fast paced driving beat that seems to me like the pulse of industrial. Music genres are interesting in how they aren't always so clearly cut and formulaic, primarily because of artist interpretation... which inevidently leads to subgenre I guess. Thanks for the video and reply.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@violetchristophe Believe me, Wikipedia isn't always the best source and Collide is definitely not Darkwave. Darkwave is pretty much Goth rock with Synth mixed in. Bands like Clan of Xymox, The Frozen Autumn, Switchblade Symphony, and Diva Destruction are some examples of Darkwave. The problem with some people is that they don't understand what Darkwave is and think that any band that has a dark look and makes electronic music that it automatically makes it Darkwave but far too often a lot of these bands are just Industrial, EBM, or Futurepop and the later two are not Goth sub-genres. I hope this makes sense. If Collide was using Goth style guitar in their sound then they would be Darkwave but they don't, they either use just pulsing electronic beats with the synth or Industrial Rock.

[@violetchristophe]

@@KaiDecadence You're right... There is a lack of echoey jangly kind of surf-guitar sound, which is one of the elements in goth. I've heard them described as Trip-Hop too, which is something different. I'm still figuring it out as I sift through the hordes of music available on Spotify.

[@darialvr]

i'm so glad you mentioned the craft! it's my favorite movie. fairuza balk was meant for nancy, and i can imagine you would slay in her outfits. also love the in-depth essay video, altho it's not my type of content, you make it more interesting. luv u goth queen ♡

[@KaiDecadence]

Aw thank you :D

[@miriamreinhardt8939]

Thanks for the info! I plan on writing an Urban Fantasy novel with local Goth bands and a variety of Goth characters in a big city that only has a very underground scene so your advice might be very helpful

[@KaiDecadence]

Glad the video helped :)

[@Nomad1979]

I politely told someone that "goth is just a music based Subculture that came from late 70s post-punk and the look was inspired by those within the scene at the time. The only requirement to be goth was to be into goth rock, death rock, darkwave, coldwave and ethereal wave. The music and goth Subculture came directly from the music. Goths are just a type of music fan like metal heads, emos, punk rockers, rivetheads etc. She responded with this "To summarize, you are wrong, goth Subculture encompasses literature, music, architecture, fashion, philosophy, politics and religion. Goth is a lifestyle. Don't make such a deep Subculture so shallow, goths are more than just music." She also thought black metal and emo is goth. She also said that you don't need to be a into metal or emo music to be a metal head or emo or goth. she wouldn't even try to counter my arguments and when i went into more detail on why she is wrong she resorted to insults and blocked me. I don't know how you have the patience to deal with these people.

[@KaiDecadence]

Her resorting to insults and eventually blocking you showed that she had no real arguments to back up her (wrong) claims. And honestly these days, I don't have as much patience to deal with people like this like I used to so I take the "pick your own battles" approach. If I can sense that the person is not there to actually listen and engage, I just don't bother lol.

[@Nomad1979]

​@@KaiDecadenceThank you. I always recommend your videos to baby bats getting into goth subculture. Hope all this doesn't come across as a rant but as for people considering goth a "political movement" and a "lifestyle", what do you have to say to these two things? If you don't mind me asking. I personally think its wrong for these people telling me to conform to their personal ideology to be a certain music fan but ironically they have the nerve to call me a gatekeeper for saying "anyone can be goth only if they're a fan of the music." I also tell these people "only a very very small amount of goth musicians have been political but these musicians are just individuals with their own personal beliefs and isn't necessary to adopt it." Goth has for the most part been apolitical and not about "working with other people to bring about a change in society" (social activism)

[@KaiDecadence]

@@Nomad1979 Sorry for the late response but to answer your question. What do I think of goth being considered a political movement? I disagree with that. I get that when the scene started in the 1980s, it was during the time of staunch conservatism that was not accepting at all of things that went against their religious and traditionalist beliefs. It made sense why during that time, especially during the Satanic Panic phenomenon, most goths were democrats or libertarians because of how close-minded that time was but in the modern day? I don't think it's necessarily true anymore because some conservatives have become a bit more open-minded when it comes to the alternative subcultures compared to 30 years ago. I'm not a conservative myself (contrary to what people say about me) but I don't think it's fair to say someone is not allowed to participate in a music-based scene just because of their political beliefs. Music is for everyone to enjoy. I overall think you had it right, goth is apolitical and whatever politics a goth may have, be it a musician or a fan of the music, plays no defining factor on the subculture as a whole. As for the "lifestyle" thing, I don't think goth is a "lifestyle". It's pretty obvious what people mean when they say this as they believe that liking to wear all black, being into the dark aesthetic in terms of home decor, and being obsessed with horror is a "goth" thing when it is not. Because you can be someone into all these things but not be into goth music and that would be the difference between someone who is goth vs someone who is darkly-inclined (or "dark alternative"). So unless they mean someone who does something like travel to many different goth concerts in a van or something (that would be pretty interesting, won't lie lol), I don't think it's a "lifestyle", just an interest.

[@Jessinking]

i always thought lulu from ff xvii(ONE OF THE BEST FF PERIOD) was just a witch myself

[@KaiDecadence]

Hm I think you mean Final Fantasy X? She wasn't in XVII but yeah, definitely more of a witch if anything.

[@LazyFilmMaker]

Thank you! I've been trying to explain characters like Sam and Jade are more Hot Topic than Goth for years!

[@KaiDecadence]

"More Hot Topic" Haha. Well that's one way to put it but pretty much lol

[@ASMRyouVEGANyet]

Thanks. Instead of me taking 30+ minutes to explain this to confused people, I can show them this video!

[@KaiDecadence]

If that is what you would like to do, sure thing. It's part of the reason why I made this video so I could redirect people who are curious about the difference to a visual video instead of reading a long wall of text lol.

[@mikeira]

Thank you for this video! I describe myself as gothic since I love gothic literature, movies, architecture, etc. but also I'm just darkly inclined cause I love everything dark, dark aesthetics, fashion, etc. I'm definitely not goth tho, cause I'm a metalhead, I only like a few goth songs. You have described the difference very well.

[@KaiDecadence]

Glad the video helped :)

[@jennifervan75]

So do you need to be a super fan of goth music/gothic things to be considered one of them,or are you one of those 2 if you just enjoy some of it from each category?

[@KaiDecadence]

Good question. To answer, I'll start with Goth and then Gothic. For Goth, you don't have to be a super fan of the music in the sense that you need to know and have likeness for every single Goth band in existence because that is just... Not really realistic because there are a lot of Goth bands out there. but what you need to have is at least a sizeable amount of likes and the personal base level appreciation that you at least enjoy the sound of it, enough so that you don't feel uncomfortable talking about it with other Goths in the scene. But like for example, if you're only into like 3 bands (usually what I've seen happen isThe Sisters of Mercy, The Cure - Who's work isn't all Goth music -, Siouxsie and the Banshees, or Bauhaus) and you only have like 3-10 favorite songs... Then no, you're not really a "fan" fan because all you did was pretty much dip your toes into the genre and then got out, never looking back into it again. I mean it's like this. Say you see someone calling themselves a Metalhead and the only Metal band they liked was Metallica and they only liked 2 songs from them like say "Enter Sandman" and "One" and that was the extent of their Metal library yet they were still adamant to call themselves a Metalhead. Would you honestly consider this person a Metalhead? But anyway yeah, that's really all that's needed for Goth. Just like the music, have some bands & songs you like. Goth is a music-based scene and in order to be a music-based scene term, you have to like what it's centered around. It doesn't have to be the ONLY thing you like but it should be included among the things or in this case, the music you like. I'll use myself for example. While I love goth music, it's not the primary genre of music I listen to. That genre would be Alternative Rock. But amongst my Alternative rock faves, I also have Goth music included in my music collection. I'm actually gonna be talking more about this kind of thing in a future video so stay tuned. As for Gothic, it's the same thing where in order to be as such, you need to have likeness for all of at one of the following things I mentioned in the video (Literature, Architecture, Art, and Film). For Literature, I'm just gonna say this. Just because someone read Bram Stoker's Dracula & Edgar Allan Poe poetry, it doesn't necessarily make them Gothic-Inclined because the truth of the matter is that there is a lot of Gothic literature out there waiting to be read. Again you don't have to read every single Gothic novel but at the very least, try out some other Gothic literature novels outside of the mainstream go-to ones (Dracula, Edgar Allan Poe, and Mary Shelley's Frankenstein) because something I see is that people who say they are fans of Gothic literature only read those books and never ventured out, reading the same stuff over and over again while not trying out other novels within the genre and believe me, there is a lot to choose from. It just goes back to the dipping toe thing I mentioned with the music. With architecture, I think one becomes a fan of it when they know what the architecture looks like, bonus if they can remember the names of certain Gothic architectural monuments. For Film, it's the same as Literature, just acquire some favorite Gothic films and have the base minimum of enjoying what the films have to offer. Now if you're someone who happens to like both Goth music and Gothic literature, you're technically both. My friend who is really into both Goth music & Gothic Literature, Architecture, and Film, she just alternates between the two things depending on where she is. Like she won't say she's "Gothic-inclined" when going to a Goth concert lol I hope this all makes sense. Though all I explained is just for real life, when it comes to fiction, that is when bare-minimum is more acceptable, mostly in films because there's only so much you can put into a film whereas with series', you have more time to branch out a character and their interests.

[@itskitty808]

@@KaiDecadence I was going to ask you about listening to only goth music as a requirement, but you just answered my question in this comment. Thanks :)

[@KaiDecadence]

@@itskitty808 Glad you got your answer. You don't ONLY have to listen to Goth music but you at least have to listen to Goth music alongside the music you already listen to~

[@itskitty808]

@@KaiDecadence that makes me feel better bad listening to metal alongside the cure and joy division.

[@KaminariHouse]

This was a _fantastic_ video! I had no idea there was a difference between these things. Until now, I thought Goth was just shorthand for Gothic. But, it makes sense now that I've thought about it while watching this. As someone who is creating a character meant to represent Gothic Metal, this is extremely helpful. Definitely glad I decided to click on this while researching. I'll be coming back to this often.

[@KaiDecadence]

I'm happy this video helped but I just need to reiterate one important thing you said. "Goth Metal". "Goth Metal" is not a thing, I think what you mean is "Gothic Metal" and keep in mind that Gothic Metal has no relation to Goth music, it's a metal sub-genre, not a Goth one so if you do make a character who enjoys Gothic Metal, just be aware that this just makes them a Metalhead, not a Goth.

[@KaminariHouse]

@@KaiDecadence That _is_ what I meant. It was typo, and I wasn't around to edit it. And ahh, so Gothic Metal has Goth _elements_ in it, but is ultimately unrelated to Goth music. Got it.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@KaminariHouse Actually no, Gothic Metal does not have any Goth elements in it. You have to keep in mind that Goth is not the same as Gothic. Gothic is literary and description-based term like I said in the video as it describes a certain medium. Goth music on the other hand is a specific music sound that takes from Post-Punk. Gothic Metal is just Metal music that adds in a bit of classical instruments and the lyrical content references media from Gothic Literature and Film. But just because a band's lyrics reference Gothic Literature & Gothic Film, that doesn't make it Goth because Goth is not a lyrical style, it's all about the way the instruments are played and Gothic Metal doesn't use any Goth Rock elements at all hence why it's not a Goth genre of music and is a Metal Sub-genre. Does that make sense?

[@josta59]

Hi, Kai. Love your videos. I was surprised you don't think Eric Draven of The Crow is goth. Have you read the graphic novel the movie was based on? It includes the lyrics to an entire song by The Cure, and The Cure wrote a new song for the film. Love among the undead is a big theme of the story, which is a pretty gothic theme if you ask me, descended from Bram Stoker. Eric's band, Hangman's Joke, sounds pretty goth when his record is played during the film.

[@KaiDecadence]

Okay I was kinda anticipating this. To get this out of the way, my grouping was only to the movie, I had not read the comic and I was merely talking about the movie itself. The Cure's lyrics are irrelevant here because Goth music is not about lyrics, it's about sound structure because any song from any genre can sound dark, moody, or depressing. Now I had to watch the intro scene again and Eric's band was a heavy Metal band, not a Goth rock band. And just because the soundtrack had one Cure song, the overwhelming music selection was just alternative rock (with the exception of Nine Inch Nails = Industrial). Also to note that in the 90s, that is when The Cure moved away from Goth were making alternative rock music as their last Goth album was released in 1989 and they moved away from the genre. So taking all this into account, no I don't consider Eric a Goth character. The whole situation is just like Queen of The Damned where people were wrongly labeling Lestat's band as "goth" when it was actually just Hard rock.

[@Aster_Risk]

This video is so good and it looks like it's helping a lot of people. Also, I love Gypsy 83 so much.

[@KaiDecadence]

Yep, it was meant to educate and help people learn how to make authentic characters that aren't misappropriations. :)

[@ReneeSitra]

Bloodborne is definitely a gothic game The structure of the plot is that of a gothic horror, it has classic gothic horror creatures everywhere within the game, their's gothic architecture literally everywhere you look. although the second half of the game is more of a lovecraftian story I believe the gothic elements littered throughout the game is enough to classify it as a bonifide gothic game. It's not a big deal obviously I just love that game too much lol But this is a damned good video regardless Easily one of your best 🖤

[@KaiDecadence]

Yes, the first few half of the game follows traditional Gothic Horror until it just becomes outright Lovecraft / Cosmic Horror (forgot to bring up that genre). But I just don't consider it a Goth because the Lovecraftian just vastly swamps it and for the sake of the video just getting right down to it, it was just best to categorize it in the Dark Fantasy genre with the implications of Lovecradt (Because Lovecraft is not Gothic, it's merely an extension of Dark Fantasy). And I just cannot play fast and loose. But that said, if people rightfully point out that the first half of the game is Gothic, I wouldn't disagree, only if they say the game as a whole is because that just isn't true. But thank you :)

[@Aster_Risk]

@@KaiDecadence I definitely haven't heard many people refer to the game as goth. It was pitched to me as Lovecraftian when someone wanted to convince me to play it.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@Aster_Risk I meant "Gothic". But yeah, overall it's definitely Lovecraftian because those elements vastly swamp the game's theming.

[@fizzie6902]

Definitely gothic with Lovecraft added in. Like.... Look at Yharnam for 2 seconds... Yeah the shoe fits.

[@Nerd.Of.All.Trades]

I am so over people who think that in order to be goth you have to be super sad to be goth. Like, it’s not a personality,

[@KaiDecadence]

It's a really dumb stereotype. The only thing you need to be a Goth is to listen to Goth music. That's literally it.

[@edgyintellect177]

That's why I prefer the doomer label now.

[@jccarreno3768]

YESSSS THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS VIDEO!!!

[@KaiDecadence]

Glad you enjoyed it :)

[@Kurokitty23]

can you do a video on more of the music, im a new sub and baby bat( well trying to be)

[@KaiDecadence]

Oh for sure, I will be doing a video or two on the music so stayed tuned for that. In he meantime I have made a few Goth playlists on my channel that you can peruse through to get more of an ear for the music. :)

[@okjeffy6581]

There are a lot of goth characters

[@KaiDecadence]

Nope, not really.

[@ozlem9833]

mostly they are dark inclined

[@Gothhica]

Ok but Serena and Angela being mentioned made me so happy because I love them soo much

[@Souls-at-zer0]

Feel this video is confusing and has alot of false information . Gothic or not isn't this complicated.

[@siglerproductions]

don't forget that Triana Orpheus was voiced by Lisa Hammer, singer of Requiem in White which was a project with her then-husband Doc Hammer, one of the creators of Venture Bros.

[@KaiDecadence]

Oh I've been aware of that for so long now. I'm pretty sure I mentioned that in the video though if not, I'm probably getting it confused with my old top 10 animated goths video I posted before this on my other channel lol.

[@siglerproductions]

@@KaiDecadence you probably did, and I probably spaced!

[@eliarre1007]

6:15 There actually is metal subgengre called gothic metal, however yeah, in TV shows they rather use industrial and other subgengres

[@KaiDecadence]

Gothic Metal is not a Goth subgenre, it's a Metal subgenre so even if they played a Gothic Metal song, it still wouldn't mean anything.

[@shelbypost3234]

I think I have a better understanding now. Thank you! I think I'm more Darkly Inclined

[@KaiDecadence]

You're very welcome. I'm glad that the video helped!

[@frankensteinmonster1931]

I love dark stuff and I tend to wear a lot of black, I love Frankenstein (obviously) and other old horror movies, but I definitely don’t identify as goth or any of this stuff but I do appreciate all of it

[@KaiDecadence]

And that's fine. Going off what you said, you're just darkly-inclined and that's fine and valid in terms of liking the things you do.

[@CrownOfButch]

If Goth was a mindset, i can strip down at a club because i am way above social norms and have become an enlightened Goth.

[@lovepuppy2242]

I always feel weird explaining that I’m not goth, I listen wayyyy more to metal. I am however gothic, the architecture, the literature and films are a huge part of my style. I do listen to goth rock, and that tends to confuse people. Lol.

[@KaiDecadence]

Well I mean at least you're honest lol. Any particular favorite Gothic novels and films?

[@louisvalentino7315]

I'm goth, Gothic,dark,and galacticly inclined,and love Goth and Industrial muzic!

[@ep2848]

fun fact, the co creator of venture bros ( of which you featured the character Triana), has been in a few goth bands! and puts references to goth bands in the show I remember the character pete talking about bauhaus to triana

[@KaiDecadence]

Oh yeah I'm aware. Doc (Eric Hammer) who both created the show and voiced the character Dr. Girlfriend was in the Goth bands Requiem in White and Mors Syphilitica and Lisa Hammer who voiced Triana was the singer in Requiem in White and Mors Syphilitica as well. That's why Triana felt like an authentic Goth character because she was made by actual Goths.

[@blacksheep1924]

Some characters get characters are called goth, though I think they could actually grunge, or punk based characters. Which a darkly inclined, and also involve music at its core.

[@KaiDecadence]

I wouldn't say "Grunge" at all for any of these characters. Grunge is another music-based scene just like Goth & Metal lol. Darkly-Incliend doesn't stand for music necessarily and it's used as a catch all term for anything dark and or macabre along with the people who like that kind of stuff.

[@blacksheep1924]

I didn't really mean any of the characters you mentioned. I just seen characters obviously a representative of the grunge era and scene, called things like goth. I know this my mother was into grunge. That's what she raised me on. I meant that grunge is a dirtier darker inclined take on rock, it's not afraid to talk about the taboo sh*t. And I feel the same about punk though it's also about counter culture and political standing. Goth, punk, and grunge are a all music based subcultures, but they aren't the same, but I've seen characters, who are obviously grunge, or punk be called goth and obviously goth characters be called punk, or grunge. Yes darkly inclined is an umbrella term, but I think these subcultures fall under that umbrella.

[@love_like_blood]

There's one comic with Nemi that is called "Count Your Blessings Instead of Sheep" (I think that's the title, but you can just type "Nemi count your blessings" and it should pop up) and it makes a nod to Nemi being a fan of The Sisters of Mercy and The Cure but I think those are the only bands I've seen her like which would be considered Goth. But most time she's considered a metal fan. I've never seen Downtown but color me interested. The first time I saw the goths from South Park was actually the episode where they burn Hot Topic lol! Also Angela has some nice moves! Wish I could dance like that. Stigmata Martyr sounds pretty awesome too! Great video!

[@KaiDecadence]

Hm I see. Yeah I couldn't find all the shorts of Nemi but most of them were always referencing metal music so even if she did like The Cure and Sisters, I would still consider her more of a Metalhead than a Goth since the character seems more rooted in Metal. Just Metalhead who occasionally listens to Goth lol. Yeah I highly recommend Downtown, it's a pretty underrated show and you can watch it here on KZbin. The Hot Topic episode was so freaking classic but yeah I was exposed to them much earlier with the Raisins episode but I was like in middle school at the time when it was a new episode lol And yeah Angela was an awesome dancer, the actress was actually professionally trained ballet dancer. Glad you enjoyed the video!

[@crisornellas]

Thats such a great video Kai ! Made me very nostalgic of some of those animes ! Hehehe 😊

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks, glad the video helped :)

[@reganv.8309]

Loved this video 🖤 great examples of gothic and darkly inclined.

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks!

[@cartoonygothica]

Hearing Joy Division and Bauhaus in this video made me feel like listening to them again.

[@KaiDecadence]

Awesome haha.

[@amARTspot]

Nice video. I personally am more Gothic, hence the name, but I found it interesting that Nana was even mentioned on this video as I've never seen her referred to as Goth considering that she was clearly Punk in a more lyrical Punk band. I will be checking out the music list as I honestly never really listened to Goth music. Thanks for the resource.

[@KaiDecadence]

So you like Gothic literature? Have any favorite Gothic novels? On Nana, I didn't see how people could think she was Goth neither as she didn't play Goth music or listen to it but I did find some people seriously think she is because they think Black hair + dark makeup = Goth lol. On the music, something I highly recommend is to watch my "What is goth" video, I go into depth about the music and the genre. >kzbin.info/www/bejne/anjWpJ6PeqmaqKc

[@amARTspot]

@@KaiDecadence I don't really have a favorite, though like most people I tend to like Poe. Gateway author, I suppose. I've been wanting to get back into Southern Gothic Literature as well having thought about some things I've missed out on reading and wanting to reread. Though as I'm writing this, I started thinking about Alice Walker and Toni Morrison and am starting to wonder if they might not have written or be Gothic writers. And I might have watched that one, already, but I'll check and make sure.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@amARTspot Hm right well about Alice Walker and Toni Morrison, I had to look them up. Alice Walker is not a Gothic writer, her novels from what I've done a short synopsis of is not centered around the Gothic. Toni Morrison though, her novel "Beloved" is a Gothic novel.

[@thevelvetundergr0und490]

Also Trent Lane (Jane's brother) from Daria is goth I'm pretty sure because in one episode where they show his room, he has a bauhaus and a sisters of mercy poster :)

[@KaiDecadence]

I can't remember that episode but with how music-centered Daria was and the fact that Bauhaus and Sisters of Mercy did play on MTV back in the day, I can believe. I'm not sure if I would consider Trent "Goth" Goth because it was clear he was meant to be more centered around Grunge and Alternative Rock but yeah, he could technically count as well. Though it really makes me all the more annoyed with how they never played any Goth music for Andrea's scenes seeing as she was supposed to be the blatant Goth of the show lol.

[@LordJo2794]

I hear that dark Souls character creation in the background. I LOVE THAT SONG! IT'S so great for sleep

[@KaiDecadence]

Guilty lol

[@lilithrose6857]

I loved your video! Thank you for the clarification ❤️

[@KaiDecadence]

Glad you enjoyed :)

[@JoyEmpress]

I guess I'm partially darkly inclined. I always found the goth scene fascinating and listen to a few goth bands (specifically Siouxsie and the Banshees as well as Sisters of Mercy) but wouldnt personally call myself a goth since I barely appear that way, don't know every single goth band and haven't read the literature. Love your video, you added two of my favorite things in one video Haha 😊

[@KaiDecadence]

"Barely appear that way" What do you mean by that? Dressing? Because you don't need to be dressing to the nines in black clothing to be Goth, it's a music-based subculture at the end of the day and if you enjoy the music and are open to listening/discovering more Goth bands to add to your overall music collection, then that's enough. But if you just mean that you just acknowledge that you don't really listen to the music that often and are more of a passing listener of the genre then okay, I get you because I'm like that with Metal and it's why I never call myself a Metalhead because while I don't mind Metal, I don't listen to it all that often nor really look for other Metal bands.

[@AcelLeca0]

I call darkly inclined people darklings. He is a darkling. He is darkling Shey is a darkling. She is darkling They are darklings. They are darkling

[@realestofthereals]

this video is very informative and in depth, thank you kai !!

[@KaiDecadence]

You're welcome :D

[@kurtslavain]

You Goths need to chill. Be like us-metalheads. We all know that Metal is a music genre but nobody gets offended when someone says "wow, that's so metal", metaphorically regarding to something "badass", even if it has nothing to do with the metal genre.

[@owlofathena1247]

8:46 totally missed opportunity, considering that Trent (Jane's brother) had a poster of Sisters of Mercy in his bedroom.

[@KaiDecadence]

He did? I never noticed haha But that makes it all the more annoying why they never played Goth music cues for Andrea interactions even more lol

[@owlofathena1247]

@@KaiDecadence yeah, you can look it up on google images lol, he actually had both a SoM and Bauhaus poster. Not to mention, Trent's character is literally inspired by NIN. (Although they're not considered goth)

[@KaiDecadence]

@@owlofathena1247 I'll give the show points for knowing Bauhaus and SOM but no, NIN are not a Goth band, they are an Industrial band. That doesn't really mean that Trent is Goth because it's pretty clear he was a representation of Grunge and Alt. Rock altogether whereas with Andrea, it was very clear that she was made to be Goth based on her aesthetic.

[@syahaz7088]

​@@owlofathena1247 Though I agree with Kai that Trent isn't Goth, I see this as a nice representation for those who like Goth music but not really associating themselves as Goth. For instance, I like Metal but don't really consider myself as Metalhead lol.

[@shindroid]

this explains everything so well, awesome video dude! oh and gotta love that silent hill music in the background ;)

[@KaiDecadence]

Thanks!

[@LuLu-Sil]

Goth like Grunge is a MUSIC lead style. I love both.

[@KaiDecadence]

Yep

[@morganashley8828]

So what do you think about Monster high? As a whole would it fall into gothic bc the school itself is based on gothic architecture and nods to literature and being set in the monster world in the school I guess the setting is gothic. and two of the main students are based on characters from gothic literature (Frankie, Draculaura). Or would monster high just be considered darkly inclined in your opinion?

[@KaiDecadence]

That's a very interesting question. So the truth is I never watched their show, the only exposure I've had to Monster High was the TV special "Ghouls Rule". There's no doubt that the high school is modeled with gothic architect in mind what with it looking like a gothic castle. So that particular setting is gothic but would I say the media as a whole is gothic? I don't think I would. It has a gothic setting but I feel like everything considered is still rooted fantasy. Now if the show has played around with gothic horror or gothic romance tropes, that would be a different story but going off what I've seen and what I've heard, seems like typical slice of life teen life with some bouts of romance drama but with the twist of it being monster themed. Now for Frankie and Draculaura. I'll start with Frankie. I don't really see her as a "gothic" character. Yes she is inspired by Frankenstein but that's just it, inspired but she doesn't have particular interests that aligns with gothic interest like reading gothic literature or seems nto gothic film. She just seems like someone who is really into science who came from a sheltered background. If I'm wrong and that she actually does read gothic literature, please do let me know but going from what I remember from the special and what I've read about her, it doesn't seem like a theme with her. With Draculaura, Initially I wouldn't say she strikes me as a "gothic" character. Yeah she's a vampire and based off of Dracula but again, her interests on a glance doesn't seem to align with areading gothic literature or being into gothic horror films. Her base design definitely is Lolita inspired but is a tad too bright to fall into the "Gothic Lolita" style of Lolita (still cute though lol). However I then saw her "Sweet Screams" design and that look definitely looks more darkly-inclined. And I also came across this picture ( mir-s3-cdn-cf.behance.net/project_modules/max_1200/c54da761735461.5a788290ed1d2.jpg ) which seemed to have been drawn by the artist who illustrates the characters and with this in mind, Draculaura could pass of as a Gothic character since she clearly digs gothic architect assuming that the setting in the picture is her bedroom. I'll throw in ElissaBat. Out of all three, she's definitely the darkest style-wise and her base design is clearly Gothic Lolita. I couldn't find any info on what her interests are outside of her acting profession so I can't say for certain if she's actually into gothic literature or film so that's a bit up in the air but design-wise, she's the closest to gothic style what with her Gothic Lolita look. Overall though, I would put Monster High as darkly-inclined. Because outside of the school location, most of the locations are rather normal and the show just doesn't seem to play with gothic tropes. It's just the normal world flipped upside down with a horror theme (the characters being based on monsters). So yeah, I would put the Monster High series as a (fun) darkly-inclined show. And I'll end by saying that I wish Monster High came out sooner because I would've been all over the show as a kid lol