The problem with NA pubs

Zach rants about the differences between NA and EUW Dota servers. I KNOW all servers experience these problems (and there will be good games/people in all servers as well), this was just my take on the general difference between the servers.
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[@pineapplescuddleduck]

As someone who is a core player everytime i play support i realize just how much of a baby the core players are. Someone says you did bad and they instatly say i quit and just farm until you lose.

[@redmundtjhinagdanan4085]

In general people don't really want criticism on the spot, especially not from a stranger which in theory has more or less the same skill level. People usually only take advice from someone they look up to or respect. The baby raging and giving up though is very specific to NA.

[@pineapplescuddleduck]

@@redmundtjhinagdanan4085 yea just to be clear I'm not the one calling them bad, I never talk unless it's like let's rosh. It's always like the pos 1 telling the pos 3 to stop farming and then he baby rages

[@dinorun7924]

As a support player who occasionally plays carry I realise just how terrible most support players are. They don't block camps, they single pull (only acceptable if you spam deny the creeps and the camp is anything but the kobolds). They feed 3 times then leave your lane and you have to jungle at level 4. It's funny how many spectre games I managed to win despite having to jungle because I could just feed off the enemy supports, who are just as shitty.

[@pineapplescuddleduck]

@@dinorun7924 I think the moral of the story is we're all dog shit

[@WhopperCheeseDota]

Eh as a core player I feel like I only get punished if I try to help team. If I play selfishly I feel like I can just maybe carry late game if we get there. Where as if I try to help and my team plays like shit we will just all do badly and have no hope of recovering.

[@bran440]

This is so validating 😭Please keep making these Dota cultural critiques so that we can all get better.

[@grassyclimer6853]

the biggest problem I have is people self sabotaging to make a point. seeing they are alone but they want to team fight so instead of waiting they run in alone die and complain about how the team farms to much, wanting vision somewhere not having it going there anyway getting killed then complaining about no vision stuff like that.

[@user-xl6yo5dr6p]

That's just sad.

[@bluejay7058]

@@user-xl6yo5dr6p It's worse: pathetic! Why ruin your own game so liberally at the slightest sign of someone offending you?! Makes no sense to me.

[@ashapls8922]

Been playing EU over NA for two years, dropped 1.5k mmr immediately (other factors than region tbh). The games are much harder than NA but so much more rewarding. The consistency, and urge to win even during huge deficits is polar opposite of NA. Language barrier also feels like way less of a problem than in EU. What I mean is, you still have games where nobody on team understands each other, but they realize it early on and just fall back to lots of pings and ping chats. NA dota everyone screams their native languages to the brick walls and don’t adapt. If you can play on EU just do it.

[@Sarnith]

Because the EU has so many languages and dialects in such a small cluster of the world, they're more open and apt to other forms of communication like pings. In NA, if you ping, they assume you're just insulting their pride lol.

[@jackmccarthy7644]

The most useful bit of communication I use is the "coming here" ping. Rotating to gank the other side lane? Coming here right on top of the gank target. Coming mid for the power rune? Coming here right on the rune spawn. Going to scout Roshan? Coming here. Always keep your teammates informed of where you're moving on the map so they can see you aren't just wandering aimlessly waiting for a play.

[@nuketurnal2]

how do you that bro?

[@jackmccarthy7644]

@@nuketurnal2 hold down the left-mouse when pinging and it will be one of the options

[@thiag0d]

My favorite ping, and I have a chatline for every objetive aswell, so I click “coming here” and release “coming to gank” “roshan!”, and voice chat, so triple way to secure communication, but even then people don’t pay attention or just don’t care

[@FellintoFall]

@@thiag0d Good advice, thank you! Ill rework my chat wheels

[@Rykaas]

"How you do anything is how you do everything" - Simon Hodges I think cultural differences are the reason of the differences you noticed between the 2 servers

[@LachlanDally]

I'm an enginnering manager at a pretty big tech company and soooo much of what you're saying in this video is exactly the sort of communication coaching I give to my engineers. I actually think learning how to communicate effectively in the crucible of a dota game is amazing training for being able to do the same thing in less stressful workplace situations, with the benefit of when it DOES get stressful in the office, you've been training for hours in Dota already 😅 Great advice, and thank you for using your platform to broadcast this sort of message!

[@thegamingclassroom]

I'd love to talk to you more about this! Because these are the kinds of things I create content about on my channel. Are you down for discord chat/email? Would love to chat about things we learn in games and apply it in professional contexts!

[@LachlanDally]

@@thegamingclassroom sure, what's your discord?

[@amuro9624]

People underestimate how much good communication impacts games. I've had games that I lost just because the team didn't communicate and everyone thinks they're too good to listen to what others are saying.

[@joaomartinspersonalteacher859]

I'm Brazilian, I feel the exact same way about south america server. The thing is, Europeans have way better education, and that is a huge factor that can't be overlooked. If the base of your education is better you'll perform better virtually at everything... the only way to help that is to spread knowledge, but if you're someone that was never used to study about anything you might not even get to that.

[@ZeroXcuses]

NA player here. Our education is also inferior to EU. I think you're on to something.

[@Lacertos]

É isso, país de QI médio 82-84 não tem muito como fugir disso.

[@Projolo]

It isn't a knowledge problem it is a character problem

[@joaomartinspersonalteacher859]

@@Projolo That too, but even in that education plays a big role.

[@Projolo]

@@joaomartinspersonalteacher859 Education plays a big role in character development

[@Anthony-pg3wv]

Z, you hit it on the head brotha. So much of Dota can be related back to life itself in a weird way. And if you look at American culture you can see it manifest into dota games consistently. Giving up early, blaming everyone else, not willing to accept your downfalls, not willing to work together as a team to overcome a difficult problem. All these things are just a reflection of how we are becoming as a nation.. and that is what is truly heart breaking

[@Nicupos]

Truth

[@Bagginsess]

Giving up early? Yea maybe liberals take that mentality but try associating with conservatives and blue collar workers and you'll find great dedication and backbone. Unsurprisingly those types of people are less likely to play games or when they do play them it's FPS or single player games and not mobas. Also competitive americans have way more outlets than esports, Europe has soccer we have football, basketball, baseball, hockey, lacross, and golf. Americans look down on wasting time competing in video games while other countries are much more encouraging of esports.

[@Anthony-pg3wv]

@@Bagginsess as a carpenter myself I can tell you that blue collar work is not respected among most of the youth nowadays. These kids don’t want to work hard.. social media is cultivating the idea of fast and easy money. That’s why every other person wants to be an influencer or some sort of online presence. Just open your eyes brotha.. kids are living with their parents much longer than they used to. Our society is becoming soft. And I’m not trying to rant.. I just can’t help but see the correlation from what I was seeing inside of dota 2 games

[@Anthony-pg3wv]

@@Bagginsess and on a side note, you sound slightly ignorant on the state of the world outside of America. Just watch the Olympics next time their on.. Europeans are playing just as many sports as us, and they also speak 2-3 languages.

[@Bagginsess]

@@Anthony-pg3wv lol I'm young and all the conservative guys I know and some liberals respect the trades or are in the trades themselves. Dota is not very popular in the US so you can't paint the entire population for the actions and behavior of a small niche group comprised of almost entirely nerds. Dota and esports is much more mainstream in europe. The olympics is not the same as the NFL, NBA, MLB, pop warner, little league, ymca basketball, etc. Americans are far more into sports than esports. Europe cares a lot about soccer like we do american football but not the other sports we play. Also america is so much more spread out and richer making local tournament scenes fostered by a close network of gaming cafes nonexistent. We game at home or at friend's homes so finding people willing to compete is either from your school, work, family, or random people online. You're seen as weird if you go to a gaming cafe in america. Back in the day we did do LAN's a lot but that has died out like split screen. Gaming culture is very different between america, europe, and korea but I don't think it's because americans give up but then again maybe I just respect my country more than you.

[@TheMagicCake]

I had an Ember yesterday in my NA pub who hovered Ember mid from the first pick, and he literally CRIED and spammed about wanting last pick over our carry. Then he just picks Ember anyways... and we lose cause he goes 1-10 in a bad Ember game...

[@prettymaladies]

he must have been really bad considering how broken that hero is rn

[@TheMagicCake]

@prettymaladies man's just highlights a hero and demands last pick with no clue what to do with last pick, yeah he was probably your average uneducated american

[@ChadKakashi]

@@prettymaladies do pros first pick Ember because he’s so broken now? I’m a noob so please explain.

[@PizzaManager101]

@@ChadKakashiHe’s one of the top 3ish midlaners, but can lose land hard if counterpicked (particularly to huskar) That said there are games where he’s more broadly underwhelming because of ally picks too, though that’s rarer in my experience

[@prettymaladies]

​@@PizzaManager101 i think it's hella rare rn. i'm noob too but i'm also 17-3 with him lately. my take is that there's just too much synergy rn with his skillset and items. his skills want him to be in the middle of the fray dealing aoe damage, but before you'd just get bursted through flame guard too fast or right clicked down. now if you do the mage slayer + shivas rush and skip maelstrom, you have 30 armor at 20 minutes. what the fuck is that. on top of that you have 50% base magic resist, *plus* when you apply the active of mage slayer to everyone with a sleight of fist, they deal 40% less spell (all types) damage. so now you don't die to spells. and the cooldowns match, so you can keep that going permanently? you just don't take damage in the middle of 5 heroes, it's so dumb. don't take my word for it tho, 51% wr with 3k+ games? now that's how you know something's wrong dota2protracker.com/hero/Ember%20Spirit#

[@manuelmarce2544]

What i love about SEA is I rarely get allies who will literally afk until the end of the game. SEA players will whine, rage, etc, we will say gg end in all chat, but the next thing the enemies will see is it is hard to go hg because we're still defending and giving it our all. Not always the case but it still happens many times.

[@LukeD02]

The "gg end" is honestly the single best bait in Dota lol

[@freddypyotr3771]

Yes, and they almost always pick supps that can scale late. Silencer, NP, Snap. u know what I mean. Everyone knows that SEA server has no supp player, everyone is core. Your supps are just waiting for an excuse to go core, XD. Be respectful if you're playing core and dont give them an excuse to do so as it will make the game longer and harder. They say "GG end", then the enemy pos 5 silencer comes out 6 slotted and ur team cant hg anymore, lol. Always be lyin these SEA people

[@zacsubach]

SEA players be chasing comeback wins like it's a drug. Masters of stalling games. It's even reflected in pro plays. Whenever SEA team is on the screen, if they fall off early, you just can't say for sure the game is done. The only issue is, other pro teams know this, so they will try to prevent the game from dragging.

[@mechanicalhelios8321]

Nah sea is pretty trash, no one knows how to play past laning stage and the macro concept is utter rubbish

[@Yggdrasill59]

Hey Zack. I randomly came across a game you were casting and I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed it. I hope to hear more of your commentary in pro games! 😊

[@user-ou9pc4mr3o]

keep going bro you're gonna make it big. Very high quality content i've seen over these past few months. You make me want to stream and play myself.

[@TheMagicCake]

NA players take everything, and i mean everything as some form of aggresion. The smallest things, a ping, asking them to play with you, literally anything. 99.9% of ppl i play with in NA are just upset for no reason lol.

[@Sarnith]

This video is spot on, and I'm going to give playing in eu a try. I'm just so tired of my cores giving up because they get denied, or they missed a last hit. God forbid I say I'm pulling... so many times they decide to nose dive into the enemy tier 1 tower and spam ping and scream on voice all manner of insults and excuses as to why its not their fault. And, as you said, they hadn't said anything until then.

[@Sarnith]

So, been on EU all day. Haven't won as many as lost admittedly -- but even the losses felt fun. For once I can say I had a day of games without someone disconnecting out of rage, griefing on purpose, or other nonsense. Sure; there were some toxic people... But even then, at least they tried to win. I'm never going back to NA. -EVER-

[@TheGlenn8]

TBH we do discriminate in Europe. It's just that it's nationality based discrimination instead of racism.

[@zeno-sama7688]

I agree with you Zquixotix most US players nowadays move to EU West Server even the ping is relative high however EU server provide better game's quality teamwork and communication. IMO, I think that playing with russian is so far better than playing with Peruvian sometimes. At least they try to communicate with a broken english and cooperate in a team instead of flaming and destroying items. I live in East Coast as well but I found that it is more pleasurable to in EU rather than NA Server right now even the ping is high.

[@GurneroMaelstrom]

I can confirm this, Russian players actually try to win the game and play it without crying or giving up early, unlike those pussies from Ukraine/USA or Peruvians/Ecuatorians, etc. It sucks playing in US east as a low mmr player

[@mertondunikov1106]

This comparison to Peruvians hurt my Russian ego a bit

[@josephreynolds2401]

@@mertondunikov1106 Peruvians and Russians are the America and Europe scapegoats. Op didn't pick it, the rage flamers did. I agree that Russians tend to be milder and friendlier than someone who throws around peruvian or russian like it's an insult instead of a nationality.

[@dinorun7924]

@@josephreynolds2401 And if you speak russian, you'll find that not only are the russians who don't speak english trying to communicate usefully, they're usually correct about timings etc. While my understanding of spanish is weaker and portuguese is non-existent, all I hear on their mics is flaming or loud music. The russians at least have some irony when they get angry; their insults are kinda smart sometimes. The spaniards just call my mom a whore.

[@theacme3]

You clearly never played with a russian teammate. I had soooo many games where there was single russian dude all chatting in russian, both teams told him that nobody understands russian and he should shut up and he keeps talking into the void for 20 minutes. I never, ever, saw a Swedish, Spanish, french, Italian what ever guy do the same thing. Only russians. (and I'm not even talking about Cyrillic alpabet as a very strong indicator for smurfs, cheaters or pure toxic behavior).

[@llai8501]

Thank you for saying your name. I have been watching your videos for a couple years now without any idea how to say it and it's a struggle haha Love the new setup. Looking more professional! Also awesome to hear you casting matches!

[@lefephil]

Was pos 5 and saw our mid ping river next to us signalling a potential gank from enemy mid. Unfortunately, my pos 1 was in the jungle and got killed (enemy mid found haste on their way down to make it worse..). We had been winning our lane until that point but our pos 1 told us they wouldn't be playing anymore because our mid didnt ping mia appropriately enough and subsequently stopped helping anyone on the team anymore for the rest of the match. Oh, and this happened 6 minutes into the match...

[@xMoomin]

wow

[@komilovalyukobondmantaj232]

There is also one difference in these servers. In NA servers I played ench pos 5 in 4k and dominated ez lane and completely shut down the enemy mid SF. What I really liked about it my team appreciated me for that, and necro was like "you should play in pro teams with this game understanding as a support and rotations". I admitted saying it was just my momentum only. But the thing is you rarely get appreciated for what you do if not never. On the other hand, this thing (dominating the lane and rotating early mid) is another Tuesday for me in EU whenever I am in that momentum but never do I hear any thanks or something like that, instead more often the not your carry be like: "solo, 9 vs 1", "you did nothing in this game"

[@capj1347]

This is so anecdotal of course some games you get people like this but for the most part I feel like if I emulate the good traits then my teammates do as well or if someone on my team does it. It all comes down to comm and I have never play in EU but I feel like this is such a high rank problem

[@wyattbeito7564]

I am 100% guilty of the post-mistake communication (Although I'd like to think I don't have the "you ruined my life" attitude about it) and now that you've pointed that out that's the #1 thing I'll be focusing on working on in my games from now on. I know I can't speak for everyone who does this but I'm sorry and I'm going to work on getting better at this 😅

[@sstearns34]

In regards to the drafting yessss.....I've started really enjoying playing support but it is so frustrating to have your lane partner not even show a potential pick. I let the time run out so we can set up come kind of synergy but have to pick blind, and then they pick a core that guarantees the lane is going to be trash. And then of course they blame me when the lane is trash. The pick phase thing is so frustrating it's the only reason i sometimes queue core

[@ekuude]

100% It also sucks knowing you're likely going to lose the game in draft and have to spend the whole game with some dude raging at everyone else when he 10th picked into his direct counter 🤦‍♂️

[@alparslanklc434]

Are you a pos4 earth shaker, mirana, pudge kinda player?

[@sstearns34]

@@alparslanklc434 nope i hate all of those

[@jasonmoore442]

I que for all roles because I’m old and bad. If I’m support I’ll always click a hero early and my core NEVER shows a pick they want to play. Then when I pop a core role I instantly pick a hero I want to play and end up first picking because my supports don’t select a hero before time runs out. It’s nuts.

[@trevorunderwood]

The scathing essay after when a simple ping before would have prevented the whole issue 😂

[@WEIRDxGRIM]

Yea from the EU, had a ogre building midas with a hearth queued up, he was the only one with a stun on our team, i asked why he was building a midas inplace of scepter, no respones, but that hearth became a scepter in his que.

[@xMoomin]

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[@jigenrice]

Can't wait for your video essay on SEA server. 😂

[@YourServant227]

God its so good to hear someone rant from a support perspective. AU has some similar issues as NA.

[@voltirin511]

Been playing with a variety of people now because I've been doing Dota 4+2 arams. When I see a US East lobby people give up before 10 mins, when I see any foreign lobby it's like I'm in a completely different game. I feel like I've learned more about some characters in the last few weeks than I have in a long time watching people who also THOROUGHLY enjoy dota.

[@Mr.giftedGecko]

Great thoughts for NA dota players to consider, I hope to have more games where people say things that aren't just flame. Communicating what you're about to do also makes you think about what you're going to do which is so much better than auto-pilot farming until a fight breaks out, probably +1k mmr for doing that.

[@jftsong4181]

hi sorry I have a game for WFIIA. I am lion in 7565257670, around 1.2MMR after a losing streak of 400 MMR recently. I started playing lion in this patch, and it feels really strong. But many times I found I often lose those games where I actually feel like I perform reasonably well. Is it due to me KS too much and ended up stealing my cores farm? In this game pango complained I should rotate bot during lane, but I feel like me and tiny are dominating top and its good idea to keep the pressure there. Later in the game I am hesitating should I build into sceptre, but ultimately delay it so much I didnt really get to do so and lose the game.

[@ChaosBaldur]

i feel this so hard as a support gamer, but is nice to hear that other think too about it

[@zegasus9827]

What to say, how to say it and when. Awesome content, thanks Z.

[@TheMastercoms]

I did an analysis on thousands of games and found that there was no statistically significant difference in winrate by region in matchmaking. However, obviously there are MMR skill distribution differences between regions which may impact cross regional queuing that, over time, balances out.

[@TheRealCHIMShady]

Lmfao

[@froge_]

No way this is a real comment 💀

[@user-xr8du7ys8u]

As an sea player I can see how SEA and NA draft similarly cores that demand last pick just pick whatever they want. But unlike na SEA didn't raise no quiter

[@user-ms4jp7ml1y]

Sorry, i think here is the better place to ask. What should we do when we lose game, or start to get behind in game, if we don't want to just "give up too early"? especially for support player bcos that's who most of us are at this channel. Can you make a video about it? it would help us a lot🥲🥹

[@Fictionarious]

The difference is noticeable even in 2.5-3k bracket. Mainly in terms of pro-activity and 'faster' feeling games.

[@Wasabiofip]

Man I am definitely guilty of not letting go of one mistake. Sometimes it's sort of valid, in that it's an "ongoing" mistake (both supports still just building carry items when we desperately need another dispel or save) but sometimes it's un-alterable past things like a missed gank or not taking a tower. I think there is a "pre-emptive strike" mentality in Dota flame, where in a rough game you expect someone to start flaming and you don't want the team to turn against you and mass report. So when having a bad game you launch a pre-emptive strike by calling out and harping on something that is probably a mistake, but isn't worth dwelling on. Saying useful things, that really resonated with me though. I have literally told teammates "say useful shit". I'll sit through someone flaming if they are also saying useful, actionable things.

[@Bobby.Kristensen]

As a 6k support player I hate that people are so horrible at last picking that I have started disconnecting and then wait a few seconds and reconnect so that my team picks and I can adapt.

[@WindingDreams]

I'm struggling as a new player in eu. No one has ever told me preemptively to do anything. I just get pinged, question marks in chat or I'm told to quit.

[@ZQuixotix]

The new player experience is definitely rough :( There are some communities out there that are meant for new players and you can play with other new players or more experienced players who help you out if that interests you

[@salad3955]

play on Asia its nicer( in term of people being friendly only lol)

[@jethrovaningen]

Welcome to DotA, you suck ;-)

[@LukeD02]

Unranked or ranked?

[@jesaispas6402]

Request a coach, he will help you and it's free! If other players are man to you, don't wait and mute them right away because it's highly unlikely they will help you.

[@magic4694]

bro can u make a vid where u showcase elder titan support, ive watched ur 2yrs back vid but would really like to understand et support in the new patch

[@BreadAccountant]

18:30 This is also true outside of dota. America really does reward individuals who are good alone but Europe has a lot more of a focus on the teams performance. You see this in so many ways

[@josephreynolds2401]

I've seen European players trip over themselves trying to get coordination and end up standing in a circle doing nothing then flame me for making a net positive play by taking initiative and dying first (on pos 5, ffs). I "didn't communicate" the play while they stood in a circle with vision on squishy and blink daggers unused, but I'M wrong for taking the winning fight because it wasn't pretty, perfect, useless comms while they never express any skills. Unfortunately, I was in a "friendly" group and they teamed up on me even though they couldn't coordinate a single successful maneuver amongst themselves. Archon pos 3 player interrupting a pull to the hard camp while the enemy pos 1 free farms under tower. Did I mention this archon player quoted my lower rank as if he didn't constantly ruin his own lane equilibrium and teamfights? These guys were also scared to cross river and i told them we lose if we stay on our side (a common problem) and the one other US player agreed with me on every single point on every single loss when he was there. All on EU with "friendly" "team oriented" players. Very weird culture. At least they "agreed" on their mutual choice to lose as much as they blamed the losses on me. Being a Yes Man did them no favors and scapegoating me is their failure, not mine. I focus on playing well on my own terms. I know what good callouts/comms/gameplay look like but no matter the server, teammates tend to hate each other, take no responsibility, and make poor social decisions by default.

[@josephreynolds2401]

As a USian, the only other player in that group that treated me or map meta fundamentals with respect was from the US. He was also the only player that made active teamfight calls, aggressive plays, capitalized on map control etc. Higher rank than the others. He was also surprised when I made my own calls and followed up with me, recognizing that I had made a smart read before they did. The other guys would do the opposite of what I said as if my lower rank also meant I was deeply wrong about what was happening. It seemed like the EU players in this group were experienced but overconfident about what they thought was correct play but was actually deeply erratic. Not committed to their plans, not having plans, and generally overfocused on micromanaging frivolous call-outs.

[@yellowbones]

that long-drawn speech about the support dilemma is so real.

[@Talk3rs]

"Destroy items" I have around 6k games played and I think this happened to me maybe once or twice. I dont remember anybody ragequiting on my team ever. Worst thing that happens is, that somebody bought invis and stayed in lane hidden. That was maybe 5-10 times. Sometimes somebody afk farms jungle and only comes to defend HG (or not even that, if they feel game is lost). That is 3k EU server.

[@Talk3rs]

And often actually (even in 3k EU) people own their mistakes. If I die and its my fault, I often say "sry, too aggresive" or "careful, they have vision", if we lose teamfght "lets focus, take torm, rosh, establish vision in this area". "of course", sometimes I blame my team. This week I had a game as carry and ther offlaner and support were hitting me endlessly and casting their spells on me to the level I could not even get close to lane. My support? Pulled twice small camp in first 5 minutes (did not deward afterwards) and hid behind the tower... So I told him "go harras them, position to threathen them or go win another lane, you are not helping here".

[@LukeD02]

Honestly that doesn't even sound like blaming. It rather sounds like constructive feedback of what the support should've been doing all along. I've got about 200-250 hrs in Dota, 100 ranked, and even at my measly 2k MMR I don't think supports play that badly as you described lol. Maybe he was new to supporting. Either way, I think you did the right thing. Communication is key.

[@Talk3rs]

@@LukeD02 There is huge difference in supports - this one was really one of the worst I ever met. I would say 70-80% of the games they are doing what you expect them to do - kinda on the similar level as opponent or what I would do myself. 10% are doing much better and win the lane for you completely (blocks unblocks camps, trade, secures lasthits, helps get kills etc). I had game with pudge who hit his first 5 hooks and we turned them into 7 kills (other hero tried to help to die). In 10-20% they just ruin the lane for you (3 recent examples is the SS I mentioned, Doom who went jungle claiming he wants one specific creep to never come back to lane and farm midas, and those AFK players who sit behind you scared or pudges who ignore the game and just try to hook and always misses). I often do part of the job myself just to be sure it is done - in half the games there is sentry on the start nobody buys so I buy it to block/unblock camp just to be sure we can pull/block their pull. if I feel we have kill potential, I buy blood grenade as carry/offlaner, if support is not doing it. If I am full HP and have extra regen/neutral item, I give tangoes to my support to help him do his job. If the lane is pushed, I rush back to stack/pull camp if support is not doing it. I actually enjoy supporting, but every time I feel like my cores cant do the thing. I destroyed yesterday opponent AM to the level he needed to go jungle lvl 4 and my magnus was lvl 6 and I helped to kill twice mid huskar by rotations to lose the game in the end.

[@koreywillesen8484]

As a NA player playing offlane I constantly have to ask my support to roam or leave lane when its under control. In my pubs the position 4 often plays soft carry and doesnt want to miss xp or farm.

[@DMacDaddy]

So.... I know this is moot, but as a Pos 5/4 player. I feel like there is hardly any opportunity to influence draft, though I'd be happy to discuss or plan ahead.... I hardly ever hear back from cores. Like you said, they all just want to stay with their comfort heroes.

[@Klimbo93]

crystal clear now: I am playing at 6k mmr UA ie, 3.5k mmr EU with 4k behav score

[@anoobplays386]

The major problem is cores always expect supports to pick first 2. But then when they see their support and the enemy supports, they will just pick what they were wanting to play that day anyway, instead of thinking and picking what would line up with those supports. At that point, for the most part, the cores might as well have just first picked, if they were always going to play that TA mid. Why save it for last pick, a pick that is usually dedicated for some sore of counter or got'cha hero, when regardless of draft, you were always going to choose that hero.

[@morososaas3397]

There are actually big differences in the EU as well regarding the culture of play. I don't speak Russian, but my favorite server is the Russian server because, even when players get really angry, they try really hard to win and almost never give up no matter what. On the other hand, the EU West server has a lot of the same problems you described with the NA games. People quite often just argue in voice comms and don't play the game if you don't do exactly what they want you to do, even when they are clearly wrong. I think it's just a fundamental cultural issue and can't be fixed, sadly (entitlement).

[@cLiMaeX]

Feels very correct. Im playing at 6300-6400 in EUW and I can agree with all of you points :D Im also only playing POS5 only.

[@Ratscratched]

Thank you ZQuix for telling me to flame my teammates /s

[@manishpradhan660]

As a Casual Dota 2 player in Sea Server having more than 5000 plus hours i got a simple experiences to add. Most people have very low Sense of game states in lower Bracket. You Cant win the lane everytime. Its just depends in hero matchup and Mechanical lane skills. But the problem with most supports that they think they can beat every matchup with the carry. For eg last game when i played a Void carry with Lion support the enemy offlane was Spirit breaker with Undying which is one of the strongest Meele offlane in Early game. The lion played agressively and Fed a lot of kills and Blamed me for not supporting him. 😅 Thats the quality of Players.

[@WhopperCheeseDota]

9:37 lol the amount of times I see a guy who's like Ancient 1 tell a guy who's Legend 5 "Omg legend noobs so bad" is embarrassingly stupid

[@Relaxitsonlyacomment]

I’ve noticed eu is much faster paced and kill based and tend to tp over for kills way more. Na tends to hold down the lanes a lil more and don’t really team up for kills in my experience. Keep in mind my very first game was end of march. Only been playing less then a month starting off in na and I have a vpn I use for pubg ranked and decided to give dota a try in eu after about a week only of experience. And I have to say I learned a lot quicker in eu

[@user-xl6yo5dr6p]

Lol I learn from your commentary that pulling before wisdom rune is a thing. I will remember this.

[@ArishVanNikon]

If you play in SEA or Russia, you will be surprised on how much teamfights you will be able to see in one game, to the point that in some games, both teams forget the objectives at all and just go for an all teamfights game, it's insane.

[@BlackSmithWolves]

My guy kinda looks like an alien when his circle lights reflect on his glasses haha

[@alexcarson2065]

When I que Support, i normally que EUW as the games are much more active and there is stuff to do. I agree the "skill" isnt greater (4.3k) but I tend to win MUCH more on that server than NA especially Us east when supporting. Us east supporting is such a bad time

[@loyaldice3421]

I’m 5.1k mmr and your spot on I feel so bad just still sitting in lane at 10mins cause my core will just baby rage if I leave and I can’t play the game.

[@shnorkeythefourth4572]

I only play turbo because I like the gold curve better but my main complaint has always been draft like you have plenty of time to call lanes and heroes just to afk random and then try to swap with me who called exactly what they intended in 5 seconds

[@scottsneed7333]

I think your analysis is spot on. EU has an overall more collective mindset whereas the USA is a more individualistic and ego based society. And I think due to the stressful healthcare and financial situations, as well as the intense cultural programming from movies n stuff, ppl in the US are all on the brink of insanity. I think that's why EU generally does better in team based esports like Dota and CS, and NA has a generally stronger fighting game scene from what I've gathered following esports the last decade.

[@notabene9804]

Re flaming: NA flaming typically also seems to have quicker mute responses, probably because expecting of the racism and xenophobia but I think it does come down to a genuine insecurity NA players have more often than not than EU. Otherwise, why would the NA player flame when asked to change playstyle or adapt? Because what is inferred by the player is that they're being critiqued rather than made an ask of. I'm reminded of when I watched you support an Alchemist, and while he was super happy to get you your SB Aghs at end of game, you were supporting him as best you could and the closest you could get to a complement is "know your place": NA cores are just entitled fam. They play the "best roles" and think that makes them the "best players" but don't behave in a manner that offers or is deserving of mutual respect.

[@TheArranBicKman]

Not sure if I’m just whining but I play 2.5k mmr in eu and I feel like the skill level in this mmr varies wildly from playing with actual bots to people who don’t play too much but are actually 5k in skill level, the matches are so inconsistent

[@icata12345]

returning players, combined with acc farmers and smurf can screw with your perception

[@LukeD02]

2k here, I completely agree. It also feels like half the time you're against a russian 3, 4 or 5-man premade lol. And even though they make many mistakes such as playing as 5 from minute 15 till the end, your own team will continue going all in, fighting them for no reason in some random spot where there are no objectives, when we're already losing in terms of NW, instead of splitting and farming.. ranked is pure misery around this bracket lol.

[@HisMagnificence]

This video is the tipping point that finally convinced me to uninstall. Because you have fully articulated all of the issues of playing in NA. Im tired of dealing with foreigners and people who would rather lose to get a mental one up on a quote unquote ally than suck it up and try to win.

[@jonathanrich4213]

You hit it at the beginning. NA players just hit Play Game. They know the hero they're going to pick before they queue, the know the items they're going to buy. I think players give up because they see the patterns in their teammates. It's very easy to know in most NA games who will win the game by 10 minutes. Many times you will have at least 2-3 players in the game not playing their roles - carry abandons lane + mutes team, support stops warding and queues up midas, mid goes to jungle and never ganks, offlaner goes battlefury, etc.

[@Shefetoful]

oh god, knowing EU is the best dota has to offer is always so weird to think about.

[@pcxxy]

As ultra PMA try hard na player, I should explore my solo queue options in EU

[@tomwilsonn]

I feel like you are describing the Australia servers. I wonder if it’s cultural or down to population only.

[@Andrew-kz8dq]

The worst part about NA servers is the amount of cores and carrys that dont get bkb its so bad it makes my heart sink

[@SSC604]

I'm quiet nowadays because of communication score. I used to be active with pinging items, timings, smokes, etc.... Ever since the communication score bug where I was stuck under 6k I haven't been able to chat. Yet my score can still continue to go down. Not a ping spammer or chatwheel spammer. My communication score is now at 4.8k and has been floating around that number for about 100 games. I repeat I am muted and can't chat. The amount of report abuse in NA is outrageous. If you do any misplay, mispick, didn't rotate when someone felt like they needed it...reported.

[@rowia.builds]

My NA cores have been so bad these past two weeks. TA into veno/viper, Drow/sniper into void, every damn game.

[@xMoomin]

bro same in SEA, the core pings wisdom timing.. i have only played support and now became DIV 1, and have never faced a toxic core.. and generally I think people are very sweet.. not psycho like BSJ : D

[@leo6d985]

Believe it or not, this shit in NA, also applies to lower brackets. Some games feels like proper guardian or crusader games, not the best, but people know the basics. Other times I have a dude last pick TA with a Pudge first pick on the other team.

[@JBudOner]

I really hope your message spreads. But admittedly my mental health is already poor enough that I have Dota chat permanently muted. Luckily you can ping communicate some things

[@jamesduehring2770]

I stg I played carry in Japan and my support was a god, I was laggy AF but I loved my support

[@salecroft1410]

experience on WestEU and EastNA servers for between 4k and 4.5k MMR. Wesu EU -> russian language everywhere, East NA -> spanish language everywhere....

[@skittering]

This sounds like me (SEA) going to play on Australia. It's a different game, they actually want to play dota

[@PositivelyHazo]

EU player here from the UK. EU at 2.5k has all of the same problems you're listing about the NA toxicity and poor communication. But seeing as we're categorising behaviour by regions, then there are particular countries in the EU that are the worst for the toxic flame. But genuinely, there's a list of maybe 10 countries you just know they're from.

[@imcoolpramesh]

I love the AU server. There are times after around 30-40mins everyone opens the mic and does their best to behave.

[@bluejay7058]

At the risk of being psychoanalytic: I think it's because these problem players in question don't believe they can ever be at a level where they're good and/or do well. I've seen some of the oddest behavior and the only thing that's common in most of it is this strange contempt for anyone else doing well, as if they don't they can too.

[@obudo]

You should try the experience of EU guardian games. Out of 10 players you're lucky if 3 speak English, and you must gather consensus on a game plan in a weird ugro-finno-turkish protolanguage

[@Randomperson-sz2gq]

Wow, I usually play on SEA or Japan servers but when I play on NA, it feels much better. So Eu server must be heaven on earth…

[@peaceofmind5819]

Bro, just make a chat wheel video of all the essentials on chat wheel one and all the niche needs for each role on the secondary ping wheel.

[@sh3nnanigans79]

US player egos are through the roof. I miss 2015 playing with my EU friends. They all quit. Also, I played dusa 4 yesterday, first pick. At 10 minutes my centaur was top net worth and I was second. At pick I said they’ll pick AM, 2nd phase ban him please. And my pos1 decides he’s going to do the exact opposite and pick spectre that has a 46% winrate against AM who proceeded to go from bottom net worth after laning to carrying the crap out of the game. And it was apparently my fault for winning my lane with a first round pick and then pressuring other lanes with my higher net worth. Core players don’t give a fuck about any other heroes in the game in NA. And the ego on top of it is just disgusting.

[@josephreynolds2401]

Calling the roles "carry" immediately causes most English NA players to throw out logic because they first pick a hard carry and proceed to feed the Mid-game because they think that "carrying" means to lift your whole team on your back, but they do so without interfacing with the gold/xp that they need to do it. Hard carry players don't realize they need to gather potential because they focus on the alpha-dominance aspect of "carry" and not the role of "Dota carry". Ironically, this makes their gameplay the opposite of what dota requires. Another problem (not endemic to region) is that supports are usually just core players farming role queue points. My personal experience with Dota is filling my role to a T entirely unopposed by the enemy team because they don't understand the minutia of the role and still losing. I play support? 2-3 of the cores are too unfocused re:farm to win. I play core? My supports/co-cores can't balance teamfight timings and farm timings. It's a real crapshoot.

[@kl-cy9du]

Dusa 4 is such a grief id just tilt out too if I saw that

[@josephreynolds2401]

@@kl-cy9du I'm pretty sure it's her only viable niche since her core potential is F tier. Thanks for demonstrating that you're scum, though.

[@leo6d985]

Quick story. Had a dude crusader 1 pick TA last pick against a pudge first pick on enemy team. Also I picked troll 4th pick. I need at least a BKB to fight, that TA needs more items than me. He didn’t rotate cuz well, TA can’t rotate. My pos 5 was a fucking sand king. The sand king was the guys girlfriend, who supposedly was crusader 3. The sand king clicked his ult once in the 35 mins that the game lasted. Do you see why is it so hard or even impossible to climb out of the lower ranks by urself?

[@BadMuthaDro]

From playing NA for years i know that people quit simply because it's faster to just que new than to grind a 50min game that you aren't that likely to win anyways.

[@iivu_u]

US games are a gamble, it all depends who gets more abled peruvian on their team. My Europe games are 53-54% win rate My US East is 44% win rate. Its terrible to even think about queuing that region.

[@xuhao878]

the divergence of player skills within the same mmr range in NA server is unreal

[@jamesfarrier8985]

One thing I don't agree with is language. Especially in Europe, queue your main language.

[@randomhandle721]

I play NA in 2K-3K bracket. I also played some EU games. EU players have better team play, NA players are more individualistic. NA East are mostly peruvians.If my EU ping was decent I would play only EU.

[@plopher]

15:08 that fact that you think players reflect on their decisions later on is very cute lol

[@auderyabhowmick5834]

I do tell my supports to get wisdom rune Or when I am playing support I get my wisdom rune convey that i am leaving the lane to get it

[@maximelestruhaut606]

Soo what you said is the whole NA ranked serve is crusader? XD (real crusader EuW, he's describing my ranked games)

[@jax-hy]

The NA sf picker impression is gold

[@zo9fg]

pls do a SEA server comparison please

[@wasabitequila]

It has to do with culture differences. Your country emphasises individualism. Look at your popular sports, basketball for example, and how it is evolving: individual, individual, individual. Over here it is a bit more about teamwork. That carries into gaming.

[@radioimh]

okay that's enough dose of complaint of my playing environment for today :)

[@TokyoSwan.]

I live in NA and I don't play on NA. Night and day compared to EU. NA is still playing DOTA like its 2015.

[@cvv9545]

We have Chinese players hop on in Austrialia, and the legend accounts consistently play like crusaders... Makes the games awful. (I know high level Chinese Dota is so so so many better than us btw, just that the average there seems much worse)

[@xMoomin]

out here is totally different, your ally will say "bobo wr", and then also force you out, and body block the enemy, sacrifice himself to save you.. and then tip you for making the risky play.. : D : D but still, they do their job properly

[@Siroitin]

Also when playing with your friends, it is not good idea to comment bad plays during game. Do it afterwards because you won't be able to have deep philosophical discussion during the game