The Problem With Narrative Transportation

[@DarylTalksGames]

Remember to use code DARYLTALKS50 to get 50% off your first Factor box at bit.ly/3SeTNCe! Thank you all so much for watching the show this year. Big plans ahead for 2024. Oh and feel free to use this as a "You misspelled *Aggressive* at 12:26" button 🙈

[@ismetcancelik5052]

remember watching an interview of a turkish tv writer and he says one day he was with critics and critics said to him ''we will tell you what you did right, why your show worked etc, but you need to forget it after it is over.'' They say this because not only consuming fiction but also even writing it is harder when you are critical of it all the way. So yeah, maybe no fast cure there darly i don't know. I am not doing this i watched so many youtube videos reviewing stuff i also get to see fiction the same way. even when i was a kid watching cartoon i could not find super satisfaction or many times logic to waht ia m watching and question how the story could get perfect. and i would get concoious of the fact that someone is writing it. i can't write perfectly, how are heygonna somehow? how to give that satisfaction you can't imagine? knowing what little i know about our nature, i would say letting it go is how a critic can get ever so closer to that lost immersion. just enjoy yourself, and you are noticing less. Our brain adjusts. and let it go everyone, really, such that you don't keep thinking about your favorite fiction all the time. for example you played a simple platform game, finished it, and then you obssess over it. nah, it is a nice memory you may want to return but you can't keep dwelling on it is not healthy. but besides health reasons, focsuing on our topic, i believe letting go in that regard also lets you notice less so you get immersed more. When you keep eating sugar, it doesn't taste as good as your first bite. you need to let your mind have something else until the next game, movie, book. there will always be a new one you will enjoy. you gotta do something else before eating them sweets again. you gotta touch grass. That is not very helpful for a critic i guess but yeah this one is more general.

[@inrevenant]

i loved that when you mentioned "everyone being an expert, thanks to channels like _these_ ", you showed Every Frame a painting as 2nd-to-last channel, as well as the last channel - again, i love this, because that channel deserves to be spammed ad nauseam across YT :D it's a bit sad their channel ended, but, at the same time, it's also perfect in its shape and form, and this way it will forever remain that way. thanks, @DarylTalksGames , for keeping a similar spirit and channel alive, about your own different angles of content :)

[@mohammadthamyizna8036]

talking about media, there are these thing called databasification. where nowadays we consume it as a database like someone just take a part of that media like the animation, the death of character, and so on and judge it be it good or bad and just completely forgotten about it's narrative about how the things be in a story. as the way we consume change so does the media changes, for example like instagram and tiktok where it cuts a video into smaller format and show us based on an algorithm heck even marvel does this thing to in spider no way home where it just take a completely different narratives and just mixed in or when the ironman died and just replace it with another ironman or should i say ironwoman, just plug things and plug out, and completely forgotten about the narratives. one of the example of the old media is the berserk where we are know that guts wouldn't be the way right now if you take any part of it story, the guts right now is the result of it's narratives.

[@GregHuffman1987]

trippy to see so much wrestling discussed on this channel. I listen to Jim Cornette's podcast regularly

[@GregHuffman1987]

12:04 cornette cameo!

[@thiscat4426]

As a writer, this is just something I have to deal with. I know too much about how to structure a narrative to not see it when it’s done. For a while, it kind of sucks. And then you get past that and you learn to enjoy a good story even though you know how it works. A rainbow is just as beautiful when you know how it happens, and honestly, even a little more.

[@Amins88]

One of the reasons I stopped pursuing video game design after High School. It was my worry that if I were to become so intimate with every detail of how a game is made, I would no longer be able to enjoy playing them.

[@patrickj]

It really is just a matter of time. When you first delve deeper into a pofessional field, you start to see the signs and patterns everywhere, but as time passes, those things just become second nature, and the only times you really consciously notice them is when they're done poorly or exceptionally well. And both of those realizations are kinda good, the latter lets you marvel at the amazing potential of your craft, while the former boosts your confidence in your own abilities.

[@jmh8817]

Agreed. Knowing how hard it is to make a good game makes me appreciate the good game in front of me more, not less.

[@j.a.shawkins7640]

I really like that analogy, and as someone who also writes, I sympathize and agree.

[@AlastorNahIdWinRadioDemon]

I mean tbh for me knowing how it works has always been part of what makes doing this beautiful.

[@synmad3638]

I find that the healthiest way of analyzing stuff is experiencing it, seeing how it makes you feel, and then analyzing why it makes you feel that way (instead of starting by analyzing the thing itself)

[@WuhHuh]

That sounds like the best of both worlds; enjoying something the first time, then using analysis to understand that joy. It’s the kind of combo where looking closer at something you love only makes you appreciate it more.

[@Arauto_Kagnos]

Agreed, its how I do and its much better than just going with an extremely analytical outlook from the get go. "Why did I enjoy my experiences with that piece of fiction, what made it feel engaging?"

[@Zythryl]

This guy gets it.

[@bellamango6708]

based elidibus fan

[@skywoofyt5375]

same

[@Nokker]

I don't think that being aware of what happens behind the scenes when consuming something is necessarily detrimental or that needs to be "fixed", there are a lot of times when it's quite the opposite. Imagine you're in a museum and you see a pretty painting, you say "Nice" and keep moving, meanwhile, someone else might know the artist, the period in which they did the painting and the context behind it, that would make it more impactful than just looking at it for what it is, same thing can happen to different types of media and can make you appreciate something even more.

[@zephyronthewind]

That's why I love Stop Motion Films so much. The best example is the end credits scene of The Box Trolls. It shows the overlay of two realities, and how both the creation process and creative result are important

[@caguay]

Absolutely. Once I'm done with a story I love, I inevitably want to get something more out of it, and I don't see it as a bad thing when I can know more about the artists behind it, the process that brought it to fruition, the many obstacles that maybe had to be overcome, etc. It provides the original piece with so much enrichment, and you can also have a deeper level of appreciation for it, and even moreso, *for the people that made it possible.* There's this song by an artist I like, that I consider to be my favorite of his, and it is absolutely brilliant in execution and experimentation. It reminds me a lot of why I like this artist's work, his signature implementation of elements, the way he plays with expectations, the delectable chord progressions... and at some point I realise I'm noticing all of that, and it doesn't deter from the experience. It sort of enhances it, it helps me bask in the many details that make what I'm experiencing as good as it is. Pick apart the layers of flavor, perse, like when you take a bite out of a sandwich. And another dimension is added to art when you know of the circumstances in which it was produced; that song I love, for example, has some really soul-sinking lyrics that are embellished by the playful, unique instrumental. It stands out among his already interesting discography, yet, when I found out that he actually wasn't too fond of this particular track, for he made it during a harsh period of his life and a difficult stage of his depression, I then understood why the song achieved to land where it did. How much of that struggle and sadness translated into music, and it was perfectly conveyed in a manner that rendered this one song distinct. In fact, it also explained why another song from that period conveyed the feeling of emptiness through such an accurate level of cynicism. Art deserves to be traced back to its source. Artists deserve to be acknowledged, and I adore knowing as much as I can about their work, it can be truly inspiring, even.

[@meikahidenori]

Yes, but that's not the same as someone who fixates only on the media's flaws, something people do with film, tv & games. When you do that that's when you need to step back and look at just the surface level because you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

[@ariadame102]

A painting is not the same thing as a fiction. I think this problem only arises with things that, by design, deviate from reality. Fiction itself is unreal, while the making of it is real. Focusing on the real means the attention is diverted from the unreal (hence "distraction" as mentioned in the video). This is where the lack of appreciation comes from. A painting doesn't really suffer from this because it's very much real, i.e. artistic aspect of a painting plays more of a role than the depicted fiction (if any) in the people's evaluation of said painting.

[@redlunatic2224]

So much this. If knowing more about how a piece of media was made worsens the experience, then it's probably because it's not that great in the first place. If the animation of Jujutsu Kaisen suffers because of poor working conditions, ignoring that would not improve the visuals or make the experience any better. On the other hand, if it's actually good, it will only blossom even further. As a recent example, I've been replaying a lot of old FF games, and it's amazing how much of their real world history can be felt through the fantasy. Decided to rewatch the old X-Men animated show whole grinding. I wonder why it's stuck so much with me as a child. I mean, it looks cool, but... Oh, this is full of disability and queer rights advocacy. It probably had a serious influence on me even if I couldn't explain it as a child, so I'm glad I revisited it.

[@justing.7997]

Between this and the back log video, you really got me reanalyzing my reanalyzing of my gaming habit and backlog. Screw it, pass the eggnog. 🤣

[@Slifer644]

As someone who has hobbies in writing, art, gaming, and film making, I tend to find myself more engrossed in a piece of media when I do see the individual parts the creators have put into it. Like the windows in RE Village with the jumpscare I found myself excited to see the developers try to scare me. When I see how the set design, character design, or something else try to influence me to feel a certain way, when I know thats what the creators want from me, I'll buy into it more, get more excited. Maybe this is just a side effect of being a DM that tries to put in serious plot beats for a party of absolute goofballs, giving the developers the buy-in that I want from my players.

[@SophieSquid]

Okay so I'm not the only one who finds it more immersive to a degree

[@Envy_May]

it's a combination of this and post-experience processing for me

[@faroukkannout]

I think honestly the point you make at the end about the obsession with "hot takes" reveals the big issue with how we engage with media now. I don't think that the "analyzing brain" is ruining our immersion or that it's actually that detrimental. It's the feeling of obligation to something other than your own personal goals. People aren't engaging, analyzing, or "thinking deeply" about media because they genuinely want to. They're doing it because that's what everyone on Twitter is telling them that's what they're supposed to do. If you genuinely love the piece of art/media, and you're choosing to analyze it for yourself than it is no longer "ruining" anything. Analyzing the structure or "taking yourself out" of the work isn't a bad thing if you're doing it out of an inherent curiosity or love for the medium, but because everyone is telling you this is what you're supposed to do you end up doing it almost out of a cultural pressure, and that's what I think is taking away the enjoyment. This also affects how we choose to analyze work as well, what "takes" we're supposed to have (and you better have the correct one or else everyone will be mad at you!). We force ourselves to think in specific ways so that we can regurgitate some kind of opinion to the outside world when really any type of analyzing should be for your own personal growth and for improving whatever relationship you have with the media you care so much about. Ultimately you can and SHOULD think deeply and analyze media, but you should be doing it because you're genuinely naturally curious about it, not because everyone else is doing it or they told you you have to. Find the specific pieces of art/media that speak to you, and make you naturally curious, and then it won't be so detrimental.

[@chozochiefxiii3298]

I personally hate that I allowed myself to fall into this trap of having to overanalyze a film or story in order to defend it on the internet. I can't just say the truth that I enjoy Aliens more than Alien because I prefer the action over horror. Aliens also tries to tell a more compelling narrative around its protagonist. I love the bravado and energy the colonial marines bring. The style of the movie. The "4th" act twist, the characters themselves. I just personally enjoy it all more than the first film. I do like Alien but in order to please people in discussions I have to bend the knee and add the disclaimer that "Alien is an immaculate horror masterpiece, while Aliens is a generic Hollywood blockbuster" which I obviously don't believe. Unlike my childhood I can't enjoy jurassic park because dinosaurs or jaws because of a shark. Now it has to be "these movies were good because their characters, drama and script were great" it's so frustrating at times. I can't like Godzilla without saying I only enjoy them ironically (which I don't I unironically enjoy a lot of Godzilla films because I love the monster and the other crazy side plots). Can't like x because y is better. X thing is overrated blah blah blah. It's the same stuff over and over. Recently because I felt like it I bought and rewatched an animated film I loved as a kid The Powerpuff Girls movie. Surprisingly I felt something it was hard to watch the few parts of the movie where the girls were being mocked and made into social outcasts. I adore these characters and don't like to see them suffer too much. Much like how I love Ripley in Aliens, she grows so much and fights to save a little girl that is basically a surrogate daughter. When Ripley says her iconic line to the Queen I smile and get excited because Ripley has shown she's willing to die for that little girl if it means saving her. It's just hard now to openly admit to feeling things because its from media or a story that people either don't like or now choose to devalue because it's cool to do. I want to go back to just enjoying things. I've had a few instances in the past few years with some games and movies but not as much as during my childhood. I'm tired of feeling I have to have the same immaculate taste as everyone else it makes me feel fake and hollow inside like the passion isn't genuine anymore. Sorry for the long response your comment just spoke to me and how I've been viewing myself the more I engage with modern internet and social media instead of close friends, family and just by myself.

[@Camurgladius]

I think the plague of "VS Battles" is a pretty strong example I've encountered of what you're talking about...

[@homembarata]

I'm a game developer and honestly, to make, knowing how everything is made only makes me appreciate it more. I don't care as much about smaller issues that I know are hard to fix and I'm constantly amazed by clever solutions to technical problems that most people don't even realize exist.

[@GameAlchemistLeo]

Went I became a game dev I too began to appreciate the way things would get done, such creative solutions out there, also deducting how things worked made me feel excited

[@effortlessfury]

It is interesting how it can swing both ways. The knowledge of how games are made doesn't necessarily involve analyzing what's wrong but also observing what is right, what is unique, and what the intent was.

[@abadidea5984]

My friends and I have discussed this phenomenon that we've colloquially referred to as "TV Tropes Education", where critical media has made people aware of the puzzle pieces and ingredients that creators use to make media, and that some people take this knowledge as a sign that they should be devalued. We have spoken to so many people who have fallen into TV Tropes rabbit holes to the point where they can't watch a single piece of media without popping every single TV Tropes flash card out of their pockets when they recognize it, and worse yet is that they falsely believe that just _using_ a trope is a sign of bad writing. We know better than to use TV Tropes as a substitute for media literacy, but it hit me the most when a friend was telling me that they were watching _Everything Everywhere All At Once_ with their mother, and during the third act of that film the mother completely tuned out once she locked in on the idea of "Oh, this is just an overly-positive 'love wins' scenario". And this is a sentiment I have also heard several times with good stories that I cherish that people simply write off as having a "power of friendship" narrative that somehow robs it of depth or meaning. I don't know if I ever cured myself of media cynicism; I still roll my eyes at the latest servings from Marvel because my brain can't help recognizing the pattern of Marvel's multi-tiered meganarrative. But at the very least I've been exposed to the worst kind of media nihilism that I can tell myself confidently that "I don't want to be _that_ person". And as a result, I've let myself be surprised by a lot of things in recent days than I have over the last few years.

[@something-from-elsewhere]

Honestly I feel like the most important thing you can learn from tvtropes would be the stuff in the "tropes are tools" section >w< (also that mother tuning out from everything everywhere all at once is so sad to me)

[@_Sixthstep]

A part of me found some genuine freedom in the conclusion to this video. Throughout my life, I've felt something akin to guilt for enjoying things that I knew that a lot of people disliked, that I knew were rated poorly, or that I even knew weren't objectively well made. I've kind of reached this "don't give a damn, I like what I like" attitude on my own in response to it, but I've never heard someone else conclude that either. Cheers!

[@kaleenar963]

This may be corny, but I’ve always thought of loving video games as similar to loving another person. To bystanders, they’re just like any other person with plenty of flaws, but to you, they’re special. You know all their flaws probably even better than others do, and yet you still love them. Even if others don’t feel the same way towards them, it doesn’t mean that your experience isn’t real. With people, this is a mostly well understood concept. When two people fall in love others go “Good for you!” not “That doesn’t make any sense! I don’t personally love them which means loving them is a physical impossibility!” (Usually, it depends) Whereas with video games people unrealistically expect everyone to have similar opinions because “They all played the same game, didn’t they?” The problem comes with the subjectivity of human perspective, everything in the world goes through hundreds of different filters in order to get into our brains and because everyone has a slightly different brain it means that everybody experiences everything differently. So in reality, every single person has a vastly different experience when playing a game, so who’s to say that the experience you had didn’t end up being a good one? Oops I just wrote an essay, sorry 😅

[@Theeight8b]

Nothing wrong in accepting something, that's considered (or maybe objectively bad), and having fun with that. Liking that. Sometimes people forgot, that criticism should come not from place of hate, but place of love and wanting something to be better than it is.

[@HardCodedGaming]

Sort of a chicken & egg scenario with this: When I had a major bout of depression (I got out, I'm doing great) I remember *not* being able to just let a movie engross me. (That "narrative transportation") I just saw camera angles, set construction, lighting, actors, and I'm not even a cinephile. If I knew as much about game dev as I do now, I'm sure I'd have seen animation blends, nav meshes, colliders, scripts. I could see the parts, and not lose myself in the sum of it. Thus furthering the depression because I couldn't just enjoy stories. Many years later, Night in the Woods really nailed the idea with its similarly afflicted protagonist talking about "everything just being shapes". NOT trying to diagnose anyone here, but if you're reading this and everything has felt that way to you lately, it might be time to look for someone to talk to. Good luck out there.

[@juanrodriguez9971]

The beauty of knowing about how things are made behind is that it makes it even more special when you forget about them because the product is so well done, i move it when a dialogue feels like something someone could say instead of something a writer wrote

[@Kotch666]

In a similar fashion, I am a student of law, and unfortunately, there was a time that whenever someone tells me news about someone dying, my mind instantly slips through the legal provisions surrounding succession law, and then only after I realize "Oh wait, shit.. A real person actually died."

[@something-from-elsewhere]

Gods that sounds awful haha -w-'

[@Redcloudsrocks]

I ALWAYS make sure I am fully invested and ready to take in the story and experience infront of me, if I feel like it's not the time, I wait. Same with horror movies etc. Get into the mood and everything first.

[@AsterBTT]

Same here. Its a big reason why I'm still waiting on playing through the RE4 Remake. I know that I have to be in the right frame of mind to really dive in and invest myself in it.

[@high.level.noob.]

Spoilers absolutely destroy the first time playthrough because it’s hard to consume things you know will happen. Also a spoiler video would be fire Daryl, keep up the good work 👍

[@Platitudinous9000]

You're totally right, and I prefer to let people experience things I enjoy with as little prior information as possible, but at the same time, it's not the worst? Some stories benefit from that surprise more than others, but ideally the execution and telling of a story should allow it to be compelling even when you already know what's gonna happen. It's why we can go back to a film and get something new out of it years later, it's why I'm scared to read "Goodbye, Eri" even after Daryl said so much about it earlier this year, it's why someone reading these comments might be willing to go watch Breaking Bad for the first time even after they've learned so much about it through cultural osmosis. A story should be good even after we know its twists and turns and tricks.

[@hopefulXime]

I tend to play games that wouldn’t play otherwise if its not for the juicy spoilers

[@high.level.noob.]

@@hopefulXime really interesting take. I have watched some shows or played games I’ve gotten spoilers for and I always thought: ”damn, I hope I wasn’t spoiled for that since otherwise that would’ve been an absolute banger” I would be lying if said I didn’t enjoy the shows/games I was spoiled about but I need to watch something for the first time without spoilers for it to be something special

[@helenaotam5596]

For avoiding spoilers is damn near impossible. Also if a game, movie, tv show, etc is that good. Ur immersion shouldn’t be crippled by being spoiled. I makes me enjoy the more minor things like the twist related to persona 5 royal. Granted there is the rare exception where that thing is so popular that even the tiny moment has been spoiler (ex. The last of us)

[@Alexzoidberg458]

I will always regret watching game grumps playthrough of TOTK before playing TOTK myself

[@bananasean5145]

You sir have just explained the appeal to the "Shut off your brain" entertainment. By acknowledging how ridiculous and unrealistic the media is at the start we ironically are able to immerse ourselves easier then watching something more artistic that engages our brain into a high level of thinking.

[@hyperpoints]

something that surprised me is that zen, meditation, and clearing my mind is something that helps me to check out and enjoy stuff. it takes practice to let go of all the thoughts in my head and let the game just take up space in the place of my own thoughts for the duration of the experience. but it’s amazing when i can do it. i think that’s what people mean by suspension of disbelief

[@Lincerr]

I find this very interesting, you do these meditations just before doing something you wish to enjoy? Or just as a daily habit and it can reflect in the games?

[@hyperpoints]

@@Lincerr I think it's a little bit of a daily habit. like it's basically just mindfulness. I think of it like, a practice of learning how to focus on one thing at a time, which is harder than it sounds sometimes. To let what I'm doing be what it is. And when I'm done experiencing a work of art this way, I can experience it again through a lense of analysis too. Analysis becomes an additional category of activity

[@delikatessbruhe9843]

Heyy awesome Christmas tree! As a (former) video game translator for me it's language analyzing that's super hard to turn off. I mostly play in English if that's the original language but my brain keeps and *keeps* going "How would I translate this?" "Wow, that's tough, I wonder what they did with that" to the point where I switch languages mid-game to check or play through multiple times (looking at you FF7 Remake) just to experience all "my" languages. And I'm genuinely interested in what I find but it can get tiresome too. It's a bit different than what you described but also not lol. And I don't have a solution, I think you said what there is to say. I kinda rather want to know if someone shares my compulsions... Oh and for my taste it's a bit much wrestling in this one but hey, it's your channel and it's great is has some personality.

[@DarylTalksGames]

It’s interesting you say that about translating because in a lot of ways this is sort of like seeing a word and not being able to just… NOT read it, ya know? Your brain just automatically does it if you see it. Oh and appreciate the love on the tree!

[@Tighris]

Man I can relate. I love language learning and it happens to me a lot that I can't fully immerse in a story because I "just have to look up that word" or "oh nice I learned that word recently" or "hu ... that's a weird way of using that word" etc... It helps with learning the language but also destroys the experience a little bit.

[@Amins88]

Funny you mention this. I'm currently in the process of casually learning Japanese and played through all of my first playthrough of TotK in that language. Also tried a bit of the German dub just for fun. I'm not entirely fluent in German and nowhere near capable with Japanese, but it was really interesting to still be able to pick out certain lines of the subtitles and know that it wasn't quite what they said. I'm not sure how you would "fix" this if you find it a problem. But I'd like to think of the advice my German teacher gave us. When speaking another language, don't translate from English in your head, you need to THINK in that language. And I feel like it might be a similar method for enjoying entertainment.

[@nyxqueenofshadows]

absolutely this, i'm playing the yakuza remasters atm (where they took a lot of translation liberties) and whenever something comes up in voiced japanese dialogue that's wildly off from what the english text is it blows me completely out of the scene. not necessarily negatively, but once i'm set off thinking about the language it's really difficult to go back into it and, like you, i'll go looking for the original text to look for differences and what the translators did (which is interesting and informative! but then i ask myself am i playing this or studying this, you know?). with any japanese media actually come to think of it. i don't know how to turn it off either 😅

[@patrickj]

This happens to me the other way round when consuming translated content. Sometimes I stumble over some particularly uncanny or unnatural wording, and my brain is immediately like "hey, this probably said X in the source language". And then you wonder if the translators didn't know better, were lacking context, or if it's just a machine translation that wasn't checked well enough, if at all.

[@RyanLelache]

Was so happy to see a clip of Frieren when you uttered the line "And to remember that the art you like best is best." No further notes. 👏

[@something-from-elsewhere]

So real, I honestly love Frieren. Always thought it was good but I've really been enjoying it lately~ Defo an all timer in my book

[@kallamatko]

This reminds me of something I realized after working as an artist for a couple of years. I definitely feel like the magic of observing most art has gone away due to the fact that I look at a painting, for example, and immediately think about how I could replicate that. I think about the technique, the colors used, where something similar has been done before, and if it could serve my own work in some way. I can never view art like I used to. But when it comes to something like music, which I know absolutely no theory about, I find myself usually unable to describe why I like it or what makes it good. Just like you said, I like it simply because I like it. Even the most basic cord progressions feel so magical to me. I'm sure a well trained musician would listen to a similar cord progression and think "oh that's just these two cords, it's used everywhere". It makes me enjoy my ignorance more I guess! I've had the urge to learn some kind of music theory, just so I'd be able to have a deeper understanding of why I enjoy the music I do, but this experience has ultimately led me to realize I'd rather not know, haha. Also, my knowledge on the process of art making hasn't ruined the craft for me. I'm able to engage with it on a deeper level each year and it brings immense fulfillment to my life. But it's nice to have something else I can enjoy without feeling the need to pick it apart. Great video to end the year on!

[@naikou1633]

I've found that it's actually pretty easy for me to get sucked into stories still, but I've also found that most of my favorite stories are meta fiction. Stuff like Doki Doki Literature Club, Umineko, Earthbound, The Truman Show, Barbie, etc. They're a good mix of the two ways of consuming media you explained and I love how their self awareness is utilized in the stories they tell. Not only are they great on their own, but they also make me think and I love thinking lol.

[@Blizzic]

It’s so funny that you and Super Eyepatch Wolf both uploaded videos with wrestling sections tucked into the middle in the same day

[@kylespevak6781]

1:38 I do this too. One of my obsessions is learning to deconstruct everything I like, so I watched tons of video essays and tutorials about how to make movies, video games and other types of media, as well as dabbled myself. It's a lot harder to just enjoy something

[@4daptability991]

I agree that defying expectations is necessary for a complex and engaging plot. Friedrich Nietzsche's _The Birth of Tragedy_ talks about how one of the most suspenseful play genres became very distilled, with the ending and plot twists being spoiled in the synopsis _before_ the play. Modern stories in blockbuster films rarely have the gall to truly end on depressing notes, making them much more predictable.

[@littlemonztergaming8665]

Risk management is a factor in deciding the ending (non-standard endings are more risky). However, most people just want a satisfying ending and experience. Trusting the author to make a worthwhile experience, and staying immersed in that crafted narrative. I remember one day in school a teacher presented The Twilight Zone's "Time Enough At Last - There Was Time Now". The bookworm is in a nuclear wasteland with all the time in the world but doesn't have his glasses to read. It's a tragic ending that stuck with me a lot longer than nearly 100 other movies. As long as the ending is satisfying it doesn't really matter if it's a depressing or happy note. In other words, people just want a satisfying ending and it's easier to achieve that with a happy one so naturally it'll be more common. There are tons of examples of depressing endings tho

[@theresnothinghere1745]

I disagree with that being a nessecity. There's plenty of media that I've consumed while being aware of the general outline of how it would play out and still found very engaging, while still being relatively complex. Predictably can ruin a story if it relies on the suprise factor but I don't think a geniunely well written piece is made unengaging by knowing what will unfold before hand.

[@besknighter]

I'm a Computer Engineer and in college one professor said "when you don't know how computers works, it seems otherworldly magic. Once you start learning about it, the illusion is broken and it feels trivial like the rest of things in life. However, the deeper you go, there'll be a point where everything starts to feel like magic again. You know exactly how things work and THAT is what makes you admire the beauty of the complexities involved. And do so with even greater wonder as when you knew nothing about it." I feel like this is true for all knowledge domains... Including video game literacy.

[@erdngtn9942]

For me it’s always Doctor Who that has me thinking “how did they pay anyone enough to say that with a straight face”

[@zovutnik]

I like how Daryl shares appreciation of Every Frame Is A Painting by showing it twice lol. miss this channel a lot, its one of the greatest "echoes" of the past life

[@lukeskywalkerthe2nd773]

You've definitely hit the nail on the head, Daryl, with what i myself have been feeling as well for a while about this. While on one hand i am grateful we live in an age where it is much easier to be literate on the technical aspects of media, be if gaming, film, etc, it also comes with the downside that everyone is kind've a "critic" in a way, and just how far down the rabbit hole you can go with that to the detriment of your enjoyment. I think it's just healthy to just step away from that every now and then and just simply remember why you love media in the first place! :)

[@sacrificiallamb4568]

Exactly. Youngsters can't enjoy a movie these days. They either hate it or it has to be ironic. If this is what's next, no more genuine movies, only this. Watching a movie and not seeing it. Being in the same room as a movie.

[@CramerGamer99]

Most people I have met have the same experience as you, and it always baffles me. I have no issue with analyzing something, knowing how it's made, and even thinking it could be more enjoyable to me if done differently- without being overwhelmingly critical and negative about it. Because I don't share the "problem" and I don't think I'm inherently different from anyone else, I think the difference is one of attitude and perspective. Frankly, I think people are too negative and too egocentric. The wrestling forums you showed as a case study easily applies to criticism to other media, including games. People get so caught up in what they think a thing should be, or what a thing isn't, that it supercedes what the thing is actually trying to be and what they got out of the experience that actually exists. They express this through outward displays of negativity to what the thing is, and egocentric displays of how their ideas or "understanding" would supposedly make the thing better. I find that in a lot of these cases, the audience thinking they are experts is just a straight up Dunning-Kruger effect- they think they know how this thing would be better, and they think it confidently. Yet they often have never actually created this kind of thing before, and have limited and at most, 2nd or 3rd hand knowledge of what the craft is like. There is often also a second layer of egocentric thinking too- a lack of respect for the artist, their work, and the idea that the artist should create what they like or want. Instead these types of criticisms are always razor focused on how they should get what they want, defining "good" and "bad" around their own personal (or perceived group) desires. It is so rare to see analysis and criticism that focuses on the author and their goals, or the art itself as it actually exists instead of a personal idea of what it "should" be. What did the author want to make, and did they accomplish that? What is the thing as it is, why is it the way it is? Instead criticism is almost always superficial and egocentric. "This dialogue is annoying (to me).", "I can't take it seriously because I can tell it is CGI", ect. It's all superficial, and doesn't actually do a good job at analyzing the work or offering anything constructive for the artist. Instead it usually boils down to some variation of "I don't personally like this element of this thing, so therefore that element is bad and should be changed to be something different." It tells me more about the person making the judging critique than it does about the art or the artist. I learn about the critics personal tastes, but I don't learn anything new about the art or the artist. The only thing the artist can take away from it is "This person doesn't like that thing", which is relatively mild as criticism- and is usually amplified by the critic using more insulting, demeaning, or otherwise offensive language. And this is why it is baffling to me. The more I learn about the creation process and the artists behind it, the more I am impressed by the things created, and the more beautiful it all seems to me. Creating things is hard as fuck!! It takes a lot of skill, time, dedication, and effort to make even simple things. The fact that people generally turn their nose up and disregard that effort and accomplishment because it doesn't fit some imagined idealized product that fits all of their personal tastes is a really upsetting state of affairs to me. The narcissism of people who just casually speak and act like they know and could make better, when often they have never made anything like that themselves in their lives makes it even more distressing. I don't understand how or why higher "literacy" has lead to the reactions and treatment people have towards creative works and their creators. I almost feel like it is less about literacy, and more like how surface level literacy combined with Dunning-Kruger and a lack of authentic respect for art/artists leads to confidently believing in and spreading incorrect information. It's sad and unhealthy for society to talk about media and fiction in that way. It contributes to judgemental and persecuting behavior like the people who say the Frieren anime is pro-racism (and therefore so are it's creators and fans) because of how the show portrays demons and justifies Frieren's attitude towards them. Or how people mock and belittle or otherwise antagonize others for enjoying X game (which they don't like for personal reasons/preferences) instead of Y game (which they do like, also for personal reasons/preferences). Like the extremely dumb internet arguments over Baldur's Gate 3 winning GOTY instead of Spiderman 2. Very unhealthy arguments were had over social media on that topic.

[@PatrikOrjes]

Many years ago I analyzed every movie, game etc I consumed. I was under the impression that this was the correct way of consuming media, you had to be able to properly critique the things you consumed. I eventually realized that I was no longer enjoying myself and I made an effort to analyze less and enjoy myself more. I still analyze media to some extent of course but now I spend way more time actually enjoying movies and games for what they are. My life is far better for it.

[@Arauto_Kagnos]

Agreed, media literacy is very important but I feel like art is something that must be felt more than so just coldly analyzed.

[@cullenlatham2366]

Yeah, i have consumed enough to "see things coming" from a mile away in most cases, but it rarely ruins stories for me. It is OK that i know what is coming, it just means when the story catches up, i feel smarter for getting there first. It is a matter of mindset. When i stop having fun with something, i walk away from it. Whether it is for a few minutes, an hour, a day, a week, or forever, i tend to know what types of stories i am in the mood for, what conventions i can overlook at any point in time, and how to enjoy what i am experiencing. I can turn off my brain for bad movies or games enough to "enjoy" it for its effort, then have some fun picking it apart later in conversation. Not everyone has to agree with me, and i am OK with that as long as they are respectful about it. I can try to convince others, but when it becomes clear i am "talking to a brick wall" that wont budge or someone who disagrees strongly enough that i wont convince them, i walk away from the conversation or leave it at some variant of "agree to disagree", respectively. There is no problem consuming media at a higher level as long as you can come to terms with what that means. You might not have the right words to convince someone of your opinion, but it does not make it any less valid. Pick your fights accordingly and dont linger on fights that cant be "won".

[@vivafringe]

This reminds me of Plato's cave. Our words are woefully inadequate for describing the entirety of our subjective experience, and at best they only outline a "shadow" of it. Over time we slowly confuse the shadow (our analysis) for the real thing, and lose the ability to engage with what caused us joy and delight in the first place.

[@dunar1005]

22:55 meditation about letting things flow and don’t follow every thought, is the method to overcome this.

[@RaevGames]

Frieren has fixed the problem as you have laid it out in the first part of the video. I have been thoroughly enjoying that show and just that. It's the first media that has done this with me, where I haven't been thinking about any little detail for days or weeks after watching the episode. And it felt like there has been a weight lifted and I hope I can find more experiences like that in the future.

[@ZephyrK_]

I feel like that’s due to there being no huge overarching goal in the story thus far. Each episode is essentially just a day in each of the parties lives and it just works.

[@something-from-elsewhere]

@@ZephyrK_ It's very soft in that way and I find it refreshing~

[@D3cuca]

I've had the same "problem" since the moment I studied psychology and even more when I started to learn to be a game developer... It happens to me with almost every game and a lot of media content... But there are some games that have been able to break that and make me feel like a wondering child again ☺️ I've got no clue what has made these games achieve it but I'm always grateful when it happens ! A lot of times it's even in a game that I wasn't expecting! And that's also, as you said it, why meta narratives are so appealing to me ! Thanks for these years and the years to come! Once again, your content is incredible and a big inspiration for me ! ❤️

[@DarylTalksGames]

See that has to be the people that have it the worst, those that actually work with the creation of fiction in any way. Because you’re initiated, ya know? Haha Thanks so much, looking forward to what’s next!

[@D3cuca]

@@DarylTalksGames Well a little bit 😅 But at least there are still games that are so powerfull that, for the most part, I'm submerged by the gameplay or the story, like ToTK, Inscryption and most lately, XCOM 2 ! And also I feel like the best way to consume video game media with this "curse" is to watch somebody I love play a game I love! That way I don't feel weird about analysing everything and I also get the enjoyment of seeing someone I love get caught up by the game ☺️

[@kyleshank3411]

Love the annual somewhat-related-to-wrestling video every time.

[@mikedelgrande5296]

I guess I’m still a child then because I’m 40 and will baw my eyes out when a character dies. In fact, I can’t rewatch anime like Your Lie in April and Clannad because it’s just too painful. I don’t look down and realize I’m just playing a game or watching a show, I am that game or show. I am those characters and their death will affect me for a very long time. I don’t analyze it at all. I’m completely consumed by these worlds.

[@SmolShippie]

I have hypersensitivity to all five senses so if I find a game with enticing enough graphics and audio my brain will refuse to acknowledge anything but that, it will be programmed to consume and refuse to analyse

[@salesbird4919]

I fully acknowledge that this feeling is my own and everyone goes about this differently. But that "Break it down" Mindset sort of goes hand in hand with Immersion for me. The more I like something the more I have the urge to stick around and really break it into digestible bits. If I don't like something then acknowledging it's failures and what not can often become tiresome and boring. Though I've never personally been very enraptured by stories even as a kid. But ever since I can remember, the act of consuming and analyzing media have never been concepts in contest for me.

[@rhael42]

same here. the more I enjoy something the more I analyze it, and the more I analyze something the more immersed I get. The two concepts are a feedback loop for me, not mutually exclusive.

[@LegendaryCard]

I've been going thru a lot recently and I've been binging your videos. Thank you so much for the amount of work and thought you put into these videos, because they have been helping me think more about my life. That small "Have yourself, damn good one" keeps making me tear up so just thank you again for everything you do.

[@untuxable5076]

Our enjoyment shifts from one kind to another as our experience and understanding of a medium grows. While 5-year-old me was fascinated with a straightforward narrative about super hero punches bad guy, adult me watches the same story unfold with less interest in the narrative and more interest in the animation, shot framing, voice work, etc. It's not better or worse, just different, and takes some getting used to for sure. You hit that nail on the head about us "fiction snobs" and enjoying works that intentionally subvert our established expectations. I sometimes worry how that's impacting the overall landscape of TV, movies, and video games for a younger generation. If the most popular things are geared towards the fiction snobs who aren't entertained with a simpler story, is there anything left for the newcomers? For example: I'm playing through Crash Bandicoot 4 right now and LOVING IT. There are so many things to do, so many secrets, so many cheeky references and throwbacks; as an OG Crash fan, I'm loving it. But would my 6-year-old nephew enjoy this game as much as I enjoyed the OG Crash, or would he bounce off of it because it's not geared towards him anymore? Does my nephew even have a good entry point into this hobby anymore, or is it all for us fiction snob adults? It's probably not as bleak as that, but it makes me wonder.

[@Yozora_Jan]

There is a beauty in being naive to the way things are "supposed" to be or how they always turn out. I think one of the key factors that keeps my childlike enjoyment of media is keeping the experience entirely to myself. I actively avoid social media for the things that I love because even if the media is flawed or if its "just like other things" My personal experience with that media and how engrossed I become while consuming it is so special to me that Id never want to take that away from myself more than my mind already automatically does because of how much we as people learn. Its one of the few things I'm okay with being naive about.

[@Arauto_Kagnos]

Honestly this is why I mostly tend to focus on whether or not the fiction I'm consuming makes me feel something instead of just analysing, not that I don't see the value in analytical outlooks on fiction but its not my primary focus when I'm engaging with it. My focus is and shall always be whether or not it interests me, if I find it engaging or not, I do not care how it ranks compared to other fiction or even if I can see some plot points coming from a mile away, whether or not people are also enjoying it is irrelevant to me I'll form my own opinion on whether not the piece of fiction is good based on my own experiences. Provided I'm having a fun time with it that's really all that matters to me.

[@ninalima4150]

honestly the setting where im consuming a piece of media can have an effect on how i consume it. like because a movie theater is dark and there's no other stimuli besides the movie, it's easy for me to get sucked into the story and enjoy it for what it is. but if i'm watching a movie in my living room while my family is being loud and doing their own thing, i struggle focusing on enjoying the movie and start wondering "where have i seen this actor before?" "is that special effects?" "oh there's that symbol again, what could it mean?" because i can look those things up or talk to someone in the same room as me.

[@BoginaMaria]

I think it also has to do a lot with the feel of needing to analyze something. Like in your case it's for the channel and together with the schedule you've described in the backlog video I think it's the pressure of "i have to watch and analyze it, because i won't have time to analyze it later". And for the general feel - like with all the discussions in the internet and around you, you kinda feel that a simple "i liked it" is not enough and doesn't "count" as an opinion.

[@CrimsonVow]

For me, I feel that I've started enjoying the games I play more after part of the initial hype has died down. I love talking about a game after I'm done with it, but when a it is so big that it consumes social media for a time, it just makes it harder for me to immerse myself or turn my brain off. It's like by the time I boot the game up (or even start the show / movie) I've already burned out on it, because I've already seen several hot takes and clips of the game, just by scrolling through my feed during the day.

[@RPGgrenade]

I'm a game developer and designer, but also a hobbyist comic artist and just do... well... lots of things. I know how the sausage is made for so many different things. I've gotten to the point that I've completely given up on discussions on whether these things are "good" or "bad" and instead focus on the analytical aspect. Media critique has gotten so cringe to me at this point. A thing I do when it comes to reading comics/manga, watching anime/shows/movies, or playing videogames is particular to me and I doubt many others know this feeling very well. But basically I am capable of shutting off the analytical brain so that it becomes... more of a "whisper", and the enjoying brain as the "loud one". When it's something I'm really enjoying I can easily just shut off the whisper entirely, as well. However when it comes to videogames (the nature of the job being you gotta know how the shit works by playing it) that doesn't quite work anymore. Instead it's gotten to the point where the whispers feel more like subtle nudges, instead of being merely impressed by this or that or what have you (which I often save for moments of pause) it's almost like I can hear the thoughts of the people who designed this stuff. I can hear the thoughts (albeit more of a feeling) of the guy who placed that mountain, the idea behind making the UI a certain way, the intention of the area I'm currently in. Nothing to do with story or world building, but rather the game design itself. And it honestly is such a nice feeling because it's like a merging of the enjoyer brain and the analytical brain of media consumption. It's like I'm having the wide eye kid-like feelings TOWARDS the analysis itself. It's an odd thing to describe.

[@JustSomeWanderer.]

For me it’s about a happy middle ground. I love learning how the things I love work and critiquing the art I engage with. But I also make sure to give it the room it needs to “work” me. I always try to remember that artists make the content I consume. This doesn’t mean I just love everything put in front of me, but it does let me enjoy new forms of media just as much as I did when I was a kid.

[@abandoned__]

personally im keeping away from any spoilers for anything. when bg3 first came out i avoided videos about it like the plague (and still do) just so i can play it again and again and again in that blissful, immersed state before eventually giving into the analysing state hopefully years down the line

[@something-from-elsewhere]

I try to give less shits about spoilers these days honestly. I find I can still enjoy most things whether or not I've been "spoiled" outside some amount of weird metafiction but there is only so much popular metafiction I _haven't_ played or watched myself >w

[@abandoned__]

@@something-from-elsewhere that's fair ! and it probably is easier and better that way, to be honest. i just find it so much more special and immersive to pretend no one else knows about it hahah

[@maveroni4154]

Another thing, I think Fnaf Security Breach shows how not every game needs to be critically enjoyed. Sometimes you know a game is bad compared to others, or everyone says it’s bad. But you enjoy it because it’s not great, or because of its flaws. The glitches are what makes security breach, and for some it’s their introduction to the entire franchise. We can look at a game and know it’s flawed while still enjoying it because we don’t need to be critical about everything we play or enjoy. The same can be said for how we can watch and enjoy a movie despite knowing the way it’ll play out like a million movies in the same genre, we simply can just let it be and enjoy it.

[@ArtemisWasHere]

At this point I enjoy analyzing the hell out of my favourite art, because I realized I while ago I want to make it. They are lessons for how to make my ideas a reality Merry Christmas Daryl!

[@GeniusMonster274]

My big immersion breaker is voice actors: I’ve gotten pretty good at identifying quickly who is voicing a character, but then all I can think of is that actor standing in the booth recording the lines for that character. Best solution I’ve found for this is to -as much as possible- avoid finding pictures of VAs so the picture stays incomplete.

[@WuhHuh]

I’ve often recognized the same voices between different characters, although I don’t know too many of their names. Regardless, hearing Fix-It-Felix voice Wander didn’t take me out of it, but rather it felt like a nice tie to other stuff that I like. It was like a cameo for the people who have heard those voices before.

[@SimplyMayaB1994]

I actually study something related to this in my PhD project in culture and media studies, though my focus isn't on fiction narrative media. It was really fun to watch someone explore it, very insightful too!

[@Paozits]

Dude, that door knock effect had no business being SO real, I had to get up to check my door

[@exile1373]

I have a friend who always goes analyszing mode with anything they play or watch, and they enjoy if theyre right but it kinda drives me crazy cause I only do that on replays/rewatches lol. Really does make a difference personally

[@raisylvaine8398]

1:38 I theorize and analyze media I enjoy because that’s part of how I enjoy it. I love theorizing and feeling surprised when something else happens or I’m right!

[@ElMedkit]

I always try to remind myself that im no critic or reviewer and should just enjoy what im consuming. But i can’t lie, i love media that wants me to do that since i just can’t help it! Great vid as always! Here’s to next year :D

[@bzargoodboy]

I'm comfortable in the camp of knowing what makes media interesting and allowing those elements to move me anyway. If something is able to suspend my disbelief while I'm actively playing defense, then it's done its job.

[@JaxlamKing]

As a fellow JJK fan, my condolences brother. Also, great video as always, Daryl! Happy holidays and have a great new year.

[@Zeee530]

I'm about to start s2 so I guess I should expect a main character dying, I probably çan guess who it is from where he cuts off the scene whenever he mentions it

[@TheRopiak]

@@Zeee530 Expect happiness to be stolen from you while showing you the most amazing fights ever

[@p-i-es-u-c-c]

HAVEN'T FINISHED THE VIDEO YET,. SEEMS GREAT, BUT OMG CROSSCODE SHOWN IN THE BG (at 7:58)?!?! THANK YOU THAT'S AWESOOOME!!

[@R1PP3RR0M3R0]

As an overly involved Pro Wrestling fan who has seen my enjoyment of Wrestling, Gaming & Film go down because of weird over analyzing (probably because of my Pro Wrestling fandom), I needed this video. Incredibly well made and seeing things like r/SquaredCircle in a video like this means a lot.

[@Anomanderiss]

This actually helped me put something into words I've been trying to explain to myself. When people are reviewing a game or media, they're often at different points along that spectrum. So while some people might have been immersed in a narrative, others will be making comparisons to previous experiences. It's not often mentioned what kind of perspective is being given but I suppose it helps if you follow the same reviewers and relate more to where they're coming from.

[@Ikcatcher]

A friend chastised me recently for liking mediocre games because it “means you’re complacent for devs to make shit games” and that honestly irked me. Must every game these days need to be a perfect 10/10 cinematic masterpiece just to be considered “fun”? Is it wrong to find the fun in flawed products that you know aren’t the best experiences but it’s something you can just vibe with? My friend sees my expectations of fun to be ”a low bar”, I however see it as a comfort.

[@night1952]

I'd argue that a fun game can't be mediocre, if anything it's the mark of a good game. Have some examples, of both those "mediocre" games as well as the cinematic masterpieces.

[@Zuhnado]

I never consider any game a perfect 10/10 but there can be masterpieces that even then have flaws. Those "high expectations" from your friend is because they aren't acknowledging any flaws in their favorite games. I think ppl liking/disliking games is up to preferences and personal experiences in the end but hating that hard on your likes is harsh.

[@micheller3251]

This! I had a similar discussion with a friend who said that a certain very popular anime was bad because the "plot twists" were predictable and the tropes weren't being subverted enough, as if the only possible reason to enjoy something is if it's an absolutely revolutionary piece of media. That's just snobbism imo. I used to get mad at it but now I kinda just brush it aside unless they're making a more nuanced point.

[@joesizzle10]

This is so true, I recently played Wizard of Legend and hated it because of the lack of variety and frustrating difficulty, I was so focused on comparing it to other roguelikes that I never stopped and tried to enjoy it for what it was. Looking back, I know its a 6/10, but I still liked it and had fun with it, which is what matters

[@theresnothinghere1745]

As I see it a single good moment is worth several bad moments. Even if a game is on the whole bad it can still be very fun to play if you personally enjoy its strengths. As an example I don't think Made in the Abyss Binary Star is a good game but I still enjoyed it alot because of the strength of its survival elements. Despite the combat boring me, despite the story being mediocre, despite the visuals being weak, despite several of the games systems just being a pain to deal with. Its a game that would be considered mediocre/bad to the audience its trying to sell the experience of delving to, but for people who can forgive everything for the survival elements it'll be a fun game.

[@parkerevans6829]

Man I’ve been feeling this for quite a while. To the point I thought I didn’t even like movies or tv anymore. And then Alan Wake 2 came out and it sparked my interest in revisiting Twin Peaks. And that show is a masterpiece. And it reminded me why I love movies and TV. And suddenly I found myself able to enjoy other forms of media again. Maybe the solution is to watch or play something truly profound or inspiring. Something that reminds you why you fell in love with it in the first place, why you analyze to the point of knowing too much. And like you said just enjoying something for the sake of enjoying it. That not everything has to be a masterpiece, sometimes things are just good.

[@nicklafleur7620]

This actually perfectly describes how i feel about horror movies that try too hard to be a metaphor. Babadook, smile, lights out. These movies make it so obvious that they are .etaphors for trauma and mental illness that each story beat seems more like another layer of a metaphor rather than things actually happening to our characters

[@kaleenar963]

Both my least favorite horror things and my most favorite horror things have hidden metaphors for trauma/mental illness and other IRL fears. That’s how horror works, it tries to discreetly push those same primal buttons in new and interesting ways. It’s all in the execution though, you need to have these kind of things tastefully layered throughout the narrative structure as a bonus for the nerds, not the entire selling point of the film. If nothing makes any sense on the surface level no one will be invested enough to dig deeper.

[@nicklafleur7620]

@@kaleenar963 sorry it took 2 months to reply, but I fully agree with everything you say, and I think it's that "discreet" part that many horror movies are missing. If it can subconsciously tap into hidden fears that we all have, that's fantastic. When it has to point out what those fears are, or makes it way too obvious what it's trying to push, it's no longer scary

[@Loansome_]

As someone pursuing game design and 3D art, and learning about how games and media are made, it is both really cool and kinda sucky how the rest of the world views media and how it's created. It's cool that people are still in many ways blind to game development and making animations, as they are able to just sit back and enjoy things while living their own lives. They don't know anything so every game feels special. But there's that other part that makes some things that much more enjoyable when you know how things work behind the scenes. But also, if everyone knows how some piece of media is made, more pressure is put on the devs to try and make something that CAN blow people away. I guess it's like food, everyone knows how to cook so it's just that much harder for anyone to eat something and truly feel blown away by it.

[@jordentacoztm]

Sometimes when reading a book (yes I read books) I remember that all of this dialogue was written by one person and that even though I (think) I want the conflict to be over and for the main characters to succeed, I actually want them to fail and face conflict fisrt. If I got what I "wanted" the story would be very short and dissapointing, I usually realize this when the main characters almost succeed at their goal or just barely miss something important.

[@dartencorewood2421]

Interestingly enough, I almost never have this problem: usually dissecting the media that I like makes it the media that I love. When I see how masterfully the narrative tricked me, or how likeable the characters are, or hear the banger soundtrack (yes, I'm playing Persona 5 right now, how can you tell?), I basically jump back and forth in and out of immersion. The only times when that does break the wow-effect is when the art wasn't so great to begin with, at least for me (not to say it was bad - for example, I just can't dig a DMC series, doesn't click). And you are so very right - liking art is not a competition.

[@thebreadhead2000]

That's exactly why I can't watch and enjoy horror movies. My brain goes "it's not real, don't bother"

[@flameflyer42]

I'm kinda the opposite, I know it's not real, but that doesn't stop me from being heartbroken from all the suffering the characters go through in horror, whether they "deserve" it or not - so in a way, I "hate" horror, and I respect those who do enjoy it, they're definitely braver than me!

[@kaleenar963]

You know, if you aren’t getting any enjoyment trying to sympathize with the protagonists and feel their fear, you could try connecting with the antagonist and go on a vicarious power trip. I’ve tried that and it’s fun.

[@Dave-vy9yo]

On the topic of always being subconsciously aware of developer intent, I've recently been playing The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles (I am right now at case 2-5 in fact), and while it rekindled the love I have for the Ace Attorney franchise in multiple ways, there was always the problem. Most of the time, I wasn't thinking about how I should solve the mysteries, I was thinking about how the developers wanted me to solve the problems, and I personally think that took away from the experience, especially given the easy of access to saving and reloading (though that's been a problem since the very first Ace Attorney). The problem with this, I think case 2-2 is one of the best examples that I won't spoil, but it's the fact that, as you said, we develop such a good sense of catching on to the foreshadowing that we instantly jump to conclusions, which not only kills Ace Attorney's mysteries narratively, but also mechanically, because while the story of the game still works under the assumption that the characters, understandably, don't have the mystery cracked yet, nevertheless we know - or at least make reasonable assumptions - of what the answer is, which creates a huge gap of disconnect between reader and story that is hard to ignore, especially since the game is inorganically forcing us backtrack our own train of thought, which can feel condescending. However, I do also believe that one of the problems is the punishment that comes with getting an answer wrong. The penalty system, at this stage in the franchise, only exists because it is a staple of it and it was added in the first place because, as a videogame, it understandably needed a game over state; however, the punishment is so permanent that it discourages players from actually experimenting and daring get an answer wrong, which I feel would actually elevate the sense of mystery and suspense that the cases strive to hold. If you get an answer wrong, at any time during a trial, you get penalized in one of five tries before a game over occurs, and given how long some trial segments can get - and the fact you only get restored your tries between entire days - really discourages experimentation and instead actively makes you think "okay time to figure out WHAT the developers want me to think so I don't get a game over", much to the game's detriment. I think that both Ace Attorney Investigations managed a great middle-ground between punishment and lienancy - you get more chances at punishment during investigations, yes, but at the same time you truth bar is more readily replenished between segments, which also feel much shorter and helps in making mistakes less daunting and thus encourage more exploration while at the same time still requiring the level of critical thinking the game expects instead of mindlessly throwing evidence at every statement.

[@RGC_animation]

What a great and insightful video this is, I couldn't have said it better myself! Now time to break it down and analyze it frame by frame and look forward to a 5 hours retrospection of this video coming soon in theatres near you.

[@ymotle]

I think that the most obvious example of this are the shonen shows, you know that the good guys are going to break their limits to beat the ods so what becomes important turns to be the HOW the gonna make it and if thats immersive

[@Crisjola]

This is exactly the kind of phenomena that Indie animation is running into currently. Between Twitter/X, Reddit, AMAs, Theory Channels… everything, unless there is a source material that is making an indie show closer to an adaptation (Lackadaisy comes to mind as one of the few that isn’t an anime picked up Webtoon/similar) people think they know everything, and the assumption that they do, has caused a lot of weird bitterness amongst people I’d class as “former” fans (they’ve yet to join the Hatedom). The sheer fact that I have seen _multiple_ people talking about how “Murder Drones doesn’t really have a plot and is forcing the audience to figure it out” when the _only reason_ they think, or assume, that, when Murder Drones is _very_ tightly plotted, is because it’s taken two+ years to roll out six episodes, is mind boggling. I have, personally, deliberately, desensitized myself (using fanfic canon -adjacent AUs, and the confusing existence of the _Fate_ franchise, I know, boo-hiss) to be able to know that I will be able to immerse myself into the world of Hazbin Hotel because so much of the plot has been kept hush hush, and the (tiny but important) intricacies of the world haven’t been lore dropped and will show up in the show itself as important linchpins in the show itself that over studying a trailer, or released stills, or just my _stupid_ amount of personal knowledge of mythology and history (which has created two logical inconsistencies with a character, both revolving around how they originally died as a human) that I could ruin something I’ve been looking forward to for years by not just accepting that I don’t know. That whatever I have reasoned out (the Radio Demon clearly has frost bitten limbs, which match his modern/western Wendigo based mythos, but functioned and lived in Louisiana/New Orleans which means that couldn’t have happened, and in 1933 it’s much harder to headshot someone and also mistake them for a deer while also hunting with dogs, ergo, neither of these two things can exist even if you bend over backwards to make it so) as “should be canon” (basically falling into the FNAF “let’s predict the plot of the next game before it’s out” trap) simply cannot be. And that me following production bread crumbs has allowed me to craft an alternate universe of what the real story might be. And like any other fan who comes up with theories and knows how the writers write, or the tropes the show runners enjoy having in their series, and everything else… I have to section it off as AU. Just like I would be extremely frustrated if I was still expecting Helluva Boss to be a sit-com, as it’s gotten more involved and fleshed out in the back half of season one and most/all of season two. Being able to separate myself (especially as someone who is writing my own original fiction) from what information I’m given by the devs or the creators, or even pre-created source material (Lackadaisy comic, or Invincible had I read it) is vital to allowing my suspension of disbelief to remain intact. It’s a trait I had to start actively developing due to the Hatedom revolving around HB/HH, _and_ the _utter insanity_ of Faz-goo and Sea-Bonnies if you branch off into the novellas of FNAF.

[@kaleenar963]

Okay I do like Murder Drones but I think that criticism is valid because… like… I just don’t get it half the time. Like I’ll start a new episode and new stuff will be happening and I’ll go “Wait this doesn’t make any sense, did I miss something? Oh maybe the episode is about to explain it. It’s like a mystery or something.” but then it doesn’t and I go “??? What just happened? Why is nobody else this confused?” and that’s like almost every episode except maybe a few at the beginning. At this point I’ve completely given up on the plot and just watch it so I can have pretty colors and sounds happen at me. It’s possible I’m just a big idiot dumb dumb, and it might make more sense if I watch one of those “lore explained” videos but like, I don’t want to? Why can’t the thing just make sense on its own? I doubt that Glitch Productions is maliciously trying to make the story ambiguous so that they can steal fan theories like some kind of shoddy mascot horror shovelware, but it does feel like the fanbase is doing a lot of legwork to keep the story engaging to themselves.

[@bli2z4rd]

This video made me remember The Vampire Diaries. Remember that show? Where almost everyone never TRULY dies? While I was watching that show I couldn't help but think about how the fan service was HEAVY in there. Oh, they killed Caroline and ended the episode on that cliffhanger? Not to worry, I'm sure she will be brought back tomorrow for sure because the show can't let go of their characters. Even villains were always getting back. This made me feel numb everytime something bad happen to any character. Dragon Ball also abused that with that "revive everyone" with the spheres. You just can't feel anything anymore because these shows taught that it was not that serious, thus making every major event something trivial.

[@crstph]

very true, but honestly for vampire diaries after a certain point i don’t think that was necessarily an objectively bad thing. game of thrones was trying to create a realistic world with legitimate high emotional stakes rooted in political intrigue. vampire diaries was cheesy, campy melodrama. (TL;DR: i go on a tangent about why the way tvd treats death is not an issue for me. sorry for the essay im overcaffeinated) i say this as someone with a literature degree under some kind of mysterious curse where i have to rewatch tvd semi-regularly, who has spent a long time trying to understand the hold this mediocre show has on me. i think for tvd, the point was in the characters, so legitimately killing them off just for the sake of keeping the viewers on their toes would not have actually improved the show. every character dated every character, not because thats realistic at all, but because we wanted to see how these new character and relationship dynamics would play out while they’re also fighting some near-irrelevant evil. WE might not have thought the characters would die, but the CHARACTERS did (somehow) and that by-proxy tension was enough. also, carolines death turning her into a vampire was one of the most compelling arcs for me; her fear and terror discovering these things happening to her from an ignorant perspective, her growth in self-confidence (making her a much more bearable character) that eventually foils elenas reaction; that showed me that bringing characters back didn’t have to be a cheap option, as long as there was SOME sort of narrative consequence. the real problem with the show was the necessary group amnesia for any actions to make sense after a certain point in the story. everyone has the knowledge and relationship history of a minor god, and yet somehow i’m supposed to buy that you don’t know about this new mythical creature that is supposedly a big enough threat to actually make anything different happen. you lost me

[@JimFaindel]

Fun fact about that one MHA scene you used: it was entirely anime original, the manga cut straight from the start of that fight to the finale, so I like to think they really did choose to present it that way.

[@Saaaten]

the muscular one?

[@JimFaindel]

The fight between Overhaul and Mirio@@Saaaten

[@manakajunpei9007]

An example I can make is about "Your name" I did enjoy it and then move on. Later on, when talking about it with some friends came out something like "it have huge plotholes etc" and personally I did notice anything nor I fully understand which one there is.

[@littlelum9773]

I've always felt bad that I was unable to be part of "high level" discussions and the like, but this video made me realize that it's not a bad thing.

[@ew275x]

5:30 That's how it was also in the manga, rapidly skipping through the fight in those panels.

[@calebbridges4748]

Getting lost in analysis sauce is possible, but analysis isn't at odds with wonder. The "experts" bit is hilarious. If one's analysis isn't adding to one's enjoyment, then it's a mashochistic fantasy at best. I love narrative transportation. But what pulls me out of it is often the fiction itself. Plenty of stories lately don't respect themselves. Suspension of disbelief with regard to consumption/analyzation wowed me. People can't do both!? I'm always on both tracks. You can't listen and talk at the same time. But you can listen on two levels at once if your head isn't inside your rear. Edit: lemme expound upon stories that don't respect themselves. We keep getting stories that seem to not speak the language. They imitate speaking the language. The imitation is clear that it is serving only $$$. That is easy to pull one out. Rather than giving the story the benefit of the doubt, it's becoming easier to check out early. Game of Thrones worked because it communicated tone early. When stories go "oh the audience has it figured out!? Time to SUBVERT," they are just doing themselves a disservice.

[@haldir108]

I love the use of frieren as an example. One of my higher level thoughts, after an episode, has been about how much i've been able to just chill out and not be in analysis mode for an unusually large portion of it. I just lean back, smile at the jokes, and relax with the characters.

[@DanteMoraes]

I see like this: knowing how some stuff are made actually makes you enjoy it even more, like drinks. Or paintings, if you ever painted and you know how hard it is you'll appreciate them even more

[@RamblePak64]

Pre-emptive apologies for yet another novel of a response. I think, firstly, overexposure to media may be a problem. As technology advances and these art forms become more influential, the quantity of things being made increases exponentially. For many, "consumption" is the name of the game, which, admittedly, is a term I typically use in a negative light. Consume, digest, excrete out to consume next thing. However, the idea presented in this video is different, as it results in part from genre savvy. The funny thing about genre savvy is it can lead to an over-obsession with post-modernism, or confuse post-modernism alone with cleverness. There's an obsession with "the meta" that I THINK is gradually dying as sincerity begins to take hold again, but who can tell in this day and age. Regardless, when you are a child, as you observe, everything is new. When you are older, you have experienced the old adage that there is nothing new under the sun. The funny thing is, one of the many origins of this quote (as it is attributed to many places) is the book of Ecclesiastes, which is itself a navel-gazing examination on the purpose of life and how to find meaning in it, if it's even worth finding meaning at all. In following with the book of Ecclesiastes (really didn't expect to be making this reference in a KZbin comment about enjoying video games and wrestling today), I think it's possible to be genre savvy yet enjoy these things regardless. Do you enjoy them the same way? No, and I don't think it is a problem for that reason. I saw Godzilla Minus One last weekend, and while I greatly enjoyed it as a lifelong Godzilla fan, I did not have the same response to it as many others have had. Similarly, I was shocked when someone told me the ending had them in tears. I did not have any such reaction since my mind was wondering similar things, but I don't think that means my experience suffered. However, that might also be a matter of perspective. While certain story beats may not have been surprising to me, other aspects of the film were. I am going to purchase the film on Blu-Ray, and I am going to watch it multiple times and perhaps even look up interviews because there's a variety of deeper, more intricate elements of this film that I want to figure out what makes it work. I think this is the advantage to having knowledge and wisdom regarding media and how it's put together. People lament that "the magic is lost", but on the contrary, I say the magic has changed. Perhaps it's closer to that of a reverse engineer, one that likes to tinker and take things apart in order to figure out how things work, even if they don't know how to put it back together. The danger, I think, comes more in what you mentioned as story snobbery. It's not the story snobbery itself, but I'd say it's the social media snobbery. The nature of online engagement and interactions being relegated to status bars, likes, and upvotes as well as memes has changed the nature of communication, and now one's thoughts must, consciously or subconsciously, be distilled into a bite-sized "take". Opinions aren't offered as opinions, they're offered as judgments and declarations. This, itself, has changed the nature of media consumption because it's not enough to be apathetic about something. For example, I am apathetic about the Barbie movie, but for several months (and I'm sure coming soon) I couldn't escape people having an opinion about the movie, even among people who didn't see it. The quality of the movie or the reasons behind those individuals' opinions is inconsequential to me, I just don't care. Yet it felt like the world could not let me be at peace with my stance. No, Barbie was THE conversation, and YOU MUST be AWARE of THE conversation, and you MUST take part in THE conversation. Wrestling, though... that's something I'm not as exposed to. I just started to watch AEW again this summer, and I am blissfully unaware of most backstage drama. Sometimes it can be fascinating, but I am otherwise happier being ignorant of any real grudges. I'd rather everyone perceive it as a stage performance, not unlike a musical but swapping songs with fisticuffs. Anyway, time to wrap out the too long post. Great video, as always. Gives me a lot to contemplate and chew on. Enjoy your holiday break.

[@Realmidboss]

One other problem is also probably how current marketing of fiction is focusing on telling you "this is the biggest thing ever made, nothing else is worth experiencing after so you should experience this thing over and over again" that makes people react in the two opposites reactions. At least this is what I experienced with several pieces of media and people talking about it. Sometimes I do agree with a thing being great (while also trying to see if there are problems), sometimes I don't agree (while seeing stuff that I like too). In general tho I don't always try to provoke interactions by saying "OMG this is the best thing ever, if you don't see it too then you're wrong". Even in the moments I do say that, I want to be wrong because interacting with people who have a different POV on a thing to me is also interesting and hopefully civil.

[@BrezelCeviche]

The problem is not that people have become experts on media; it is that they THINK they have.

[@egekahraman8985]

idk I consume content like a vacuum cleaner and sometimes I hear that satisfying crunch when some masterpiece is going through the metophorical tube and it has been working for me thus far

[@grodon909]

Gotta say, I'm loving the anime to pro wrestling pipeline that super eyepatch wolf and Daryl both promote

[@kylespevak6781]

13:39 In my opinion since we never actually know any of these famous people or celebrities, I can't help but feel like a lot of stuff is fake. Like whenever I see somebody surprised at something a famous person has done it makes me wonder why they had any expectations of who that person was? When literally your whole life is scripted in front of screens then nobody knows you, it's oretty simple. Think about how little the closest people to you know about you

[@dbc1579]

Alright after watching the entire video, I'm gonna need a 2-hour analysis video on CM Punk. Please and thank you

[@dbc1579]

This comment has gotten an earth-shattering 4 likes. The people have spoken Daryl.

[@madisonnai]

22:30 honestly i hate when ppl try to get me to ‘defend’ my favorite show, i like it bc it makes me happy everytime i watch it and thats enough

[@MetConcerts100]

Everywhere wrestling fans go, we see those eyes. CM Punk’s eyes!

[@MegaDeox]

I dunno. I do think that just enjoying stuff is often a good thing, but it also feels like a slippery slope into consuming media passively and giving into the lowest common denominator. Yes, it makes me seem like a snob. But also, I don't want to "waste" my life consuming. I want feel, and think, and ponder for hours afterwards, and speak to people about what makes it so good.

[@wpelfeta]

I've don't really have this problem. I can usually suspend disbelief because I love stories and I want to believe and experience them. I might analyze it once I'm done, but while I'm in a game, I am role playing as if I were there with the characters and I take everything at face value. I think this is why I cry so easily when playing games/shows/anime compared to most people. But there does have to be a certain level of craftsmanship for me to be able to attain this level of suspension of disbelief. If a game is really poorly written, the illusion crumbles no matter how hard I try. I hate meta narratives though, since that takes me out of the story.

[@Bimji_Prsn]

Thanks for the video! I think I missed the poll but this is a topic I completely understand. By profession, I am a games designer, and it is my job to understand and articulate experiences to allow my teams to (re)create them. Having no off-switch myself, this is an issue I have experienced at one point, but over time, I've personally saw less of "the line" as I internalized the understandings, and learned to allow myself to trust the journeys that is put in front of me. It's like, sure, you know the risk of getting killed by a car is higher when you're a pedestrian (vs. just staying at home), but you learn to still enjoy walks in the park. It's not an "active switch" as much as it's just, knowing that experiencing what's in front of you is more important, and you can still analyze it, but not allowing any part of that analysis that doesn't "add" to the experience detract from the experience itself. Like learning to breathe without letting the idea of air-born fecal matter bother you~ (You can go clean your lungs or toilet or whatever later.) It's easier said than done, but for me, it's allowed me to enjoy movies and TV shows a lot more these days. :)

[@yellowfishstick]

Was half watching the video when the ad read comes on over sheep raider (sheep dog n wolf) soundtrack, I can't be the only person who is obsessed with that games soundtrack

[@vuinx]

One of the things that I use to help out with over-analysing media is keeping a spreadsheet of ratings that I would give after consuming said media. I read a lot of books so I have one specifically for that and you may also do this for whatever you enjoy consuming but the key thing I found that helped was giving a title two different ratings: a "critical" rating that analyses the title and finds the good and the bad in it along with an "enjoyment" rating that just ranks how much you enjoyed the title without caring about how objectively good or bad it is. I find that this helps me separate the two aspects a little more and, most importantly, if I find a flaw whilst consuming, I recognise that it's a flaw but also recognise that I'm still enjoying the title regardless. By doing this the flaw has a lower impact on whether I enjoy a title but I can still understand that there is a flaw. That's also why I have some titles that have a critical rating of 6/10 yet an enjoyment rating of 10/10 which may seem counter-intuitive at first but are completely fine to have. Hope this helps someone struggling with this :)

[@Tomaz733]

- Someone made a video about a paranoia that have been keeping you awake at night for years: 😁 - The video ends with some kind of “it is what it is”: 🥲

[@mewwww17]

Can confirm that the more you know about creative practice, the more automatically critical of creative content you become. Architecture school didn't just make me hate 99% of buildings, it expanded my knowledge of creative practice and design. So my criticism of all kinds of design has really become a pretty intense problem for my enjoyment of media. For instance, I really feel like most video media outside of KZbin-style indie content is almost meaningless to me now. It's so hard to get invested in most fictional content. Only the rare exceptions stand out, but I do think that when something is really amazing enough to break through my critical lense, I appreciate it so much more.

[@myself2noone]

Ehh. I disagree. The more I know about a subject the more forgiving I tend to be on it. Though that could be more a function of my particular interests. I like reading books of evolution and that's very much design by whatever works. Tends to be how I see media too. That natural fluctuate of memes creating something new out of old parts. It's actually really cool when you see it happening.

[@IceboyMyName]

Recently, I've started playing a game called Limbus Company, and just like you said, it broke my expectations of a "first few minutes of a gacha game" and right now, I'm so invested in the story just because of this one moment at the beginning that made me broke out of the "meh, just another gacha game" to "holy shit this is good" (seriously, go play project moon stuff, they really know how to make their world and characters interesting)

[@reitaylor5523]

I feel like I have such a hard time w this, more in a different way though - either not being able to get even a bit engaged in a narrative that strays too far from reality or, alternatively, not able to pull myself out of it at all (as w my special interest), it’s one or the other, never a mix like you’ve described. I’m autistic, and I think maybe since separating reality/fiction isn’t easy for me it complicates things? No idea, maybe some others could chime in on that.

[@018FLP]

The primary objective for me into seeing HBO's Scavengers Reign was to drink that nutritios speculative biology juice. So there i was taking notes, making correlations beetween species, analysing every creative decision and why they where so damn good. But then the drama hitted me like a truck and i totally forgot to make notes because the narrative had me hooked, and i was blasted by every plot twist and every character progression WHILE the world unreveled itself primal and cruel and creative, it was AMAZING. Thinking about science fiction, a genre that always get me kinda skeptic, this one steered me into consuming it right only by how good i though it was