The Problem with Virtuosity

Andy is a drummer, producer and educator. He has toured the world with rock legend Robert Plant and played on classic prog albums by Frost and IQ.
As a drum clinician he has played with Terry Bozzio, Kenny Aronoff, Thomas Lang, Marco Minneman and Mike Portnoy.
He also teaches drums privately and at Kidderminster College

[@jefferysimpkins366]

"Their gonna have to play through Giant Steps." I had to pause the video because I was laughing so hard! Every time someone says I have to hear a guitar player, it's exactly as you described. Then I put on Wes Montgomery or Miles. The way they approached the melody of the tune was far superior to most guys "Hot Licks." Plus they had "Hot Licks" to burn! Love this channel.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Thanks Jeffery. It's good to say this. So many musicians get depressed watching this sort of thing. Yes they have skill but truly great players inspire and Wes is one. First time I heard him it was just the first note that blew me away!

[@nightly522]

This video is absolute gold. You're the smartest guy in the room Andy. Wonderful explanation of objectives for music. Enormous clarity about the role of virtuosity. A sincere thanks to you for posting.

[@griphfunk]

I really do enjoy these type of subjects. I am no musician. I am a listener and a fan. Obsessed tbh, but I love that you can discuss these topics in a way that I, who knows nothing about theory, can grasp and enjoy. Thank you sir.

[@jpalberthoward9]

The balance between the visceral and the cerebral is vital. I'd be lost without it. The bass line to "I Saw Her Stamding There" set the thermostat when I was 4 years old. But my parents loved Shastakovich and Prokofiev, Stravinsky, and the Brandenburg concertos. They loved Nat King Cole, Hank Williams, The Texas Playboys, Ray Charles, and Sinatra. When I was about 8, I heard "Rhapsody in Blue". They had lots of Latin jazz records from Tito Puente, Xavier Cugat and Desi Arnaz, and the first time I heard Santana, I got it right away. Carlos was quoted as saying "God made the world round so everybody can have center stage." You don't have to love everything, but life's too short to hate anything.

[@matthewoconnell114]

This is one of my favorite videos that you’ve done. Virtuosity is not only an overused term, it is also an overemphasized talent - at least in terms of music quality. I’m always more impressed with talented artists who show restraint in order to create balance and elegance. It’s like watching Brando in the Godfather or listening to Miles on Kind of Blue. Always enjoy your takes, even if I don’t always agree with them. They are always well thought out and articulated.

[@ledaswan5990]

Great video Andy. I’m one of those who really appreciates this kind of content. No one else that I know of raises these type of issues. It’s extremely important because many of the problems that hold us back as musicians and life in general are psychological problems. They can really hold u back.

[@eddiepigg5333]

I agree. When I was younger, I didn’t have a problem practicing 3 to 5 hours a day but I hit a plateau and eventually lost my fire. I put my guitar down for 20 years and have tried in the last two years to pick it up again. But now it seems to be even harder this time around and it’s very discouraging. I’m 57 years old now and I really don’t know what to do. I want that fire back but it just doesn’t seem to be working. This has been very disappointing as well as depressing because besides my family and friends, music is the most important thing in my life.🙁

[@Eleutherarch]

@@eddiepigg5333 I am sorry to hear that you are having difficulty resuming your musical journey. It might sound facile or twee, but have you considered starting an entirely new musical journey? You don't have to pick up where you left off. There are different.musical genres, different bands, improvisatory approaches and more. Don't try to push or force either. Don't focus on technique either. It will come with time. Simply play without tension and, when you become aware of any tension, stop and relax before continuing. If you are looking for a radical approach, pick up a bass instead. Hell, try piano or drums if you really want a fresh canvas. You can do this. Good luck.

[@eddiepigg5333]

@@Eleutherarch I am starting to try and learn fingerpicking in search of new challenges but it is so frustrating. I’m also going to start taking lessons that encompass fingerpicking and music theory. I admit that it was hard when I lost my “hunger” for making music but I have plenty of time to practice now and my discipline is a little weak. In the end, all will be as it should and I’m good with that.

[@RobinHood5045]

Haha! Your impression at 20:12 made me laugh.

[@pjjmsn]

I would say that in the case of Mclaughlin and Coltrane that playing fast was another tool in their toolkit or color on their palette which they would use to express a specific type of deep emotion that was different than what they could express when playing slow. The emotion was their primary goal and the virtuostic display whas what got them there. Expressing extraordinary spiritual emotions requires extraordinary playing.

[@diegob8319]

I would agree 99%, with the only caveat being that sometimes the most simple can also be the most extraordinary, or that playing slow doesn't always mean less complex. Some of the hardest things to do in an orchestra setting is count a slow movement or find the right way to play a simple passage

[@pjjmsn]

@@diegob8319 I totally agree. Coltrane on his ballads demonstrated his mastery of that as well. It is all about the deep emotion that is generated through the magic of music. Both slow and fast playing can do it and I love guys who mix both. My favorite solo piano player, Paul Bley, has a huge vocabulary and plays blazingly fast as well as milks single notes for all they are worth, and comunes with the listener describing a powerful, delicate, fascinating and poignant inner journey. I connect with him deeply,

[@gregcable3250]

Partly agree, but for some speedsters (not the ones you indicate) my human ears can't hear the individual notes and what they are supposed to do--very impressive technically--but kind of sounds like a lawnmower--ra da da da da da da da da......!

[@marcsullivan7987]

@@diegob8319 in my experience, musicians know that playing slowly is actually difficult. One reason is that feeling the beat subdivision become WAY more nuanced, making having a good feel/groove a lot harder

[@dalecarothers5641]

I like this type of video quite a bit. I'd be happy to listen to more.

[@JackJenningsGuitarist]

Andy I can hardly express to you how impressed I am with this video. I've been watching a lot of them and I feel like you are really getting warmed up now. The level of enquiry and observation about music is a joy to hear. I love how you talked about the individual direction people can go in and how that relates to virtuosity. Also the emphasis on having freedom within a group being such a powerful concept in Jazz. I would really love to have do an interview/discussion with you to explore all these kinds of questions. Best regards Jack

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Hi Jack...yes I decided to turn up the heat on this video. My videos are completely unplanned and I have no idea where I'm going to go with them. I have lectured for years though and seen what many music students have been struggling so I know this is powerful stuff. I'm up for an interview, sounds interesting :)

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I have a video on Jazz coming out on Thursday which is like a companion to this one. It covers some of the same ideas but looks at the development of jazz as a genre from a slightly different angle. You may like it

[@JackJenningsGuitarist]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer it makes sense that you've done lots of lecturing. It explains part of the reason videos are so watchable.

[@JackJenningsGuitarist]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer yes I will definitely take a look at that one sounds very interesting

[@JackJenningsGuitarist]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I'll be in touch about doing an interview. Really glad you're up for the idea

[@gregcable3250]

I saw an interview with Eric Clapton just a few years back and he was asked about his thoughts on current music including hip hop, etc. He paused for just a second, waved his hands and said "It's all good. It's all good.". He went on to briefly add that he has preferences in what he listens to that is not at all connected to a ranking or judging of the things he does not listen to as much or at all. I understood that.

[@bentleycharles779]

Nice.

[@RobHinkforth]

From the heart I say thank you. I have been watching these philosophy and music vids, I find them to be most encouraging. As a side note the term virtue shares the same root as virtuosity. The opposite of virtue is vice. The word vicious is based on that. My two cents here is that a virtuoso embodies a set of virtues on what is truly good about their art. They’re seasoned, well skilled while maintaining a deep connection with a transcendent aspect that artist and audience collectively feel. Or perhaps this is just rubbish but it’s only my two cents. Be well and please keep these videos coming. They resonate with me.

[@mrinalkundu1521]

Yep. Miles, Monk, Mitch, Elvin, Carlos, Keith, Robbie, Pete anytime, Subjective

[@JazzDuets]

I love these videos

[@LR-oo8hq]

This is great mate thank you for this, I wish everyone that loves music would listen to what you said, so grateful for your loving advice, beautiful 👍🙏🌈❤️☺️

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Thanks for listening

[@CharlesAustin]

This is a great music/ meaning lesson .. one of the best !!

[@shipsahoy1793]

Great stuff Andy, love your channel. 👍You bring up a lot of good points that patently evade the mainstream😵‍💫consciousness. 👨🏻

[@jackg5893]

Hey Andy, great job on the visionary video, I really enjoyed it! May I offer an honourable mention: Radiohead. Thom York and Johnny Greenwood are incredible visionaries from the 90’s and into the new millennium. And as you have mentioned on many occasions that Radiohead is Prog. When you look at their history they start out with a mediocre AM song, but massive hit in 1993 “Creep”. Then we hear “Paranoid Android” (1997) from OK Computer which is an absolute prog classic. Then we are treated to “National Anthem” in 2000 from the amazing album “Kid A” where the instrumental section features an incredible Ornette Colman like wind solos, that crescendos to the end of the piece. In 2003 “Hail the Thief” pushes musical envelopes even further, experimenting with found sounds, odd meters and new unconventional forms. I believe that Thom York and Johnny Greenwood are worthy of honourable visionary mention. Keep up the great work! Jack G from Canada

[@stewarttiley9683]

Thank you soooo much for this "pep" talk Andy! I'm your age and grew up with NWOBHM, started with piano then moved to guitar. I got fairly good and recorded three albums in an American Metal band. Now I'm learning bass which is proving difficult, but I'm determined to get proficient at it (wish I'd picked up bass in the first place!). My passion is fusion, but I realize it's a pipe dream! I love virtuosity-MO and WR are my favorite bands. But I also love Bauhaus, Joy Division, The Damned, Ramones and Sonic Youth. Their virtuosity was in their compositions and I feel that the bands who truly changed rock music (thru the cyclical process of Jazz nurturing rock and then rock influencing Jazz) were The Beatles, Sabbath, The Ramones, Joy Division and Sonic Youth. You can look back and see the milestones these bands created. None were virtuosos, but their ideas and fearlessness in expressing them makes them timeless in their impact. I'm probably wrong by the way!

[@terryparham3913]

Andy. Have watched a number of your videos, and it’s been hit or miss at times. This one was a hit, as I had recently raised the question of virtuosity as something we should strive for (or not). The question was posed in a jazz workshop setting, and prompted some interesting responses not that different from your points made in this video. Based on the fact that your videos or topics are in the realm on my jazz fusion and general music interests…and all you have to mention is Chick Corea…I’m hooked! I was a drummer from childhood (father was a local amateur drummer and drum teacher) and switched to jazz piano late in life. Even as a mid level at best piano hack, have led and accompanied several jazz bands and now have strong composition interests with jazz fusion or what I consider jazz fusion to be for my tastes. Have even recorded a couple of albums with gleeful intent to enjoy performing and making music at my pace and non-virtuoso skill level. The journey continues. Consider me a new subscriber. Thanks

[@jeffsimard8846]

My post-secondary music education experience exactly proves what Andy is saying. First, all the guitar players in my class would often cut-up Angus Young because he wasn’t Wes Montgomery Second, I was always an expressive blues player…. But once I started learning jazz I could play blues anymore. It took years for me to get that back again

[@pjjmsn]

I similar thing happened to me. I think blues is a good example of something that might not appear to be a virtuostic musical genre, because it is all about the emotions, via phrasing, timing, bending, etc, instead of the speed. And it is easy to lose that if you don't practice it. And obviously the greats like SRV are virtuosos.

[@marshallwise8845]

I really found wisdom and comfort in this video

[@timdrumheller]

Great Video! The balance of Art and Craft.

[@steffenbrix]

Perfect video ❤ ....and btw....Dennis Chambers...super soulful ❤

[@kerrybarnes7289]

thank you for this

[@stefanredin854]

Very well spoken Andy! 👍👊

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Thank you kindly

[@ganazby]

Thanks for this wise video, Andy. I’ve nothing to add to what you’ve expressed so well. More people need to hear this message. Music should be about bringing people together, rather than the blind worship of technical proficiency (which of course can be thrilling in the right context, sez a lifelong Mahavishnu fan).

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Well said!

[@Bass599]

I've been really demotivated for the past year and half. I blamed it on Covid but it's because I am stuck in phase 2. I have really enjoyed this video Andy, Rustic Chat part 2.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Cheers Will...mastery is the ability to not be intimidated or demotivated by other brilliant players. Ask yourself what all these amazing players on here and IG are doing wrong and what the rich and famous bass players are doing right. And the answer is the solution to that demotivation.

[@jeremyarbitaljacoby7155]

Hello All Music Fans! Thank you Andy for these inspiring topics! If you love music I would imagine “you” have experienced/asked yourself/had many a late night discussion about many of these topics! While I can agree with many “general” contentions of Andy’s opinions ( and I reiterate-how fantastic it is to hear them!) I feel that many topics should be further nuanced and explored more deeply. For example ( my humble opinions): • A better dive into the “history” of music. As mentioned many times by Andy ( and of course hundreds of other books, lectures etc.) the music we love has a deep rich connection to music as part of everyday life and spiritual connections. African, Afro/Cuban and other great cultures that emanated from the African continent are the “roots” of music. The interconnection of society and music is so interwoven. Given the context of “the “Virtuosity” discussion, the “essence of joy and connection gets lost on most listeners and players. Virtuosic playing can be blissful! If you love to play thousands of notes, “sheets of sound,” do it! But, know fewer people will appreciate it en masse. I will be listening! It seems to be pretty straightforward-if you want to perform and make more money from it, you play music that most people are “conditioned” ( I say this without acrimony! ) “to hear and dance to!” That is a “good thing!” Enjoy-be together as people! Is there the possibility of melding the two-yes! As I am sure we can site many an example. Is it the philosophical discussion of: “Absolute and Programmed” music? Or, simply is it all economically driven by markets? Whatever it is-We as players and fans of more “musically intricate” music, I hope we will continue to support anyone trying to expand whatever the horizons are!! I greatly appreciate what Andy was pointing/alluding to-finding the joy and sheer fun of music! As Andy suggested-listen back to the music that first grabbed your soul! Get inspired! Support each other and if you want-choose positivity!

[@althomson8782]

Loved that. It's what I've felt and come to appreciate more and more but when articulated so we'll it gives me confidence that I'm not using that notion to hide my not fully virtuosic playing. If you play in the jazz realm that's a real curse. Be happy if something true and from yourself is being produced.

[@geoffccrow2333]

This feels a bit personal. I used to imagine what if i met john mac. bumped into him in the street what would i say to him? I'd say john thank you for everything you have "spoken" to me with your guitar over the years.

[@yoseanantoniotorres8597]

This is so true. I like a lot of difficult or virtuosic stuff but the music that really impressed me and still do are bands that I start listening like H.I.M. and Linkin Park (Hybrid Theory and Meteora). Simple songs but memorable, they are telling a story and everyone can play the songs and enjoy them.

[@timhewtson6212]

A great exposition! The way I see it, there are songwriters and virtuoso musicians, and rarely do they meet except at the end in a performance. We have this image of a songwriter working out a song on a fretboard or a keyboard. No, very rarely. A songwriter hears a song in their head and then tries to capture it as best they can. Songwriters rarely have virtuoso skills. They are the classic rhythm guitarists or the ambient keyboard players. They are not trying to be spectacular instrumentalists, usually. They are trying to capture the song in their heads. But yes, as time goes on, they become better instrumentalists. Instrumentalists, on the other hand, don't really have any songs in their heads. What they have are skills on their instruments. And what do you do if your only path is to be an instrumentalist? You try to be the best instrumentalist around - faster, a unique sound, a bunch of tricks. These two pieces should work together - you have the songwriter, who has the tune but can barely play it; and you have the instrumentalist, who can definitely play it, but doesn't have a song in their head for love or money. And then you have those who have both. Classically, Bach, Liszt and Mozart. In the rock world, Elton John and Freddy Mercury. But these are unicorns; rarely seen out there in the world. So the songwriter remains true to the song in their head and asks that the instrumental performers "play to the song." And the instrumentalists write lacklustre music that showcases their instrumental skills or try to build a certain amount of instrumental prowess into the tunes the songwriters come up with. The problem is that it is the songwriters who get rewarded with all the royalties. A great instrumentalist or arranger makes a huge difference to the overall effect of a song, but doesn't get any royalties. We need to recognize that we need both the songwriter and the individual instrumentalist. They should work in harmony, and benefit equally financially. I think this is what you were arguing and you are so right.

[@cbolt4492]

Rick Beato is someone else I struggle to watch, lot's of others like him but he gets on my wick a little bit. Bizarrely, he's never heard of me so it's win win

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

He is a big inspiration for my channel...he is the gold standard of music KZbinrs

[@cbolt4492]

I'll give him another try. Jens Larsen for jazz guitar along with Mikko Hilden are by far the best as far as education is concerned. They can play too 😎

[@oolongoolong789]

Andy, thanks for a stimulating video. I agree with most of what you say, essentially that virtuosity should be there to serve the music and not as an end in itself. I have to say the often flashy keyboard playing of Chick Corea leaves me cold, but Jimmy Smith, Jack McDuff and Jimmy McGriff, though far less technically gifted than Corea, to my ears play with more emotional grit and poignancy. However, I think it's a mistake to claim that in classical music "the composer is king". Well, yes, up to a point. But the interpreter, be they conductor, soloist, ensemble or orchestra, has the final say. Performances of a particular symphony will often significantly vary according to the sensibility of the conductor and the technical abilities of the orchestra. Interpretation is everything.

[@seabud6408]

Great content/analysis. Makes sense of a lot of dense … stuff. I’ve come to believe that this issue and critics attitudes are why Deep Purple (Paice/Blackmore/Lord in particular) fell down the crack between Sabbath and Zepp’ … too musical .. “”An instrumental band with vocal accompaniment” as Ian Gillan put it. 😀

[@mikewilcox5284]

Andy listen to aussie Brett Garside's guitar virtuosity on 'Avoid the Void' or on John Fahrnam's cover of Zeplins' 'Black Dog'

[@janosmarothy5409]

22:55 "I find that dubious" -- New viewer, but two years later, I'd be interested to hear that thought developed. It's quite a thing to flatly assert and then walk away from. I think we divert our attention from a lot interesting musicological and aesthetic and historical avenues worth exploring when we situate our attitudes about virtuosity in our distant evolutionary past. We think about technical mastery and aesthetic value in so many ways within cultures and between them all across history in ways that should raise questions about a broad claim like that. I have my own problems with some of Neely's approach/conclusions on these topics, but I think it's clear that we need that historically-minded and critical examination of how our ideas about aesthetic judgement emerge and evolve.

[@guillaumechabason3165]

Your analysis is virtuosity in the good way Like Franz Liszt's Mephisto waltz for piano A lot of ideas and emotion with it Brilliant !

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Thanks Guillaume...I thought it needed to be said in the current climate

[@CVGuitar]

22:44 lol -- I agree with you a million percent Andy

[@edgardoplasencia511]

" Virtuosity gives you more freedom to create " said a great guitar player whose name I don't want to remember.....

[@edgardoplasencia511]

Basic but ESSENTIAL level.

[@gordonwaite4571]

Damn you’re good.

[@gregcable3250]

I will say that using what sells the most or is the most popular as an indication of "the best" is simply what is called in logic the ad populum fallacy--which means that there is no logical connection between how many people like, believe, have an opinion or care about, etc. something/anything and it's instrinsic value/worth, its quality, truth, etc. In music/art popularity is, naturally, a thing of interest, but really nothing much more. Your thoughts are welcome!

[@geoffccrow2333]

WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU KNOW NOTHING? IMPROVISE. WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU KNOW TOO MUCH? IMPROVISE (HAL RUSSELL)

[@justlookingaround9834]

Have you heard Joe Browns story being a session musician with Jonny Cash, it’s worth finding.

[@aaronocelot]

Whether it's a single singer/songwriter or a classical orchestra playing a composers piece, the performance is in service to the music. Virtuosity is about a performer executing a piece well, and a composer would appreciate their abilities to interpret their song and play it. If ones goal as a songwriter is to speak to 3 people or 3 million, one may construct accordingly, If ones goal as a musician is to compete and appeal to other musicians and try to impress them, have at it. If ones goal as a musician is to always feel inspired, one may be forced to continually evolve as a result. This may APPEAR as one being an elitist rarified-air endangered species but one is not being guided by external appearances, but by ones passion.

[@aaronocelot]

what I meant to say was "it's about the music/ the song". sophisticated intelligent contemporary-feeling music is hard to both define and find

[@mattf9076]

I really don't have much to add to this video because you basically summarized my thoughts and added even more. The only quote I really have is one by Keith Jarrett in which he said "music should be about life". I think this applies to Jacob Collier, because his approach as you said in the video is through the exploitation of music theory. The NY Times mentioned JD Beck and Gomi having the best version of Giant Steps since Coltrane. Are they that desperate for views? Do they have a recency "bias"(i.e bias implies that they know something about music, I couldn't think of another word)? I don't know, but what I do know is we are in deep shit if influential media promotes that shit as high level jazz. I don't doubt their skill, but everything they play including their version of Giant Steps sounds like a warm-up session to me. I will give them another chance once they record an album, because an album to me means "we mean business and this is who we are". I guess that is why I don't watch KZbin vids anymore about licks, short jam sessions, etc because it is just a technical spectacle aka, Shit. This isn't a generational bias either, take Taku Yabuki's "Modern World Symphony No.3" as an example, which was released just last year, tons of virtuosity, but more importantly tons of musicianship.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Yes...I'm not knocking JD Beck or Domi. The are players with a lot of skill and some originality. But you can tell they think the worth of the music is in their skill. So they play Giant Steps because they think it's hard. But they miss the point of Giant Steps. Coltrane believed he was opening up an almost mystical world. He was representing the 'Law of Three' with that triangulation of three keys. he was trying to bust the basic structure that underpins jazz improvisation open. On Interstellar Space you can hear is trying to bust open the music even more and he is utilising the same harmonic devices to do that. He had a vision and it was metaphysical. If you search for Kenny Garrett playing Giant Steps you see a musician who has gone beyond and actually bust that tune wide open and he achieves a freedom you seldom hear in music where he can do whatever he wants. That is the best version since Coltrane. But the NY Times don't really get any of this, and neither do I suspect do Domi or JD Beck. But they are young and they are on the journey so who knows.

[@ganazby]

Great points.

[@antoinepaine8097]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer so true!!!! Totally agree with the points in the video! Definitely applies with MO, RTF and TW lifetime, weather report, 11th house among others :) remarkable virtuosity with unparalleled emotion and musicality! 😍

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@@antoinepaine8097 I think it was the way the industry worked and the culture that existed back then.

[@arnaudb.7669]

The Taku Yabuki album is a progfusion masterpiece.What an album!!!!

[@diegob8319]

while i do think it would be a mistake to adopt a dogged 'populist' stance against the dogged elitism/perfectionism/pseudo-meritocratic judgy-ness of virtuosi and their fanboys, there is a lot of truth to what's being said here, and as a music fan and music student, i've definitely felt this cultish fascination with skill cast a really ugly shadow over what we do. it's really tiresome, and, with rare exceptions, it tends to make for tiresome music. insisting on the idea that 'complexity/skill/opacity/difficulty' is necessarily better is every bit as stupid as insisting on the idea that 'simpler/more accessible is necessarily better' that being said, i can think of countless examples of quote un quote 'simple', 'more accessible,' 'popular' music that are infinitely more profound, provocative, moving, and complex (musically, emotionally, socially, or even politically) than what often passes for 'the most skilled musicianship'. i'm sorry, but i'll take jimi hendrix and dave gilmour over polyphia and steve vai any day. and no, jimi and gilmour were not 'less virtuosic' or 'innovative' than the other two just because they rarely broke from the pentatonic minor. heck, i'll take one Robert Johnson or Keith Richards riff over polyphia and steve vai. i'll even take ABBA, and I've hated ABBA most of my life (though a lot of that hate probably speaks to my own elitism over the years) goes without saying that i'll take aretha franklin and janis joplin and johnny cash over most classically trained opera singers. that being said, i'll take bach and stravinsky and mingus and joe pass and pavaroti over marroon 5 and bieber anyday.... so.... so i guess, screw BOTH the snooty elite with its expensive conservatories AND the pop music industry made to make its rich, elitist owners even richer?

[@lomoholga]

I remember watching an Adam Neely video where he was doing ear training drills with Ben Levit I was shocked at how poorly (relatively speaking-no pun intended) he did. I was expecting him to have these golden ears due to his intensely theoretical videos- but nope. He performed at an intermediate level This isn’t to bad mouth him but rather just reinforces some vague concept I can’t quite put into words about these excessive theory focused individuals

[@pjjmsn]

Those videos are interesting, but they often seem to boil music down to something approaching mathematics. It seems like the modern culture likes to strip art of its spiritual meaning.

[@aaronocelot]

but around 25:00 when you speak about how Jazz shows how you can be an individual while still being in harmony with a group = that's seriously culturally important. I wonder if there's any serious study of group improvised music, or jams. It's arguably an origin scenario

[@shipsahoy1793]

“What makes this song great?!” It’s really just because the way it sounds is highly admired.. I have to laugh when “someone” says, “oh, it was genius to put that modulation at that point the the melody” or “wasn’t hearing that tri-tone sub great there,” or that lick over that succession of secondary dominants is to die for..I can go on and on, but it’s ridiculous. An attempt at good click bait titles probably preface this lol

[@Ferrari85241]

Music is very subjective of course.

[@Wingman52]

I don't think there is a problem with virtuosity so much as there is a difference between it and artistry. Classical musicians are frequently virtuosos of there chosen instrument, that is they can play anything put before them in the form of sheet music. Artistry is a different thing. It is concerned with emotions, making people feel something through a message or an interesting and unique chord sequence or melody. I think it is rare that viruosos (viruosi?) write incredible songs because the skill required to write an amazing song, something like Every Breath You Take by Sting, and the skill required to play like Matteo Mancuso are totally different things. Mancuso is an incredible guitarist but IMHO I doubt he will ever write an incredible song.

[@carlharvey6461]

Interesting video, Andy. I daresay that, while he may not be able to sight read as quickly as a classical musician, I'd put McLaughlin's fretboard dexterity up against a classical virtuoso. Then again...such a remark represents precisely what you're saying a high level of musicianship is NOT about (kind of the point of the video)!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

McLaughlin worked as a session musician early on because of his sight reading skills.

[@jasonstarkie2775]

Tory Slusher

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I have never voted Tory...ever

[@jasonstarkie2775]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer sorry, did that come across as a slander? Tory Slusher is a crazy ass guitarist. Personally I’ve never voted republican.

[@tonyrapa-tonyrapa]

I don't believe there is a problem with virtuosity. The problem firmly lies with the listeners - and of course, as always, music is a personal thing.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I have argued elsewhere that music is not entirely a personal thing (the post modernists are wrong IMO) Our biology determines that there must be some objective aesthetic attributes concerning music. And I'm not sure how a musician simply showing off is a problem that lies with the listener.

[@tonyrapa-tonyrapa]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer So there you go! Some people like/want that kind of show-off virtuosity. It's a matter of taste. It's certainly not the fault of the player if he/she wants to show-off. Why can't they show off? But someone who doesn't like that kind of thing will find fault with it... but why? Because it's not to their taste. hence, the problem lies with the listener. It's like all of us prog/fusion/jazz guys moaning about pop music: it's boring, it's simple, it's.... actually, it's our problem if we can't appreciate pop music, because many others do. And this reasoning can apply to any number of musical facets, not just virtuosity.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@@tonyrapa-tonyrapa I'm afraid I only partially agree. If there are universal aspects to music then it logically follows that it can't all be subjective. This is really what this video tries to get deeply into, which parts are universal and which aren't. But it's pretty clear to me that it cannot all be subjective. And then there is the question if showing off is a virtue?

[@davestevens4193]

Virtuosity vs Wanking

[@sfmag1]

I can't really see why someone would want to be a "virtuoso", unless it's for their identity/ego issues. I can't do "chops" anyway,I'm too ham handed.

[@flazjsg]

That's like saying, "why would any basketball player want to be able to play like MJ or Kobe? People want to see how far they can take their skill and talent.

[@sfmag1]

I would say see how far you can take your humanity and Virtue(as in behavior/actions).