The Pursuit Of 1x Efficiency: Can 1x Groupsets Be As Good As 2x?

[@thecappy]

I picked up a bike with the new 2x grx groupset 48-31t. After I put an 11-40 cassette on, I think I have just about it all covered.

[@MountainRoadRide]

That sounds like a super capable setup. Just curious...which rear derailleur are you running on that setup?

[@thecappy]

@@MountainRoadRide the stock grx 2x rear derailleur. I think it's the 815.

[@oliverracz2686]

Did you have to use a road link or some kind of a hanger extension? I think that derailleur is not meant to be used on a 40T sprocket, but if you can get it to work, more power to you. I am also thinking about doing the same.

[@jaspreetsidhu5708]

@@oliverracz2686 It can be run with a 40 tooth, I'm in the same boat as well, shifting is still really good.

[@jkzv1]

I think its doable as long s its 11-40. Saw vids where they just adjust the b-screw of the 812 rd. But to be sure and if you want to run a 11-42 cassette, i think a roadlink dm would be best option.

[@Andyange]

I got my first 1x gravel bike and I can’t believe how good it is. 40t chainring and 11-40t cassette.

[@clintjones9848]

I've never dropped a chain since I started using the 1x system in about 2016 while using the clutch rear derailleur and x sync chain ring.

[@planetdog1641]

It seems the bike industry doesn't want to give choice anymore. First, it was rim brakes on road bikes, now it is 1x on all high end mountain, gravel and fitness bikes. I want to go fast when I need it, and be able to climb the steep hills when I need it.

[@fender1000100]

You can with a 1by system.

[@kaazedd]

@@fender1000100sure you can, but 2x is still more diverse

[@xosece]

the Canyon Roadlite 6 (5 is also good) is the best bike I've ever seen in that sense

[@meibing4912]

Agree on all three - and that chain angle is the worst. An important reason for me to wax my chains. Lose some on angle rub - win some on waxing - and on top the wax goes where its really needed the most.

[@Rich28448]

The simplicity of a 1x is negated when using 2x SRAM AXS/ Shimano Di2 electronic group sets as they both have settings that automatically change the chainring when you change up/ down grears. The other issue that few people seem to talk about is the reduced 1x gear range compared with 2x setup -people just mention gear jump issues. However, the gear jump issues could be somewhat negated by choosing narrower range -for example matching or lowering the lowest gears available in 2x and sacrificing the upper range. A look at gear calculator is recommended to check what speed/ cadence you want to ride at when choosing appropriate gears.

[@GFClocked]

I disagree with every single 'negative', and I feel 1x is by far superior in every single way, other than cadence, but you can quickly adapt to cadence. Just go ask your local mountain biker. It's nearly impossible to drop the chain from 1x due to narrow-wide chainring and modern clutches. In fact, I don't think I've ever had a chain drop on 1x ever. Cross chaining is also not an issue, I've ridden thousands of km on 1x and it's designed for this, and is working perfectly fine. You are not running smallest or biggest cogs very often either. Tests have been done and there's almost no issue with "lost watts" due to 1x either, it's imperceivable. The cassettes moment mass of inertia is close to the axis, if you quickly look at the kinetic rotational formula you'll realize bigger cassette won't make that much of a difference. I'm very sensitive to noise, but I've never been bothered by any of the inherent 1x "noise issues" you seem to describe. Maybe if you spin it on a stand I guess there might be, but on the trail I've never even heard any. You ride most of the time on the middle of the cassette anyway, where there's least cross chaining, at least if you spec your chainring size correctly. I'd argue there's much more noise with 2x due to the inherent design of front derailleur. 1x It's so simple, so easy, so clean. I love it.

[@markroberts6926]

1x is inferior for bicycle shops who want to sell more parts, lol

[@justdude8115]

I tried 1x setup, tried to make it cheaper so went with 11-42 11speed cassette. Just not enough range and bigger cassettes have bigger gaps which isn't a good thing for me. So I switched back to 2x10

[@Hornet135]

@@justdude8115 You do it wrong and then complain and say it sucks.

[@DeepsGnome]

I have a 1x and its perfect for me, because i love the simplicity, but like all things, it depends on your use case and riding style, and there are definitely cases where 2x would be superior for many riders. I know of test done where 2x is actually more effective, and better at decreasing chain wear, and it can't be denied that 2x has more range. 1x works for me, but not everybody, and it should be a option for riders to go 2x.

[@thebrunoserge]

@@Hornet135 That's basically EVERYONE complaining about 1x to this day. "I tried a wrong ratio cassette and didn't like the range WAAAAAHHH 1x SUCKS" lol it's so silly. Also the people claiming they "can't find the right cadence due to bigger gaps" remind me of audiophiles claiming they notice the difference between $50 and $1000 cables. They don't notice it, no one does, but that won't stop them from crying and complaining

[@danstenis660]

Most people have different bikes for different terrains. I prefer having just one bike for all terrains. It won't be the fast bike for any terrain, but it would be faster than a mountain bike on paved road or a road bike on the mountain trail. Thus, this all terrain bike would be a gravel bike with at 2 or 3 chain rings and an 11 or 12 or higher cog cassette, the wider the gear range, the better. Other features would be plus wide tires and drop bars. I am not trying to race anyone or win any speed medals. I just want one bike that can do it all well, not the best, just second to the best. I wish manufacturers would make this bicycle. I would think that this bicycle can be built today. So if anyone can make a build video of this bike, please do so.

[@MountainRoadRide]

Have you seen Niner’s MCR 9 (bit.ly/3goL79j) before? I think this might be what you are looking for. Suspension, front and rear, will be great for some MTB’ing, but it still classifies as a gravel bike making it ideal for all other surfaces. Plenty of clearance for wider tires plus they do make it with a 2x set-up.

[@danstenis660]

@@MountainRoadRide That Niner bike doesn't have enough low end gear for steep mountain climbing on a loaded bicycle for adventure touring. It does however, have good high end speed though.

[@gregstinson5725]

Try a larger front ring (46t). Spend less time in the smallest 2 cogs unless on a downhill and you spend more time in the midrange gears.

[@TheBassallyear100]

try a SRAM X01 12-speed MTB chain on that 11-speed cassette. I've had good luck with 12-speed chains quieting down 11-speed 1x setups due to their slightly more narrow outer plates and better ability to handle the extreme ends of cross chaining.

[@fender1000100]

I have a Tern Verge X18. When I got it. It had a 2 by 9 set up. A large chainring of 53 and a small chainring of 39. With a Shimano capreo 9--26 hub and cassette on the back. I got rid of the front derailer because it was annoying. And got a Wolf Tooth 46 tooth front chainring. Dead in the middle of 39 and 53. I turned it into an X9 And I've never had a dropped chain. I have 93 gear inches on the 9--46. And 32 gear inches on the 26--46. And that gets me up any hill with 20 inch 406 wheels. And I can break 25mph on the flat with the highest gear. So I'm a happy man.. What you have to realize is you are going to do most of your riding in the middle gears 4--6 anyhow. And you will normally only use gears 1--3 on steep hills. And gears 7--9 on decents. When you want to push for 30mph plus without spinning out. So it's all good..

[@rsrnsrwds]

I agree, the actual scientific data points to a 2X system to be significantly more efficient with power, provide a greater overall gear range, will have smaller step ratios between gears, and will have slower wear rates of more expensive components due to less extreme chain angles. But it comes down to personal preference. Maybe giving up a little weight of a chainring and derailleur, having larger steps between cogs, and the nearly diminimus aero gain is worth it some people. But not me. Now, if there is an affordable and effective interval hub solution I might think differently about it.

[@paths2go]

2x is far superior for efficiency and for having all fields covered

[@GOmotorsports]

I got rid of my Praxis wave tech chainring and moved to the proven reliable narrow wide chainring. I was dropping the chain all the time with the praxis, also it was quite noisy. I bought a Wolftooth, but others are available, and have zero dropped chains. I do not run a guide and I ride a lot of single track. Something to try.

[@MountainRoadRide]

Excellent and very timely advice. I was researching some Wolftooth chainring options just yesterday. Thank you!

[@GOmotorsports]

As a test, remove the chain guide and see if there are any drops. I was astounded by how well narrow wide retained the chain over wave tech. That praxis chainring was really ruining my rides. Also if noise represents friction then be ready for the efficiency gains as moving to NW has really quieted down the drivetrain on my bike. I can’t prove it’s more efficient but I like to believe it is. Not sure why praxis went with offset teeth instead of NW, maybe patents. Garbaruk also make a NW for these cranks.

[@MountainRoadRide]

Your input on this topic is super valuable. I really appreciate all the info. I've been diving into the details. A few questions...So the Praxis direct mount cranks use the same bolt pattern as SRAM cranks, right? Also what offset did you go for?

[@MountainRoadRide]

MASSIVE thank you for your input with these comments. I ordered the Wolftooth chainring and got it fitted today. I've only tested it on the work stand so far, but there is a huge improvement to the way the drive train sounds and performs. I'm astounded! Praxis will never see me again. I think I need to do a follow-up on this post now.

[@GOmotorsports]

I have about 1000 miles on the Wolftooth now and zero chain drops. With the Praxis I had 6 chain drops on one ride. Pretty amazing how well narrow wide works. Next I need to sort out this Praxis BB as I keep getting contamination in the BB sealing plates that creates noise. Keep up the great work on the channel.

[@jackbecker4866]

Ekar might be the doorway to making 1X standard, considering how campy designed the cassette to have 1t jumps between the 6 smallest cogs

[@jackbecker4866]

And w the smaller 9t ring I think you can make a compelling argument that 1X can be effective for road as well (beyond just time trials)

[@MountainRoadRide]

My one concern is the durability of the 9T & 10T cogs. It definitely hits the sweet spot for gear range, but if I see how easily I wear out my 11T cog on the Shimano cassette, then I wonder how long the 9T will hold up. Any experience with this?

[@jackbecker4866]

@@MountainRoadRide can’t say I have any experience in my own riding, and I don’t see a lot of campy come through the shop I work at as it’s just not very common here.

[@chrissammels5444]

No road rider ever devised a 1x for themselves. (Time trialists excepted). This is industry led. If it was so good, there would be no debate. Simplicity is very desirable, but the trade off is too great for varied road riding. We got ultra close ratios with ever more sprockets, and they then negate this evolutionary improvement by omitting a chainring. Maybe the future will be 1x, but with the new two speed hub, (subject to weight distribution issues, though). If in doubt, stick to 2x. Let the industry know that you’re not convinced.

[@SjaakSchulteis]

True, the chain might fall from the chainring, but in my experience the only times that it happened to me was when I changed the front gear at the wrong moment and it was pulled off. Never ever it happened while NOT changing gear. So I trust that a single front chainring will be ok. Until a few days ago I never heard of it and I immediately thought of all those objections. But after several videos I thought it was not bad and I ordered a new gravel bike with a single front chainring. If it will happen I will add a chain-keeper or however you call it.

[@MountainRoadRide]

Since making this video I’ve learned how big the difference is between chainring brands when it comes to chain retention. I switched over to a Wolf Tooth chainring with their Drop-Stop design and it has made a huge difference to how well the chain stays in place. I’ve even taken the chain-keeper off and have had no issues with a dropped chain. Something to look at if you do have issues in the future.

[@caribooskidoo3997]

1x? I'm building up a 4x!

[@shivamhazarika9541]

Is 2x10 better than 1x10 for steep climb , road , trails ?

[@desertviews]

Good video. I liked the front retainer. Noticed you had a 42 tooth front ring. Most mtbs I've seen only offer a 30 or 32 tooth front ring and say max ring size is 34 which really limits range in higher gears. Did your bike come with the 42 tooth or did you add that.?

[@MountainRoadRide]

Thanks! Yes the 42T ring came with my gravel bike. I swap it with a 36T ring when I know that the terrain will contain longer/more extreme climbs.

[@joules531]

When evaluating the pros and cons of a 1x set-up, you must always factor in the efficiency losses associated with smaller sprockets. 52x14 is considerably more efficient than 38x11, for instance. So much so, that you'd feel it when out on a ride, if you were able to hop from one bike to another. If you add in the inherent extra friction associated with 1x systems, typically of around 3 watts, when using a 1x set-up, then the combined losses may be considerable; and certainly enough to make the 1x bike feel sluggish.

[@MountainRoadRide]

I’m with you on this point. I mentioned in the video that World Tour TT Pros and Ironman Pros also use 1x, but what I didn’t cover is that they mostly use this on courses where they only use about 5 or 6 gears (in the middle portion of their cassettes) and this is run in combination with a massive front chainring.

[@Hornet135]

Let me know when you can feel 3 watts.

[@joules531]

@@Hornet135 the difference is around 3 watts in a perfectly clean system. But in real world conditions, the difference could be considerably more.

[@Hail2DRedskins]

First time to have a 1X with my Crockett 5 which I have had for only a month. I was running out of gear for top speed, as I am more of a masher. That was a negative I saw on 1X compared to my road bike. I put absolute black oval 44t over the old round 40t sram original. A bit faster on hard gear (by 2-3 mph avg on flats) and easier on the knees. Maybe oval chain rings will be the wave of the future on 1X even 2X?

[@MountainRoadRide]

I’m more of a spinner with my preferred range being around 95 to 105rpm, so my problem lies much more in the lighter than the harder gears. The oval is something I still want to test out in the future. I’ve just ordered a new chainring to test out how a smaller chainring impacts the efficiency, so the oval will only be a future endeavor.

[@Hail2DRedskins]

@@MountainRoadRide Over the weekend my friend "taught" me how to do the "spinner" technique as he thinks that I will blow out my knee by the second year of my cycling (Oct of next year). I don't have sensor tools to see how fast or efficient I'm pedaling as I didn't think I would be this serious about cycling a year ago. But I may have to try to be a spinner like you just so I can prolong my already bad knees (I used to be a soldier). One thing I don't like from trying to be a spinner is that, because I don't feel the tension, I feel like I am just hamster wheeling when I am not at the hardest gear. I wonder if maybe someday, you can make a video enlighting noobs like me how you usually pedal over a long distance. I'm sure I can find something from GCN. But maybe someone who is local and "normal" average joe can show us noobs how a non Tour de France racing enthusiast goes about with his work out. 😂 Thanks again!

[@All4Grogg]

​@@Hail2DRedskins optimal cadence varies from rider to rider, outside of a performance lab the best way is to; pick up a cadence sensor and pair it up with your bike computer, ride, listen to your body then adjust your gearing using a gear calculator to allow you to stay in your comfort zone. I managed to ets with only minor knee issues I've found that I'm most comfortable in the 75-90 range usually averaging around 83. For me getting my cleat positioned right makes all the difference with knee pain more so than spinning. An other variable is crank length and maybe oval options. Maybe worth noting the pro riders all pretty much fall into a similar body type, if you're framed like a pro they are an absolutely a fantastic resource, if not, less so. Highly recommend this gear calculator, www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html as you can see speed at a given cadence with your cranks/chainrings/cassette/wheels.

[@Hail2DRedskins]

@@All4Grogg Thanks for the great advise and the link. I will look at amazon for a sensor to pair with my gps comp.

[@webbovich77]

How many k’s are you getting out of that praxis chainring? Wolftooth chainrings are ~4000km and mine is skipping like mad now. They do a stainless steel, but not in a big enough size for road. Thoughts?

[@MountainRoadRide]

My experience with Praxis chainrings have been less than favorable. I experienced lots of dropped chains on their rings and chain also wore out fairly quickly. The “Wave Form” design that Praxis use just isn’t as good as a narrow-wide design, IMO. I switched to Wolftooth rings shortly after making this video and have yet to wear one of them out.

[@jamiecox2506]

Thanks for your video, champ. Shimano released "Mega-range" in the late 90's with a 36 tooth lowest gear. It was only ever fitted to comfort/leisure bikes and the guys in the bike shops laughed at it. I personally cannot see where the marketing is gong with todays dinner-plate-style cassettes. It's horses for courses when it comes to gears. We all use different bikes for different types of riding and therefor have different needs from our bikes and gear set-ups. Personally, I recently built another bike and thought I'd try an SLX 11-42 cassette to see what all the hype was about. I can tell you that I found it really awkward and somewhat useless for my type of riding and I felt if I was ONLY EVER doing very short distance then it would be ok, but I'm not. I swapped it out for 11-28 and it transformed the bike, my riding and my commute. I live in Brisbane, Oz and it's pretty hilly here! Having been into all types of bicycle my whole life, I can't see why a 'mountainbiker' or 'bikepacker' would benefit from this type of gear set-up.

[@battlecry385]

hi sir! i want to ask what is your suggested chain ring size for 1x chain ring setup?

[@MountainRoadRide]

This will depend on where you intend to ride most often. I use a 36T when I know that I'll face massive mountains, but otherwise I use a 42T chain ring. You can use this handy website to make calculations about chainring sizes: www.bikecalc.com/gear_ratios

[@battlecry385]

oh thank you very much sir! 😅... im planning on buying 58t or 53 t crank ... but i think its too big for a 1 speed thank you

[@g5magic]

Where can I get this chain guide?

[@MountainRoadRide]

From Amazon (amzn.to/3vsNY6D) or even directly from Wolf Tooth’s Website (bit.ly/2YWeHwM)

[@boracay12]

Why so worried about ounces of weight ?

[@rdr33]

I'm looking to upgrade my 3x7, because I'm maxing out the gears on the road, but I'm bit struggling on steep climbs. I have my eyes on either a 2x11 (11t-51t) or 2x12 (10t-51t), or if I go 1x12, I'll either have a 9t/10t - 50t. Having just used 3x7, I'm slightly inclined to choose a 2x due to more lower gears available and I assume a slightly better top speed than a 1x. I've watched another video (and this) saying that those jumps are mostly on the lower end of the range, I'm thinking if those jumps would really bother me at all, and because somehow I can manage climbs with a 28t chainring and 14t cog, so I guess those lower gears on a 2x would be unnecessary for me? Would I also miss out the 2x if I encounter sudden inclines where I could just shift to a smaller chainring? Again, I ride hilly terrain for the most part, while also enjoying high speed on descents/flats. I'd greatly appreciate your inputs. Cheers!

[@MountainRoadRide]

Sounds like you've given this a good amount of thought already. I can offer two pieces of additional advice. First is to ask yourself how sensitive you are to a specific cadence range. The reason why I don't like the bigger jumps is because I like to climb at high cadence. My preferred range is 95-105rpm. On steep climbs I will instantly loose momentum if I spin at anything below 80rpm or if my cadence sudden changes between shifts. Most people aren't as sensitive to cadence and can easily grind up hills at 70-80rpm and handle bigger gear jumps. My next advice would be to draw up some ratio tables to compare the different combinations of gears that you are considering. Use this site to help you: www.bikecalc.com/gear_ratios. I like to make use of the "Speed at Cadence" and "Cadence at Speed" tabs to really get a sense of how different gear combos will perform at various speeds and cadence ranges. I really think that this type of info will help you narrow down your decision.

[@QwertyUser1983]

As a reference, most RD have capacity as dictated by it size number, For example, Ltwoo A7 Elite have capacity of 51t before goat / extender link added, means you can use triple chainring c 22t-32t-44t s 11t-40t to give you good top speed 8.51 kph to 61.9 kph @ 120 rpm, or double chainring c 22t-34t s 11t-50t to give you better climbing at less top speed 6.81 kph to 47.8 kph @ 120 rpm. This assume that your tire ERTRO is 28-622. I hope this helps (´｡• ᵕ •｡`)

[@robertandrews3055]

I wonder how long Freddie Mercury has been into cycling?

[@MountainRoadRide]

The famous Queen song says it all" "Bicycle, bicycle, bicycle I want to ride my bicycle, bicycle, bicycle I want to ride my bicycle I want to ride my bike I want to ride my bicycle I want to ride it where I like"

[@redwallace7934]

It's always about the ratios

[@kyqx]

1X4Lyf!

[@SurpriseMeJT]

Should we want more efficient drivetrains even off-road? Yes. Do you feel the difference between a stretched chain and a chain that is new or in spec? I do. I don't think 1x will ever be as good as 2x/3x. How wide can we make the rear hub spacing in order to accommodate more gears? With a wider rear hub, the chain angles would be even more extreme. We could make the chainstay's longer to reduce the chain angle and perhaps as a result, allow even wider tires. Would all this trouble be necessary when there are mountain bikes that can be 2x? It's all just a scheme to make you buy new things and watch KZbin video's that help the "debate" by making money spending time talking about "the debate".

[@davidcawthorne7115]

No they cannot be as good as 2x.😊❤ I mean we may wish they were. But wishing something be true does not make it so. 🙃 They are fine for certain situations but not perfect even in those situations. No flip flop between chain rings but bigger jumps in gears like you say no solution to that. Chain guide sorts dropped chain like you say. Cross chaining no solution.

[@Ericdagreat]

Freddy Mercury?

[@MountainRoadRide]

Galileo, Galileo, Galileo, Figaro

[@cam0217]

Interesting but terrible music

[@bikebudha01]

No, 1x can never be as good as 2x. 1x always gives up something (it's simple physics). 1x either loses range, or loses proper steps between gears. Both make 1x a failure. Don't believe me? Look a the market. 1x was originally 1x10. The greatest thing since sliced bread they said. People went our and road it and it fell short. So 1x was 'reinvented' to be 1x11. People went our and road it and it fell short. So 1x is 'being reinvented' to be 1x13. Do you see the pattern here? 1x is great for puttering around flat bike paths. But if fails horribly for real riding. If your 1x system has both the high/low end of a 2x system, then the jumps between gears will be 5-10% greater. That's a killer. Picture yourself clawing up a long steep section. Now realize that a 1x system is going to make you choose between spinning way too easy, or grinding way too hard. - 2x is tried, true, and bombproof. There is no significant weight/aero/simplicity advantage offered by 1x (not that there is 'no' advantages, it's just that those advantages are so small as to be meaningless in the real world). - Why does 1x exist then? Profits. How much does a Shimano 1x set cost vs. a 2x set? Oh that's right, they cost the same. But there is half the components on a 1x system - cha ching! - Bonus failed argument. 1x allows for wider tires. Hmmmm. The specialized Diverge allows for 47mm tires. So that's 'not a thing'...

[@nick.j2772]

Thats like your opinion, man. 1x has the range needed when you have a 44t chainring and a 10-48t cassette. Sure there is not much on the market ATM and what is is very expensive (sram AXS mullet) but its coming. So of the 22 gears you have, how many do you actually use? Like 16? So in fact the jumps between gears will not be so big as you imagine and finding the optimal cadence will not be so much of a problem as you may think. 1x is more reliable, is simpler and BETTER.

[@bikebudha01]

@@nick.j2772 you are a fool. I have been ridng 2x and 3x for a loooong time. Never had any reliability issues. Shimano, Campi, Sram, all work flawless. My 2x system give my both higher and lower range, AND better jumps between gears. 1x is for bike path cruising only....

[@fredfred9000]

@@bikebudha01 or on mountain biking it is really practice and much simpler because you only have rear mech to focus , i built my commuter bike on 1x11 , very simple to , sure 2x you have more gears in between the biggest and the lowest but you get use to it in a 1 x , at least i get use to it

[@AX5324]

@@bikebudha01 ‘proper step’ and ‘better jumps’ sounds a bit subjective don’t you think? Depends on the type of riding someone does.. It would be a nightmare for me to dump 2/3 gears in a row every time I shift on very mixed terrain or a heavy singletrack.

[@bikebudha01]

@@AX5324 If you are crushing through heavy singletrack, you won't be shifting at all anyway. Because you won't be peddling. But having the right steps between gears is a life saver when you are 45 minutes into a 75 minute climb. Or are on that climb at hour 4, with 3 more hours to go.