The REAL Fog of War! (Podcast)

Nothing like having a perfect plan, and watching it all go sideways due to the vagaries of fate. Join us for a discussion of some of our favorite 'unlikely' moments we've had in our games!
Make sure to check out our friends over at Ardacon SBG International: www.ardaconsbg.com!

[@tabletoplandscapes7842]

Always a nice video, really good stories! I'd like to send you this new list I wrote to be judged. Generally what I look for is to add a second threat that can distract from the Watcher or that can in turn go unnoticed while the Watcher attracts attention. Secondly ally to cover holes in Moria such as better shooting, quick models, and magic. I have not seen (surely from my own lack of experience) matching the Watcher to a contingent of the Serpent horde, obviously to maximize the thematic component of a list intended just as Tolkien dreamed. Thinking about it, though, it does seem to me to cover so many of Moria's weaknesses: Moria + Serpent horde 700 punti Suladan on armored horse(Leader) 115 2 Serpent rider 26 6 Serpent guard 48 5 Haradrim warrior sper + bow 40 Durburz 70 1 Bat Swarm 35 5 Goblin warrior spear 25 5 Goblin warrior shield 25 2 Goblin warrior bow 10 2 Goblin prowler 14 Goblin captain 35 4 Goblin warrior spear 20 4 Goblin warrior shield 20 2 Goblin warrior bow 10 1 Goblin prowler 7 Watcher in the water 200 Number 43 models Might 9 Bows 9

[@sharbie9540]

Very amused that between us we’ve managed to put forward three separate lists that are Watcher+an allied contingent! If the group was feeling particularly enthused then a three-way comparison could be a particularly interesting list review. Which allied contingent is the best to support the Watcher?

[@tabletoplandscapes7842]

@@sharbie9540 Nice! Actually I too made 3 versione of it, the other two are of course spider queen and witchking contingest almost exactly as you suggested! I wanted to ask help for the Suladan version because it's the one i didn't see as often as the others

[@sharbie9540]

@@tabletoplandscapes7842haha, makes a lot of sense. I’d be keen to hear the group breakdown any/all of those builds!

[@OGEETOMO]

Love it. Here is a list: Total Points: 850, Total Units: 59 , 50%: 30, 25%: 14, Bows: 8 Warband 1 - Orc Captain's Warband Hero: Orc Captain (with Warg): 1 unit, 50 points Warriors: Warg Rider (with Banner and Throwing Spears): 1 unit, 37 points Warg Rider (with Throwing Spears): 7 units, 12 points each, totaling 84 points Warband 2 Witch King's Warband Hero: Witch King (with Crown of Morgul, Morgul Blade, 3 Might, 18 Will, 3 Fate): 1 unit, 175 points Warriors: Orc Warrior (with Pick): 9 units, 5 points each, totaling 45 points Orc Warrior (with Spear): 9 units, 6 points each, totalling 54 points Warband 3 - Ringwraith's Warband Hero: Ringwraith (with 2 Might, 11 Will, 1 Fate): 1 unit, 90 points Warriors: Orc Warrior (with Two-Handed Weapon): 6 units, 6 points each, totalling 36 points Black Guard of Barad-Dur: 4 units, 12 points each, totaling 48 points Warband 4 - Kardush's Warband Hero: Kardush: 1 unit, 60 points Warriors: Orc Warrior (with Pick):: 5 units, 5 points each, totaling 25 points Orc Warrior (with Spear): 5 units, 6 points each, totaling 30 points Warband 5 - Gorbag's Warband Hero: Gorbag (with Shield): 1 unit, 60 points Warriors: Orc Warrior (with Orc Bow and Spear): 8 units, 7 points each, totalling 56 points

[@sharbie9540]

Hi guys, great episode as ever, I certainly related to a lot of the stories of army leaders spontaneously dying to some random grunts. In terms of list review, I actually have two alternative 700-point lists, both based around the same core of the Watcher in the Water and Durburz. The core 375 points: Durburz Watcher 14 Goblins with spears 1 Bat First 325-point option: Spider Queen Goblin Captain Goblin Shaman Bat Swarm Giant Spider 15 Goblins (14 shields, 1 bow) Second 325-point option: Witch King 3/10/2 on horse with Crown 15 Black Nums 2 Warg Riders (throwing spears and shields) 1 Morannon (shield, spear, banner) The first option has the added punch and tricks of the Spider Queen, and a lot more mobility/Might generally. The second option has a banner, a cheap WK for spellcasting and combat punch in a pinch, a banner, and a much more solid frontline. Both are principally relying on the Watcher/Bat combo to win the game, with the first one seeming to have more alternative options while the second one can hopefully survive better until the Watcher wins it for me. Which would you prefer at 700, and are there any other small tweaks you’d make? Interested to hear your views

[@user-dy7kz9qj1h]

I would really like to see a points level discussion video. I know that there is no 'best' or 'ideal' points level for a good game, but maybe a discussion of what each points level is good for. E.g., best points level for a small one-day tournament, for a large multi-day tournament, for teams, for a casual fun afternoon game, how to balance the quality of the games with the speed of completion and fitting x number of games into a day, etc. For me, I always want an army to look and feel like an actual army, and that means that at least 3 warbands. So I would gravitate towards a points level that would allow even elite factions like elves to field three full (or almost full) warbands alongside an expensive hero. I think that 700 is the bare minimum you would need for that, maybe 750. Another metric I would use is: what is the minimum points required to allow Moria to take the Balrog and outnumber most opponents with goblins? Again, I think 750 is about the level. I think a lot of people would benefit from a discussion of this from some seasoned tournament players!

[@thgsMASK]

Here's a list I really enjoy playing, I think this is probably one of the best ways to run a great beast of gorgoroth. I think 500 points is just the right amount to avoid too many compelling wizards whilst having enough to get the fury on the orc commander, whilst still affording a sturdy leader. I know Goroth is a weird pick, I just like that he's still a F5 striking guy with to-wound modifiers who's very hard to kill when fighting with his army for only 80 points. Surrounded by troops, he's nearly unkillable, and can come out and assassinate targets in exposed positions once you've broken up your enemy with, Impacts, bows, fireballs and Morannons. Never taken this to a tournament but I think it would do very well against a lot of lists at 500, some people have said they find it hard to keep kardush within 6" of the commander but I haven't really struggled in my practice games; would love to hear some thoughts. Thanks c Warband 1 (Leader) Goroth Captain of the Morannon Morannon orc, Shield x5 Morannon orc , Shield, Spear x5 Morannon orc, Shield, Banner x1 Warband 2 Kardush the Firecaller Morannon orc, Shield x5 Morannon orc , Shield, Spear x5 Mordor Orc Shield, Spear x1 Warband 3 Great Beast of Gorgoroth 6 Might, 34 Models

[@mickdueholm7628]

Great episode as always guys! I was hoping you could review this list: I've really struggled to use it effectively, so I was wondering if it should be built differently or if I just need to get better. Dark Powers of Dol Guldur/Azog's Hunters: 47 models, 8 bows, 8 might Warband 1 9/15 The Lingering Shadow (NoDG) 4 Hunter Orc 1 Gundabad Orc Warrior with Banner; Shield; 3 Gundabad Orc Warrior with Spear; Shield; 1 Fell Warg ---- Warband 2 9/15 The Witch-king (NoDG) 1 Hunter Orc with Two-handed pick; 3 Hunter Orc 3 Gundabad Orc Warrior with Spear; Shield; 1 Gundabad Orc Warrior with Spear; 1 Fell Warg ---- Warband 3 6/6 Castellan of Dol Guldur with Morgul Blade; 3 Gundabad Orc Warrior with Spear; Shield; 3 Gundabad Orc Warrior with Shield; ---- Warband 4 6/6 Castellan of Dol Guldur with Morgul Blade; 3 Gundabad Orc Warrior with Spear; Shield; 3 Gundabad Orc Warrior with Shield; ---- Warband 5 12/12 Fimbul the Hunter with Fell warg; 6 Hunter Orc with Orc bow; 4 Hunter Orc 2 Fell Warg ----

[@DaveE7492]

800 Points Mordor List. Warband One Guritz (Leader). Orc Drummer. 1x Orc Warrior with banner. 5x Morannon Orcs with shields. 5x Morannon Orcs with spears and shields. Warband Two Kardush. 4x Orc Trackers. 4x Morannon Orcs with shields. 4x Morannon Orcs with spears and shields. Warband Three Grishnak with shield. 6x Morannon Orcs with shields. 6x Morannon Orcs with spears and shields. Warband Four Gorbag with shield. 5x Morannon Orcs with shields. 5x Morannon Orcs with spears and shields. Warband Five Zagdush. 5x Morannon Orcs with shields. 5x Morannon Orcs with spears and shields.

[@dakotahsnyder5125]

750 points | 52 models Survivors of Lake-town Bard The Bowman: Armour, Horse (155) 1x Alfrid the Councillor (20) 1x Sigrid & Tilda (30) 5x Lake-town Militia: Shield (30) 5x Lake-town Militia: Spear (30) 4x Lake-town Militia: Bow (24) Gandalf the Grey: Horse (180) 4x Lake-town Militia: Shield (24) 4x Lake-town Militia: Spear (24) 4x Lake-town Militia: Bow (24) Lake-town Militia Captain: Shield (45) 6x Lake-town Militia: Shield (36) 6x Lake-town Militia: Spear (36) Percy (50) 7x Lake-town Militia: Bow (42) I’ve never played survivors/army of Laketown. From my understanding army is better at lower points. I’m trying to be competitive and lately I’ve been getting destroyed by magic and having no counter to it. So I thought I’d take a list that has some, but still has numbers as well (which hopefully if I make a mistake, will help me). I’ve also thought about dropping Gandalfs Warband and adding thorin mounted, and a handful of IH troops (may have to mess with the warbands a touch). This will give me 2 free heroic combat heros and then a partial frontline of IH troops. Obviously forgoing magic for damage output here. Any tips or thoughts would be helpful

[@bilboswaggins7427]

Great video! Loved hearing the stories. Your discussions about bottemless pits prompted me to ask you guys a question regarding terrain. What, in your mind, makes a good board? Theme? Varied levels/verticality? Would you ever use a board with something like bottemless pits in a tournament setting? Should tournament boards use generic scenery/setup so there is no true advantage to any one army based on matchups? Do you play with alot of interior terrain (i.e. inside rohan houses or gondor mansions)? I ask because i love building thematic and interactive boards myself and am curious to hear your opinions regarding thematic boards in a tournament setting.

[@rob6490]

I have an Iron Hills list I'd love your opinions on before I buy anything, because the resin minis are so much more expensive than the plastic kits. Warband 1 Dain Ironfoot (war boar) 1 warrior (banner, spear, shield) 7 warriors (spear, shield) 5 warriors (crossbow, spear) 1 goat rider (war spear) Warband 2 Captain (war goat, war spear) 6 warriors (spear, shield) 4 warriors (crossbow, spear) 1 goat rider (war spear) 600 points, 27 models, 9 bows, 5 might

[@obicproductions890]

Hi There, this is Alisher, obviously I cant speak for anyone else in the group (hopefully we get a chance to discuss this in an episode), but just to give you some early input, I like the list and it is actually very similar to the first iron hills list I played at an event. I will say from experience, while the dwarves are defensive beasts, you definitely need to be considerate of your low numbers. Dain and the captain have to be contributing a lot in the list. Something that I have seen others do, which may be beneficial here is to drop some of the spears from shield men and then try to use those points to get another body. In Iron Hills every model counts.

[@ReganSmash83]

Hi guys, would you mind reviewing my list for LVO? I’m pretty new to running evil armies but I’ve been having a lot of fun with the Witch King on fell beast 800 points | 48 models Mordor, The Serpent Horde The Witch-King of Angmar (Leader): Fell Beast, Crown of Morgul, Might x3, Will x7, Fate x3 (210) 5x Black Numenorean (45) 1x Morannon Orc: Banner, Shield, Spear (34) 4x Morannon Orc: Shield, Spear (36) 1x Orc Warrior: Two-handed weapon (6) 1x Orc Warrior: Spear (6) 1x Orc Tracker (5) The Mouth of Sauron: Armoured horse (85) 4x Black Numenorean (36) 4x Morannon Orc: Shield, Spear (36) 3x Orc Warrior: Two-handed weapon (18) 3x Orc Warrior: Spear (18) Suladan the Serpent Lord: Armoured horse (115) 4x Serpent Rider (52) 5x Haradrim Warrior: Spear (35) 9x Haradrim Warrior: Bow with poisoned arrows (63)

[@obicproductions890]

Hi There, this is Alisher, obviously I cant speak for anyone else in the group (hopefully we get a chance to discuss this in an episode) but I think your list is a tank. The one note I always give people who play the WK on fell beast is that I think it causes people to play more aggressively with him than they should be. I really dislike playing against the WK typically as he is so points efficient, but I think every time I have played against the WK on fell beast I have ended up killing him early into the game. That being said, a friend of mine just won Clash on the Coast (the Vancouver 70 person GT) and the WK on fell beast was his centrepiece. At 800 you may also want to consider taking the shadow lord; I know he costs more than the mouth, but his anti shooting special rule is so useful for the list. You may also want to take a few watchers of karna, they are just useful as high courage bodies for thinks like Angmar. I also recommend that people take the morgul blade on the WK if they can (it is unbelievable gullavhar repellent).

[@ReganSmash83]

@@obicproductions890 Thanks for the great feedback on the list. I agree with what you say about the witch king on the fell beast being to aggressive but I'm more so using the movement and potential to flash kill an out of position transfixed hero. I hadn't thought about the morgul blade before because the fell beast usually allows me to one shot most things but I'll take it under consideration. I had also considered adding some merchant guard in place of some of the haradrim with spears but I'll take a second look at watchers of karna. Big worry about the shadow lord for me is the points cost and losing out on bodies but I'll take a second look at him.

[@evil89spirit]

Hi, returning to mesbg on local tournament 600 points. I am looking for feedback if the list is ok? What is average number of models at this size? Do i have enough will, migth, protection from terror and cavallery? Plan is to let Cave dragon and enraged spiders do the work, bats help with mighty heros. Wargs for grabing objectives, respond for cavalry? Shaman for late game courage. durburz to attack normal Warriors or hold hero for 2 turns. List: Durburz 1xbat swarm, 2xprowlers, 11 moria Warriors Druzhag's 2x giant spider, 2x Wild warg , 1x prowler, 5 Warriors Cave drake and 6 moria bows Moria shaman and 5 Warriors 11 orc bows in army. Any respons is welcome :)

[@obicproductions890]

Hi There, this is Alisher, obviously I cant speak for anyone else in the group (hopefully we get a chance to discuss this in an episode) but personally I like the list; though I do have a few notes. Your list is a little light on models for 600 given that you have goblins as your main numbers backbone. This is fine given how much fire power that you have, but it is probably good to keep in mind that you cant be frivolous with your goblins like you usually can (Army of laketown/goblintown/mordor/corsairs can probably rival if not outnumber you). I think 7 might is plenty for the list (I usually want to have one point of might for every 100 points I play). Against terror armies that use wraiths, your shaman is going to become public enemy #1 and your opponent may try to direct a lot of fire power towards them quickly (this is just something to note). The cave drake is an absolute beast (one of the more under-rater heroes in the game imo) so dont be worried about getting him into combat.

[@evil89spirit]

Hi, thank you for replay. The list did great on tournament/game day. I won two games :). First game on artefact i won over dwarfs with eagle. The second game scenario 9 i think ( fight for one central objective). I faced bear, beornings. I had lucky start with coming on the map with 3 6s. So I could kill one enemy warband with 3 of mine. 7 mights is great! Bats and spider did great work. Shaman fury is the most important thing in the list, for facing terror, brekin.

[@evil89spirit]

What would you add to get to 700 points army? Goblin captain? And max goblins? Or second bat swarm?