The reality of the developer job market with ex-Googler YK Sugi [Podcast

On this week's episode of the podcast, freeCodeCamp founder Quincy Larson interviews YK Sugi. He's a software engineer and prolific KZbin Computer Science tutorial creator. He's worked at Google and Microsoft. He runs the CS Dojo channel where he shares his insights on software development, AI, and developer career progressions.
We talk about:
Emerging AI tools and how developers are adopting them
The role of interest rates in developer hiring
Japan's developer work culture VS the US
How not to burn out
Can you guess what song I'm playing in the intro?
Also, I want to thank the 10,993 kind people who support our charity each month, and who make this podcast possible. You can join them and support our mission at: www.freecodeca...
Or you can listen to the podcast in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Be sure to follow the freeCodeCamp Podcast there so you'll get new episodes each Friday.
Links we talk about during our conversation:
YK's freeCodeCamp article on the resume he used to get a job at Google: www.freecodeca...
YK's freeCodeCamp article about leaving his job at Google to focus on entrepreneurship: www.freecodeca...
YK's popular CS Dojo KZbin channel: / csdojo
YK on Twitter: x.com/ykdojo
Timestamps:
00:00: Introduction and YK Sugi's background
01:38: AI's impact on developer jobs and current capabilities
07:14: How developers are using AI tools and future trends
12:28: AI's influence on developer productivity and code completion
17:00: The changing landscape of software development with AI
22:20: The future of the developer job market and AI's role
27:00: Interest rates, the tech sector, and the job market
31:29: Challenges and advice for aspiring developers
37:55: Skill acquisition and the evolving learning landscape
42:22: Addressing audience concerns about the job market's future
47:30: The future of software development and the importance of skills
53:27: AI in learning and education: Just-in-time knowledge
57:24: YK Sugi's career path: From Google to KZbin to Sourcegraph
1:05:35: YK Sugi's insights on developer advocacy and content creation
1:12:12: Advice for aspiring developer advocates and content creators
1:16:01: Stress management, work culture, and the importance of direction
1:22:53: Missed opportunities and the future of Japanese tech companies

[@CSDojo]

Thank you so much for having me here! If anyone here's interested in using AI in a professional software engineering environment, this other podcast interview I did recently is probably a good place to start: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fWicopSigdJ_gdUsi=IU8-nRsaZL1Uxcs5

[@superbeef1337]

Yes, for an ex-google ex-microsoft dev the market is, in fact, not dead. Good for them I guess.

[@carlogustavovalenzuelazepe5774]

Im an ex CS student and a ex worked on another place not related to IT, and its hard

[@Matt-m3y-r4u]

Right lol. Most people don't have a CS degree from Berkeley or MIT, internships and experience from FAANG companies. The days of getting a job as a self-taught candidate with a cute portfolio to showcase are long gone! Even entry level IT (support) has become competitive!

[@JJ-bj6hg]

62% of cs students do not work in tech. This is even before the pandemic. ​@@carlogustavovalenzuelazepe5774

[@longrolstral]

Bypass the _job_ completely, and build your own stuff that people will use.

[@uwotm8634]

​@@longrolstralEasier said than done

[@DennisIvy]

"Software development is NOT for everyone". I appreciate this take. It's spot on but also unpopular to say in many circles.

[@Livingwithadog]

Programming is the same as any other tech job and it requires a lot more than just technical skills. These jobs are not going away it just a threshold for these jobs will become higher. I believe people should be more worried about outsourcing if your job is fully remote

[@Dawsatek22]

yeah that what sure about that

[@Matt-m3y-r4u]

They're not going away but you mention (rightfully so) outsourcing? Did I read that wrong? If jobs are outsourced, for cheap labor overseas, they are indeed going away - off the US market.

[@CSDojo]

00:00: Introduction and YK Sugi's background 01:38: AI's impact on developer jobs and current capabilities 07:14: How developers are using AI tools and future trends 12:28: AI's influence on developer productivity and code completion 17:00: The changing landscape of software development with AI 22:20: The future of the developer job market and AI's role 27:00: Interest rates, the tech sector, and the job market 31:29: Challenges and advice for aspiring developers 37:55: Skill acquisition and the evolving learning landscape 42:22: Addressing audience concerns about the job market's future 47:30: The future of software development and the importance of skills 53:27: AI in learning and education: Just-in-time knowledge 57:24: YK Sugi's career path: From Google to KZbin to Sourcegraph 1:05:35: YK Sugi's insights on developer advocacy and content creation 1:12:12: Advice for aspiring developer advocates and content creators 1:16:01: Stress management, work culture, and the importance of direction 1:22:53: Missed opportunities and the future of Japanese tech companies For everyone who says the software engineering market is tough - it definitely is. Here's how to make it easier: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qnSteqSlr8uKZrMsi=B4d1y7nb6Y2jPoth For anyone who's curious about how to use AI in a professional software engineering environment, this other podcast interview I did is a good place to start: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fWicopSigdJ_gdUsi=IU8-nRsaZL1Uxcs5

[@Zephyr-Yorrichi]

Woah, CS is here, anyways thx

[@CSDojo]

I see a bunch of comments about the software engineering market being tough. It IS tough as I mentioned it multiple times in this video. There are ways to make it slightly easier for yourself, though. I cover them in this other podcast interview I did in May: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qnSteqSlr8uKZrMsi=B4d1y7nb6Y2jPoth

[@jibrilrichter2852]

Thank you for what you do!

[@mikahbee]

@freecodecamp please pin this

[@mehmetkoyuncuoglu1647]

Then find me a job if you can. But you cannot bruh. You are just playing people's hope.

[@gabrielignat4371]

For fresh graduates/juniors it's really hard to get a job /intern now

[@FLOPTURNRIVER]

that's because you are not guaranteed a job just because you graduated from college - a major misconception that many people still believe is true

[@mryup6100]

​@@FLOPTURNRIVERTrue, but the market is tougher for new grads in tech than it's ever been.

[@user-hk3pj5xl3u]

@@FLOPTURNRIVER Price for college is crazy, and job is not guaranteed thats what is a problem...

[@Sg6CrossOver]

​@@user-hk3pj5xl3uThat's the problem with the education system, they're selling you a degree and get their cut, but it isn't related to the risk. Some will double down going for a masters or more.

[@nicomartina]

The problem is ppl found out that by learning a programming language and building a few sites you could be a software engineer. So now everybody does that so companies ask for more skills. But ppl jump over the fact that in the past all those ppl build a career went to college and been coding since they were kids/teenagers. Everybody started skipping the road to success instead of walking the path. And this is the result.

[@JesseMurphy-o9q]

YK also recommends that developers focus on continuous learning and maintain a work-life balance to avoid burnout

[@hypnaudiostream3574]

His opening statement was spot on. Literacy does not require you make it your profession

[@awwtergirl7040]

Coding is not literacy. Coding is coding. Learning programming is not some fundamental skill like writing, reading and math. Doing it for a hobby? Okay, sure. But I put in the same category as learning how to fly a plane, sail a boat or drive a big truck. The utility from learning it mostly in whether you can monetize it. Otherwise you just learned a hobby.

[@FreeThink1984]

It’s dead for most normal people

[@rendivs]

so don't be average 🔥🔥🔥

[@miguelblanco3484]

@@rendivs If everyone becomes really good, we also will become average because that's the %%%%% average.

[@rendivs]

@@miguelblanco3484 the world is controlled by "God" is not human so it will always balance, the world always has winners and losers, sellers and buyers, just focus to be the best version of yourself, we are just human, we only can try to get our goals, the results only God can decided

[@rendivs]

@@miguelblanco3484 if you focus on something you cant control u will be depressed every single day

[@longrolstral]

That's just the attitude that employers are looking for.

[@keithrincon]

Great video guys! I liked how YK managed to get a 5 star wanted level and back down to 0 during his conversation.

[@freecodecamp]

Yeah - I wasn't sure whether to stop the interview with all the sirens. I'm glad I didn't just so I could chuckle at your comment. - Quincy

[@opposedhealer1826]

The market is crap because the work conditions are awful, the prospects are continually in the air, your coworkers are generally not great, and the goal posts are always changing. You have to have passion AND masochism/desire to step on others to succeed. It’s just a bad environment right now, OR alternatively be established within the industry. It’s not appealing.

[@Nero-xv]

what are you yappin about

[@KingKikikoi]

Agreed it’s absolutely horrid, it’s like I am working 24/7 at this point. We preach a lot about work life balance but literally everyone is pushing tickets after midnight everyday 😂

[@utubes720]

And “agile” which I call the “never-ending death march”. Plus all the ridiculous performative mandatory “agile meetings”. Back in the day, you finished your work and handed it off to QA and had some down time to catch your breath while BA’s and Architects hammered out some details for the upcoming work. And the scope for next 2-3 months was very well defined so managers could actually bake in a decent workload.

[@Black_Terror8910]

Amazing insights guys especially For me I'm from South Africa I dream of becoming a software developer droped out school grade 11 am 26 u you guys are my inspiration you touch case sensitive issues that are real time issues for a developer's .

[@SmeiskAudio]

I'm... new to this industry. Been an audio technician and sound designer for the entertainment industry for 10 years and was getting bored of it, went to school to grab a "cheap" Associates degree in Software Development from my community college. I'm glad i took those courses, i learned a ton, and really enjoyed the development projects i got to take on. I wish i knew what to do with all this to actually make it into something productive. I enjoy coding, but i have no idea what to do with these skills. And though I've applied to multiple jobs, if I'm lucky i might see one rejection letter a week. You really do have to make your own "fun" in this industry don't you. And maybe that fun can turn into some income in the end as well. I mean, aside from wanting something more interesting to do (there's only so many times that you can do sound checks with bands and performance troupes until you get bored with it...), i did want to maybe make more than $20k/yr and get out of the entertainment industry? America.... Nobody can really make it here, can they? (I might be slightly depressed 😔)

[@freecodecamp]

Hey hang in there and keep applying and going to events where you might be able to meet with employers. The job market isn't at its all time peak but it's not that far off from it. Opportunities are out there. Also, a lot of your audio production work skills and discipline should carry over and help you be a strong dev.

[@SquaredCircle777]

The problem is that being a "dev" got WAY too popular way too fast. You really need to carve yourself a niche to stand out in this job market, unless you're insanely proficient in a popular language.

[@severedghost]

I've gotten in the last 3 days, 3 job offers. If you don't have experience, you're going to have to be good at more than just programming to get a job. Master your soft skills, and communication. That will give you a leg up on the competition.

[@kozmikhero6749]

Happy I switched to welding 4 years ago

[@patrickchan2503]

glad you are doing well, did you switch from tech to welding?

[@kozmikhero6749]

@@patrickchan2503 Web dev to welding. I was tired of the constant learning, offices, sometimes hr people and tired of being in front of a computer. I still code but as a fun hobby now

[@patrickchan2503]

@@kozmikhero6749 Glad it is working out for you. I know what you mean... have to keep up with frontend frameworks, and no there is no code clunky GUI to learn, and after all the learning, AI is taking over. I left my admin office work before as I got sick of it, did some menial work but there was still politics and was always on my feet, but I realised my strengths were in the office, happy to retrain as I like learning. I suppose I have had a varied career and many stories.

[@Freshlygrazed]

I recently got a job building furniture for restaurants and bars. As much as I like web dev, I'm ready to move on from the scene.

[@patrickchan2503]

@@Freshlygrazed well done. Follow your skills and passion

[@longrolstral]

Are learners going about employment the wrong way? There are so many comments about getting a job, but when people are so negative about the job market, they might end up being the people who give up and then complain. Try creating your own apps, platforms/services for people to use, who will then pay you all of the money, instead of the wholesale, lowest possible _competitive_ salary that an employer may give you. The people from Neg City will cry out about how hard it is to develop your own apps and make them successful. Well, you have a 100% chance of failure when you don't even try.

[@freecodecamp]

Thanks for saying this and I encourage you to continue to say this, because there is a lot of people prematurely resigning themselves to not being able to work in tech, when they are just going about the job search the wrong way.

[@mercury-pc5qc]

THIS! I was waiting for this comment. Thank you

[@longrolstral]

@@freecodecamp Thank you for your reply. I'm learning PHP by building a large project, while avoiding tutorial hell. Even if it doesn't work out and give me my retirement money, it might attract employers to me, on the basis that I tried, built it all myself, and they can use it themselves, which is a long way from yet another tic-tac-toe board and to-do list. I have completed some parts of it, and I know that it needs refactoring, so that will be another leg of research and reading to do. As new components are required, I need to find out what I need to use to get it working. That I think is a key skill to possess. I do have disagreements with Gemini (free ver), since it insists of giving the same suggestions that do not work, and I end up solving it myself. I never use AI for chunks of code, but it is useful to point me in the direction of the information I need to learn from. When my app is generating money, I probably will pay for AI as an assistant. I am working through FCC's PostgreSql courses because they will give me another angle of attack on DBs, as well as MySql that I know some things about of and using with my app. I learnt about about COALESE in MySQL yesterday, which is a nice string function. Creating your own stuff is so important and forces people to think of something that may be unique, rather than what the other 10,000 are coding along to for their generic profile. Then again, if you think of an idea, another person may well have thought of it as well. After all, a brain is a brain not necessarily a speciality, although there are some amazing minds riding around in skulls.

[@longrolstral]

@@mercury-pc5qc You're welcome. Start/continue building.

[@ShoazizJabborov-y5e]

Very useful podcast

[@esteban-alvino]

Hello, this is great interesting video, keep up the good mood and embrace the change. Kudos

[@mrswolls]

The market requires you being top talent at this point, imo. Otherwise, everyone wouldn't be complaining about not getting hired.

[@TheYou1483]

Spot on, and even if you are that talented for a job they're gonna hire you for sometime, then lay you off once you served your purpose. There's no incentive to work in corporate anymore, unless you're the owner of the company.

[@Aifilmsmaker]

10 million 🎉🎉 celebrate 😊

[@fuzzy0001]

Now a days companies are focusing on automating the tasks which humans are doing and decreasing the number of employees, every year there are layoffs. I believe RPA has more share in layoffs than AI. Business owners are happy to purchase Rpa bot and paying yearly license because bot will not get ill, no annual leave. No benefits, no insurance required. Bot will work 24/7 without getting tired.

[@TheIVNRB]

Dead? No, almost dead...

[@Sapienti-zr4el]

Waiting for 10m.

[@be4good716]

I knew his since his first KZbin!!

[@moarte6]

Why is there so much power in saying ex-google, ex-microsoft, ex-apple and so on

[@fuzzy0001]

@@moarte6 ex-girlfriend

[@utterdisregard8176]

Ask Tech Lead

[@patrickchan2503]

@@utterdisregard8176 he's a scammer though

[@longrolstral]

I saw a video of someone in a 'robo-taxi' in China: 100% self-driving. Well, it appeared that way. I suppose it could have been under remote control.

[@paulevans4905]

Lol....all these these people teaching how to code are going to be on the chopping block as well.

[@tonygao7868]

Programming is the same as any job, and it requires a lot more than just technical skills i.e., soft skills. These jobs are not going away it just a threshold for these jobs will become higher. I believe people shouldn't be more worried about outsourcing, immigration, AI and the like due to the fact that it's inevitable. Governments don't make jobs, because its not their role they play in society. While it's businesses (companies to freelancing) that create jobs.

[@internallyinteral]

Idk the DOL shows the amount of SWE job declining over 3 years. I would not want to be someone pursuing a degree with hopes of getting a job right now. That could change but I have doubts.

[@olyvarjohannes6094]

Hmmmm some content Creator telling people coding job is not done no it is done my worst life choice was getting into programming

[@abhi.r8]

Shut up dude you are a ex google employee come and try to get a software job in india 🇮🇳 is so though and saturated market I am unemployed from almost 2 years inspite of having a work experience of a year in a product based company

[@mehmetkoyuncuoglu1647]

If it is easy to get a job, then I will give my resume this guy to find me a job. If he does, I'll pay him 10% of my salary lol

[@darasat]

Gpt with the correct instructions can create easily a crud or a webpage in few minutes. But if we want to create a facebook or uber app exact clone, surely gpt is not going to be helpful.

[@TupacUS711]

It's going to be very helpful just wait a little longer when OpenAI release the mother of the current GPT

[@fuzzy0001]

A software engineer can use AI to solve the problems and get the job done more effectively and in a short amount of time.

[@opposedhealer1826]

Only if they FIRST know what they’re doing and know that the AI can make mistakes that can compound. Putting rookie SEs in projects and throwing AI tools at them and expecting golden projects is a recipe for disaster.

[@danser_theplayer01]

Can use AI to *maybe possibly slightly help to* solve a problem. Damn AI can't even properly write a short timing test. You know like get time here, run this, and get time there and output the difference.

[@921Ether]

​@@opposedhealer1826a rookie dev + ai is still more productive than one without

[@Matt-m3y-r4u]

Not all software engineers are skilled with AI.

[@GiantsOnTheHorizon]

@@danser_theplayer01I’ve been using Claude. It’s at a different level. Almost everything I’ve thrown at it, it’s figured out and done it well.

[@BooksWeCanRead]

2 sentences Ad 2 sentences Ad 2 sentences Ad I can’t even follow with these interruptions like no I’m out

[@embo_5787]

no ublock??

[@miroslavmajer5155]

install the add blocker to your browser, man

[@BooksWeCanRead]

You guys are watching this on your computers?

[@KingKikikoi]

Time to buy KZbin premium with your software engineer check 😂

[@BB-848-VAC]

​@@KingKikikoinever

[@duke8925]

Please, timestamps

[@AnonymousAccount514]

Soul Coughing

[@freecodecamp]

You got it.

[@hawkingradiation3774]

summary for this video?

[@sockMonster241]

It's dead and they're out of touch because they made it before it was difficult.

[@psi_yutaka]

"Will AI take SWE jobs in the future?" "No... AI isn't quite there yet." As if some magic gonna freeze AI development at its 2024 state. While the top labs are aiming to build literal machine gods in 2027. Giga cope.

[@CoreValue666]

Fifa 99

[@awwtergirl7040]

It's dead for normies. Go learn how to put pipes together. Coding for most people is a useless skill and should NOT be compared to writing or math. Coding is NOT in the same league as those fundamentals as we are moving more and more to no-code or low-code world anyway.

[@fuzzy0001]

@@awwtergirl7040 yeah no code and low code... probably in future more system & business analysts job will appear in the market,

[@TheAlgorithmicJourney]

I recommend that as a first job before getting a degree in a STEM field. In any case, I remember when I was younger and people thought that robots would replace plumbers or be doing construction work, and yet, trade jobs are growing with not enough people to fill them. Even today, AI can spit out mathematics and statistics much faster than human mathematicians and statisticians, and yet, they're not going away. What will happen is that the nature of coding will change. Not software developers going away. Human creativity will remain and AI doesn't possess that human creativity.

[@paulevans4905]

​@@fuzzy0001OR....ai will do that as well.....money is the only motivation.

[@jordanolson11]

bro of course an asian is saying this