The Reason People Don't Like Dune

Since I started Doing Dune videos on this channel I have had hundreds of people tell me that they read Dune after watching some of my videos. But Dune is not for everyone. And Many people have expressed to me that for certain reasons, they’ve not been able to truly get into the series. Here are some of the main reasons that I’ve seen why people don’t like Frank Herbert's Dune Saga.
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[@DarthGeddy]

"Many men have tried the book... so many, but some did not succeed." "They tried and failed?" "They tried and died.”

[@ieatgremlins]

Hahaha

[@fuferito]

@@BradBolin, I challenge that with a true story. I was reading Dune, yet again, some time back, while waiting for my bus. I heard someone say, "Muad'ib" outloud. I look up, and it's some twenty-something kid I've never met nod to me. "Great book," he says. I nod and reply in agreement and, he goes about his merry way. Some boring book, eh?

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

I havent' met anyone yet who has died after failing.

[@tatitorodriguez376]

Nice

[@Shkunk1]

You'll meet my gom jabbar.

[@dameofthelake]

Dune is not a space adventure. I think many people who seeks it get disappointed for this reason. Dune is not an easy reading, it takes time and reflexion. I love Dune!

[@wtk6069]

That's it exactly. It's a case of subverted expectations as the series wraps itself in classic space opera tropes but then goes in a decidedly more serious direction. I didn't like Dune when I read it in college for this reason but revisiting it a decade later, I liked it much better.

[@walterwillis5351]

Alessandra - totally agree, it's not easy scifi to read. It is very layered and has many themes to dig into. I tried reading it when I was in my early 20's and got through the first book, started the second and dropped it. Finally read the whole series a few years ago in my early 50's.

[@aperson22222]

Don't think I agree that it's not a space adventure. Certainly that's not _all_ it is, and it doesn't match the usual expectations for one, but it still tells a perfectly serviceable and, dare I say, exciting space story, with high fantastical stakes and an extensive interstellar backdrop to explore. You're not betraying or invalidating or opting out of the book's deeper meanings by denying that those elements are there as well.

[@zb1123]

You mean reflection?

[@chadwick4517]

@@aperson22222 Exactly. It's amazing how many people fail to this. Yes, Dune is defenitely a thinking man or womans Star Wars & it's the BIG IDEA, THE HIGH CONCEPT, that is a big part of it's amazing, world building narrative but it's also about a boy & his father who were very close, loses him, gets very, very pissed off about it & decides to essentially topple an empire and slaughter those directly responsible for it. At it's core it's a very HUMAN story & if Villenueve can bring both of those things together so that they compliment each other, the cerebral & the visceral, we may get the kind of science fiction movie that are few and far between. We may get a classic. The board is set & all the pieces are there. It's really in Villenueve's hands now because I just have this feeling the money men are going to let him , for the most part, realize his vision. Can't wait.

[@nickgarcia1139]

A lot of these comments come across as condescending and almost insulting to people who dislike Dune...I love the Dune saga, it's one of my favorite book series and Children of Dune may be my favorite book of all-time. However, the style of storytelling isn't for everyone...doesn't mean you're dumber if you don't like it. Everyone has different tastes, no need to shit on them.

[@ClaireYunFarronXIII]

Very true. Finally someone gets it.

[@sahamal_savu]

The problem arises when people shit on the story or the author because they find it too difficult or challenging. If you don't like it for those reasons that is your choice but don't pretend those aren't the reasons and try to nitpick it to make yourself feel smarter. Sometimes I want to just relax and enjoy something easy and predictable but I refuse to criticize something more complex simply because I cannot understand it.

[@sid2112]

Just giving them a little ribbing. I got the comic book fan boys in with my comment!

[@sid2112]

Just giving them a little ribbing. I got the comic book fan boys in with my comment!

[@ChristianAuditore14]

"Everyone who doesn't like the garbage I worship is dumb" lmao

[@Werrf1]

I've tried, many times, to enjoy the Dune series. I've tried, even more times, to put my finger on exactly what it is that doesn't work for me. Since few of my answers were on your list, I hope you'll forgive me for providing some here. My current answer #1 - the worldbuilding. I'm a sucker for good worldbuilding, but in Dune the worldbuilding is mostly wasted - and what isn't wasted is rushed. There's all this intricate detail about the Spacing Guild, CHOAM, the Landsraad, but none of it affects the story. It's thrown in, it's referenced, but it never actually means anything. While I love worldbuilding, I hate stories that build up an interesting world only to destroy it without really exploring any of it. And while I don't think that "Show don't tell" is the be-all and end-all of storytelling, far too much of the worldbuilding _is_ simply told to us. Even worse, some of the worldbuilding that _is_ relevant to the story is simply told, without any exploration. Why is Suk conditioning considered to be unbreakable? Dunno; we're just told that it is. That last part feeds into answer #2 - it's not nearly as clever as it seems to think it is. This shows up quite a bit. We keep being presented with events and ideas that the text clearly expects are shocking twists, but leave me thinking "really? That's it?" Like the Suk conditioning mentioned above. It's universally considered to be unbreakable, to the extent that the notion of Doctor Yueh betraying the Atreides is written off as simply inconceivable. But apparently, it's broken by...threatening his wife. Possibly the single most obvious method of influencing a person ever. I’ve heard the explanation of “but his wife was a Bene Gesserit and had bonded with him!” That doesn’t help. Unfortunately, this kind of thing shows up repeatedly in the story. Basic concepts of good leadership, like valuing human life over profit, are presented as galaxy-shaking innovations. This really undermines the worldbuilding. It’s hard to believe that in ten thousand years of galactic civilization, no noble house has had a really good leader and a couple of good soldiers, yet the Atreides have apparently built an army that could rival the Sardukar with just that. He who controls the Spice, controls the universe…but nobody in ten thousand years has thought of using that leverage to overthrow the emperor. Sure. The writing style doesn’t help, and it’s #3 on my list. It’s part of that “Show don’t tell” business. It always feels like the story is holding us at arm’s length. We’re not inhabiting the characters and viewing the world through them or with them; we’re observing them from a distance. The inhumanity of the protagonists really bites here. For most people, the loss of a child would be beyond devastating, a blow that they might never recover from. For Paul and Chani, it’s just…whatever. We’ll have another one later. Give him the same name, nobody will know the difference. Seriously, what is even the point of Leto I’s existence? There’s a TV Trope for “Sci-fi Writers Have No Sense Of Scale”. I think Dune falls into this one, hard. Dune is an epic saga spread across the galaxy and across thousands of years, but it never feels like one. It feels like everything takes place across a few months, on maybe a whole continent. This is showing vs telling again - we’re told some numbers, but we don’t really feel them (or I don’t, at least). Sorry. I don’t have a nice pithy finisher for this. It just kinda peters out, I’m afraid. Still, those are the three reasons that came to mind when I was writing this.

[@guderheinz]

Very good points, number 2 especially. Kudos!

[@Alsetman]

As a huge fan... Good points.

[@samwisegrangee]

"It's not nearly as clever as it seems to think it is." Exactly this. Starting each chapter with epigraphs that are at best trite platitudes really gets old. It often seems like regurgitated, sophomoric philosophy. Just tell a story and work in the best insights more naturally.

[@elonif4125]

I honestly have no counterarguments to these points. Really good analysis.

[@Perchumovic]

Yep. I'm pretty sure that the two biggest problems most people have are the writing style and the pretentiousness-not the ones mentioned by Quinn.

[@vojinvmilojkovic7622]

The reasons people dont like Dune Simple - *They never tried Spice Melange*

[@penelopegreene]

THE SPICE PATCH! Guaranteed to cure you of any other possible addiction!

[@metatronblack]

Spice is Life 😗

[@doom7ish]

Very simple indeed.

[@MikeHunt-xj5xf]

You mean acid?

[@doom7ish]

@Benjamin spice Coffee

[@currentofthesnake5348]

Herbert cannot build tension. One example is the scene with the assassination attempt on Paul. That's why I canceled the book. This was my second try after I tried it in my younger years.

[@RabbitShirak]

Current of the Snake Ah, so he has the same problem as David Eddings then.

[@caralineg6568]

even though i enjoy the book i agree. a lot of the scenes were like this. The assassination attempt, Leto's death, Harkonnen's death, and the book's end all have such odd pacing.

[@currentofthesnake5348]

@@caralineg6568 The First time as I read it, i think that another authors would build whole books about this assasination attempt. A little waste of potential so far.

[@fubaralakbar6800]

Duke Leto and Gurney were the most relatable characters in Dune.

[@alexanderjakubsen2198]

RIP. We hardly knew them.

[@stvbrsn]

Exactly what I was thinking when Q mentioned the relatability issue.

[@ataketesamuel9542]

Exactly

[@spitalhelles3380]

Vladimir Harkonnen

[@brayerkh]

@@spitalhelles3380 See a therapist, or something.. LMFAO

[@nocrtname]

I read dune after hearing it was a must read for sci fi, but I found it fairly simple and straightforward. I got to the end and I was like, “that’s it?” Never read past the first book.

[@vsaucemichaelhere3409]

I think it gets a lot more complex as the series goes on. But personally I was pleasantly surprised at how straightforward and exciting dune was. Any heady shit was pretty well contained.

[@syedaiman5705]

The first book is really easy to read, but book 3 and 4 are really complex and difficult to understand .

[@jlntpy1706]

First book is the most similar to a regular Sci fi trope. The other of Herberts books are a little bit more complex.

[@ashleighparker4623]

Honestly, Dune Messiah should have been Book 4 in the first Dune novel because the story really isn't complete until then (trying really hard not to give any spoilers)

[@CZpersi]

For me, Dune was like: "come for the fascinating desert world, stay for the philosophy." But my wife, while having enjoyed the first Dune book as it has more narative, struggled with the heavy philosophy of religion in the latter ones.

[@MariaVosa]

Dune was so unique in it's turning the Saviour narrative on its head but in a subtle way when it was first published. It's really intersting that two of the arguably greatest current fantasy writers, George R R Martin and Brandon Sanderson, also work along these parameters but that many people miss that becuase they take the premise on its face - expecting only the common tropes.

[@Bustermachine]

I think this might be a product of something else that Herbert was trying to avoid. And that was . . . He didn't want people to miss the entire point of the message that Charismatic leaders come with great danger by making that leader an outright villain. I think Quinn here has the right idea. Paul is most definitely not a Messiah. He is not the hero of a story. But he is definitely the protagonist. In order to get the point across . . . Paul has to be sympathetic to the reader. He has to elicit admiration from the audience. Otherwise you're not really portraying a charismatic person at all. In fact . . . You'd be portraying Faid-Rautha, a sociopath with good publicity. That creates the risk of fooling people into thinking the danger is obvious and contained only in the person of the charismatic leader when it's actually quite subtle and much more nuanced than merely an evil man who can convince you he is good. If it were that simple, the solution would be obvious. Kill the evil man. Problem solved. No, problem not solved. Paul sees for himself that even death will not change his path. He'll by Martyred and the Fremen will march anyways. Herbert's point about the danger of charismatic leaders has nothing to do with the quality of their charater or what they desire to do with power but about the deleterious effect that they have on people by inducing them not to question, not to think critically, not to examine and understand, and act on the larger motions that they are all unthinkingly participating in. Paul is, as a person, by all indications a genuinely good man. He is thoughtful and considerate to the people around him. He is loving to his true spouse Chani, and while showing no tenderness to Irulan as his wife, he does extend a great deal of sympathy and tolerance for her political plight. He tries to cultivate his subordinates, such as Stilgar, to understand the moral weight of their actions. On a personal level he is shown to value life. Paul is deeply traumatized by his taking of the life of Jamis and still remembers it clearly years later. He grieves for every time his friends see him less as a man and more as a god and wishes he could reliably reverse it. And he is horrified when he foresees the Jihad, even more so as each decision he makes trying to avert it only further hems him in to that path. He is constantly seen searching for some way out of the trap that is his own prescience. Paul is caught up in forces far larger than just himself. The 'tension' that has been building due to imperial stagnation. The great instinctive urge for a mixing of human genes across the stars. The consequences of the Missionary Protectiva turning him into something more than a man. Paul is the spark, but he is neither the reactants nor the catalyst in the resulting conflageration. It is these greater forces approached unthinkingly by the mass of humanity that makes a charismatic leader dangerous. Dune is not a critique about a person. It is a critique about people.

[@fargoflagrant7796]

quinn: "what's up guys it's Quinn again" me: "oh shit, it's Quinnegan"

[@eiyaz00]

Strange you just listed the reasons why I like Dune

[@mikesbookreviews]

Ha ha I was thinking the same.

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

x3

[@PpierrotT1]

Same hear, and the more i read them the more my favorite is god emperor of dune

[@dread-cthulu]

GEoD is by far the best book in the series.

[@Bustermachine]

Same. Though it does come with the obvious caveat that I'd hate it if all books were written in the style of Dune. Herbert's style is best appreciated in contrast. His descriptions are very bare and ascetic compared to other writers in the genre.

[@JerekBilbar]

Physical Descriptions are the BANE of my existence. I love reading, but my ADD always kicks in once a book tries to go “yes here’s alllll the facial features of the new characters and here’s the very specific geometry of the room” because it always just interferes with how my brain constructed the scene already. But poetic descriptions of landscapes that the mind can piece together in basically any way it wants? hell yea. So Dune has been perfect for me in that sense.

[@williamjameslehy1341]

I'm guessing you're not a fan of A Song of Ice and Fire, then. You could condense the entire five volume series down to a slim 200 page story if you take out all the descriptions of clothing/armour and food (spoiler alert: everyone is wearing oiled ringmail and/or boiled leather, and all foods are drizzled with honey and leave grease dripping down one's chin).

[@JerekBilbar]

Jacob Lehy I mean yuh I tried reading the first book and didn’t get very far. I like game of Thrones tho (don’t hurt me, I only really like the first 4 seasons) so I want to get though them eventually.

[@dread-cthulu]

I want a playground for the mind; not rigid, nitpicked descriptions of every tiny detail.

[@PandorasFolly]

My friend who was am avid scifi fan and published author loved the dune series once he was able to get an electronic copy. His problem were the names. He said of them, "They were almost like Tolstoy in their needless complications and variations." Once he got an electronic edition he just would press find and replace all when he came to a name he found bothersome.

[@JerekBilbar]

Jason Dossett I guess I can understand that perspective but growing up a Star Wars fan I guess I just got used to bullshit names

[@alexziegler465]

I'm reading it for the first time, started just over a month ago and I've made it to heretics now. I love it, but I have accepted I will not understand everything that happens, there is just so much, if I walk away with only the main plots I'm okay with that. It's a weird obstacle that I'm not used to, I'm used to books that are way more everything is on the surface, which Dune definitely is not.

[@Randleray]

While you are right about the point that Dune does not present everything to you, do not fall for the bullsh a lot of people tell you about Dune. There is only one plot and everyone with minimum reading-comprehension will get it ;) But aside the plot there is much material for deep thoughts if you like to do that. Just do not feel as if you missed something if you do not understand everything on the first run. Dune is for everyone and the beauty about it is that everyone will have fun reading it one one way or another. Do not listen to the gate-keeping elitists which will tell you, you might be to dumb or other nonsense about your post here, especially if they start with stuff like "you have to think and reflect on xyz". Just read it and enjoy :)

[@p.t.mchaineyman3235]

I have read the main 5 books on several occasions, each time coming away with something new that I failed to grasp from previous readings.

[@Randleray]

@@p.t.mchaineyman3235 That is actually true. But it might have to do with the fact that your thinking changes as you age. At least that was it for me. I am a very slow reader, so it took me almost 7 years to finish all 7 mainbooks plus a couple of Brian Herberts stuff. And as I started with the first book I had the idea of this exotic universe. But many things happen in 7 years so my comprehension along the last 3 books was a lot different from when I started. Thus I "discovered" other things along the way I would not if I had read the books in 2 or 3 years.

[@dread-cthulu]

@@Randleray it most definitely is for everyone. There are multiple philosophical/political viewpoints throughout the series and your hand isn't being held through it. It's meant to make you think. It's for everyone for that very reason, to make you think and question your reasoning.

[@greycross7911]

I tried reading Dune when I was in my early teens. I remember being so frustrated the first time because I could sense the amazing story within it, but I'd get about a quarter of the way through it and give up in disgust. I couldn't seem to get through the hundreds of pages that were needed to really set the foundation for the whole series. I'd get lost within the details every time and lose the story thread. I kept trying. In fact I tried at least a dozen times to get through the first book from beginning to end. In my 20's I finally managed it. Once I got past the first half of the book it started to open up for me and I grasped it. I think age also played into my not being able to get through it at a younger age. Now at 54 I can say that its one of my favorite series. I've read each book at least a dozen times and in fact am half way through Chapterhouse Dune at the moment. With the current crisis around the world I think I am actually gaining new insight into those final books because the old worlds are on the cusp of destruction also. I do think that Frank got better as a writer as he continued with the series. There are subtleties in the last two books that surpass anything in the previous four. Its worth trying to get through even if you hate the first books. Oh, I'd also suggest White Plague, a lesser known known work by Frank, as being very an eerie resemblance to our own world at the moment.

[@michaeledwards1644]

keep trying my friend

[@whismerhilll]

I too read the Dune cycle many times. An upper side to my ADD is that I get to re-experience some details 🙄. At 47, I can say that Frank's books are my favorite, Dune and his others as well.

[@mikebannwart2913]

i usually give up on the series about book 4 or 5 before the boredom kicks in on the series. read some of the newer stuff and liked it more but still didnt make me go lets keep reading just a hey that was neat but flawed too.

[@shankthebat8654]

While there's a bit of hyperbole, I thought this would be amusing. My dad, an avid reader of everything, but especially a SciFi fan going back to the Golden Age once described Dune thus: "A man takes out a dagger. There's 30 pages about the history of the dagger. Then the man puts it away." That was his summary of Dune. I love Dune, though it would be foolish not to admit that the chronicles have some flaws in them. I think that to be a Dune fan means embracing it, flaws and all, because the flaws make for just as much good discussion as many of the high points do. For US. For others, maybe not so much.

[@antuanclamaran1205]

Obviously Dune has flaws but I didn't understand your father's description. Is it a jab at the special Fremen dagger that initially seems very important but proves trivial ? If yes, I disagree because through that and other scenes, it's made clear how brainwashing pseudo-religious myths are twisted to extreme levels to end up with something wild yet powerful. It's then super hard to tame but if you manage to do it (convince the masses that you are godlike), then they are yours to do whatever you want.

[@rovertyesmar]

If he thinks Dune is too descriptive of things that seem trivial, I'd love to hear his opinions on Tolkien's writing 🤣

[@andrewh5568]

There is a battering ram in Lord of the Rings that has a name and a detailed history of its use in combat operations by Sauron's forces. Tolkien's notes were... Comprehensive.

[@Bustermachine]

@@andrewh5568 If memory serves me write, wasn't Tree Beard literally Tolkien poking fun at a friend after he complained about how Tolkien would spend pages describing a tree? Say what you will, the man had a subtle sense of humor.

[@dankyjoker]

No...that's Tolkien.

[@roccodebellis2946]

I love the ecological aspect, I get excited when they talk about the plants and animals on dune, they were brought in by the Fremen. All the flora/fauna they mention are native to my hometown of Las Vegas Nevada. When I read dune I look out the window at the Mojave desert and I almost wanna wrap myself in a robe and walk out into the desert.

[@roccodebellis2946]

Except for the saguaro cactus, that’s native to the Sonoran desert in Arizona/ Mexico.

[@starlightstarbright26]

I'm in Vegas too and it makes Dune so much fun to read sometimes because I relate to the desert environment!!

[@LazarusRemains]

It's sometimes described as being sci-fi's equivalent to The Lord of the Rings. Maybe people hearing that go into Dune expecting ethical heroes fighting a hopeless but righteous war for the cause of life. Expecting Paul to be like the galaxy's Aragorn. Maybe comparing it to Warhammer 40,000 might give people a better idea, as it's probably more famous than Dune presently. A far future humanity that is unrecognizable and byzantine, full of hints that humanity has lost more history than it remembers.

[@0d138]

@@Princess2Warrior *laughs in 40k*

[@trolldrool]

@@Princess2Warrior Yeah, and any *true* 40k fan, whether they've read Dune or not is fully aware of that. The lore of 40k used to be pretty barebones really, meant only to provide context for why the miniatures you spent months painting should be fighting the miniatures on the other side. And most of it could be summarized as "Whatever the biggest Frank Herbert nerds in the UK at the time liked the most from the Dune novels."

[@vivecthepoet36]

@@Princess2Warrior I'd say Warhammer 40,000 is partially dune, partially Starship Troopers, and partially Conan/Lovecraft, with the violence and cynicism dialed up to 11.

[@sahamal_savu]

I first picked up a copy of Dune in a bookstore about 20 years ago and read that Arthur C. Clarke quote on the back cover "I know nothing comparable to it except Lord of the Rings." I instantly bought it. I had been obsessed with all things Middle Earth from a young age and had also been a big fan of science fiction. But I love LOTR for its complexity, its unique use of languages, its borrowing of mythical narratives. There is so much more to Tolkien's masterpiece than magical rings and a righteous war, as you put it. The same applies to Dune in that people can easily fixate on the spice and the messianic story of Muad'dib, but it's true value lies within the depth that Frank Herbert so eloquently displayed in his storytelling.

[@hokorhokkus]

Dune, LOTR & WH 40K.... all are so good and crazy.... i cannot compare each other

[@gruberjens4354]

I think, a big reason is a misunderstanding regarding the genre of the book. It is said to be the best SF book of all time. But I always feel like it's a SF and fantasy hybrid with much more elements of fantasy than SF. Creating a very unique atmosphere and concept. Someone who is into Asimov for example, will have extrem difficultys with dune. When I recommend the book to others, I always make sure they really know what to expect from it. And also I recommend it as audio book. Much easier to digest.

[@gruberjens4354]

@fluoxy L. What nope?

[@Serpentrose]

I started reading, and enjoying Asimov when I was a kid. I also like Dune. Both were on the bookshelves and available for me to read when I was a kid.

[@Bustermachine]

​@Wednesday Y'see, the thing about this to me is that it comes down to the definition of Scifi and the definition of fantasy. I'm not saying you're not entitled to dislike Dune, you absolutely are, but your comment poses an interesting question to me. How do we define scifi? For that matter, how do we define fantasy? To me the broadest acceptable definition is something like 'Science Fiction is a genre that seeks to accentuate or predict trends in science and technology in order to tell predictive stories about the future and/or in order to examine the human condition'. Many other definitions risk getting caught up on aesthetic. Clearly not every story with laser guns and space ships is really scifi rather than simply a story utilizing an aesthetic. I don't believe Herbert was in any way interested in creating a predictive future. The sciences he describe exist as story conceits. But then, Asimov wasn't trying to create a predictive future with Foundation either, even though much of its story is founded on prediction, ironically. Its setting is cast so far into the future specifically to generalize the narrative, to divorce it from making unfounded associations with the contemporary world that might muddy its message. So too with Dune. So we're left with the later defintion. But in that case . . . Dune is most certainly science fiction as well. It's simply science fiction that examines the human condition through life sciences and sociology rather than through direct application of engineering and physics.

[@ChristmasLore]

Never cared for definitions of genre, at all. (And literature was my major). For me it comes down to pure, sheer enjoyment. Also, to me Asimov and Dune felt especially enjoyable, both series, because, if I had to classify them in any way, they were philosophical sci-fi. Watch Quinn's take on 'Is there Magic in Dune"? To me and many others, there isn't. It feels like you're mistaking Dune for the cheap Western take of Star Wars. That's truly "sci-fantasy" for you. It's a popular opinion, I get it, it's just really not mine.

[@angellover02171]

I think GRRM said its just "the furniture rules" dune is set on many worlds so it's Sci Fi.

[@tabbysmithfield3794]

The reason God Emperor was one of my favs was the thought of Herbert writing from the point of view of a God. 32 yrs ago or so when I first read it I was only intellectually capable of understanding so much. Growing up and getting older, every time I re-read it; I understood a little more. I guess it’s that way with most everything. I was capable of pushing through things I didn’t necessarily understand. But GEOD made me realize that there was a writer way above most that I read.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

At 32? Maybe it explains why as a 16 years-old I felt like a lot of things went over my head.

[@tabbysmithfield3794]

Another random Tristan no, 32 years ago. And I should have said 34, I just threw out a quick number. I just turned 50 but I first read the dune series at 15-16 yrs old. Quite a bit went over my head but I liked the visualization it conjured in my imagination anyway. I have the full set and I don’t know how many times over the years I’ve read them. But I understood more and more each time I did. I also had the habit back then of writing words down that I didn’t know and looking them up. I wanted to know, I didn’t just leave it.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

@@tabbysmithfield3794 Oh ok.

[@Oldkingcole1125]

GEoD made me drop the series and I basically never drop a series when I am that far in.

[@mswi2650]

Matthew Cole GEoD was very preachy and repetitive. I swear Leto repeated the same ideas of philosophy politics and religion all throughout the book, but just slightly reworded. It got so boring to read. It was a slow burn too with almost no action happening until the very end. I was so suprised at how little actually happened in that book compared to other books such as Chapterhouse and children of dune.

[@timothythorne9182]

I just started it and can't seem to put it down

[@brettaspivey]

Everyone loves the first book, it just slows way down after that.

[@Bustermachine]

First books pacing is good even though it's page count is a bit of a door stopper. Dune Messiah is also not exactly a crawl. To be fair I'm pretty its the shortest of the books and serves more as a bridge to children. They do get heavier from there though.

[@marcmcvey1844]

I really enjoyed them. My friends were reading them back in the 80s and Recommended them to me. I didn’t read much then. It wasn’t until about my 40s I started heavily reading. To be honest, I’m glad I waited. I think as a teen some of the topics of politics and religion would have been lost on me. (Not everyone of course, but me, definitely)

[@WildSeven19]

This video is kind of a relief. I thought I was reading it wrong because my experience was so different to what I had expected, given Dune's legendary status. All of the things you mentioned were the main critiques I had. It can be very hard to get into. It's still worth reading though. By the end of each book, I realise that I've really enjoyed it as a whole.

[@gracefutrell1912]

As much as I like dune I’m not gonna lie there’s some parts of it that get me mad 😣

[@marykate1524]

As someone who just finished reading Dune for the first time a few days ago, I can understand why some readers may not enjoy it. Personally, the closest reading experience I can compare it to is when I recently read The Silmarillion for the first time, in that it is a very dense and heavy read to digest that I wouldn’t necessarily say should be read for pleasure, though that is not to say that I disliked either of them. More that I feel that the best way to enjoy them is to really dig into them on an analytical level, perhaps even doing further research to properly understand. I’m a current college student, and I would kill for my school to have a class just on the Dune saga just so that I could more properly understand and consume it. But still, I did really enjoy Dune, and after a few lighter books to give my brain a break, I plan on jumping into Dune Messiah soon and I’m really grateful that I learned of this series through your channel Quinn. Thank you!

[@ismata3274]

Yes! Silmarillion and dune needs the same style of going through it. One may even call it reading a novel too.😉 Though it's not.

[@freddythescout]

I read the series in High School and loved it but didn’t really “get it” until I re-read it in my early 20’s. Now I feel every time I read it I catch something new, or interpret something differently.

[@aperson22222]

Lack of Description: Doesn't really bother me, but you're right. It wasn't till I was already well and truly hooked that I began perusing Dune-related media that included images of people and things, and in many if not most cases, they looked nothing like what I'd pictured. I'm not someone who really tries to picture what I'm reading (unless maybe what I'm reading is based on something with whose appearance I'm already familiar, such as spin-off media for a TV show or movie, or a historical fiction book about real-world figures). But yeah, I can see where that would be an issue for others. Unrelatable characters: I guess that's a subjective judgment. Just about every character verges on the superhuman in at least one area of his or her life, but in other areas they're pretty normal. At least I found this for the ones I was really interested in anyhow. I'd probably have been hard pressed to find any sort of empathy for, say, a Guild Navigator, but I never tried. I remember clearly how nervous Paul was the first time he tried to hook a sandworm on his own. It was a very normal and ordinary anxiety. (The hooking of a sandworm isn't an ordinary activity, but he reacted to it the way I've reacted to a number of more realistic situations in which I've found myself, where I have to put a recently-learned skill to the test in such a way that I won't be protected from the consequences of my mistakes.) There are lots of analogous situations like that for most of my favorite characters. As for the most alien character of all, the God Emperor, I won't claim there's anything in him to which I can equate a real-world experience of mine. But I think the shifting of PoVs in his book helps a lot: We see him as others see him, and then we peer into his own mind, and realize how unlike their preconceptions he is. We realize how hurt he is to be branded The Tyrant, but that he continues to accept the awful burden of that reputation and even encourages it because he knows it's necessary to ensure human survival. Complicated Universe: I think this is what defeated me the first time I tried to read it. I wanted to understand the story in a top-down way: I wanted to be able to place each little vignette directly into an overarching understanding of the whole society. But that society was in flux, so that was a losing game. To that end I actually read the appendices and glossary first, then read about the Reverend Mother's visit to Paul's room for the gom jabbar test. Yes, it left me confused. I got about halfway through the book before realizing I didn't really understand what was going on. I set it down intending to come back to it when I had more time to process it fully. I lost the copy, and six years later I bought a new one and started fresh. This time I took a more bottom-up view: I started simply by following the fortunes of this small family, and expanded my understanding of the story to accommodate broader trends only as they impacted Paul and his parents and the few supporting characters in their orbit. This made the book digestible, though I'd be lying if I didn't say it was still a challenge. Too Philosophical: I feel like the story is very multi-layered, and that any given reader is free to explore certain layers while disregarding others. I'm sure there are meanings I've never engaged with at all. I think the story is exciting enough in most places (not all) that I wouldn't say it _suffers_ for the sake of authorial ax-grinding. If I felt otherwise I would certainly hate the book, no matter what ax was being ground.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

I skipped the big chunck explaining the world and hopped to figure out as I go. It worked surprisingly well.

[@MackeyDeez]

The Dune series gave me an insight into political intrigue and how social engineering works. Most people just aren't into political nuances and intrigue

[@geoffreybrockmeier3765]

hmm... now I'm more interested in giving it a try. I didn't know the story discussed these things much.

[@AloisWeimar]

its more Anthropological Fiction then Science Fiction, how humanity changes in a marco sense over long spans of time.

[@DJHastingsFeverPitch]

Geoffrey Brockmeier reading it, it seems really obvious that GRRM was heavily inspired by Dune. The first part of the Novel at least has a very ASOIF Westeros flavor to it. Noble houses, political machinations, grey characters, the nature of power and money, etc.

[@doncorleole2356]

@@DJHastingsFeverPitch the head of the main family (at least at the beginning) is ordered by the king to go to a place where he knows he’s not safe and dies. Also I think the similarities between Kwitsatz Haderach and the three eyed raven are obvious

[@darnellmajor9016]

Oh how grown-up of you Chad! So mature!

[@kcconnor2636]

The lack of focus on tech is in keeping with the world-building, due to the Butlerian Jihad. The focus on the mind is critical to the world, given that the most powerful weapons are from the competing schools of philosophy and the act of manipulation. Dune is a triumph in the study of motive, countermotive, and mass incentive.

[@michaeledwards1644]

agree, tech is nothing

[@ukyoize]

@@michaeledwards1644 go live in a cave then.

[@michaeledwards1644]

@Sean Francis Waters Lancaster i don't, i've dealt with pain that kills the average man and i'm against tech that keeps evolving for no reason , not tech that helps create modern medacine..they already have the cure for cancer but they can't cure it since it makes them so much money

[@michaeledwards1644]

@Wednesday why, do you like the way the world is going now..i'd prefer an alternate reality where humans actually get smarter, not the tech..or do you want computers to do everything including flush the toilet for you

[@kcconnor2636]

@Wednesday Psychology is no less a science than Geology, Astronomy, or Physics. Dune is a delving of the Inner Mind.

[@benwoodruff1321]

Dude, I just love your channel. I found it about 6 months ago and I feel I have finally caught up. Please keep up the great work.

[@beebopsnosering]

Yo Quinn! Love the videos man. I’ve read through God Emperor and def have had some questions answered watching your stuff. Keep it up!

[@replaygeorge]

I could not relate with some of the characters as well, but when I read the book for the 1st time, I felt it was unique, so much different than anything, even though I could see the similarities with the Arab culture, the feudal system of the middle ages, and so on. The books are great. You need to update and say that it takes time to truly appreciate these books. Also reading more helps with this too :)

[@PS-it1dm]

I fell in love with Dune series after last December. I finished with Chapterhouse almost two months ago. Dune series from Frank Herbert is just so great. I watched the Jodorowsky documentary film, then Lynch film and soon the Syfy miniseries and plan to watch the Villeneuve film too. I just love Dune even though it has been only couple months since I got into it. Thank you for these videos. Dune helped me to get back into reading and also helped me to study and focus on biology. The sleeper has awakened.

[@shineswillinsteve2350]

Great video! Helped me discover your channel, which really makes me want to finally get around to reading the Dune books!

[@Thiborfirenz]

hi quinn i recently listened to the dune audiobook and i loved it! and the reason i read it was because of videos i saw on your channel, so basically the reason i read it was because of you! and i would just like to say a very big thank you. so THANK YOU QUINN!

[@Stogdad1]

While I love Dune, I think it's greatest weakness is that there is not a single ounce of humor. This lack of such a basic and essential human element counts as its biggest flaw.

[@OperatorOscillation]

I thought Paul had kind of a deadpan sense of humor. "I've got my binoculars, so we'll get a good look at the place where we'll die."

[@francescopassero8369]

This is why I think the film will be hardly very successful, in terms of $. Also, this is why I'm personally excited for it. A blockbuster movie without Disney humor? PLEASE, YES.

[@Bilboswaggins2077]

Idk man I thought Gurney just cracking out his baliset in serious moments was humorous. I don’t think it was intentional, but the Baron’s character was so outlandish that I chuckled a few times at his descriptions

[@Bustermachine]

@@francescopassero8369 You mean Marvel Humor? Which is really just warmed over Joss Whedon humor run through a couple decades of refinement at this point.

[@francescopassero8369]

@@Bustermachine I actually enjoyed the first Avenger movie, when Joss is at his best it's a blast to watch. But the majority of the other films are FAR from that, if we exclude James Gunn's work with the Guardians. The last Spider-Man movie was a disaster.

[@TheMateriaalkunde]

"The plans behind the plans behind the plans behind the plans....... Some dislike because they quit after the first layer of plans. Others dislike for they feel uncomfortable with politics, where exactly the same situation suddenly becomes evident..

[@yarpen26]

To be fair though, Herbert went way too far in Children when it comes to "feint within a feint within a feint" business. The plot threads are just so crazily convoluted in this book, I can't imagine how any of the protagonists can follow them without a handy flowchart around. It's no wonder the Sy-Fy show kept things as simple as possible.

[@Blztrls]

@@yarpen26 lol, I'm re-reading Children right now and I've given up trying to decipher all the plots within plots. I think you might need to be on Spice to be able to grasp them. I'm just following the action to see how the plots play out without trying to understand them in advance. It got easier to read once I made that decision.

[@yarpen26]

​@@Blztrls So far, God Emperor is my favorite sequel primarily because it's free from the one glaring flaw that troubles this whole cycle from the very first installment and which I think is the primary reason why the plot is so easy to get lost in: too many damn characters that are too damn similar to one another (always helps when not every single one of them is a third year philosophy student, too). God Emperor was the first book that actually kept the cast somewhat concise and I hoped to God that was the step in the right direction. Unfortunately, I'm reading through Heretics now and Herbert seems to be back in his ugly business, casting about a million Bene Gesserit your way and expecting you to actually remember which one is which and which planet each of them is on.

[@spIette]

I just started reading the first book (and that's partly thanks to you). I enjoy it very much so far, but can also see how this is not for everyone. I think you summed it up well in this vid.

[@michaelromain7211]

Ayyyyyyyeeeeee!! Very intresting stuff and cool editing bruh! Keep it up and stay up bruh!

[@glencullinanan505]

Dune should be compulsory high school reading across the globe.

[@waadfrelle]

aight, except the globe part :)

[@CZpersi]

Not in my country (Czech Republic). I remember times, in which teachers tended to see sci-fi and fantasy as a "low literature". The so-called "classical literature" is still preferred in many education systems, independent on the quality or relevance of these 18th and 19th century works. Dune was mentioned by a single sentence in our classes on history of literature and it was clear that the teacher does not know, what is she talking about. The tides are turning as younger teachers are introduced into classrooms, but it will take much more time for works, such as Dune to get the recognition, they deserve.

[@murderouskitten2577]

That means 80% of Kids dont pass highschool 😉

[@Kage-jk4pj]

Everything I read in school, because i was forced to read it. I HATED. You'd just be creating more haters. Who would have liked it if they had just discovered it themselves.

[@murderouskitten2577]

@@CZpersi Yeah, it is the same in my county ( Latvia). They force us to read localy produced shit like Rainis, a talantless "writer". Compering to him even the most anoying clasic litereture is like action adventure of highest quality.

[@AesculapiusPiranha]

I remember trying to read it in Jr High and being annoyed by the author's overuse of the word "thing."

[@SMjerZgirl]

Your channel (and the upcoming movie of course) made me reread Dune again. I love it just as much as when i first read it.

[@waadfrelle]

are there people who don't like Dune? That is weird.

[@Bonkikavo]

Maybe people just don't like fantasy.

[@hungarianbeast]

Same here, I heard of many people that actually don't know Dune, but those who don't like it, strange. I can understand the sequels, but the OG is beloved by all imo.

[@tomhutchins7495]

I read the books many years ago, in my teens. I definitely didn't feel like I understood the series. I sort of enjoyed the first, couldn't really get into the others and ended up reading them just because I had started. Never felt any reason to give the series another try, but if there is anything that could get me excited to read it, it would be Quinn explaining what I'm missing out on.

[@waadfrelle]

@@tomhutchins7495 me just as you, many many years ago, but I re-reas them all as soon as a new part was published and book 1 I have probably read 20 or more times. What I especially liked was what our lovely host here says: the descriptions and even some characters leave so much for your imagination. The story grabbed me and never let go. The philosophical parts became more clear to me after many reads. The Litany of Fear is one that the world can use now more than ever. Because the Virus of Fear has been sowed....

[@MikeHunt-xj5xf]

I like Dune, but the characters are just faces drawn into planks of wood.

[@darrene8565]

I find it interesting that we have both positive and negative reactions here without massive hate being passed around. I find that to be quite impressive! (I voiced my opinion on The Walking Dead once because I thought it was going downhill and was bum-rushed by a bunch of rapid TWD fans who don't like opinions! :D )

[@seanwhite1104]

I recently re-read Dune and found that I didn't like it nearly as much as I had when I originally read it more than 20 years ago. A couple of the things you mentioned, like the philosophy, are still among the things I like best about the book. And the world building and lore are phenomenal. I especially enjoyed the history and added flavor in the appendices and how they added depth to the story of the different factions. But the one thing I found most off putting that isn't in your list was the pacing of the book. You mentioned that the action, or lack of it, is one thing many take issue with and while I understand that, the action itself wasn't so much an issue for me. More, it was the lack of explanation and pacing leading up to and following some of the more important action scenes. For example, there was very little in the way of explanation given in the lead up to the first knife fight. It just sort of happened and everyone involved seemed to just stoically accept it. I can understand that from the Fremen perspective and even Paul and his mother's, but not the reader. The reader is just sort of expected to figure it out. The same was true with the fight at the end. There was no build up or explanation, it just sort of started. Paul just starts disrobing when Feyd shows up, like this is what's obviously about to happen and everyone around seems completely unfazed by him just standing up, taking his clothes off, and then killing a man. And then having a normal conversation with the Emperor about what will happen next, like nothing had just happened. The pacing and structure of these scenes really left me feeling like I was supposed to put pieces together for the author where few to no breadcrumbs had been left out to lead me in that direction. Another example is the scene right after Duke Leto's death. The next scene begins with Paul in mental anguish and something's obviously happening, but it's not really built up to or explained well. We're just left to figure it out from the very few bread crumbs that we're given.

[@frostboomba1462]

@fluoxy L. that's retarded to say.

[@yarpen26]

Even fans of the original book often say that the ending feels rushed and overall like Herbert didn't really know how to wrap things up. I especially dislike the final sentence about wives and concubines, as if Jessica and Chani's role in history were the ultimate point of focus. Just a really weird way to end your story on a messianic rise to power I guess. Also, Herbert's foreshadowing is hit and miss, most particularly in Children, where two huge plot point (Jacurutu and Leto's transformation) were basically asspulled at the last moment, having had little to no build-up beforehand.

[@williamacosta8263]

I am starting the third book thanks to you after finishing the first two. Hoping the fourth book is as good as you mention!

[@Cutie_Chik]

Really enjoyed this video. Thanks for the update

[@urulai]

The listing is important I think, and tells us what people tend to want out of their stories rather then letting the story be what it wants to be. The handful of novels I've put down in my own time were all because I felt the story was disrespecting my time and just meandering around the authors fetishes. (looking at you mister Banks)

[@adambriton5394]

Imma guess there hasnt been a new movie to make people pretend they always liked it

[@sahamal_savu]

Just wait until next year, just wait :)

[@Toddler.Titles]

Quinn, bro, I have been a viewer for many years now. I just want to send good vibes your way. You have come so far and truly stepped up your game in so many ways! From simplifying complex storylines, critical reviews, sharing your knowledge, thoughts and passionate feelings on these IPs that so many of us love, to now creating your own IPs, you are truly producing amazing media. Stay safe, stay motivated and please keep sharing!! Thank you, you are greatly appreciated.

[@plasticfrog4533]

I just got the first dune book, I’m so excited to read it! These videos got me really into it, thanks so much

[@real_fjcalabrese]

Dune is really cerebral, and some folks just want simple escapism. I love the Dune books, but sometimes I feel like consuming something else. Personally I love the lack of detail it allowed me to use my imagination.

[@nineteenfiftysixyo]

it's so tiddyz that so much of tech is so low-tech. They still use stabbing weapons and poisons. Lasguns and atomics are mentioned but those are more of disadvantages than using them. Either the feedback or mutual destruction with lasguns and shields or with family atomics. When paul's and his guard's eyes melt out of their head when such weapons are used and the fear that it could melt into the planets core. Damn I think I saw askit with jedi losing their lazer sword and it melting into the core of a planet. BUT paul didn't need eye balls to see. Unlike new hope cool hand luke's rudimentary space bugs in the blood stream training with sir guinness. Didn't match up to Paul seeing past-present-and maybe future

[@sid2112]

My escapism requires depth, otherwise my magnificent brain wouldn't be distracted enough to achieve immersion. Take note, folks. THAT'S how you act condescending.

[@videogamebomer]

@@sid2112 what your point

[@sid2112]

@@videogamebomer I would imagine that I was in a snarky mood three weeks ago. Just a guess.

[@brokeneyes6615]

Quinn: “The characters of the series tend to be very enlightened” The Beast: “...Tank brain smash!” Pointing the one dunce out aside I do agree with your assessment. I do think that had Frank Herbert provided a little bit more detail to the world, which I think his Son tried to do by providing origins for the organizations and customs, thr story might have been a little more accessible to a larger audience. As an example I thought it was a nice touch we learned in the prequel saga that the water chit’s the freemen women weave into their hair as a sign of being married in fact had “assholish” beginning that was later subverted to what it became by the bandits. Interesting proposal on how a enduring tradition could have its origins in what amounts to a mock towards tyranny. Heck, it’s even understandable how origins like that could easily be lost to time, becoming something you do because it became cultural for your group because the bandit leaders girlfriend wanted to prove she was both worth it and wanted to stick it to her old tribe

[@mattmorehouse9685]

What about Reverend Mother's method of figuring out if Paul is messiah worthy? Trial by ordeal! Cause ability to withstand physical pain automatically equals political acumen and intelligence. No need to get into genetics and whether Paul has the right genes.

[@brokeneyes6615]

Matt Morehouse b-b-but hw out his hand in the woman’s box and didn’t die. Every 15 year old knows when a sixteen year old does that their the leader! 😕🤔😂

[@nickmonks9563]

Respectfully disagree. I picked up A LOT from the subtext of the original novels, and more so after re-reading them. Having details spoon fed to me rob me of the opportunity to consider how these things may have developed and build that reality in my head from the clues left strewn about. Essentially, Frank let us *live* in that world, not just visit it as tourists with a detailed road map. Much like the real world, there's a lot of information that needs to be garnered from context...and *context* is central to understanding the series. From the Bene Gesserit's plan, to how Mentat's calculate probability, to Paul's own prescience. It's all *almost* supernatural, but with enough context it becomes plausible that humans could evolve to accomplish those feats merely with their minds.

[@JonathanBarOr]

Thank you Quinn for your dune videos! I really like your analysis of the Dune saga, especially the god emperor (my personal favorite in the Dune saga).

[@PaulSpurgeon]

I've heavily consumed your Dune videos, and I love what you've done. I just want to say thank you.

[@manmadegod100]

I find all the characters are two-dimensional tropes only created to forward a desired narrative. But I've loved the story he tells.

[@Randleray]

Thats what I thought most of the time during the first book about the Harkonnen. It is just an evil "race" to have a rightout evil entity in the first book. It got much better with the second book.

[@ddmagee57]

Quinn: I don't follow "technology is in no way central to the saga"?! Instantaneous space travel, shield technology making edged weapon fighting central, shield technology negating nuclear weapons, AI technology causing the Butlerian jihad and mentats, biological manipulation via the Bene Tleilax ...need I go on?

[@francescopassero8369]

He refers to the fact that computers and robotics are not PRESENT in the narrative. Characters don't interact with robots or artificial intelligences, which really was the whole point of sci-fi back in the day.

[@Bustermachine]

@@francescopassero8369 There's also the fact that, at least in Herbert's original work, it's very clear that the motives of the Jihad are far more philisophical. It was a rebellion against a technocratic society stifling and stagnating humanity rather than literal evil robot Empire of literal terminators trying to snuff out or enslave mankind.

[@Tumeputa]

Thanks for the morning dose of ideas. Have you considered tackling Peter F Hamilton? I'd like to hear your take on the Night's Dawn Trilogy starting with Reality Dysfunction.

[@williamberry4597]

A lot of the reasons you listed line up with why I'm enjoying reading the Dune books. I'm on Children of Dune currently. And yeah, it can be confusing. But I'll read them again and watch your videos.

[@Reverandfatdave]

This video was a lot longer than I expected since the answer is "because they are wrong."

[@AvanToor]

Okay, remind us to NOT give you any imperial throne...

[@Reverandfatdave]

@@AvanToor I will do no such thing sir.

[@AvanToor]

dmn, now I'll have to remember your name :P

[@MagusMarquillin]

@@AvanToor aaaaAHHH UNACCEPTABLE!!

[@zannaifacedancer5915]

We would be supporting the wrong tyrant.

[@Manuel-px9lc]

Reading these comments is painful. Can you guys stop making people feel bad for disliking something? Different people have different opinions, different tastes, not everyone's going to have the same opinion as you. That doesn't make them any less intelligent. Some people just want something else out of their reading experience. And before you all come at me saying I'm one of those people who simply is too stupid to understand the Dune series - I have not read it yet. Quinn definitely sparked my interest though, which is why I have the first book on my shelf and I'm excited to explore this work of literature myself.

[@zhazhagab0r]

I have read Dune. I love Dune. I agree with your comment 100%. I had no idea there were such toxic Dune fans out there.

[@someinteresting]

@Issu The Red Panda Well, Quinn has made a very nice video. So like him.

[@ts25679]

@@zhazhagab0r Gatekeeping my dudes. When some people find treasure they want to share it with others, other times they want to hoard it for themselves. The more people identify or admire a thing the more protective they can become. Exclusive fan clubs of "true believers" become cult-like in their fanaticism and draw up rules that define "us" and "them" and they are of course the sole arbiters of truth. "No true (comic/movie/video game/music/etc) fan would (enter spurious condition here), you're not one of us".

[@zhazhagab0r]

@@ts25679 I wonder why this tendency is so strong among certain works but not others. I see a similar tendency in the Star Wars fan community, for example, but not with some other masterpieces of literature like Dickens or Austen. I am inclined to think it might have to do with teens with self-esteem issues wrapping their identity up in the books or movies they like.

[@zhazhagab0r]

@@BradBolinIt's not really about the disagreement. I don't really care who does or doesn't like the things that I do. It's about the insinuation that people with different tastes are objectively inferior. "You don't like this so you have bad taste" is a world apart from "You don't like this so we have different tastes." The former is very off-putting.

[@PillowWillow007]

Every problem discussed in this video sum up why I love Dune! I rented the English version of book 1 (as I wanted to expand my vocabulary, so reading the Estonian translation was a no-no) literally a month ago and now I'm trying to get my hands on Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, but this quarantine has screwed me over! Greetings from Estonia.

[@davidkieltyka9]

I was introduced to Dune in a philosophy class! It was listed in the syllabus as “recommended but not required.” At some point after the semester started the prof asked how many of us had read or were reading it. Nearly every hand went up, so we ended up covering it at length. Fantastic class!

[@Androrac]

The original Dune is my favorite novel of all time, but my enjoyment of the series severely decreases with the sequels.

[@MrKOLCOO]

I like Herberts style, I red all the Franks Fine saga. And currently I am reading some books from 40K universe whiich is heavily inspired by Dune.

[@kaiftintoiwala6414]

Thanks for ur videos on Dune Really appreciated ur work

[@jostpuur]

My biggest problem with Dune Universe is that sandworms violate laws of physics. It wouldn't really be possible for gigantic beings like that to move under the sand. The pressure and friction would be immense. Also it doesn't make sense that sandworms cannot use their strength to climb out of the sand onto rocks. It is also unpleasant that Spice appears to have genuinely supernatural effects -- not only consciousness enhancing.

[@yarpen26]

I disliked how the way to ride a worm is by exposing its segments' inner organs to sand. But they keep eating sand all the time and it's stated explicitly in the first book that if you tear apart a worm, separate segments will in turn form smaller worms, basically making every segment a worm mouth.

[@MikeHunt-xj5xf]

Describe a character from Dune without mentioning what their role in the books are or what they look like.

[@ismata3274]

😳 do that about any other book character? Cersei is..... Crazy? Yes that can be said. But that's it. Jessica doesn't follow all the rules and love blinds her, so does Jaime, and that's it. Alia is crazy too. She has more reasons to be though.

[@Fanny-ge6ge]

Whaaaat? Cersei is much more complex than just "crazy". She suffered her whole life from her comparison with her twin brother, who could do what he wanted as a boy/man. Then her little brother comes to the world, killimg her mom in the process, and ending up a dwarf, so she hates him with all her guts. Her father is very strict and shows no affection to his children, she only has her twin, grows closer to him and they fall in love. After the war she is married to the new king, she is very attracted to him but he rejects her because he is still in love with another woman who was killed. He is an alcoholic brute who humiliates her. She starts to hate him. Then she has three children with her brother, but she heard a prophecy saying she would loose them all, so she is very protective of them, way too much. She hates her life, and they are the only things that bring her joy. There are many more things, and sure she became a bit crazy with all that happens to her throughout the story, but she is not what you would call a "crazy character".

[@TheVestibulian]

Yo Quinn! I've finally finished the Dune saga. Having subscribed for a few months, now I can dig in without spoilers. Personally I think the aesthetics of technology is what makes Dune so timeless. When you look at "classic" movies like Die Hard, these kinds of movies and stories tend to keep their charm in storytelling, but the technology of the time only serves to drag them down. Dune is isolated from that because of the depiction of its technology - A reader can easily imagine ornithopters as a parallel to helicopters during the time in which the original books were written (Hueys during the Vietnam War), and can conceptualise them as being something completely technologically new with no common understanding in society - But that is the only technology Herbert mentions that has a parallel in modern society. Talking about concepts such as Tleilaxu tanks and the purpose of monogamous bonding (as his later novels do) brings into question the modern practises of in-vitro fertilization, stem-cell research and eugenic augmentation, and none of these things has reached the forefront of scientific enquiry - yet. I loved Herbert's post-script to Chapterhouse, a tribute to his wife as she succumbed to cancer. The joys they shared throughout life are the things that Frank hopes she will be remembered for, and he immortalises her in his writing. It's a beautiful thing to read. As I finished the story largely non-plussed by the fates of the characters involved, the understanding of why these characters were written the way they were, and the inevitable fate that they all shared, it was all explained largely in the post-script. Herbert's series is an amazing read and definitely worthwhile.Looking forward to getting into Brian's works, and seeing what they have to offer to the Dune universe.

[@oasismike2905]

I gave four of the trilogy books to a close friend, hoping to share what'd been a powerful experience, but she said even though she tried, she couldn't read them because of the negative vision of the future they portrayed. I was wondering if you'd spot-light Frank Herbert's book, "The White Plague." Probably not popular, certainly negative...but, it was a pandemic story where People felt powerfully protective of those they wanted to save. And, sheltering in place with older parents feels oddly similar.

[@atreacherouspath]

You are such a great presenter and so damn knowledgeable. I WISH you would do a deep dive into the Malazan Book of the Fallen series. Imo, Malazan is the fantasy equivalent to Dune.

[@mattmorehouse9685]

So the "enlightened" way of figuring out if a teen is fit for the role as messiah who will save humanity- Show up one day to his house unannounced and declare that he must put his hand in a box that simulates it being set on fire. As in burned to a crisp. Then threaten him with death if he doesn't quietly put up with what, from all information he has, is sadistic barbaric torture. Cause in a universe that has gone through the robot uprising and created human computers to replace said robots, the best way to tell if someone has the mental resilliency and intelligence to save humanity is a freaking ordeal. No need to study the structure of Paul's brain, or his genes. No need to see how he handles complex political situations or if he is a good speaker, or can integrate disparate people. Just simulate his hand burning to a crisp, that's the way to go. Couldn't be caused by a genetic insensitivity to pain could it? Maybe if Dune didn't take itself so seriously I could get it, but come on. These Bene Gesserit sound like Game of Thrones level sadists. As in Ramsey Snow. They really have connections all the way up a near galactic empire, but didn't see the kid they tortured turning against them. I guess they are politicians.

[@ukyoize]

This. Dune fans are so much up their own ass that one can use them as hoola-hoops.

[@matthewdietzen6708]

There's a tribe in South America that requires its warriors to endure 24 hours or more of excruciating pain from getting stung by poisonous insects woven into a glove. The warriors are expected to go through this ordeal up to 21 times over a period of years, maybe once a year. The purpose of the ordeal is to get them to confront protracted pain so as to eliminate their fear of it, as well as boost their immune system. They are not allowed to make a sound during the ordeal, although they are allowed to dance. You can look it up on KZbin. This would be yet another example where Herbert did not really invent anything, but rather took something from human history and transposed it into an imaginary future. Herbert was something of a historian, do Dune is actually as much about the past and present as anything else. The Bene Gesserit are well aware of the painful nature of what they do. They themselves suffer great pain and risk death when they go through the Spice Agony to become Reverend Mothers, just like any other aspiring shaman from human history going through a shamanic ordeal process.

[@mattmorehouse9685]

@@matthewdietzen6708 And your average sized modern nation could probably subjugate this warrior tribe, if they concentrated on it, without sadistic rituals. You sound like Kiroth, yammering that WH40k could beat every other fictional universe beacause "it's made for war." I like that universe, but just because a group goes through a massive amount of pain and macho ego stroking doesn't mean it's effective. I could brutalize 100 boys, put their hands in woven leaves full of bullet ants wait a while, then get rid of said gloves. What would I have? Probably a large number would be physical or psychological cripples, I doubt the rest would fare well against one squad of modern soldiers, what with crippled hands and all. Just because you put someone through a lot of pain does not mean you're being effective. Especially when it involves politics.

[@matthewdietzen6708]

@@mattmorehouse9685 you missed the point. It's not a pissing match where one fictional universe is better than another, but rather, it's about a fiction universe giving the author more creative freedom. He's making a comment on the brutality of human civilization. Also, modern civilization creates all kinds of cripples. In fact, many people in modern civilizations seek out archaic initiation rites to develop themselves, and thus a modern civilization is composed of such individuals. One example would be hunting, another would be experimenting with mind-altering drugs. Neither are needed to be a member of civilization, but people go through these ordeals anyway. In the book, Paul is given a variety of training so that he can pass these initiation tests and ascend to adulthood and personhood. The tests aren't administered to everyone, just a narrow subset of the elite. There's no mention of Feyd-Rautha passing a gom jabbar test. The whole point of the chapter is to slap the reader in the face with the scenario of a mother putting her son's life at risk to put him through an initiation process, which is actually pretty common throughout history.

[@matthewdietzen6708]

@@mattmorehouse9685 also, you write that the bullet ants would probably cripple a bunch of the boys, but the initiation has been done for generations, so presumably it has produced some desirable effects, or it would have been discontinued. People actually seek out these experiences to test themselves.

[@laurabryannan]

Late to the party here. I first read Dune in 1974 and fell in love; spent the years anxiously awaiting each new book. So why will this series never rise to the heights of Tolkien? Herbert died before he could finish it. This is the Dune series' most serious and insurmountable problem, IMHO.

[@astrinymris9953]

We fans of 'A Song of Ice and Fire' understand how you feel. 🤣🤣🤣

[@timmachin3830]

Lack of description is interesting, I noticed how much more descriptive Heretics is. I suspect that is because some of the locations on Gammu appear briefly and so require more insight. I agree though most of the books lack description, I think some of the artwork (as shown in the video) really helps on occasion.

[@GRH1013]

I get it. I attempted Dune the first time when I was 19 or so. It didn't take hold. Several years later however it was mesmerizing. I was compelled to read it, talk about it, think about it, & wonder at my initial disinterest. Now that I have started watching your channel, thanks to your Dune content, I am feeling the urge to re-explore the series.

[@necronhex]

It’s taken me years to get into the series as I aged and matured so did my understanding of the series. Because I was the few who thought it was a messiah story then realised it was conscious manipulation (that’s how I’m explaining it so there’s no spoilers)series which you really need to read three books in. So know it’s not for everyone why does it have to be......

[@theaansel8738]

I have read Dune and watched the film. Dune to me is like a highly intelligent mind alone that lacks social construct. As a reader I relate not just to the mind but to the many nuances that make me invest in characters. I somewhat understand what Frank Herbert wanted to put across but all this intelligence, philosophy and power feels disembodied. In conclusion I emotionally invested in the sand and was intrigued with spice.

[@Linklex7]

Recently started the first Dune book. I’m really enjoying it. Despite how huge it is, I have no problems reading it. Your videos do help with certain questions I have if the franchise. Thank you.

[@Drawnartist]

Hey buddy I saw the movie and it was so great! First movie I've seen since covid and it was so fun I freaking love the theater. I took my girlfriend who didn't know anything about it and she loved it too. I went and bought the first book the other day and I just thought I tell you that there are people out there getting into the books because of the movie and your channel.

[@AggelosKyriou]

Personally, I couldn't love Herbert's writing style. He does a lot of imaginary (or otherwise non-English) term-dropping from the very start without even stressing it with italics. Thus I found myself baffled because there are things I cannot possibly understand (since he doesn't shift the narrative to explain what these term mean). The omniscient POV is also an issue. Shifting POV's is a problem with modern readers that's why it has fallen out of general use although it had been the norm back in the day. Empathizing with characters presented by the POV of an omniscient narrator is simply harder.

[@benparke8190]

It does get explained by context, yeah he doesn't stop to hold your hand, but if you stick with it your not left in the dark.

[@Bilboswaggins2077]

I get that the big made up fantasy words can be confusing and feel annoying, but there is a handy appendix in some copies. I personally like that Frank Herbert doesn’t waste time explaining what things are. We’re immediately thrusted into a new universe and I like that it’s up to the reader to make sense of things. The characters already know their world

[@yarpen26]

Precisely the reason why Herbert's draft was rejected by just about 95% of all American publishing houses. Editors would write back to him explaining that the crazyass alien names dropped every second sentence made them feel like blowing their brains out.

[@whismerhilll]

The first time I read Dune, I think there was a 10-15 page lexicon at the end of the book.

[@MaoThe1st]

Yup, definitely the last one, for me. It feel like the entire books are a series of tedious philosophical rants. But when the nth random illiterate fremen gives you a profound speech about the nature of reality it hits my tolerance limit. And I hate the characters, who ironically have very little character. Most people in the books are bland and uninteresting, but pretentious a**holes. It's shocking how unlikable they are. Stilgar seems interesting. So does Irulan. The have personalities. But let's spend all our time with Paul, Leto II and the lady Jessica - the galaxy's least likable family. I am still going through the third book, partly out of respect for Quinn, but oh boy, does it feel like a chore. Messiah was mostly fine - I'll give Frank Herbert that, but Children is boring and Dune is just awful. The first book has terrible story development, terrible character development and terrible pacing. There - I said it. Bring all your hate. Rant over.

[@allensaunders449]

It's not a homework assignment if you don't like it move on to sonething you do like. I love dune and disagree with everything you said. But to each his own

[@mladen8127]

I like the books a lot, but i have to agree about the characters. When they're not paper thin and irrelevant, they are dull and interchangeable. The really intriguing characters barely get any scenes, and there are fewer of them in every subsequent book. My favourite has to be Malky. He has been doing it all too long, and happily calls out Leto's shit. A breath of fresh air. But he gets, what, one chapter?

[@Oldkingcole1125]

If you feel like that, then I recommend you stop with Messiah. God Emperor is worse on all the points that you mentioned. I stopped in the middle of GEoD because it was overwhelmingly boring philosophical rants Herbert never earned the right to waste my time with. This is all coming from a guy who read the Silmirillion twice by age 15.

[@elenasreadingcorner]

Same. I really wanted to like Dune, I've been postponing reading it for years, like keeping a dessert until the very end. I do like the world-building, I want to know more about it (Bene gesserit are interesting), check out more philosophical ideas and religious undertones, so I'm just watching Quinn's videos. But man, after reading Dune (and hearing from many that it's the best of the series) I surely won't be reading the following books. The characters were so fascinating in the beginning, and the more I read, the worse they became (fremen, what a collosal disappointment). All of them. I dislike that we hear every shitty thought every character has and the pacing, as you said, is bad, like really bad. The only interesting characters died by the middle of the book, though I think that's why they stayed interesting, Herbert didn't have time to ruin them. Which is so damn sad because there is so much material! It is an influential book though, I was having Star Wars flashbacks throughout it all.

[@MaoThe1st]

I find it much more interesting when I watch Quin's breakdown and analysis than reading the actual books. In the end I completed Children and I will move on to God Emperor (eventually), by I'm mostly reading out of OCD, than actual interest. I know Dune lovers are really dedicated but I read these books and feel like the only way you can like this was if you never read a book with good structure, story pacing and character development.

[@Martyr217]

I have the books on Audible as I can't sit still long enough to actually read a whole book, I like reading but I have to keep moving so I listen to Audible while walking or on the bus etc. and that has saved me a lot of frustration.

[@Momo-dv3ix]

Same. I read Dune but have been listening to the sequels and I think it's the only way I'd be able to get through them.

[@Scrubasteveable]

Late to the party. Very well put Quinn! I remember my first experience with Dune. I was a Star Wars kid and probably like most people my age, I was first introduced to Dune via the David Lynch movie. I was too young to appreciate even this much abbreviated version of the story. I thought it was very boring. Fortunately through media like these videos and just becoming more mature, I am now able to have a much greater appreciation for the novels and movies.

[@aaroncoffman7267]

I remember being 16 and one night cracking open ‘one of my dad’s old sci fi novels’. I just couldn’t put it down. I think I read the whole thing over 4 nights. Obviously I didn’t get much sleep that week. Been one of my favorites ever since.

[@theM4R4T]

I tried to get into it but stopped. And I really like the setting and the lore, but the reason for me, I think, is the way the story is told. You're thrown in this world and you're hit with politics and prophecies and all the fantastical things all at once and you're switching points of view from paragraph to the next. It really gets tiresome quickly, before you start caring about the story and characters. This is something I appreciate aSoIaF for. The first chapter could have easily been Bloodraven apparating all over Westeros through the Weirwoods and interacting with these mysterios characters like Quaithe and Marwyn the Mage and the Children of the Forest and trying to fulfil ancient prophecies. That would be overwhelming. Instead you get a small glimpse of the supernatural Others in the prologue, so you know they'll be important later on, but then there's no magic, no prophecies for a while and you're slowly introduced to the world (the most relevant locations like Winterfell, the Wall and King's Landing) and the characters one at a time (also the most relatable first like the Starks) and you learn of their lives and histories. And then as the story progresses the magic and the conflicts begin to climax and you learn of various schemes and conspiracies and the points of views also get progressively morally questionable/ambiguous/complex.

[@bonedoc4556]

Surprising you tired of the complexity when your analysis is the same. Maybe give it another try.

[@theM4R4T]

@@Princess2Warrior Great answer. *"You just dumb, Dune too smart for laypeople. Smart people get it, like me. I smart."* Just ignore everything I said. Maybe you couldn't *grasp* my comment, I didn't say it's because it's less intellectually-complex than Dune (I am pretty sure it's not), but because its contents are introduced more skillfully, that it actually makes me want to learn more. I'd finish and *grasp* Dune if my life depended on it, but that would feel like doing homework opposed to doing something I love.

[@arcilamatt]

Sorry you were attacked, our cult does not take kindly to "Heretics of Dune". Please drink this kool-aid...

[@Randleray]

@Princess2Warrior Yo... instead of talking to people having problems with a franchise you like, you attack them... seriously, I feel always ashamed for people like you if I share the same interest. How abou not being a stupid asshole? Or are you afraid someone not giving a shit about seemingly philosophical thoughts, might have fun with your beloved Dune other than you deem to be the right way?!

[@Randleray]

@Marat I hope you know to ignore people that attack you for not kneeing in front of their beloved franchise. I read both, Martin and Herbert and I would say they went for mostly different style of writing. Song of Ice and Fire is more about the physical world and problems of "normal" people while Dune is more about thoughts of individual people, so they require different narratives.

[@EvilElecBlanket]

You are absolutely right about number one when it came to me. I tried to read Dune several times when I was a teenager only to stop after fifty pages or so. I just couldn't picture "in my mind" what I was reading. After the Sci-Fi mini-series came out, I had a reference, and was able to read and really enjoy the book.

[@gelbadayah.sneach579]

I always warn people about these same things when recommending the series. It's a lot of "if you're into X, then you may enjoy this series." I've read the books multiple times over several decades and I'm still chewing on the content! The setting and characters are alien to us in a way that few pieces of speculative fiction ever dare to venture. I often feel as if the characters embody ideas and ideals more than they do actual people and that's why they often tend to be hard to relate to. As always, your videos are the best I've seen for Dune commentary. Truth suffers from too much analysis, but you always break it down just right; never stop!

[@Activated_Complex]

I can’t say I’ve discussed Dune with anyone who’s read it and hasn’t been enthralled by it. My main frustration is that so few people ever read beyond that first book. There are people I’ve been hounding for 10 years to at least check out Dune Messiah. You would think I was asking them to read the unabridged Count of Monte Cristo in the original French. Or Finnegan’s Wake in the original... whatever the hell that was.

[@aghostanimage]

Same thing people say about 40k. Oh and that it is expensive. Lol

[@0d138]

40K ain't cheap...my wallet is evidence...

[@birgittabirgersdatter8082]

Well, it *is* expensive.

[@treehouse318]

haven't read it yet, but it's still on the list. thank you for the video!

[@godver555]

After seeing one of your early videos on Dune I decided to read it. I read the first one through completely and after reading it and whilst I was reading it I just had a hard time. What I loved about it were the universe, the political aspects, and the vastly different characters. But what I did not like it the fact that it seemed like each chapter was building up to something grand and it didn't really. I hoped to get a better understanding of the Dune Universe but I didn't. Ultimately I enjoyed reading the chapters of the desert nomads and learning about their culture and how they want to transform the dessert into something beautiful. I am still really hyped for the movie because I think there will be a lot easier to focus on the cool visual aspects and the story will be more compacted which I would have liked in the original book.

[@0d138]

"The reason people don't like Dune" *Intellectual Me:* "Becuz smol brein 🧐"

[@vojinvmilojkovic7622]

0 D You said it like true Fremen ! Here brother, take my water! :spits on the ground: For Shai Hulud!!!

[@perryrhodan1364]

You have a great narration style. Great annunciation and you slow down the passage of words so I can think while you speak.

[@blankmantm2501]

smol pp

[@Wolfsins]

Smooth brain. No wrinkles!

[@0d138]

@@Wolfsins 😳 But I'm too young for wrinkles?!?!

[@FWilson15]

Personally, the lack of description is one of the reasons I love Dune. When a book spends pages and pages describing characters, technology, vehicles, and scenery, I get very bored and start skipping through trying to find where it gets interesting again. Give me sparse description any day. Imagination will happily fill in the rest. And as much I love Alistair Reynold's Revelation Space series and Iain M. Bank's Culture series, both of them can get a little too bogged down trying to describe things. Especially Banks and his orbitals. Now the criticism that his characters are not relatable . . . that's a bit more valid.

[@dominicsmith5588]

I appreciate your understanding sympathetic look at the various reasons some people can't get into or simply don't like Dune. I myself made a serious attempt to read Dune many, many years ago and failed utterly, giving up part way. For me it was being utterly overwhelmed with the various historical details and motivations of the various factions when I simply did not care as I had been given no reason to. Make no mistake, I absolutely adore being metaphorically drowned in such complex details in fiction but only after I have been engaged with the setting and seen the various factions, societies ect play out though characters and narrative that I feel invested enough to delve into it. To give an example of a well known political science fiction novel, 1984 by George Orwell. While my favorite part of the book is the section where the protagonist Winston reads Goldstine's book, which is a massive historical lore dump, the section only engendered such feelings of wonder and elation when I first read it because of the time I had spent with Winson living in the nightmarish dystopian future of Big Brother and the Thought Police. I have not completely given up on Dune, my copy sits unfinished on my shelf and at some point I will go back to it and try again, even if I have to power though it to get to the later novels that perhaps I might find more engaging once I am more immersed in the setting.

[@JonnyHavoc]

Funny you say you got people into reading the dune books. And you got me into them, when I was having a bad bit of insomnia I,d listen to your book analysis and try to sleep. Failing to sleep I got really into them and had to read them. So nice one for that. Love the books. Fav book is god emp of dune

[@varamyrsickskinzz7355]

None of these were problems for me. I've tried to read Dune and have given up three times. Every time it was because it I don't like his style of writing.

[@sahamal_savu]

I would accept that answer if you had tried to read some of his other novels and came to the same conclusion. Try reading The Santaroga Barrier or The White Plague and if you still don't like those stories I will believe you just don't like his style :)

[@CosmoShidan]

I hear you; the problems for me are the pacing. A great read that subverts fantasy and science fantasy I would recommend is Norman Spinrad's the Iron Dream. Spinrad's great in that he wrote the Star Trek episode the Doomsday Machine.

[@Malt454]

A few reasons people might not like the books, some of them interrelated: They become more slower paced and introspective as they progress. There's a lot of maneuvering for power that really doesn't come to much of anything. The books and characters aren't quite as clever or profound as they think they are, or as some people would tell you they are. The ideas are interesting, but the books aren't as well written as they might be. The series has a kind of elitist reputation that isn't wholly earned and can be off-putting. I understand that a number of people will disagree with me on this, but I write it in honesty, not out of any particular malice.

[@Randleray]

"The books and characters aren't quite as clever or profound as they think they are, or as some people would tell you they are." This is exactly the point that makes me mad the most if people talk about Dune. Yeah, the story takes a lot of philosophical turns but the characters and especially the story in some parts are not as complicated or even deepminded as most fans will tell you. Dune has some very clever ideas and some very exotic viewpints, but so do other epic sagas like Lord of the Rings or Ice and Fire. In the first book of Dune, Herbert created the most easy villain an author of such proportions could write, the Baron. The Baron might be intelligent and has some manipulative tactics to him, but all in all he is just the same dull villain as Sauron or others of that category. Then you have Duncan and Leto which are both the equivalent of a downright good-guy like Aragorn or Gandalf... If we would be honest, we had to say that actually most characters of Dune are very 2-dimensional, nowhere near as smart as a Littlefinger or Tyrion. Dune has much material for thinking, but the story itself feels only complex because of the long inner monologues and thought-processes of a small portion of the characters.

[@Malt454]

@@Randleray - The Harkonnens are pretty cartoonish; not just the villains/opposition in the story, but also unbelievably corrupt and evil in almost every conceivable way. By comparison, and with the little amount of space devoted to him, Count Fenring might be one of Herbert's best and most complicated creations, but he is, for the most part, only a minor character. In the middle of the two extremes, most of the characters in Dune range between 1.5 and 2.5 dimensions and seem only to be created as supporting players in telling Paul's story rather than as people in their own right - if they aren't talking or thinking about Paul in some way, it doesn't seem to matter if they are talking or thinking at all.

[@Malt454]

@fluoxy L. - Whatever; the books are OK, but they're not the best stories or writing I've ever read. The whole "if you don't buy the hype, you're not 'smart' enough for these books" thing is simply misplaced.

[@Randleray]

@fluoxy L. I figure you do not have much joy in live if you have to reside to such elitism, you have my sympathy :)

[@ieatgremlins]

It is definitely difficult and strange but I am enjoying it immensely. I like the minimalistic description; I think if you are okay with being lost for a while, you’ll ultimately appreciate the story.

[@BlackHole1217]

Where does all the DUNE artwork come from that you use?! It’s amazing!