The Reed Smoot Hearings w/John Larsen

From 1904-1907 Congress held a series of hearings on whether Reed Smoot, an LDS apostle who was elected to the Senate, should be seated. The hearing provide a deep look at Mormon practice, history and theology in the congressional record. These hearings and the controversies surrounding them remain a pivotal moment in Mormon History.
Show Notes: www.mormonstor...
00:03:00 Photo of John Larsen reading at a game
00:16:50 Ten minute history of polygamy in the church
00:30:50 2,500 criminal cases, 95% of them were sexually related
00:39:27 Reed Smoot
00:47:11 Three big problems putting Mormons in office
00:50:25 Oath of Vengeance
00:57:30 Joseph F. Smith
01:04:00 The question at hand
01:05:07 Dramatic reading from the Reed Smoot Hearing
01:11:50 What people fight about in this hearing
01:15:15 Did Joseph F. Smith perform any of these marriages?
01:21:18 Joseph F. Smith never denies that there was post manifesto polygamy, he just denied that he knew anything about it.
01:21:54 The second big problem with the Reed Smoot hearings
01:24:28 Why didn’t Joseph F. Smith just tell the truth?
01:32:00 Lying in a religious context, we all have inside speak and outside speak
01:37:57 Spirit of Prophecy in Mormonism
01:40:40 Following the Reed Smoot Hearings, they wanted a new image
01:44:00 This was a total win for the church
01:46:20 The church ceased to be a cult with the Reed Smoot Hearing
01:47:08 Mormon history is fascinating and worthy of inquiry
01:48:20 Theory of Mormonism
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[@KidFreshie]

I've been saying for years that it's truly perplexing how there is not one, ZERO, podcast on the fascinating Reed Smoot hearings. None. And now it's not only been done...but it was my favorite exmo who did it! Thank you John Larsen!

[@mormonstories]

Thanks for listening

[@timmiestabrnak]

But this is great to learn from

[@KidFreshie]

@@timmiestabrnak John says at the beginning that he's never done one. If you can find another please link it here.

[@farmchick1413]

John Larsen, I take all of your reading recommendations seriously. I bought 7 Mormon pioneer women books you recommended for my winter reading, and I'm a never Mormon! HAHA I've learned so much on this channel; especially appreciate all the historic research. Thanks, Mormon Stories. I watch weekly.

[@rydonsadd]

Man, what a history lesson. I've been out of the church for some time now but I'm still blown away by the outright perverion and deception of the "church authorities"! Thank you both for this episode. Amazing!!!

[@forrestgossett]

I stumbled across this channel and I’m glad I did. In 9th grade a neighbor gave me the Book of Mormon, which I devoured. But that was because I was a devoted fantasy and science fiction fan. So, my response to him about his “Bible” was not well-received. Over time, he and his nine siblings waged war against my brother and I. That was in the early 1970s and since then anything I could find to read about that religion, I did. These deep dives are absolute gold!

[@geese5170]

I’d love to hear your experience with Mormons in the 70s as a non member. Mormons are great at maintaining an aura of peace and love, while maintaining one of the most judgemental, hateful ideologies I’ve ever encountered. I can’t imagine the attitude of privileged individuals in that era, especially before black men were allowed to hold the priesthood. If you feel like sharing, please do

[@jefferyorton1723]

Of course he had 9 gd siblings. That's A LOT of diapers in the dump.

[@brooke_reiverrose2949]

You two together are such a delight

[@rockytreadway]

😂😂😂😂 The dramatic reenactment was wonderful!! 😅😂😂😂❤❤❤❤

[@paulsharp1248]

One supporter of Smoot was Senator Boies Penrose of Pennsylvania. Addressing the subject of polygamy, Penrose reportedly glared at one or more of his Senate colleagues who had a reputation for philandering and said, "As for me, I would rather have seated beside me in this chamber a polygamist who doesn't polyg than a monogamist who doesn't monag."

[@17...20]

That reading was HILARIOUS 😂😂😂

[@neilcampbell4931]

I would listen to all 5 days of F Smith’s testimony if you two read it. 😂. So great. Thanks for this content. ❤

[@andreadiamond7115]

John Larson is such a funny, smart guest ❤️

[@jameswalberg3265]

Educational and entertaining. Thank you Johns and Maven. Loved it

[@camillespatz5081]

Thanks!

[@tararose5136]

I need yall to read out all 5 days that was a hilarious dramatic reading

[@jamesbyrd6922]

Loved this podcast. It really put made clear how the Reed Smoot Hearings changed the direction of the church. Moving from viewing mormonism as a kingdom to replace the american government to viewing itself a force within american exceptionalism. However, I fear that mormons are once again moving back in the other direction with all of the hatred of government that has become so strong in republican circles. JCB

[@AdamHuishStreaming]

I really valued listening to this whole episode. What I valued most, separate from the content, was the dynamic between the two. Normally Dehlin is doing lots of talking (great thing! I love what he has to say) but here Larsen was doing most of the talking and Dehlin was listening, being impressed, sharing thoughts, and I really enjoyed the change of pace. Also the content was fantastic. Thank you Larsen for your hard work and delivery and thank you Dehlin for being the safe space to land. ❤

[@mormonstories]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@LizzaJo]

Thanks John L & D! ❤Mormon Stories

[@gregoryturnbow4841]

Outstanding presentation. Your works are greatly appreciated. Thank you for all y'all are doing.

[@LizzaJo]

Fascinated! Great channel

[@pamelot9158]

Fascinating!

[@lorrainedewaal3838]

John’s role play was hilarious. Convincing much! Loved it!

[@jasonkramsey]

These are literally the highlight of my month. I have rewatched each one several times while waiting for the next.

[@chrismiddleton4733]

Lol John Dehlin reenacting Life of Bryan made me laugh out loud in my car driving to work. And made me want to see that movie 😂

[@jdweston-ff8mq]

The one thing I have with this discussion (which was great) is that it’s very easy for this transcript reading to be taken out of context-the way John read Joseph s smith. Bill Burr has a stand up about this regarding the “me too” movement wherein “No, doesn’t always mean “No.”.

[@patclark1622]

JD @ 1.45 - "The Mormon story is the Human story" - yes, of course, that's why Mormon Stories is so interesting. Mormon Stories is raw qualitative data - Anthropologists this is a deep, rich mine.

[@dajakaro22]

Catching a live for the first time! So excited! Thanks for all you do! Helps us all to better understand the Morman faith.

[@pathasathought2390]

I always learn something when I listen to John Larsen. Great show today.

[@ForestLadyForever]

Thanks for another great episode! I'm a Never-Mo, and I don't have any Mormon heritage... As far as I know. However, I've always been intrigued by the Reed Smoot hearings because my maiden name is Smoots. It's such an unusual name that it makes me wonder if we share common ancestry way back. My Smoots ancestor, also an Abraham, brought his family to America from Bavaria in the 17th or 18th century. They were German Mennonites fleeing persecution. My family doesn't seem to have any ties to Utah or Mormonism. However, my dad has mentioned that he knew of some Mormon "Smoot" when he was growing up in Arizona. It makes me wonder... Any "Smoot" out there who want to research this possible connection with me? Maybe I just want LDS folks to show up in my family tree since I've enjoyed learning about Mormon history so much!

[@shelleymays8529]

This was fascinating. I had never heard of any of this history. Thank you for all your, hard work in reading, and putting this all together. Very impressive.

[@totonow6955]

I hope to hear nuanced statements from Mormon Stories about Israel Palestine. I respect MS and need to hear from others about this.

[@thatwildginger5423]

Benjamin Netanyahou is a radical right wing zionist. He got his start in politics as a radical long before modern Hamas existed. He personally believed in the extermination of palistinians a LONG time ago. He has consolidated power and now no one can even dissent against the response of a coincidentally well timed attack. This bombing of Gaza is untenable.

[@mathewfinch]

It's complicated but also pretty simple. Two right-wing governments refuse to compromise with each other, which fuels increasing violence, which makes the people in both countries want increasingly right-wing governments, and the cycle continues.

[@totonow6955]

@@mathewfinch thanks. I have just seen people that I respected saying things so far outside of reality that I was hoping this community would be expressing a much more nuanced understanding of this long standing world problem. And I will just add that one right wing has gotten way bigger than the other right wing but right wings just never stop do they?

[@virahpayam]

I think that subject might be a little off-topic for this podcast 🤔 The central issue with Israel and Palestine is the fundamental problem with ethnostates. Attempting to turn Germany into an ethnostate is what caused the holocaust. Why? Because when you establish a state specifically designated for only one group of people... what do you do with the other people who are already living there? People are not going to willingly leave the only home and country they've ever known just because the UN said so. If people won't leave willingly, then they must be moved against their will... do you see where this goes? That's exactly what happened in the 1940's when the UN established Israel. There were already other people who had been living there for generations (not just Palestinians). There was no way for this to not result in conflict. It should have been one united country and (just like in every other country), diverse groups of people have to figure out how to live together. There is no way to create or maintain an ethnostate without violence. I think it's a pretty uncontroversial statement to say ethnostates and genocide... not compatible with life.

[@beckyguthrie4787]

If someone claims to be a true prophet from God, he/she shouldn't be afraid of telling the truth. Jesus, Isaiah, and most of the apostles, (and many others in the early church), were persecuted to death because they told the truth. In the end, it shouldn't matter what happens to the body, (imprisonment, torture, death) but only the eternal soul.

[@wendyoweaver]

Love John Larsen! So impressive, so smart, all around good guy. Thanks so much for sharing his intellect with us! ❤❤❤

[@wendyoweaver]

Love and miss you @JohnLarsen1. We’d love to share farm-ish ideas and would love to have you here if you are ever in Western Colorado.

[@katphyre]

No one ever talks about Upton Sinclair anymore. Did they take The Jungle off the high school bookshelves? He was the subject of my high school senior thesis (about a million years ago). It's a very interesting time in our history. Thanks for all the homework you guys do for us. It matters, and I'm so appreciative.

[@markvonwisco7369]

I graduated from High School in the early 80s. I recall having lessons covering Upton Sinclair.

[@function0077]

I graduated from high school in WA state in the 1990s. I did not have to read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle while in high school. However, I did read The Jungle about 10 years ago, because I was working in some old tunnels under the Chicago loop (i.e. the Chicago freight and trolley tunnel system) and their construction is briefly mentioned in the book.

[@bendyrland7213]

It was still around in the late 90s. I don't remember if it was highschool or a college freshman US history class that assigned it for reading.

[@shches8480]

This is my first time listening to John Larsen. I'm only a few minutes into listening but wow. The fact that John Larsen can lecture so well is really a testament to his knowledge base and skill. It reminds me of the many university lecturers i attended. One slight recommendation: the use of a slideshow might prove beneficial to help the audience follow along with what's being said.

[@iamjustsaying1]

Oscars go to the Johns for bringing to life the hearing script! That was such fun to hear the president squirm when asked if he was a "prophet."😂

[@wendymerrillperry9699]

Good history review. Not much else new here.

[@grandmaroxie2210]

John, John, John, this is excellent. Thank you

[@mormonstories]

Thanks for listening

[@grandmaroxie2210]

@@mormonstories I am always amazed at John's work for us.

[@Keisalove10]

John Larsen on Joseph F Smith…“He looked like a yokel.” 😂😂😂 57:55

[@jenniferstevenson1618]

Larsen have taught me so much at about mormanism and bhudists which is what I ascribe to. Just 4 basic truths. I love and respect all religions. But, most don't like mine because there is no power or control to be gained from it...

[@LittleOrla]

What a fantastic talk! I could listen to this guy all night. 👍

[@lesliescholfield4253]

Oh no!😂 another layer is the roll playing. 🎉this is a definite must do every time!😂

[@mariannelanuti132]

Great analysis of Establishment Clause. I agree with your conclusions

[@townsendv58]

It's always a good episode with John Larsen. Thanks guys.

[@dajakaro22]

Can’t wait to catch a live for the first time. Thank you for all you do on this platform!

[@nwwrf648]

Thanks for this look at all this!!! Watching from Oregon!!

[@karenili3196]

I love the time line leading up to polygamy, it helps so much! Thank you John Larson!

[@goldielion-s7f]

Excellent episode. We graduate-level autodidacts wish to thank guys like you for your presentations. We can handle the intensity!!

[@janetmarugg9424]

John Larsen is always good! ❤

[@JacobriddleDPM]

This is gonna be a good one. Love John Larsen

[@DavidBarlow-o9z]

who did the Mormon Battalion journals?😅

[@LayneChapman-db1fc]

My mission president in Ohio in the early 80's was a descendent of Reed Smoot.

[@ninasage7735]

No playing cards sold on Sunday.

[@TheSaintelias]

“John Larsen kitchen” always has some good straight forward cooking.

[@joe-mama6451]

I think a big part of the reality of the Utah polygamist issue was that the Utah territory was a “territory” and as such under the exclusive control and jurisdiction of the federal government at that time.

[@tylergebert3285]

Wow, great podcast. Man, contrast this story with the abinadai story in the book of mormon. You'd think that the prophet of the "one and only true church on the earth" would be more like abinadai and stand strong and firm in sharing the "truth" no matter the consequences. And hey, maybe there would've been another Alma who goes on to grow the church. Its funny, but just thinking about it makes me kinda sad that the church isn't true, and that this sort of thing doesn't happen.

[@jiggsh54]

Reconstruction.

[@mrgrnjns1111]

One of the greatest deceptions Lucifer ever made was convincing a boy in the woods that he was the father and the savior. Think about that .

[@rmj4978]

Fascinating! Thank you both!

[@DeathValleyDazed]

Appreciate John Larson big picture contextual view of Mormon history which includes positive and negative.

[@sarastelcz2338]

Love y'all

[@clydeLedford]

You omitted the most influential force that Protestants had going for them was that they were predominantly Masonic. Especially the Southern States were predominately Masonic, but also Northern States, were Masonic. Yet, while the Masonic politicians fought the twin barbarian practice of polygamy and slavery, Freemasons did polygamy too. And only Freemasons had slaves. :.

[@rooheath]

Fantastic episode all 🎉

[@ScottJB]

Hackers took down John Larsen's content? Kinda like the illegal Nauvoo Expositor assault by J Smith? Some things never change for Mormonism!

[@aaronrasmussen981]

It sounds like Smith is not convinced that he is a prophet and knows he’s a fraud, he is just sustained as such

[@JP-JustSayin]

When the current events cool off a bit (tim ballard, 8 passengers, McConkie's grand son)... it would be great to see a spin off podcast limited series (maybe Larsen and Carah, maybe Carah, Sam and Tanner) that goes deep on these events. Maybe a 4-6 parter. 🙃 ... also looking forward to the devil episode in the hopper.

[@KidFreshie]

Maybe a Mormon-themed true crime podcast? God knows they'd never run out of material.

[@michealfrances]

❤

[@anneopinion2129]

I have the 1968 book ‘Sermons & Writings of President Joseph F. Smith’ and on page 35 it says "NEW REVELATION, So far as I know there is not an ordinance of the Church now enjoyed or practiced that was not revealed to the Church by the Prophet Joseph Smith. *I know of no new doctrine that has been revealed* . Principles that were revealed to the Prophet Joseph have grown and developed more fully and clearly to the understanding; *but we have received nothing new that I know of* . Yet, if we should receive something new, through the proper channels of the Church, we should be as ready and willing to receive it as we were, or would be, to receive the same at the hands of the Prophet Joseph himself. - Oct. C. R., 1900, p. 47.” I don't think he was lying about that part. Since in the church new doctrine would come by way of Revelation, sounds like he admitted in the year 1900 no new revelation had been received, even by him since the day of Joseph Smith. In the book he seems to believe that new revelation in the future is possible. I think we all want one modern day prophecy and one amazing real revelation! Just one. We've been waiting so long! They don't prophesy and they don't even heal the people dying of illnesses. Some people need a Jesus, Prophet, Priesthood Authority healing right now, but that's not going to happen either. John Dehlin - Great job on your old man voice. That was so funny! John Larsen - Another amazing podcast! Thank you both.

[@keile513]

Go BEAVERS!🧡🖤

[@GaliSinatra]

Fascinating subject.

[@yanyanfourtwenty]

I laughed my guts out when Dr. Dehlin did the JF Smith impression haha

[@jenniferstevenson1618]

Amazing history. I cannot my believe my ex is so convinced of the church propaganda....

[@christabonney3708]

I misread when I went to google the subject. Thankfully, when I googled "Reed Smut", all I got was fly fishing sites.😂🙏

[@Miss.sassycassy]

Wait is Carah coming back? Cause I’d watch her anywhere lol

[@annjacobs1298]

I love the admission of no discernment, no revelations, not being a seer. No so-called prophet knows everything otherwise they would be making discoveries, protecting people more, and leading change. These prophets are behind the curve because they are OLD.

[@patriciafinn5717]

John larson yeh!!!❤

[@theitineranthistorian2024]

john, looking kinda steve bannon but sounding better than ever.

[@rangecow]

Better to visit a farm than to buy it.

[@jenniferstevenson1618]

I'm learning so much. I know I'm late on the scene. But, I'm pretty sure there never wouldn't been a second date with my ex had I've known any of this. My religion is only four basic truths. None of this crazy stuff.

[@nwwrf648]

Only 2000 more to 200K. We can do this!!!

[@autumnleaves1984]

I think it was a case of not wanting to cast pearls before swine

[@shannonigans_]

john’s voice 😂😂😂😂

[@HPM503]

Joseph F. Smith was quite the weasel during the hearing.

[@jenlebel617]

Podcast: A year of nepotism - that ends up being 30 years long.😉

[@theitineranthistorian2024]

reed smoot, a child of polygamy? just another guy caught up in “salvation” of his life. isn’t religion really about fear of death?

[@herbofallon965]

Reed Smoot, the son of Abraham Owen Smoot, was one of my ancestors. He was a Conservative Senator in the U.S. Senate and also a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. It's been quite a while since I saw Mormon Stories the last time. This podcast or whatever you want to call it goes against Truth. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true. Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God. You people are condemning yourselves. You're just not smart enough to realize it. The guy who used the F-word in this podcast gives your whole show away. You sound like desperate people. Too bad!

[@karenili3196]

‘Epstein morality’ is a great description!

[@Dink1963]

Noooo. I must be deforested to ask Cara back! Learn the lesson and move on from her. Warning.

[@jenniferstevenson1618]

Are ya scared?

[@Britbec]

John D. clearly demonstrating the talent that came up through Mormon roadshow culture. A true loss. 😁

[@claytoncornia4156]

Roadshows were such a fun part of growing up mormon in the 80's. The last time my stake did a roadshow, my ward had all our young men dress up in drag for the skit. We had such a fun time performing in drag, and most of the audience enjoyed our skit too, everyone except the stake presidency. Roadshows were canceled shortly after that for some strange reason.🤔

[@KidFreshie]

Roadshow culture is one of the things John Larsen has repeatedly said he loved and misses about the church.

[@Britbec]

@@KidFreshie me too!! I grew up in the UK and the members lived very far apart. Roadshow season was so much fun, and a great opportunity to bond with one another!

[@quacks2much]

Everybody lies, even the god of the Bible if he exists. (Compare, the "lying prophets" in the Bible.) There is more than one way to lie. We can lie by omission, which is what Joseph F. Smith did if he truly believed he was a prophet. If I believed I were a prophet, I would admit it if I were being truthful, not answer, "some say that I am a prophet." (Compare Jesus's evasive answer to Pontius Pilate when he asked Jesus if he was the King of the Jews.) Evasive answers are a form of dishonesty when we are deliberatively evasive, as it appears Joseph F. Smith was.

[@olyokie]

Trying to logically examine a cult? Hahahaha

[@SaffronHammer]

I think I do believe so. HAHAHA!