The Resurrection in its Ancient Mythic Context

Dr. Richard C. Miller, author of "Resurrection and Reception in Early Christianity," joins me to discuss the resurrection of Christ and its place within the mythic and literary context of the ancient Mediterranean world. Comparisons to figures like Heracles, Romulus, and various Roman Emperors, who played a major role in the mythic and imaginative landscape of the Greco-Roman world, will be brought to bear.
Don't miss this deep dive into one of the most controversial and fascinating topics concerning early Christianity, from a bona fide expert!
Find his book on Amazon here: www.amazon.com...

[@Ken_Scaletta]

We should not mock former believers who go through emotional turmoil when they deconstruct. They should be commended for being able to think their way out of irrational beliefs and being willing to accept what is true even if they don't like it. Being able to accept new evidence and change your mind is the key difference between smart and dumb. A lot of people when they deconstruct go through phases that are very similar to the stages of acceptance of grief. Denial, then anger (the angry apologists are the ones who are experiencing the most personal doubt. It's a tell), then bargaining, which is expressed in these situations through attempts to modify one's faith beliefs to accommodate new information without losing faith completely. for example (and this is common), a lot of people will say, "well I don't have to take the Bible literally any more, some of it is allegorical or symbolic, but it's still "inspired" or authoritative in some way." That's the bargaining stage. I do think some people end up being psychologically OK with this level of engagement with faith. They don't have to commit to the literal authority of a text and they can interpret the Bible any way they want and mold God in their own image without the text getting in the way. Some people are comfortable with this, but it will not be satisfying to people who are genuinely curious and genuinely want to know what is true. "Liberal" Christianity stops being satisfying too because it still doesn't answer any critical questions, provide any theodicy or truly engage honestly with the texts. The next stage after bargaining is depression. That's when you se the crying. They are going through genuine, clinical grief. They should be treated with empathy and commended because they made a choice to accept what is true no matter how painful. The trauma they are experiencing is not their fault, it's the result of years of religious abuse and control. They're figuring out that everything they thought they were living their lives for is a lie and a scam. Crying is a healthy sign at that point. They are processing and after depression comes acceptance.

[@jasonhumphrey2512]

Derreck, this was excellent. I had a Dr. Miller / Romulus moment myself years ago. I suffered actual physical pain during my de-conversion. had taught men’s groups, bible studies, and served as a Deacon. It shattered the paradigm for me. It took years to come to grips with it.

[@annascott3542]

Well said. Yeah it’s unfortunate that there are atheists or nonbelievers (as I prefer to call the type who would make comments such as those Dr. Miller mentioned) who are just shitty people who only share one thing in common with atheists; lack of belief, and are morally & intellectually shallow if not bankrupt on everything else, yet identify as atheists and give the rest of us a bad name. Anyway, I don’t know who that was who made those comments but I’ve noticed just recently on some of Mythvision’s more recent videos a noticeable increase of ppl in the comments who are either full of vitriol, crazy religious nutters banging the Bible over people’s heads, or a lot of just unthoughtful - sorry to say - ignorant opinions & statements by rude & argumentative people in general, atheists or otherwise (I suspect the ppl who made these comments about Dr. Miller fall into this category) that I think must be new to this community bc like I said, in the 5-6 years I’ve been interested in this subject/following Mythvision I’ve never noticed this before to this extent.

[@jukkaahonen6557]

Thank you for speaking for us who have deconstructed our faiths. Your description of the struggle fits into my experience quite a lot. This is a lonely path for many. Only a few people understand what we are going through. I didn't feel abused, but rather quite delighted when I was religious. It gave me good friends and a sense of meaning. But I couldn't hold the beliefs any longer, despite having built my whole life upon them. Now I feel very empty, but I must carry on and rebuild my life. Giving up on life is not an option.

[@SereneSkating-mx1cc]

I'm one of those ... Angry thou to have lost all this time to this fricken belief... Happy at the same time to be where I am🎉

[@solomonessix6909]

R.C. Miller's work is exciting!

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

As much as I value learning as a 'hardcore atheist', I'm glad I was able to make the leap to a mythological conclusion without going to school for years to get the answer.

[@sp1ke0kill3r]

> I value learning as a 'hardcore atheist You and Kirk Cameron?

[@marktwain5232]

Thank you so much! I got Dr. Miller's book two weeks ago but have not started in yet. This gives me a head start. Much appreciated!

[@26beegee]

Bummer missed the live show again! Enjoyed Dr. Miller on Mythvision and now your show, too. Looking forward to hearing even more from him in the future. This is the kind of information people need to understand Christianity has never been unique the way we are taught growing up. Only by knowing about all the other religions who believed the same things can we be liberated from the cults.

[@sheriwilby8034]

I can totally relate to our life experiences. I am a second generation family that grew up in a very catholic radical charismatic ecumenical spirit filled covenant community dedicated to the teachings of Jesus and devoted to one another. .. But when I started investigating the OT for myself outside any bias it was then that I finally realized that this "New Testament is just another ancient story coming to life...I was enraged and dumbfounded that my family 5 generations back unfortunately fell for religiosities of such.. I do thank for your realization and then scribbling them down!!! Peace and goodness my fellow man😊

[@sheriwilby8034]

Ur and Babylonian gods and then all the ancients that were before them seem to b at least a starting point for some ideologies... where and who even actually had the notion to think about morality? When does this thought come into being?

[@sheriwilby8034]

I think they took him and put him somewhere else

[@sheriwilby8034]

And speaking of Lazarus, I've been thinking about that why isn't anyone talking about his resurrection more?

[@sheriwilby8034]

So Jesus was the love child of Mary and Panthera and then when it was all said and done they needed to make Jesus exalted being so they did the virgin of birth is that it is that a thought

[@irishguyjg_2ndchancerecovery]

Dr. RCM is someone I Just recently found, due to my position and place in faith, I've come to the conclusion and the realization that God helped me find him. His work is paradigm shifting for me. I no longer believe in the blood of Jesus, but believe he was a person and rabbi

[@jfphotography69]

No such thing a God/God's/Devil/Devils, they are man made mythological utter nonsense. And faith in it's nature is auto deceptive, hence, belief without evidence. I call that self serving delusions. All this man made religious utter nonsense is exactly what it is, man made mythological utter nonsense. Remember no one is born with any religion, no one. Religions are nothing more than mind destroying cults. The problem we have on this planet called earth is people occupying themselves with utter nonsense, I guess it's a lot easier than actually having to use that sponge between their ears. The only reason people fall into this religion trap nonsense is because humans are afraid of death and the unknown, and do to that are easily controlled and manipulated by snake oil salesmen. This religion crap should have ended a long time ago. I can understand to a point people in those primitive times believing "which I am sure was not all of them" this utter nonsense and writing about it, but in today's age is outright idiotic. I guess if you have enough people to sell BS to, that business model will continue to exist, unfortunately. I say it's time and money wasted.

[@maatjusticia3954]

About Kamil Gregor question, Dr. Miller's book mentions Peisistratus of Orchomenus, who was king of Arcadian Orchomenus at the time of the Peloponnesian War (431 - 404 BCE). There's another Peisistratus (c. 600 - 527 BCE) who was an Athens' tyrant. So, it's one-century slip which amounts to nothing as far as the fable told about the former is concerned.

[@annascott3542]

Dr. Miller rocks! I think he’s soooo needed in this discussion, breathes new life into a field in its deathrows, if not dead already, in which case he’s resurrecting it…🤭sorry haha. Derek this is the first video of yours I’ve watched, and I subscribed within the first half of it. Very well done!! I really appreciate your thoughtful questions and stepping out the way to allow Dr. Miller space and time to fully address it & not interrupting once!!! 🙏 Thank you!!! I’d love to see more interviews with the 2 of you!

[@elenahofmann-smith5723]

Love Dr. Miller! Great interview! Glad he appreciates Dr. Dennis MacDonald who has an amazing book showing that the bible imitates ancient poems and myths, topic by topic in sequence! The time for breaking from the strangle hold of Christian fundamentalism has arrived! This very poignant story of de-conversion will help many.

[@waderogers]

Derreck, one of your best live streams to date and I'm damned sorry I missed it. Have downloaded it on my computer though! I've been hip to syncretism for about 25 years now. I interview D.M. Murdock/Acharya S of The Christ Conspiracy fame on my old podcast and while some of her data wasn't correct, her basic premise was: there's not much that's original about the Jesus 'history'. Love how Dr. Miller just puts things in plan terms. So easy, even a Xian can understand it! And he's such a good person to interview. Funny, handsome, personable, well versed in his subject matter, doesn't give a s**t if anyone agrees with him, etc. Keep him coming back for more!

[@polkazoochief1137]

Awesome interview! I rewatched a lot of it to really get a lot of the details. It's my favorite Atheologica episode so far.

[@davidlenett8808]

There's a vast chasm between a serious academic and the average pew sitter. The scholar can see that Rome didn't convert to Christianity,... Christianity converted to Rome.

[@QuestionThingsUseLogic]

Or else Rome created Christianity...

[@davidlenett8808]

@QuestionThingsUseLogic I have often wondered if Rome played a role in this Jewish theological diversion. The motivation? Jews had a zealously annoying connection to Jerusalem and their, 'Holy' Land such that there were constant clashes and confrontations with its inhabitants. Hmm, what if a 'New' concept could be released into the mindstream of these stubborn Jews that might sever its zealous connection to this strategically important strip of land and the temple system? Something more spiritual and less geo-located?... 🤔 And thus, under the sponsorship of a Roman Emperor, is born one of the first examples of mis-information warfare?

[@victorpulis5113]

exactly, The catholic church is a continuation of the Roman empire from the Popes' title Pontifex Maximum to his red shoes to the latin language to the rituals the plagiarized feasts the churches built on top of Roman deities' temples especially those dedicated to Mary.

[@christianshaw9102]

​@@QuestionThingsUseLogic or Roman Catholicism

[@QuestionThingsUseLogic]

@@christianshaw9102 it's the same thing, but packaged to look 'different'. The Emperor authors knew exactly what they were creating.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

The best argument against the existence of a Hebrew god needing a son is his attributes which include all powerful, all knowing, present everywhere, and impeccable - meaning he cannot make a mistake and has no need for assistance in running his Divine Perfect Plan. No son - no resurrection.

[@hjorvarthvalamir2182]

Great session, very interesting and informative.

[@francissreckofabian01]

Good show both of you.

[@KevinArdala01]

Looking forward to getting a copy of the book... 👍

[@alananimus9145]

I so want to see Miller and Carrier sit down and have a conversation.

[@howaboutataste]

An entire eight-person Richard C. panel!

[@iwasjustintrance]

I second that. The Richards need to band together.

[@maatjusticia3954]

How about Carrier - Miller - Walsh? They could tackle Paul's conundrum.

[@Nexus-jg7ev]

Miller-Ehrman, please!!!

[@sp1ke0kill3r]

ewwwww

[@jericosha2842]

Thanks for this. I'm more of a universalist Christian theist at this point. Loved this discussion and I see his points as lucid and logical. Need to get his book.

[@Nexus-jg7ev]

Thank you for not thinking that I will be burned for eternity, I really appreciate it! For real, that's so rare to hear from a Christian.

[@eugeneoisten9409]

Thanks for being part of the Christian nationalist problem 🫡

[@johnnehrich9601]

I was too, toward the end of my god belief. The Ken Ham/Kent Hovind wing of the religion pointed out that I couldn't be a "true" christian unless I bought (pun intended) into their views of Genesis, which instead helped push me OUT. And I realized that the type of god I wished for, all-knowing, all -loving, would never let the bible as it stands survive and would instead have written something perfectly aligned to this deity, IF he wanted us to know him. So amen and sayonara, christianity. And ditto all other concepts of a god.

[@RubenHernandez-um9ro]

Sorry I missed the live broadcast. Would have liked to ask Dr. Miller how much, if anything, was he influenced by Dr. Gregory Riley (prof. at Claremont) who also wrote in the 90s and early 2000s on the influences behind the resurrection.

[@robinette64]

That feeling of sadness, then freedom. Of joining the human race…. Man, I get that so so much. I know exactly how you felt.

[@petemccutchen3266]

Dr Miller should write a popular book, not published by a university press, that costs a bit less.

[@joselabiosa8892]

What an awesome interview and content. I was raised in the evangelical faith but I always was very skeptical about the claims of any religion sect being the absolute truth, mythicism, no-contradictions in our faith, and high morality of a loving "God" in spite of the spiteful and vile histories of the Old Testament, and the outlandish religious militancy, propaganda, and tyrant governance of ancient theocracies depicted in the Bible. Needless to mention the pagan worshiping of the man Jesus and its twisted communion and cannons very contrary to the fate of bigger pilars of the Judaism faith (none of them worshiped as Gods: Abraham, Moises, Enoch, Elijah, etc.). The fear of death and the obsession with an after life continues as the core irrational basis of indoctrination conditioning and mind control. If contemprary societies let them, religious zealots definitely will write the laws to resume stoning of any major or minor pitiful infraction. Keeping anyone's views subservient to the interpretation of the Gospel among so many contradicting denominations and snake-oil tele-evangelists are big businesses 24/7 in that realm. In my opinion, it is a pathetic and miserable sense of existence to constantly leverage fear over reason, critical thinking, the quest for knowledge, learning about other interpretations, and pursuing the freedom of choice. No one in Christianity holds the truth just cherry picked theological constructs that another denomination can easily debunk with another cherry-picked Bible verses. Cognitive dissonance in deed! Science helped me to bail out of religion satisfying my curiosity and enhancing my understanding of our relation with the Universe, Earth, and other branches of knowledge making sense about the rise of homo sapiens from the big Apes and how a suite of technolgies, cultures, division of labor, and societal organizations helped mankind to build up civilizations and empires. An unfinished story in deed. Dr.Miller's and other scholars' academic reviews of the Bibble and other "Sacred Books" as literature, myth and history standards. This is perhaps the beginning of the new journey to free up mankind from fear of the unknown and to end the grip of religion on mankind's potential. Please keep up the good work. Thank you.

[@abedonwona8576]

I doubt the ardent oblivious christian believers will get it. But please be reminded the wise will always learn from these expositions. The resurrection is indeed a hoax and my "little" research indeed jives with your exhaustive scholarship. Thank you Dr.Miller

[@theemptycross1234]

Derreck and Richard: from 0 to 100%, what is your level of confidence that Jesus existed? (as defined in minimal historicity) [sorry, I missed the live stream]

[@φαρμακεία-πρωταρχικός]

That is an excellent question. I’m curious as well. My question to you, do you currently fall into the mythicist position or historical position? I didn’t want to jump to any conclusion without hearing it from you first. 😌

[@Nexus-jg7ev]

My level of confidence that Jesus existed is probably about 90-95% and I am always open to new pieces of evidence and interpretations.

[@annascott3542]

​@@Nexus-jg7ev Thank you so much for giving Carrier some credit, that was really big and brave (unfortunate that’s even necessary) of you. You’re on the right track, ignore haters stay fearless.

[@Nexus-jg7ev]

@@annascott3542 It is clear that the gospels are too unreliable for finding a historical person named Jesus of Nazareth. They are full of Greeko-Roman mythology coupled with 'data-mining' of Old Testament prophecies, so it is really hard to discern what the historical Jesus said and did, or whether he existed at all. I do not think that any of the extra-biblical sources can corroborate the existence of Jesus, as to me it seems that they simply get their information from Christians who already believe in Jesus. Jospehus' work may well be tampered with by early Church fathers, while we cannot know if Tacitus got his information from Christians or if he researched government documentation related to Pilate. I actually have only two reasons to think that Jesus might have been a real person: 1) Paul knew his brother James and one of his closest disciples Peter. To claim that Jesus didn't exist would mean to assume that either Paul lied about his acquaintances or that Peter and James devised a myth. I think that it is more plausible that Paul did know these people, he even had arguments with them as to whether gentiles had to follow Jewish law to follow Jesus. 2) There is no evidence that anyone expected the Jewish messiah to be a martyr who would suffer and die for the sins of others. The common understanding of a messsiah was that of a great king who would restore the Davidic kingdom, gather therein all Jews from around the world, and establish worldwide peace and universal knowledge of Yahweh. He would prepare the way for either Yahweh's advent to Earth for judgement, or the advent of that so-called Son of Man who Jews probably understood to be some archangel, like Michael. It seems very unreasonable and counterintuitive for anyone to invent a crucified messiah, unless there was a person who people believed to be the messiah, and who was crucified, thus making his followers begin to rationalize how he could still be the messiah despite being killed by the oppressors whom he was supposed to expel from Judea. It seems to me far more likely that Jesus was a real person whose followers believed that he was the messiah while he was alive and that he would fulfill all messianic prophecies about restoration of the kingdom, ingathering of the Jews in the promised land, world peace, etc. Jesus, however, got tortured to death, and then cognitive dissonance kicked in among his followers who went back to scripture and found alternative ways in which Jesus could be the messiah which is how the doctrine of substitutional atonement was invented. I am fairly certain that the suffering messiah concept is a post-facto rationalization of a real historical event (the crucifixion) rather than something that was invented from scratch. So, these are my reasons to think that Jesus of Nazareth actually existed. What would make me change my view is perhaps the finding of evidence that the concept of a suffering messiah was already in circulation among Jews before Jesus or at least before his death, as well as finding sufficient reasons to think that Paul did not know either Peter or James and that he made the Jesus myth up, and I am actually quite concerned about the way in which he twists Hebrew scripture and makes theological innovations, although this doesn't necessarily demonstrate that Paul is lying about everything. Another plausible scenario is that Paul might have picked up what was already a myth in development from other people who claimed to know Peter and James. I am actually a bit concerned about the historicity of Peter.

[@kellydalstok8900]

Nearly two hours … I guess I won’t be finishing reading my book today.

[@ciaran13786]

There is some pretty bad feedback in this video, which is a pity, as the content is excellent. Perhaps, next time, use headphones, or even just mute your mic when the guest is speaking.

[@lowbarbillcraig3689]

@25:15 we atheists can be dicks sometimes

[@georgepennington9833]

great discussion

[@Scorned405]

Very cool interview

[@kjmav10135]

This makes me think of the book, “God’s Funeral” by AN Wilson. He took the title from a Thomas Hardy poem about the death of God. The book is about how the effects of the Enlightenment finally filters down to upper middle class/intelligensia of Great Britain in the 1800s. Oxford was FREAKING OUT about the implications of Enlightenment atheism on the Academy. They didn’t know how to handle it, and felt the need to suppress it as well. Highly recommend the book. And the poem.

[@mjt532]

I'm about 13 minutes in... I don't know if this got fixed later, but there is, at times, a lot of echo on Dr Miller's end.

[@777Atum]

Good video

[@petrairene]

Very similar stories exist in other world religions, for example in Indian and buddhist spirituality.

[@terryallen6688]

I have heard that the Lazarus miracle was more a resuscitation rather than a resurrection?

[@NoWay1969]

_Were_ they "fed to the lions?" At least, were they fed to the lions more than anyone else? This sounds like a babys-being-thrown-out-of-incubators story to me.

[@Ken_Scaletta]

When I went to the Roman Colosseum, the first thing the tour guide did was debunk the "Christians to the lions" myth. For a good book on the subject I would suggest Candida Moss's "Myth of Persecution." Criminals in general were fed to lions, but Christians were not singled out.

[@NoWay1969]

@@Ken_Scaletta _grazi,_ I'll check out the book.

[@germanboy14]

Great

[@paulschlachter4313]

🔥content - sub'ed!

[@junem5227]

So, is there a life after death or do we just cease to exist? I personally do believe in a source/God of some sort. Can I explain it? No, but deep within I believe there is a source that is responsible for all creation, a deity that is nothing like the one/ones described in the Old Testament.

[@deewesthill1213]

Another road encounter story, as in the myths of Romulus and Jesus, is found in a Buddhist drama, Samghabhedavastu, in the Mahapari Nirvana Sutra. Kasyapas, a disciple traveling with 500 monks, receives news of the death of the Buddha from a mysterious unknown personage. This information is mentioned on page 106 of _Jesus Never Existed_ by Kenneth Humphreys. The "500 monks" may be linked to Paul's claim in I Corinthians 15:6 that the risen Jesus appeared to "500 brethren". The book by Humphreys also lists many more interesting parallels between Buddhist texts and the Christian Gospels, including the nativity and resurrection claims.

[@maatjusticia3954]

The "500 brethren" may also be a later accidental (or intentional) corruption, as the word "pentakosiois" (five hundred) is very similar to "pentēkostēs" (Pentecost).

[@deewesthill1213]

@@maatjusticia3954 That's interesting!

[@Nexus-jg7ev]

​@@maatjusticia3954 it might have referred to people who were claiming to have seen the risen Jesus during Pentecost and who were then called the Pentecost brethren, which might have been later mistaken for 500 brethren.

[@maatjusticia3954]

@@Nexus-jg7ev Yes, it's possible.

[@roderickshaka3626]

🔰It'd also be great to make a video juxtaposing that Graeco-Roman period with the 60's, 70's & 80's. That period (60's, 70's & 80's) was rife with incredible stories of alien abductions (you can explore how people in both periods had been primed to experience these things) e.g. stories many found believable like Travis Walton (who had a group of friends who were eye witnesses & remained staunch supporters even to their old age), Bob Lazar (him & his friends got arrested but have always stuck to their accounts) and yet when you look at their stories deeply, you find inconsistencies. 👽🛸 It can be broken down into three parts; 1️⃣The priming 2️⃣The claim, those who witnessed it, attested to it & those who believed 3️⃣The similar inconsistencies. (luckily now we can verify these modern claims & preserve our findings, but people in the Graeco-Roman period had many obstacles)

[@KenRobert]

Some relevant information regarding Walton: Travis and his coworkers were loggers and were about to miss a deadline that would cost them ten percent of the contract. Travis and his brother frequently talked about UFOs. NBC has just aired a popular movie about an alien abduction two weeks before during a time when there were three major networks and no cable. There’s no record of his family demonstrating concern during his five day disappearance and his brother stated, “He’s not even missing. He knows where he’s at, and I know where he’s at.” The person who administered a polygraph to him assessed it as “gross deception” and stated Walton was employing polygraph countermeasures.

[@KenRobert]

Lazar’s claims about his education and employment could not be verified. He was arrested in 1990 for running a brothel and again in 2006 for selling hazardous substances and transporting them across state lines. The schools he says he attended have no record of him doing so. Same thing with Los Alamos where he claimed to work.

[@forgetful3360]

15 minutes in and praying hard to little baby Jesus that the echo be banished from this podcast. Seems slightly better for my efforts, but...not so much....Will give it a hail Mary or two ...

[@annascott3542]

Yeah…headphones helped, which I didn’t use until almost the end 🤦‍♀.

[@ELL289]

Don’t listen if it hurts you. Everyone has the freedom to stay within the fold, or leave if necessary.

[@Scorned405]

Was Celsius 2nd century??

[@estherkessler]

Yep.

[@estherkessler]

Yep. He was...

[@tonyfrederickson6692]

im glad I watched this, now I know The Resurrection is true,thank you

[@creekwoodjoe1607]

I'm terrified. My Christian beliefs shattering, that was all I was holding on to.

[@atheologica]

Fear not. Thousands, if not millions, of us have found our way out of the darkness of superstition into the light of reality. Keep this quote in mind: “Some believers accuse skeptics of having nothing left but a dull, cold scientific world. I am left with only art, music, literature, theatre, the magnificence of nature, mathematics, the human spirit, sex, the cosmos, friendship, history, science, imagination, dreams, oceans, mountains, love and the wonder of birth. That’ll do me.” ~Lynne Kelly

[@tecomaman]

I believed in reconcilliation of all things ,there is many scriptures for it ,Romans 5 .18 ,I don't have the list now

[@starshiloh]

It’s interesting how Richard doesn’t seem to think hallucinations should be a rebuttal element in this because according to him it’s all Greco/Roman tropes anyway, so Jesus then according to him was a premeditated figure that was “dressed up” in this mythos to attract the Roman’s, Yet at 1:13:20 and 1:31:50 and 1:40:27 he does display some evidence from Roman historical sources or biographies, that in the Roman world and in that milieu, it was a common practice to pay people off to be witnesses to supposed resurrections or ascensions of some of the Caesars ect But where do we see this internal evidence of deception for Christianity? If anything it probably proves the exact opposite, the fact that over a relatively short period of time (100 to 300) years almost all Rome and emperor’s actually converted and abandoned their exalted and supposed resurrected figures (which apparently even they knew were concoctions) and joined this new apocalyptic Jewish sect known today as Christianity, tells us there was something unique and powerfully genuine about this new religion for external groups alien to the Jewish culture to begin to join.

[@atheologica]

That some people were paid off to stand as witnesses is just a supporting element of the existing trope. It doesn't require that such necessarily happened in early Christianity. It could just as easily have been rumors and legends that naturally sprung from the common mythic consciousness of the times. And I'd say that's most likely right, given the slew of other features that fall within that mythic paradigm, including the missing body trope, deification and immortalization, heavenly ascent, prodigies and darkness over the land, a divine command or send-off, etc. And there are completely non-miraculous, sociological, and political reasons for Christianity's spread and eventual success in the Greco-Roman world, including its counter-cultural appeal to women, slaves, and the downtrodden, its offer of personal salvation and eternal life (which tapped into religious impulses of the time), its exclusivity which served to lock in adherents, and its zealous evangelism. Add to that its political advantages for Roman emperors like Constantine and Theodosius, who seized upon it for unity and power, and the rest is history.

[@starshiloh]

@@atheologica Appreciate the reply, thanks, some of the non-miracle reasons for Christianity’s extensive growth even outside it’s own cultural parameters that you mentioned, are very reasonable, and I would say they are very noteworthy and positive. However, noting that syncretism can be a complex subject, I still differ with mythos in that Christianity’s rise was out of this Greco-Roman mythology mindset, all these major elements you mentioned, such as missing bodies, deification, immortalization, heavenly accent ect, are elements that I would agree in the sense that those general categories existed and even existed in some form or another long before Rome, but not that Christianity’s events were a parallel to this. Jesus’s body in contrast with Romulus for example or Asclepius did not just go missing, it went missing from the tomb only, and then as per the scriptures he allegedly rose, and was witnessed in this physical body in which he had bone and flesh and was able to eat fish and drink wine. So for example the alleged witnesses of Romulus or Aristeas (which could have been been paid off) was a type of body mirroring closer to a gnostic idea of a phantom, (see for example Roman biographies that mentioned Romulus’s post death was a translation to the gods) hence why their body went missing in the highest sense. There are even some biographical accounts that specify that Romulus after his death was never found or seen. Deification as well, good place to look is at the Caesars, most deification stories In Greece and Rome, was about significant people who rose or were exalted to a higher status among the mirage of other deities in the heavens, but they themselves were not preexistent from the beginning of time or from long ago along side the supreme God from whom they directly emanate. These are deeply entrenched in Jewish wisdom/glory/Angel of the Lord/Enoch/Metatron/motifs) 55:10 Instead the Greco-Roman’s deities were many times just miraculously born prior to birth on earth through some courtship among the gods. So Jesus’s deity was technically one of permanence, forever past and forever future. Also immortalization of Jesus was one of permanence from his forever past (as the logos, memra, Angel) and forever future after the resurrection, this is vastly different from what we find in Greco Roman mythology, Jesus’s immortalization also was one of physicality in which he would one day return to a new earth in that same physical body, I’ll leave here for now, but thanks for the response. Alex

[@atheologica]

​@@starshiloh Playing up differences in an effort to ignore the numerous and striking similarities is a common apologetic tactic that gets no sympathy from me. Meanwhile, the differences are not as wide as you make them out to be. As M. David Litwa notes, these deified men "are not just raised in their souls, but in their bodies." Romulus appears to Proculus Julius "greater than human" per Ovid, and dressed in shining armor. Per Celsus, many saw "no mere phantom, but Asclepius himself, healing, doing good, and predicting the future." Heracles' weight (gravitas) was felt upon Mt. Olympus, where he married and procreated. Their *bodies* go missing precisely because it is their *bodies* that have been taken up, deified and immortalized. Divinity entailed having a powerful, supernatural body, not just an impotent soul. Even the notion of pre-existence is found in some of these tales. Romulus relays to Proculus Julius that he was pre-existent among the gods, per Plutarch, that he only became incarnate for a time, but that it was to the gods that he returned. Ovid tells us, concerning Asclepius, "from a god you will turn to a bloodless corpse, and then to a god who was a corpse." And whether Jesus was pre-existent depends entirely on which NT text you're reading. There is no hint of this in the Synoptics. Moreover, several of the Jewish examples you listed, including Enoch and Metatron, stem from Hellenized Judaism, which are already infused with Greek metaphysics. Christianity is a Greco-Judaic phenomenon, which is composed of both Greek and Jewish motifs: It simply isn't an either/or concerning its mythic and literary provenance. Lastly, there is no evidence in the cases I've discussed of anyone being "paid off" to declare their having witnessed the post-mortem, or post-mortal, appearances of these figures. Not with Romulus, not with Aristeas, not with Asclepius. Outside of the Imperial Cult, there simply is no political motive for this. And you cannot generalize from *some* instances of this having happened to *all* or *most* instances of the motif. Frankly, your raising this objection strikes me as a cheap dodge, reaching for any possible reason to dismiss the pagan accounts. The overarching point of Dr. Miller's research remains. Christianity sprung from a Greco-Roman milieu in which the following cluster of motifs were prominent among deities and deified men: missing bodies, deification and immortalization, heavenly ascent, appearances to witnesses, prodigies and darkness over the land, a divine command or send-off, etc. That Christianity shares this cluster of motifs with its surrounding mythic and literary environs is not likely a coincidence. It has all the appearance of being a product of its time and place in history.

[@johnbollinger6080]

All the gods are the planets and sun but the solar system was different in the past before the capture of a dwarf star and it's planets which we love on one of them.

[@michaelwilson1312]

What's the proof that Livy was written before the synoptic gospels?

[@atheologica]

The fact that he lived 59 BC - AD 17.

[@michaelwilson1312]

@@atheologica are there independent accounts of those dates? Our do we get those dates from guess work?

[@epicofatrahasis3775]

​@Atheologica Guess what. Michael Jones at IP will be releasing a video soon on whether Jesus is a pagan construct.

[@atheologica]

@@epicofatrahasis3775 Great fodder for my channel. 😂

[@epicofgilgamesh9964]

​@@atheologica 😂 I hope you tear him a new one.

[@retribution999]

Justin Martyr had great faith in Jesus Christ. He chose torture and beheading rather than acknowledge the Roman God's and emperor. I don't know why this would destroy Miller's faith, it strengthens mine.

[@Nexus-jg7ev]

The question is why Justin Martyr had such strong faith in the first place, considering that he was not among the original 'witnesses' to the risen Jesus like some of Jesus' disciples or Paul. His faith was based on hearsay that he believed. I think that what made Dr Miller's faith weaken was the argumentation and justification of faith on the part of Justin. Furthermore, considering how popular and common martyrdom mythologising was among early Christians, we have to examine the sources and evidence for the martyrdom of Justin very carefully to know whether he really was martyred for his faith and was given a chance to give up on it, or whether he was just one among many victims of Roman persecution who were executed without even being given any chance to abandon their views, or whether he was martyred at all.

[@Cuffsmaster]

@@Nexus-jg7ev I was raised in a Southern Baptist faith. My faith fell apart mostly because of the lack of proof of all the claimed supernatural events of the old and new testament . Faith does not explain supernatural events, evidence is needed. If you are claiming something outside reality happened and your religion is based on it then you need proof. Faith is not fact. Belief is not evidence.

[@φαρμακεία-πρωταρχικός]

In Justin’s Apology 21. sent to one of the great Roman authorities he does openly admit to the stories being mythical just as that of the early Greek and Hellenistic characters and stories; BUT, his only defense is claiming the other mythologies as being that of “Demons”. So, I think it’s safe to say that’s some serious cognitive dissonance on Justin’s part, and at that point had just spit in the face of Roman authority’s and culture; so whether or not he recanted his testimony/belief in Christianity, he was another idiot who insulted the most powerful empire at that time. He fucked around and found out, just as that of the other “martyrs”.

[@SereneSkating-mx1cc]

I buy this 😊

[@turbobutton6311]

I think the question Dr. Miller should be asking is why these stories of gods producing offspring with mortal women and them becoming men of renown is so common in so many religions. The Bible talks about this. Jesus is also unique in that He was born of a virgin, not through a sexual act which is an important difference from the contemporary pagan demigod stories. Also, Jesus didn't claim to be a demigod, He claimed to be God. This is different than figures like Gilgamesh or Romulus. I think Dr. Miller was emotionally shaken by the collapse of his marriage and blaming his then faith in God allows him to feel less personally responsible for it. I believe he has made God his scapegoat.

[@RichardMiller-ym5jc]

I was no longer socially tethered to the religion, which bought me a degree of objectivity that few ever achieve during their research. I have been married three times. Besides my social standing with the religious community, I see no meaningful impacts here. Why attack my character? Why not look at what my research uncovered??

[@turbobutton6311]

@@RichardMiller-ym5jc It wasn’t my intent to attack your character, but convey the impression I got from your description. I rather wish I could be helpful to you. I think you’ve drawn a mistaken conclusion from the data. I think modern churches make underlying assumptions can cause people to be surprised when they fine similar concepts or even direct references to pagan literature in scripture.

[@RichardMiller-ym5jc]

@@turbobutton6311 I’ve spent my entire adult life to achieve the deepest understandings of my topics. The completion of a quality dissertation from a top-caliber school should result in the person being the single most accurately informed, knowledgeable person in history on that subject matter. I had perhaps 20 of the topmost living experts read and review drafts and proofs. Are you saying, “from my happy faith position, I am fairly certain Miller must be wrong.” Otherwise you’d need to be a field specialist truly to weigh my thesis. You’ve read my book, I presume ??

[@RichardMiller-ym5jc]

@@turbobutton6311, anyone claiming to be or regarded as son to a god was by definition a demigod. John’s Logos language merely poured on another myth from Middle Platonism, that is, the demiurgos of Mediterranean philosophy in classical antiquity, just as the early Christians described when handling that text. The term pagan you use was an anachronism. Nobody regarded the literary achievements of classical antiquity as “pagan” (Latin “hick” “unrefined” “redneck”…).

[@turbobutton6311]

The idea of the demigod is one of very ancient origin and one of great significance on the Biblical narrative. Would you consider that its presence in so many myths and scripture might be based on a common phenomenon? John’s description of Christ as the word (logos) become flesh sets up the overarching theme for his gospel, revisited plainly in chapter 6 that Christ is the true bread of life and fountain of living water that we must partake of to live. Man lives by every word that proceeds from God, Jesus being the word made flesh. It is the spiritual message John wishes to impart. The stories of men like Romulus follow the pattern of half-celestial “giants” of extreme antiquity which are tales of dominance whereas Christ’s is one of submission. This is the conclusion you draw that I believe is in error. You consider these comparative narratives instead of contrasting ones.

[@donwilson3229]

satens great helper

[@estherkessler]

What if you are wrong and going back? 😮😮😮😮

[@GurmitBSingh]

Death is nothing but change of elements configuration

[@markdeguzman6556]

Resurrection is not a myth. Scholars are just looking at limited info.

[@AWBepi]

It's easy to destroy..very hard to create... Making a living as a destroyer... You might want to choose another path. Also look up the saint thomas christian's, a group of indians who are christian who were visited by saint thomas.

[@Cuffsmaster]

Ok So how does that prove Jesus

[@annascott3542]

It’s easy to believe with blind faith & rationalizations….very hard to understand, attain knowledge and get at the truth of something. *You* might want to choose another path.

[@alancook4407]

The holy spirit is not talked about the spirit was with Jesus when he was on the cross

[@clarkemorledge2398]

As a Christian, I am just not sure why the Gospel writers could not have used these apotheosis narratives (as with Romulus) intentionally, as a matter of accommodation, believing at the same time that while the apotheosis of Romulus was not historical, the resurrection/ascension of Jesus was different, in that Jesus' resurrection WAS historically real.

[@martinecheverria5968]

I am in the same position that you are... The OT uses myths from the ancient near east to make points or to make polemics against other gods. Why can´t the NT writers do the same? Also, we do that many times with heroes and characters of hollywood. But well, I guess I´ll hace to read his book. Blessings from Argentina my brother, may the grace of Jesus be with you

[@atheologica]

Clarke Morledge, I want to start by noting that your comment is expressed respectfully and without any hint of animosity. As much nastiness as I tend to get from Christians on my channel, you should know that I appreciate your comparatively kinder tone. I am perfectly fine with you taking the approach that the Gospel authors are simply dressing up Jesus' resurrection with the language and decor of Greco-Roman apotheosis. As I try to make clear, I'm not here to deconvert anybody. Rather, I am presenting research and defending nonbelief. But defending nonbelief does not constitute asking believers *not* to believe. I think everyone should be free to believe and practice whatever they want, so long as they aren't harming anyone. That said, I will comment on why it is that I, personally, do not take your approach. It does strike me as special pleading to say that, in every other instance of apotheosis or translation, we are dealing with mythology, whereas this *one* case is truly historical. Occam's Razor comes to bear on this, as well. It seems rather ad hoc to say that either God or the NT authors were utilizing well-known mythic tropes to express a true reality, versus the simpler notion that this is just more of the same. Not to mention, it is remarkably coincidental that such a story *just* *happens* to blossom from the *very* cultural and historical milieu where such themes were prominent. That, I'd say, tells us just about everything we need to know. But again, feel free to take the C.S. Lewis approach of regarding Christianity as the "True Myth." For us skeptics, however, it doesn't quite cut the mustard.

[@Cuffsmaster]

"Jesus was different, in that Jesus' resurrection WAS historically real." There is not historical proof of the virgin birth or sometimes called the rape of the 13 year old girl. There is no proof he jumped out of the grave after 3 or 4 days. There is no proof the empty grave claimed to be his is actually his. There is no proof the Earth stood still when he died. There is no proof he turned water into wine. Where is no proof he walked on water. There is no proof he met the devil on a mountain. There is no proof he cast demons into a pig. There is no proof he was of .... Well you get the picture. The bible is not self proving. There might of been a person named Jesus that thought he was the son of god but hey that happens a lot.

[@paulchiuk]

I very much enjoyed this interview. This sews in me an understanding of Paul and the construction of the Christian religion. However, the mythic and supernatural packaging don't touch my Jesus, and the teachings that, even as a child, read to me as spiritual science and truth. In each gospel the resurrection account seems tucked in at the end (not many pages of writing). I think of it like this: when the rulers and elites kill a hero of the people; make a martyr from a freedom fighter, then the best message to give out is that your John Lennon or your Martin Luther King...are multiplied a thousand fold in the spirit of community, and more than that; John and Martin are coming back, like Jesus. The body dies (everybody does) but the spirit is indestructible, and the people who have lived in the light ascend into heaven; escaping this mortal coil for good. This all makes perfect sense unless you hold on to the idea that life is a meaningless material mush and that we can just do what the hell we like. Storytellers and poets are telling the truth.

[@Cuffsmaster]

@@paulchiuk Without the supernatural being true he is not a god. He is only a man and like many others of that period claimed to be the Messiah. He was not the only one killed during that time period claiming to be a god. Many people made important writing to guide peoples behavior without being a god. But there is not any proof it was actually his words anyway as they were recorded years after his death by others. It could all be fake. In addition, if the supernatural events are not true then any reference he made to knowledge of the supernaturla are just b/s or from a delusional mind. If the supernatural events are not true and they are not that pushes him out of the holly reigh.

[@LeonidSvizzera]

2000 years of basically -nothing -tragedy -myth.

[@stumpy31952]

George MacDonaald

[@jamesboswellii2034]

Anyone who does not list such objectively inclined scholars as E. P. Sanders, Paula Fredriksen, Bart Ehrman, John P. Meier, and Dale C. Allison among the more important historical Jesus scholars today is definitely biased toward mythic claims alone.

[@JamesMorris-l8b]

There was 11 men who witnessed the resurrection. They believed it 10 died grussum deaths. John was boiled in oil and miraculously emerged unscathed. Would you die for your lie?

[@RichardMiller-ym5jc]

How could you possibly achieve even the tiniest confidence that “John was boiled in oil” ?? Here us all we historians can gather from reliable sources (not wild legends) Deaths of the 12 Disciples Judas Iscariot - suicide by hanging John died of old age Peter crucified as criminal leader of the group responsible for burning down over half of the city of Rome. (Paul also) Andrew - no reliable sources. Eus says Acts of Andrew is not credible Thomas - no reliable sources. Death unknown by Eusebius and no legends until mid-fourth century Philip - no reliable sources. Acts of Philip late fourth century legends Matthew died of natural causes Bartholomew - no reliable accounts James the Lesser - unknown cause of death Simon the Zealot - unknown cause of death Matthais - unknown cause of death James the Greater - Herod Agrippa had him executed by the sword as leader of a group disturbing the religious establishment, threatening the temple, insulting the cult leaders.. following Stephen

[@RichardMiller-ym5jc]

So, to turn this around.. consider your own commitment, a faith predicated on nearly zero objective study or critical research.. yet here you are, ready to take on field experts as a social agent for your cultic beliefs. Irrational religious devotion is commonplace, not unique to Christian origins.

[@JamesMorris-l8b]

@@RichardMiller-ym5jc My faith is also boulsterd by immutable facts. The Bible for instance, has prophesies, events predicted years sometimes centuries in advance. Oh yes with many detractors. That fell silent when the sciences proved them correct. Recently I was reminded that the Bible has been and continues to be the best selling book year after year after year.

[@RichardMiller-ym5jc]

@@JamesMorris-l8b well.. few things. I do not know of any prophecies in the classical Hebrew that predicted anything about Jesus. Go back are read Isaiah end to end. You’ll discover, like Nostradamus, that a later writer can claim just about anyone in history “fulfills” this or that set of verses when taken out of context. All of the passages cited by the early Christians were wildly grabbed out of context. A contextual reading of Isaiah anticipates nothing about the deity sending his son to gather disciples, get arrested, and then die in such a way as to end the temple cult. More or less people reading this or that book goes no distance toward proving its veracity. In fact, such an observation works against its truth claims. Those least knowledgeable on the subject tend to disagree with those most knowledgeable.

[@DrugsForRobots]

Richard C. Miller's argument that seems to be that there's nothing special about the character of Jesus Christ because earlier stories of resurrections prove that it was a common trope used in the apotheosis of heroes, and that this debunks(?) the story of Christ's resurrection, when it should go to illustrate exactly how Christ was resurrected in perfectly logical, rational, non-supernatural, albeit metaphorical terms. The Greeks and Romans "Immortalized" their heroes in plays, poetry, myths, and legends, and through the oral tradition and writing. The character of Jesus Christ effectively has achieved "eternal life" because it exists in the minds of billions of individuals and is still spreading. This process has been called "the Great Commission" -- and in effect has kept the memory of this individual alive and caused 1/4 of the world to exalt him. Miller and Bennett are actually giving support of the resurrection of Christ in non-literalist, non-fundamentalist terms.

[@Cuffsmaster]

Got to prove it

[@DrugsForRobots]

@@Cuffsmaster Prove what? The man called Jesus who probably was a real person really died, but his story lived on, and in a sense, so did he. Ergo, the man appeared "again-standing" anastasis i.e. resurrected.

[@possumface2425]

How sad. Destroyed a marriage through an absurd obsession.

[@atheologica]

How sad that this is all you took from it.

[@possumface2425]

That is not all I took from this discussion but it struck me as symbolic of the destructive force that is religion. Such a selfish act is also a betrayal of trust and I feel this women’s frustration and rage. Anyway thanks for the great work.

[@atheologica]

@@possumface2425 I owe you an apology. I mistakenly thought that was a dig at Dr. Miller. I see what you're saying now. Thanks for the comment, and please accept my sincere apology.

[@sp1ke0kill3r]

But then what do you want for $5, Constellation Pegasus, a real answer ;)

[@samthomas9468]

The author says he is excited to conduct this interview. I think he will be more excited when he will meet the Jesus Christ at the final judgement seat!

[@rayrod4218]

I have a difficult question: If the Christian God is not real then how is satanic worship real by casting a ritual and somehow obtaining an object of monetary need? (this just an example to give context of my understanding of "real"). This is weird paradox.

[@annascott3542]

Do we have any solid proof of that actually ever having happened? We have claims that it might have happened. Correlation is not causation.

[@rayrod4218]

@Anna Scott I'm not sure if there's anything concrete, but when I suggest to an atheist to try a statanic ritual for themselves, I'm told "no" out of fear. Which doesn't make sense to be afraid if God is not real.

[@annascott3542]

@@rayrod4218 ya that’s a fair point. I was about to answer bad juju, and then was like wait… yeah you got me there.

[@annascott3542]

@@rayrod4218 one hears stories and they never end well. Let’s put it that way.

[@annascott3542]

@@rayrod4218 that’s enough for me to it. Whether it’s real or not.

[@jesusdeity2010]

1. "Let us make man according to our image and likeness and let them have authority....": That would be....Christlikeness! For Christ is the exact image of the invisible God. 2. Mankind fell. The image and likeness of God in man got lost. That's the mess this world is in. But...: 3. As Christ, God returns the divine life of the ages back to you-manity. For free, because of love, purpose, destiny. "I have come to give YOU Zoë (divine) life in abundance. It pleases the Father to give YOU the Kingdom. Freely I give you My Kingdom. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, freely i give, freely share. I WILL send Holy Soirit, He WILL be IN you, guide you into truth and give you explosive power. You will understand that the Father is in Me and I am in you." "Those that receive this abundance of grace, this free gift of righteousness will walk in Zoë/divine life". How do we receive? We are mesmerized by what we see and welcome Holy Spirit to change us in to Christlikeness. The Gospel: a restoration of a man/woman, back to the image of God. Changed by His very own Spirit working in you. Changing you from the inside out. An outpouring from within you. So wherever you are at in your life, you have great purpose in life. Walking in the same divine unselfish love and glory/power as Christ. Growing in to Him in all things. Key-understanding: Christ represents all of humanity. So, you too!! In Him you already are completed! Co-cruisified, co-raised, co-seated, transferred, made perfect. You start where He finished: "You and I are one. He who meets you meets Me. The Father is in Me and I am in you". What a God, what a love. He came full circle. Let's love on someone today. ❤️🎁🎊💪🔥💃🕺

[@brisadelcastillo2840]

The crucifix fish proves beyond doubt that the crucifixion happened, how it happened, and that the resurrection happened. "THE CRUCIFIX FISH TESTIFIES" look it up.

[@christopherhamilton3621]

LOL!

[@sjebling]

Terrible interview. Makes one useful point every 20 minutes. Rambles on and on and on.

[@Son-Of-Righteousness]

It's not a fable. I still rise from the dead. I'm Osiris. Amun Ra post flood. When I was Yahshua, i was proving who I am. The story's been twisted along the way but I'm the origin of it. I've even offered to bring you all back into TRUTH but you refuse to listen long enough to understand. I'm the incarnation of the sun God among you. The light bearer. The Lucifer. Hasatan the Adversary because you're breaking my heavenly Father's covenant constitution. The covenant isn't a religion. It's this king of kings constitution to bring my people the prosperity and blessings from the Holy Lord enthroned in the sun. I'm the SON OF.

[@Cuffsmaster]

hun??

[@Son-Of-Righteousness]

@@Cuffsmaster I don't think I'm anyone's hun. More like Adversary unless you understand and join me. Many are called. Few are chosen.

[@Cuffsmaster]

@@Son-Of-Righteousness sure buddy - take that long walk back to reality.

[@Son-Of-Righteousness]

@@Cuffsmaster If you don't understand. It's you who's needing a long journey back to the TRUTH. I'm the son of man. The suffering servant of the Lord. The despised and REJECTED one. The chief builder the builders rebelled against and rejected. Your father Sol. Amen Ra. The reason you blind hypocrit fks say amen. Means "SO BE IT" because I'm the word made flesh. The king of kings.

[@annascott3542]

Try to remember to swallow next time they bring you your meds.

[@zoe._.345]

Hopeless people 😭😭😭

[@φαρμακεία-πρωταρχικός]

How so?

[@thuscomeguerriero]

Scholar is a funny guy. Paul met Peter, James and John. Paul claims his Gospel is no different than that coming out of the Church in Jerusalem. That means the proclamation of the resurrection of Jesus came, not from "cleverly devised fables.." written by men much like our hero being interviewed, but directly from the men who were his disciples. Once again mythicism fails

[@iwasjustintrance]

Oh man, what was Dr. Richard Miller thinking!? 😂 I mean, the Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it!!! 😂😂😂

[@thuscomeguerriero]

@@iwasjustintrance Oh dear..such a lack of critical thinking among mythicists. It's not "The Bible" I'm appealing to. I'm appealing to Paul. Good luck finding support for the idea that Paul's claim to have met the "Pillars" of the Church in Jerusalem didnt happen. That puts the origin of Christianity squarely on the shoulders of those first disciples of Jesus. So sad 😢

[@φαρμακεία-πρωταρχικός]

⁠@@thuscomeguerriero So sad, you clearly lack the critical thinking skills to understand the difference between a claim, and evidence for the claim. Paul CLAIMED to have spoken to the apostles, so that can be thrown out since he was speaking to illiterates in Corinth at the time who clearly didn’t think twice about his misuse of the Torah and Tenakh. The Synoptic gospels are anonymous. We don’t have any of the writings from any of the actual apostles. Not to mention that eye witness testimony,(including the so called 500 that Paul CLAIMED witnessed the risen Christ, of which we have no writings of), can be completely thrown out as hearsay. The evidence is shit to put it ever so lightly. 😮‍💨

[@thuscomeguerriero]

@@φαρμακεία-πρωταρχικός one topic at a time my friend. Now..zero in here on this point. You're not going to find any support for the notion Paul didnt meet the so-called "Pillars" of the church (Peter, John, and James).. It's just not going to happen. Therefore, we have a first-hand witness in Paul to the men who were followers of Jesus from the beginning of his work. Therefore, this scholar is a bonafide baffoon if he believes the resurrection claims surrounding Jesus BEGAN anywhere outside of Judea..and more specifically outside of the proclamation of the disciples of Jesus themselves.

[@epicofatrahasis3775]

​@one thus come If Jesus was the "son of God", can you explain why he was a failed end times preacher?