The Ride Cymbal playing of Dave Tough, Gene Krupa and George Wettling

[@bAgRiMoIrEsS.4]

Great video, loved it. Ride cymbal soundsgreat ,well presented,passionate. All my favorite drummers. 🙄😳🤓

[@kevindorn]

Thank you!

[@booj101]

This is a great lesson, thanks! Three ride cymbal beats: classic, changing, and quarters. Great insights into the old drummers, I appreciate this!

[@kevindorn]

Thanks, Ethan! Glad you enjoyed it!

[@swingyoucats]

Kevin Dorn is in the moment, and he makes the moment so wonderful. The thoughts near the end are priceless.

[@Avaloctus]

Thanks for another great video !

[@kevindorn]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!

[@Congleton_Music]

Excellent video!

[@kevindorn]

Thanks, Kevin!

[@johnpetters]

Very interesting and thought provoking, as usual.

[@kevindorn]

Thanks, John!

[@floorted]

Nice video!

[@MARKMANIATT]

Great video Kevin.Give a mention to Cliff Leeman’s right calf and trusty flask on the Condon poster😄

[@kevindorn]

Best album cover ever! Thanks, Mark!

[@michaelwaskiewicz1]

Wonderful video and explainations!! I'm so glad to have these videos as a reference. Thank, Kevin!!

[@kevindorn]

Thanks, Mike! I really appreciate that!

[@bernardflegar8017]

Wonderful! Thank you, Kevin!

[@kevindorn]

Thank you, Bernard!

[@macvoutie]

Another great video Kevin. My guess is we could go further into understanding why a particular drummer does what he does by studying their motion and their grip. I notice (and I'm sure you and many others noticed this to) that Gene played the ride cymbal with his index finger on top of the stick. Now to compare that to the other two mentioned here would be near impossible given the lack of film on them but my guess is Dave really let the stick bounce. I would have to listen to some records and hear what part of the ride pattern he accents on tunes like "Apple Honey" to see if I'm on the right track. Ya got me thinkin' Hahaha

[@kevindorn]

I agree; in addition to the rhythms they played on the cymbal, they each had their own individual technique. For whatever it's worth, I think you are indeed on the right track because to my ear, Dave Tough sounds like he's using more rebound and Gene Krupa sounds like he's articulating each note a little more. Gene would also do that deadsticking thing you mention with his index finger on the stick, which is the opposite of a rebound stroke. Thanks for watching and for your comments!

[@lorenschoenberg7486]

So interesting!

[@kevindorn]

Thanks, Loren!

[@vipermad358]

Great job, Kev!

[@kevindorn]

Thanks, Mike!

[@jonathanstout6618]

Request: how pre-bop drummers played ride patterns versus how bop and later drummers did. (I've often suspected it has to do with the shifting of the emphasis from 1 and 3, like when one opens a hi hat, to emphasizing the backbeat). Thoughts?

[@jonathanstout6618]

Oh, and of course, this and all of your videos are fantastic. Here's hoping we get to (finally) play together again sooner rather than later!

[@kevindorn]

@@jonathanstout6618 Thanks, Jonathan! I hope so, too! That's such a great question about the ride patterns in different eras and I find it very difficult to answer. There can be so much variety. For instance, I've heard Art Blakey accent beats 2 and 4 on the cymbal, Don Lamond accent 1 and 3, and Elvin Jones accent the AND of 2 and 4. I think they all sound almost as different from each other as any of them do to, say, George Wettling. Then there's someone like Cozy Cole, who had a very unusual ride beat. Connie Kay's ride beat sounds closer to Cozy's to me than any other drummer in any era of jazz. Billy Higgins also had a somewhat similar ride beat, I feel. But those two drummers didn't sound at all like Cozy Cole or like someone from Cozy's era. It becomes very hard for me to really pinpoint what makes it one style or another. There may indeed be a connection with the hi-hat, as you say. One broad generalization I can hear is that the later drummers tended to play the skip note at a lower volume relative to the rest of the pattern, compared to the earlier drummers. But, as with anything, there are so many exceptions to this. I'm sorry I can't give you a better answer, but I'll give it some more thought. Thanks so much for watching and for the kind words! Hope we get to play and hang soon!

[@jonathanstout6618]

​@@kevindorn That's all great info. And with the backbeat emphasis, I was thinking more in defaults and generalities (and straight ahead orthodoxy) than about specific players, but I've also noticed that "and" emphasis in some later players as well. And it might not just be the ride, but the combined impact of the whole. And it even when we notice trends or characteristics, it's never so cut and dry, of course. But, I suppose what I really need, as a bandleader, is a video I can show drummers who come from playing straight-ahead, so they approach pre-bop styles better. I have my own suggestions and tips/tricks, but I'd really love to hear how you conceptualize something like a small-group swing gig differently than a straight-ahead gig, or a trad-ier gig versus a straight-ahead gig. I know when a non-swing drummer ends up stuck in my band, I've suggested they avoid the ride cymbal because it wasn't as prevalent during the swing-era (though, CLEARLY they did ride cymbals, just not like the way a straight-ahead player does). I've also suggested not "playing popcorn" on the snare, my dismissive term for the constant comping on the snare drum while playing ride. Hal once suggested to me to keep a light quarter-note pulse on the snare while riding a cymbal as way to avoid the "swing-a-ding-ding" feeling of post-swing ride playing. Hal also mentioned how thedefault swing-era hi hat playing would be to push 1 and 3 bit, not a heavy 2 and 4 accent as you'll find many straight ahead drummers attempting to play a swing tune. I'm sure that there are examples of swing-era players doing these things I said to avoid, because, it's never that cut and dry, but I know there is some value to them because they do have some help. None of this is a substitute for doing the work of listening and practicing, and really KNOWING the material. But it'd be helpful to have guide to what to look for when approaching the material from another context (and probably give them a head start when doing that listening work).

[@kevindorn]

​@@jonathanstout6618 Another thing I've noticed and was recently discussing with a drummer friend is that the earlier drummers tended to play the hi-hat much softer with their foot on 2 and 4 when playing the ride cymbal, compared to most of the later players. This is a really good request and I will give it some thought and try to come up with something that might be useful. Thanks, man!

[@jonathanstout6618]

@@kevindorn Cheers, thanks!

[@dretety1]

The thing is quite simple, these guys played patterns to achieve great results from the people they were backing, so how many times did Dave or George back Willie Smith, or how many times did Gene back the Herman band or how many time did George back either.. It's the feel and the way these guys wanted to produce the best from the group they were a part of.

[@paulegron7561]

Great video, Kevin! Lots of food for thought there. Let's all put that left hand in the pocket for a minute and face it: this is topic. One other fingerprint that every great drummer leaves all over their beat is exactly where they place the skip note (when they choose to play one). Tighter towards the 1 and 3 (like Dave Tough and others) for more intensity or looser (like Nick Fatool - and Billy Higgins) for a slinkier feel. And then, as you mention below, the relative emphasis (I don't want to go so far as to say "accent") of each note: 2s and 4s emphasised, 1s and 3s, or the skips (Shadow Wilson, Elvin Jones). "The ride beat is the easiest and the most difficult thing a drummer will ever play" -Shelly Mann

[@kevindorn]

Great points, Paul! That Shelly Manne quote is so true!

[@krupadrum]

👌

[@TcheddyG]

High five!

[@Bigsbeee]

Is that a 20'' ride Kevin - Does the tape really tame the wash ?

[@kevindorn]

It's an 18" and it's fairly thin, so I find the tape focuses the sound a bit.

[@musopaul5407]

Did these guys even use the ride cymbal? It's mostly hi-hat and snare drum for their time-keeping. The ride cymbal doesn't really come in until the late 30s and Kenny Clarke and Max Roach.

[@kevindorn]

Actually they used the ride cymbal quite extensively. In fact, one of the earliest recordings of a ride cymbal being played is by Gene Krupa in 1930 on "I'll Be A Friend With Pleasure" with Bix Beiderbecke (the earliest example I know is Ben Pollack in 1928 on "Room 1411"). Also I think it's important to point out that these three drummers lived beyond the 1930s and sounded great and played creatively and in the moment their entire lives. I see no reason to link them only to one short period of their careers, anymore than we would only listen to Max Roach in the 1940s. To hear examples of what I'm talking about in this video, check out Dave Tough with Bud Freeman And His Famous Chicagoans in 1940 and Jack Teagarden's Big Eight of the same year; George Wettling in the 1950s with Eddie Condon (Bixieland, The Roaring Twenties); and Gene Krupa on any of his recordings for Verve Records in the 1950s (Krupa Rocks, Here Comes Gene Krupa, Big Noise From Winnetka). These are in fact some of my favorite recordings of these great drummers.

[@musopaul5407]

@@kevindorn Thanks, Kevin, that's very interesting and informative. I didn't know that about Tough and Wettling. I love Dave Tough but I don't know any of his recordings after 1940, likewise with George Wettling. I do know some of Krupa's recordings from the 50s and 60s and don't like them very much. I don't know how you feel about him, but I think he got worse as he got older, so I've never listened closely to his later work, actually partly because he uses the ride and it doesn't feel to me like he really knows how to use it. For my own part, I've made a study of ride cymbal playing (which was what attracted me to your video) from Max Roach on, as there seems to be a lineage from him, up through Elvin, Tony and Jack up to Bill Stewart. However, I will look into those recordings you mentioned. As so often, the history of anything is generally a lot more complicated and nuanced than we think, and it takes a specialist like yourself to set us straight!

[@kevindorn]

@@musopaul5407 Personally I love Gene Krupa's playing in the 50s and Wettling, to me, was at his best in that era. It's all great stuff and of course all the drummers you mentioned are great as well. Can't go wrong with any of them. Thanks for watching and for your kind comments!

[@musopaul5407]

@@kevindorn You're welcome. Thanks for your work. I learned something new!

[@dretety1]

One last thing (i think i take too much of your time) but as a none drummer could you demonstrate what is ment by Gene playing many singles..single strokes, it would help me understand better what is ment by that phrase.

[@kevindorn]

Single strokes are one beat with each hand, alternating: RIGHT, LEFT, RIGHT, LEFT, etc. Gene Krupa was a master of single strokes. A few examples are his two breaks on "Don't Be That Way" from the Benny Goodman 1938 Carnegie Hall concert and his breaks on the original recording of "Drum Boogie." I hope that's helpful! I have more videos in mind to make about Gene Krupa and I'll try to get into some of this in further detail. Thanks for watching!

[@markehm941]

you would do better to improve the audio quality of an otherwise insightful presentation

[@kevindorn]

Not long after I made this video, I put up some acoustic panels. Hopefully that helped a bit. Thanks for watching!