The Rise and Fall of the Penn Central

Howdy! :D
This week, we return to the United States and June 1970, where after years of poor management, stringent regulation and a loss of market to air and motor transport, the Penn Central, a gigantic railroad formed through the merger of two companies with completely different personalities and methods, collapsed into what was the largest bankruptcy in history at the time, but in its fall from grace highlighted how the over-regulation of the system had led to an inability for all of the railroad firms to compete.
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References:
- Rush Loving Jr. - Trains Magazine (and his respective sources)
- Wikipedia (and its respective references)

[@jamescooley7849]

My dad started as a signalman for the New York Central, through the Penn Central merger,and into the Conrail years before he passed away. I model all three on my model railroad in his honor 🎖

[@sarjim4381]

Given the regulatory environment, this merger never had a chance. There was too much duplication of trackage, too many secondary branches, and too many employees for the tonnage being moved. If deregulation came before the Penn Central, it may have had a chance.

[@packr72]

It took the RRs over ten years from the passing of the Staggers Act to fully grasp what it meant. PC never had a chance.

[@braysfinds7479]

Not to mention the two main railroads merged were furious business rivals.

[@dknowles60]

The NYC had a great chance. it was the Fed gov that made the mess. the New haven and Prr never had a chance. Al pearlman did every thing he could to get the NYC out of the merger.

[@dknowles60]

@@packr72 Not Standy Crane. he move conrail real fast

[@dknowles60]

@@braysfinds7479 The Prr was not much of a business Rival. it was broke since the end of WW2 could not take of its tracks had way to many workers and management people had only 1 hump yard needed 4 tracks to move the same # of trains as the NYC could move with 2 tracks. The Prr needed the NYC more then the NYC needed the PRR

[@mbrproductions160]

American Viewer here, Its really cool to see you review a fallen American Railroad, I thought you only did the UK and Europe! Great Video!

[@London-Rail]

We in the UK cover a lot besides our our own lines! Last year I covered the Milwaukee Road's Rockies and Cascades Divisions in seven parts! variably.uk/the-milwaukee-road/ Have also written on the proposed changes to the South Shore railroad variably.uk/2020/09/01/south-shore-line-at-michigan-city/ Loved Ruairidh MacVeigh's presentation on the Penn Central! Wont be competing with him though!

[@hjones3056]

He has done quite a few 👌

[@packr72]

One correction, N&W steam ended in 1960. Long term steam was not gonna get much better, but N&W locomotives performed well compared to the 1st Gen diesels.

[@OriginalBongoliath]

Steam kept going on many short lines throughout the South and Midwest. The last revenue steam locomotive not involving tourist/heritage railroads was finally retired in 1986.

[@aidenteszke9000]

@@OriginalBongoliath Any info about that operation?

[@iankemp1131]

The N&W was a highly efficient steam operation. As late as 1950 they introduced streamlined maintenance procedures with rapid turnarounds well in advance of UK practice (A.J.Powell). Given they were based in a coal-producing area, it made sense to carry on with steam a bit longer. Similarly in New Zealand the South Island, with indigenous coal reserves, kept steam well after the North Island had converted steam to oil-burning and then replacement by diesels. However, if these local factors are taken away, diesels' energy conversion ratio from fuel is always much higher than steam engines.

[@monke3842]

Former n&w employees have claimed that steam ran well into the 60s past 1960

[@BitmappedWV]

Agreed, N&W operating steam longer than most is not really a slight on N&W. Coal was the primary product they hauled, they owned lots of coal-producing property, and had invested in modern high-efficiency steam engines up through the 1950s. N&W was very profitable and PRR's income from its shares helped to keep it afloat.

[@mauwalker]

What’s interesting is that the late-1990s Conrail breakup essentially undid the Penn Central merger. Most of the old NYC trackage went to CSX, and most of the old PRR system went to the Norfolk Southern.

[@stuartaaron613]

Al Pearlman of the NYC had actually wanted a merger of the NYC with the C&O, and suggested that Pennsy merge with the N&W. The Conrail breakup essentially did that.

[@dknowles60]

@@stuartaaron613 only 40% of the x Prr remain. very little left of it west of pittsburg Pa. over 75% of the X NYC remain

[@sweetmyth2537]

@@dknowles60 have any sources on that. just wondering

[@dknowles60]

@@sweetmyth2537 Google . google maps. you had had to been at least 15 years old in 1970 to know that. Prr had been going broke since the End of WW2. The Prr trackage wAS IN VERY POOR shape in 1970. The NCY trackage was in good shape. The Workers at the PRR did the best they could but the Prr had very bad management. Most of the Money Spent went to fix the Prr side up the Prr neeeded 4 tracks from Nyc to pittsburb to move trains. The NYC need 2 tracks to move trains from NYC to Chicage it was CTC push buttion. the Prr was a interlocking tower every 20 miles. their trains needed pushers to get over the horse shoe curve. the NYc only needed 2 GP 40's to move their trains. the Prr needed a lot more. the Prr no longer goes from pittsburg pa to chicago. its a short line from crestline oh to chicago. The prr is gone from dayton oh to terre haute In. to much more to post

[@sweetmyth2537]

@@dknowles60 sorry I thought you where talking about X Prr and NYC equipment thx for the info tho

[@spartan117zm]

The US Gov: We have a free market! We are a free, capitalistic country! Also the US Gov: intentionally hampered the railroads and their businesses while also providing subsidies to airlines and billions of dollars for the construction of the interstates because Congress was firmly in the oil industry’s pocket.

[@janmelantu7490]

Congress is always mad that they have to subsidize Amtrak, yet are more than happy to dump money on Airports and Highways

[@lwilton]

It should be noted that all of the western railroads (UP, SP, etc) and many of the Eastern ones came into existence primarily as the result of government subsidies. What the RRs were complaining about was that their subsidies had ended and the new guy on the block that could compete with them was now getting subsidies instead. All established companies complain about new companies that can compete with them coming into existence, and try any underhanded trick they can to subvert or prevent loss of market share. The big problem here was not so much the subsidies to the new travel modes, but that the ICC paralyzed the railroads and prevented them making changes that would have allowed them to compete. And the ICC originally came about because of the really nasty cutthroat competition and business practices the early railroads engaged in. So in effect the RRs killed themselves with their unsocial business practices coming back to haunt them.

[@packr72]

I mean let’s not ignore the government gave huge amounts of land away for free to the RRs. Not to mention the hugely profitable Mail business that kept passenger trains afloat.

[@nicholasreid5327]

Ah yes, the oil industry wanted to put the railroads that predominantly used diesel powered locomotives out of business. Because that totally makes sense as a decision that a corporation that wants to make as much money as possible would do. No, it was that the public and governmental perception of the railroads was one decades out of date, that of the monopolistic railroads run by the "robber barons" that had to be cut down to size. And the railroads did a poor job of communicating their plight to the public and Congress, mainly due to their perceived need to save face.

[@janmelantu7490]

@@nicholasreid5327 Cars and Trucks use more Gasoline and Diesel than Locomotives, and Rubber and Asphalt are more Petroleum products. Road Vehicles consume far more Petrochemicals

[@WilliamHBaird-eq2hp]

Penn Central had the greatest Locomotive Roster of all time (With UP a close 2nd). I count myself blessed to have seen Penn Central in Buffalo, NY as a kid in the 1970's!

[@MarceloBenoit-trenes]

There were some items not covered in the video: 1) that commuter RR´s mostly went to the states (with some exceptions) 2) That the NEC track went mostly to Amtrak (and to NY and MA) 3) The track taxation that was unfair, as roads and airports are not taxed.

[@jondorthebrinkinator]

6:30 Flash forward 35+ years and CSX and NS split up Conrail, NS taking the old PRR lines and CSX taking the old NYC lines. Better late than never.

[@rodneykantorski736]

Al Perlman was right

[@s.kirtivasen5752]

👏👏👏 appreciate your efforts to make such amazing less heard mini documentaries.👏👏👏

[@solodatemaru]

I think the slowest merger approval was James J Hill trying to get his railroads merged into one company. He owned the Great Northern Railway (of the US), the Northern Pacific Railroad, and the Burlington Route (there was also the Spokane, Portland, and Seattle which was jointly owned by the Great Northern and Northern Pacific so we have railroads owning railroads owned by the same guy). The plan to merge these four companies into the one railroad lasted for decades starting in 1901 (before the SP&S was founded in 1905) and ended in 1970 when it was finally approved leading to the Burlington Northern Railroad. It took so long the Hill had been dead for decades and Burlington Northern wasn't even the original name they had planned on.

[@zyancuerdo8367]

Dead for decades is an understatement

[@raymondpaller6475]

Don't let a rational transportation idea get in the way of a good grist for populist yakking.

[@raymondpaller6475]

Great Northern Pacific was originally the merger name; somebody got wise and realized that the Burlington and its Zephyrs were so well known to everybody that the more famous Burlington name was included instead. Or at least the story I read.

[@panniertankboy8751]

When it comes to the rivalry between the Pennsy and the Central, I always point my favorite quote from "The Wreck of the Penn Central" to show just how ingrained it was in each company's culture. "Before the merger the highest-ranked Jew in the 60,000-employee Pennsylvania Railroad was an accountant. Roman Catholics also were notably absent from its upper echelons. The Central had a broader ethnic mix. An Irish executive at the Central was said to have complained; 'I was brought up to hate Protestants and the Pennsylvania Railroad. After this [merger], I've got to love them both.'" (pages 97-98)

[@iankemp1131]

Really fascinating, a very clear explanation of a situation I didn't really know about. Not sure one can call it the Rise and Fall of the Penn Central - more like Decline and Fall!

[@ohiovalleyrailfan]

Never thought I'd see an American railroad documentary on this channel! Being a PC fan, I can say that this information is more or less about 95% correct. Keep it up!

[@611Anime]

The Norfolk & Western was officially dieselized on May 7, 1960.

[@smwca123]

Except for the Virginian, which N&W had acquired the year before; the VGN electrification lasted until June 30, 1962.

[@alanthefisher]

Great video on a truely monumental story. Each of those railroads in themselves could be a 20min video

[@mbrproductions160]

Is that a hint for a new video from you? lol

[@briandynamite7942]

Why do I feel like you both throughly enjoyed this video, but also hated it with a burning fury.

[@OskarOH]

Great video as always. Just one little detail, at 7:13, that's a locomotive of the Delaware & Hudson Railway, not the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western.

[@Will_RM]

I was just about to post the same mistake in the video. The paint scheme and livery of the DL&W RR was carried over to the Erie & Lackawanna RR with Them just keeping the "Star" type logo of the Erie RR. D&H RR was completely different.

[@haiti222]

Yes, you are right. When the Erie and the Delaware Lackawanna merged, they used the paint scheme of the Lackawanna and the slightly modified logo of the Erie. You can see the Phoebe Snow, the Lackawanna's marquis passenger train here- kzbin.info/www/bejne/rqOyeXatpMl7q5Y

[@Will_RM]

@@haiti222 Thanks for the link, I live walking distance from the Lackawanna Cutoff in New Jersey, I have many books on the railroad. Here's another look of Phoebe Snow, showing off the train, not in color as it was made in 1903 by Thomas Edison, it's a modern day advertisment, promoting the Lackawanna RR, but from the past, and possibly the first of it's kind. www.loc.gov/item/00694288/

[@russrh]

Love this. Would like to see the Milwaukee Road covered with the pacific extension

[@blueberrypirate3601]

And the Katy Missouri Kansas Texas Railroad

[@johnnyjames7139]

Milwaukee Road never should have built the pacific extension.

[@trashrabbit69]

Amazing video, a really good look as to the desperate and anxious circumstances of the 70s and the so-called Malaise Era. This time period has always been one of intense fascination for me, both in the ways of the daily lives of Americans pulling through the bleakness, and the consequences of the policies and processes we enacted across society have to this day. Below are some of my two cents... One strange thing I've always noticed about the story of the Penn Central is that weird politicized focus on the factors of regulation the ICC put in place that led to the slow deterioration of the rail lines as different mediums began to pop up. It's an incredibly easy narrative to follow, the regulatory structure bad, corporation good. But in that it's also really easy to lose sight of the much broader issues within the corporate structure and the environments surrounding it that led to the demise of what was once the face of American railroading. I'm really glad you brought up the unusual conflicts between leadership both within the levels of the Penn Central and ICC and between the PRR and NYC heads respectively in their attitudes towards the future of their entities and the actions taken in the meantime to address their concerns. In some ways, I think we're starting to see this happen again, but in a much more abstracted scale. Reason being that such railroads, trucking companies, and airlines are now going towards such largesse and corporate bloat in these deregulated sectors again, and with potentially less ability for local and federal governments to protect the economy if such large collapses occur again. Even with the unions, employees in the corporations such as UP, BNSF, CSX or otherwise haven't much say in how the activities and issues over the daily service of the railroads are conducted, and thus are almost all at the behest of the shareholders and chairmen of their respective boards. Negotiations over how company policy affects the lines and the workers and customers on them become less important as these large contractual obligations are fulfilled by large and incredibly wealthy businesspeople and organizations. We can already see signs of this when it comes to the massive mergers of the past 10-20 years, the smaller and smaller timeframes put on basic safety like car inspection times, PSR and the destruction of hump yards in lieu of increasing focus on car velocity vs general carload, or the poor communication between the railroads and their customers, leading to massive demurrage charges against smaller companies for their lack of ability to properly set up for railroads to pick up their cargo. What we really should need to prevent these dangerous, and cataclysmic failures of corporate and regulatory action, is a system where the employees; workers if you will, of these increasingly vast systems have a good robust way of providing input and action into how the systems run and should run to give both efficient, effective, and long-lasting service without sacrificing the needs of the communities they serve, the workers who rely on them to afford basic needs, and the general public who relies on these services to get the goods that we use every day. There, we can establish a much more independent and flexible market without needing government oversight to prevent the encroachment against basic human rights and ethics, but also very capable internally of preventing such top-down, greed-fueled corporate control by profiteers and barons that were such defining moments of places like the railroads during the Gilded Age and Progressive Era.

[@stephenheath8465]

You notice all the frequent train wrecks lately around the country,not a coicidence for sure.

[@Cnw8701]

Hmm... maybe implement some form of Democratic Socialism instead of Welfare Capitalism?

[@aaronrider4051]

What the Popes called "solidarism," though largely unknown because Heinrich Pesch hasn't been translated well, is what's necessary.

[@91_C4_FL]

Fantastic video! The most concise summary of PC’s fall that I’ve seen. I often wondered how a merger between the New York Central and Milwaukee Road would have worked.

[@williamh.jarvis6795]

I heard of such a rumor about the Missouri Pacific and the Southern Railroad considering a merger. Must have alarmed some competitor!

[@dknowles60]

it would have failed the NCY was a low cost rail road and the Milwaukee was a high cost rail road

[@cykablyatman6242]

the nyc and atsf merger would have been nuts

[@eugeeropel5572]

As far as railroad videos go and there are not many about the PENN CENTRAL, other than Green Frog Productions which are Excellent, this one is extremely informative. It takes you from the Pennsylvania Railroad, New York Central merger to the rest, New Haven, B&O just to name a few. This one for being somewhat brief is excellent as well.

[@vega660]

2nd to Penn Central, the rock island railroad was the next giant railroad to fall and has just an equal fascinating story to go with it.

[@notaire2]

Kompakte und verständliche Geschichte vom Anfang bis zum Ende dieser unvergleichlichen Eisenbahn zusammen mit wertvollen Fotos und Filmen. Sehenswert!

[@Cnw8701]

Wasn't the Eisenhower administration responsible for the harsh regulations that practically killed the golden era of railroading in America? Of course, Carter practically saved Class 1 railroading by signing the Staggers Act.

[@dknowles60]

where do you get that crap from. It was John Fish wick CEO of the N&W. he gave the Clerks a 90 day spanking and show the Rail roads you could stand up to the over paid union workers Carter had no Choice. he was busy with his 444 day spanking

[@UrMomsChauffer]

Absolutely spot on. This video was great, I even learned a few details I did not know. You really did your research, which shows your appreciation and dedication to the subject.

[@IckAck03]

Ruairidh, I have to say, you work is really incredible. Entertaining, but very enlightening. I really appreciate your videos emphasizing the way organizations communicate, react, and work with each other in the industry. They're the elephants in the rooms that not a lot of people seem to know how to articulate talking about, and you sure did a nice job explaining it between the PR and the NYC! Superb work. Also, whatever happened to your video on the Garratt steam locomotives? That video had great explanations, too!

[@PaulR1200]

Another great episode, very informative and easy to understand, many thanks NZCH

[@paulperrottet113]

Excellent video of an interesting time in the railroad industry. ICC always treated railway companies as "robber-barons". Only fault I could see is your file photo of Delaware, Lackawanna and Western when referring to its 1960 merger with the Eire Railroad, (7:14) is of the Delaware and Hudson Railroad.

[@ChamplainDivision]

The locomotive at 7:14 is a Delaware & Hudson ALCo C-628. It is not a Delaware, Lackawanna & Western engine.

[@Nurvington]

Excellent video, footage and narration!

[@cacline72]

Oh my god you madman you made a video of this! I love this!

[@charlesmorschauser5258]

One thing not often remarked on was deferred maintenance. The track was so bad by PC that you almost couldn't move trains because of slow orders and derailments Conrail put millions into fixing up trackage

[@dknowles60]

they were moving trains on the Ex NYC side. it was the Prr side that was in poor shape

[@SunkenMineRailroad]

Extremely well researched and I enjoyed the photos chosen. Very well done!

[@paulseifert6598]

I grew up along Conrail lines in Pennsylvania in the mid 80's, and I remember watching the coal trains going by and being able to spot the lone Reading, Eire or Penn Central coal car in the mix that had somehow escaped being repainted... you could still see the occasional lone survivor boxcar or hopper roaming the network until the early 90's, they had a unique teal/green color scheme, stood out even from a mile away.

[@bobainsworth5057]

My Aunt worked for the Pennsey ( PRR) in the reservation department in NYC at the time of the merger. The railroads worked on a seniority system so she lost her job because all Centrals reservation people hand more time then her. She had 25yrs. Of service at the time.

[@haroldalexis4200]

Very enjoyable video on this of PENN CENTRAL. I grew up in The Mott Haven section of the South Bronx, New York City. I had the privilege to see the equipment the New Haven had as well. Sorry for the business side that caused the demise that PENN CENTRAL acquired in these other prior railroads. I simply remembered no doubt The New Haven lines & their equipment as well as my all favorite engine The FL 9. My opinion after watching this video: NEW HAVEN (formerly New York, New Haven & Hartford) had it worse with that many bankruptcies I was unaware of in their earlier railroad history, in the 1930's the ill fated BOSTON & WESTCHESTER railroad short lived went bankrupt & later abandoned then to be taken by the IRT Subway at 180th Street, Bronx, New York. I remember Conrail when they came in on 1976 I miss them as well. You narrated so well & I'm a major fan of British rails as well as other railroads in Germany, France, Korea, China,Japan, India & Russia! Awesome video. 👋👋👋👋👋👋

[@blueberrypirate3601]

US railroads were in a dire crisis at the end of the 60s and even Amtrak wasn't very promising. Everyone was flying across the States rather than taking flyers from city to city.

[@johnnyjames7139]

Amtrak at 50 this year. $80 billion in loses.

[@sweetmyth2537]

@@johnnyjames7139 funny if it wasnt for Covid19 Amtrak might have made a profit in 2020 or 2021

[@michlo3393]

@@johnnyjames7139 Didn't know YOU were paying Amtraks bills.

[@drippinglass]

Great! Thank you for all the great work! 😀

[@stanfischer6175]

The N & W operated steam into 1960, not 1965. If they would have operated steam that late I would've known about it because I was 12 and reading railroad magazines. While were on the subject the N & W steam locomotives were home built and of the most modern. As all can see I'm still a foamer.

[@Train_Tok_Man]

I read somewhere that on some branchlines, the N&W kept steam until 1965. I’m unsure on that though.

[@oaktadopbok665]

Wow. Kudos on a great documentary

[@ethpling165]

Very good video, and a good job bringing to light a company that is often overlooked by railfans

[@jam5076]

Great Video, professional style gives us the facts and no flannel

[@stephenkeever6029]

Really well researched and presented. Thanks for this history information that I always wondered about.

[@walterjaygould6110]

Excellent reporting.

[@fhwolthuis]

Excellent video!

[@NortheastRailfan3985]

Your videos are awesome man

[@joshroller9449]

Conrail. Arguably one of the few smart moves made by the US government in the last half century. Great video!

[@rwboa22]

And Conrail should be brought back as a Federal government-owned corporation, not to haul freight like it's 1976-1999 predecessor, but to take ownership of all Class I main line routes (including the electrified Northeast Corridor and Keystone Corridor), in which Conrail would oversee the upgrading and maintenance of the national Class I main line routes (including the electrified Northeast and Keystone Corridors) allowing for simultaneous (and segregated) cross-country electrified Amtrak passenger and dual-powered freight service by the Class I railroad companies, who, along with Amtrak and state-funded transportation agencies, would be tenants to the "New Conrail's" infrastructure.

[@Cnw8701]

@@rwboa22 Lol Joe Biden and his gang wouldn't get it done. They can't even tell their asses from their arms, let alone work with Republicans on issues us Americans care about! The two political parties are not there to serve us. They don't care. They'll keep bailing out every corporation as long as they are funneling money to the two major parties. Conrail and the USRA are yesterday's news. It's a miracle Joe hasn't come up with a privatized proposition for Amtrak.

[@t700e]

@@rwboa22 That’s pretty optimistic. Knowing how our government is, that project would probably take a bit more than 100 years, and sink us even lower in debt.

[@MightyMezzo]

My grandfather was a track supervisor for the PRR. He retired shortly before the Penn Central was formed. He declared at the time that the merger would never work, because the PRR and NY Central used incompatible signal systems.

[@dknowles60]

that was because 99% of the Prr signal systems were built befor apx 1920 over 80% of the NYC signal systems were built after 1958

[@wxx3]

Really good summary. Thanks

[@anthonyjeter2740]

I have great memories of seeing those Penn Central freight trains pass through my Bridgeport, Ct neighborhood as a child. Some old New Haven passenger cars are still in use on the commuter CT Rail line, and Until recently, a New Haven diesel engine was in use on the Metro-North Waterbury commuter line.

[@marvwatkins7029]

N& aW stopped using steam well before '65. The last revenue steam operation in the U.S. was the Grand Trunk Detroit commuter service on the fall off 1960.

[@australiasindustrialage689]

Excellent film, thanks for sharing

[@moosecat]

Great video. The town I grew up in--Yorktown Heights, NY--was on the "Old Putnam" division of New York Central. (Historical footnote: that line was the first line in the United States to use diesel power for commuter trains, back in the 1920s.) It took the railroad approximately 20 years (and the merger/bankruptcy of Penn Central and subsequent acquisition by ConRail) for the line to be abandoned.

[@ianhelps3749]

Nice archive film and photos.

[@jjquinn2004]

Really enjoyable video; brought back a lot of memories. I grew up in the 1960s in a small town west of Philadelphia and used to hang around the local train station watching the passenger and freight trains as they sped through on the main line west to Pittsburgh and Chicago.

[@thomaskauffman2108]

Was it Lancaster?

[@gregorylenton8200]

Great show

[@Sugarmountaincondo]

Excellent video content.

[@warrior3456_]

love these old documentary's

[@wes5150.]

Out of High School in 1973 I worked in the Penn Central Track Dept(and I occassionally was able to hit the spike)in Toledo, Ohio. From what I saw EVERYONE Was STEALING the Company 'Blind'. From 'Top' to 'Bottom'. Feds took over and formed 'ConRail'. I remember that two ConRail 'Hostlers'(engineers) were smoking dope, blew past a red signal, collided with Amtrak, and killed and injured many people on the passenger train. That incident is what created Federally Mandated Alcohol and Drug Testing. I was a conductor at the time and lots of guys lost their job because they couldn't or wouldn't stop smoking weed. Some guys had wild ideas as to how to FOOL the drug test but turns out they were the FOOL and lost their job. Prior to the mandated Alcohol and Drug testing I can say that the issue was 'Rampant' mgnt and labor ON ALL RAILROADS! It really did a good job of getting rid of some Useless Losers ! Many TRUE stories that would scare you but fortunately it's behind us now. Retired after 37 years with BNSF in So Cal.

[@robbybobbyhobbies]

Excellent work. Could you do one on the current state of the Canadian railroad system in a similar style?

[@YaoboyProd2K15]

Although Penn Central was short-lived, it still helped moving freight in the Northeastern United States in the late 60s and the 70s.

[@johnhauser4589]

So glad you mentioned workers salaries and pay. I worked for penn central during the early 70's and while the railroad was choking and dying in debt, the union negotiated very very generous pay.

[@michlo3393]

Right, blame the unions and not the comically mismanaged and failed merger of two culturally opposed railroads. You must have been a company officer.

[@craigm2520]

@@michlo3393 it can go both ways with upper mgmt mismanaging and unions asking for too much also. The best orgs have a good relationship and partnership in a sense so success can hit it’s max

[@michlo3393]

@@craigm2520 these days the carriers won't even show up to the negotiating table. And I wholeheartedly agree with you on the need to compromise, the RRs have made it clear that they don't even want to bother trying anymore. Management on both ends could use a good change of personnel these days.

[@BuckeyeNationRailroader]

9:30 A little correction. That Railyard in Columbus Ohio was actually built in 1970, and was known as Buckeye Yard. It was Penn Centrals most efficient classification yard. It served all the way through to the Conrail Era and the Conrail Breakup years. In 2021, Norfolk Southern abandoned there section of Buckeye Yard, while CSX's half still remains as an intermodal facility. The property has been purchased by United Parcel Service and there is a possibility that it could see UPS Trains.

[@Benjimac379]

I thought they were going to possibly build an Amazon warehouse in that area

[@dknowles60]

wrong Elkhart and selkirk were a lot better

[@callumthornelow2936]

Really enjoyed this, could you do a piece on Wisconsin Central please?

[@philipgrowcott6839]

Great video, very informative learnt a lot about the whole new York Central and Penn railway rivalry. Such a shame that only new York Centrals main station is the only one still standing in new York. Penn station as it is today is an abomination to the great station that it replaced.

[@cris_261]

Are there still plans to convert the look-alike post office building into a station?

[@xr6lad]

@@cris_261 it’s actually taken place. There is a video in KZbin. Look it up under Moynihan Train Hall.

[@emilyadams3228]

The only good thing that came from that was, it started the Architecture Preservation Movement. Much in the same way that the Ferrocarriles Nationales de Mexico's 1978 conversion of the last four Alco PA1's to large-scale Modern Art Sculptures of crushed beer cans woke people up to the importance of diesel preservation.

[@cris_261]

@@emilyadams3228 Two of the four PAs were repatriated to America, albeit as shells. One got restored by Doyle McCormick who gave it a Nickel Plate RR scheme. The other PA is awaiting restoration. The other two PAs wound up as displays in Mexico.

[@emilyadams3228]

@@cris_261 Yeah, Doyle's NKP PA is gorgeous. She has the 12-251 from a CN M420B.

[@xr6lad]

One of your best I think. Really enjoyed that. Sad to see yet another business strangled in part by government interference while public servants walk away with a pension and no loss of income. Sounds familiar.

[@majorlee76251]

Very good, while listening to this a CSX local went by on old New Haven territory.

[@uhlijohn]

For a Limey, you sure know a lot about American railroads, my friend! Great job!

[@Pensyfan19]

Great review on this fallen flag!

[@chicagonorthwesternrailfan5043]

The Santa Fe was in the south west but traveled to Chicago but was focused in the south and western region of America . The Midwest railroads were the Milwaukee road, Chicago and northwestern railroad, the Burlington Northern, Illinois central, and the rock island. ( if I missed any let me know)

[@markdunwell3288]

What a pity Al Perlman was not allowed to run the railway properly. But in the end Stuart Saunders and the I C C killed PENN CENTRAL.

[@dknowles60]

90% Stuart Sanders

[@0759trainz]

Great documentary. Do you have plans for a Rock Island documentary?

[@zanelindsay1267]

For another example of the extreme dysfunction of the Interstate Commerce Commission, consider what happened to the Rock Island Railroad 1965-1974. Union Pacific wanted to buy the Rock and sell off portions to other railroads but the ICC spent 10 years thinking about it and adding untenable conditions while the Rock deteriorated to the point that Union Pacific lost interest, leaving the Rock to ultimately fail completely.

[@Quebecoisegal]

Interesting to see the varied locomotives, especially the steam & electric.

[@AviationNut]

I am always amazed at how much great research you put into these video's, if I could click like more than once i definitely would. You deserve so many more subscribers, i will share your videos with everyone I know. Keep up the great work my friend.

[@hughcurran6870]

Nice job.

[@smwca123]

Another factor not mentioned in this video: the role of ex-PRR CFO David C. Bevan, which rates a chapter in "Wreck of the Penn Central", entitled "A Very Small Affair". Bevan, together with several other officials of his department, had a little "private investment club" called Penphil Inc., which traded mostly PRR and later PC and subsidiaries' stock mostly on inside information. One of its investments was in Executive Jet Aviation, on which PC lost $20M - and that at a time when railroads were forbidden from owning airlines! That too rates a whole chapter. (BTW Penphil was obviously fodder for the "Q-Investments" subplot of Arthur Hailey's 1975 novel "The Moneychangers"). Bevan was known as a loose cannon even in his PRR days; he joined in 1951 and held the CFO position from about 1955 until fired in 1970. In fairness, he was a competent CFO without whom PRR and PC would have been even worse off. In hearings leading up to the merger, he repeatedly mentioned 1970 as a year of heavy debt maturities.

[@dknowles60]

no Al perman would have goten a Better CFO

[@smwca123]

@@dknowles60 Perlman wasn't even aware of Bevan's shenanigans, nor was CEO Stuart Saunders, also ex-PRR. In PC the ex-NYC Perlman, though nominally President and COO, was reduced to almost total impotence, and was "kicked upstairs" into the non-job of vice-chairman before being fired, along with Saunders and Bevan. Perlman later said PC wasn't a merger, but a PRR takeover. In the end, a shareholder's lawyer's letter to Saunders blew the whistle on Bevan and Penphil. That's how awful communication at the top of PC was.

[@dknowles60]

@@smwca123 Perlman was very good. he went on to become the CEO of the Wprr. John kenerflick who work under perlman went on to become CEO of the Uprr on one From the Prr side ever went on to become ceo of any thing

[@smwca123]

@@dknowles60 True, but in PC Perlman was never given any kind of a chance. So thick was the bad blood between PRR and NYC that in the end they agreed on only 2 things: Both wanted out of passenger service, and neither wanted anything to do with NH. That last was a condition the ICC threw in.

[@dknowles60]

@@smwca123 Saunders was a great fool and dumbie. that is why John fishwick who knew Saunders push him out of the N&W Rail road. The Prr kept asking the N&W rr to save the Prr. the Icc did the N&W a good job when it told the PRR if you want to merge with the NCY you must sell your N&W stock

[@redram5150]

The underlying reason that caused these companies to merge was never addressed, and only prolonged their deaths. The main money maker for the Pennsy had always been anthracite. And following the Knox Mine disaster, state regulation of the industry increased operating costs to a point that mining ground to a halt. On top of that, federal law required either company to continue operating stations with little or no traffic. Preventing the closure of these stations meant that overhead increased more and more with no profit to show. What’s ironic is after Conrail took over, one of their first actions was closing unprofitable stations,

[@railsaroundsouthjersey]

Were do you get "Pennsy had always been anthracite." NO they had "Bituminous coal". The Pennsy had a very small part in anthracite. (via the Schuylkill Valley Branch.) The RDG, CNJ, LV, Erie, DL&W and L&NE were the anthracite roads.

[@redram5150]

@@railsaroundsouthjersey I grew up in Schuylkill County. I know what was mined and who hauled it away, guy

[@railsaroundsouthjersey]

@@redram5150 I have a lot of family up that way, but you are still wrong!

[@redram5150]

@@railsaroundsouthjersey cool story, guy

[@dknowles60]

Pennsy was over with as soon as WW2 ended

[@silurian9420]

Very interesting.

[@auxityne]

At least Penn Central got to exist for a bit. Even more hilarious is the story of the SPSF, which got killed before it really even started.

[@smwca123]

Shouldn't Paint So Fast.

[@paulw.woodring7304]

I would not have called it a "rise" of PC, considering it was the desperate merger of two failing companies, forced to take on a third one (New Haven) as an additional boat anchor as a condition for the merger. It was a pretty rapid descent into corporate Hell, which along with Hurricane Agnes in 1972 led directly to the creation of Conrail.

[@dknowles60]

NYC was Not a Failing Company. ONly the PRR and New Haven were the Failing Companys

[@RCAvhstape]

3:05 The Bear Mountain Bridge over the Hudson River. Driven over that several times. The rail line is still active, don't recall if there is passenger service on it today.

[@CSX_Doolittle]

Great video only one flaw at 7:15 you say that that’s a DL&W locomotive but the picture is a D&H locomotive

[@Blatsen]

Great video, but I have one minor correction. St. Louis, MO is pronounced locally, and in America in general, as “St. Lewis.” Even though it’s named after King Louis IX of France, the pronunciation has been Americanized. I’m a local who lives in the nearby Illinois suburbs. I often mispronounce placenames myself. I even occasionally mispronounce placenames that I’m not familiar with here in Illinois and in nearby Missouri.

[@SMichaelDeHart]

WV Rep. Staggers saved a massive amount of RR failures. As a West Virginian and all the Coal coming out of the state at that time, I'm sure King Coal helped push the deregulation through.

[@chengliu872]

If they ever made a high speed rail line from NYC to Chicago along the Lake Shore Limited line, they should name it the 21st Century Limited.

[@EllieMaes-Grandad]

Ah yes, Hitchcock's movie, 'North by Northwest' does it proud; Eva Marie Saint was pretty too . . .

[@wescreek5666]

Pency went threw St Thomas Ontario Canada too i remember it as a kid

[@kkhagerty6315]

Never thought I’d see another St Thomas local here, a shame about what happened

[@wescreek5666]

@@kkhagerty6315 oh yes it was a great time i liked the logo it is on my lap top now a remember when

[@raritania7581]

That was the NYC not the PRR.

[@SeanBodine]

7:45 I have that clip on a VHS tape I just bought a couple of days ago.

[@johnweber6612]

Interesting video/ Thanks for making. Railroading was a marginal business in the 1950's and 60s. Was not really a private company. Penn central was poorly planned and operated but it's bankruptcy was probably inevitable considering the conditions it operated under.

[@kungfuwitcher7621]

Interesting video. I had no idea that things were that dire back then for American railroad companies.

[@kenshin891]

It was a mess, particularly the northeast and Great Lakes regions and especially the Pennsylvania Railroad. Years and years of deferred maintenance and the merger resulted in lots of duplicated track. Penn Central made a movie in 1974 to show to Congress and beg for federal funding. I believe it's actually up on youtube.

[@kungfuwitcher7621]

@@kenshin891 Thanks I will have a look for that. As a brit I always assumed that American railroads were mainly freight operations from the start. I had never realised that there so much bureaucracy involved getting in the way of growth.

[@MarceloBenoit-trenes]

@@kungfuwitcher7621 there were a lot of passenger services that disappeared between 1930 and 1971. Some of them could have been saved. And there are two things that the video doesn´t cover: the commuter services went to the states (or dissapeared) and that the NEC track went to Amtrak, MNCRR and MBTA. Previously they were operated by PC and PRR.

[@kungfuwitcher7621]

@@MarceloBenoit-trenes Thanks for the info 👍

[@MrSouthernman73]

@7:13 the DL&W did merge with Erie in 1960, but Delaware & Hudson was not part of the deal(picture shown of D&H Alco)

[@davidsheriff8989]

Fantastic history of these railroads....modernization, car traffic and airflights, profitability, same as seen in UK to a lesser degree...

[@mollycaz1]

Outstanding video. What happen to the rock island line

[@thatonecaledonian812]

This is Rodney Katorski NOBODY NOBODY’S BETTER THAN THE PENN CENTRAL

[@nicolek4076]

The S in St. Louis is pronounced. I know. It's a heathen thing to do, but it's in the USA. What more can I say?

[@coolkirk1701]

Also in Maryland, the y is pronounced as a short i making it mar-i-land (or mar-i-lund if you’re speaking quickly)

[@iankemp1131]

Well put, Nicole. It's always hard to get your head around the American pronunciation of St Louis after learning French at school!

[@tjejojyj]

Why did Judy Garland sing “Meet me in St ‘Lewey’, ‘Lewey’, meet me at the fair?

[@iankemp1131]

@@tjejojyj Very interesting point. Looked up Wikipedia and apparently the song was originally written for the 1904 World's Fair, and did use the "Lewee" pronunciation. Probably because it referred to the person Louis, and hopefully even Americans don't pronounce that with an S?

[@moosecat]

@@iankemp1131 Ahh...but those of us who understand French in the US understand the "s" is silent in Louisville and Des Moines.

[@russellgxy2905]

Well shit I was not expecting to see this as like 4 in the morning but I'm excited!

[@hasmatiks]

Time zones, baby.

[@obelic71]

@@hasmatiks Yep in GMT +1(CET) its the first coffee break already

[@xr6lad]

It’s 6.38pm here in Melbourne, Australia. Perfect dinner time viewing

[@obelic71]

@@xr6lad damned you are always ahead there down under 😁

[@xr6lad]

@@obelic71 🤣🤣yup Monday night and I’ll relaxing with a scotch

[@Trainmaster909]

This video lasted longer than the Penn Central

[@rayshowsay1749]

A slight error at about 16:30: the AAR(Association of American Railroads) was formed many years before Conrail, in 1934; what was probably formed during the Conrail era was a working body within the AAR to press for full rate-setting freedom.

[@whatsup89100]

it still hurts

[@iannarita9816]

If anyone is interested in a good look at this, I recommend the book The Men Who Loved Trains, by Rush Loving.