The Rise & Fall of The UFO Club: Home of British Psychedelia (1967)

[@johnhanson8442]

I went there 4 times when pink Floyd played there which made me follow them I’m now over 70 remember it well it was a real dive but great

[@sirapos6550]

Wow !

[@dantean]

I never knew UFO Club lasted under a year. Nevertheless, it remains a spiritual home to me (along with San Francisco's Haight Ashbury district). Me, a black kid from the South Bronx, a dozen years too young to ever have ever even been there to see Soft Machine and Syd's Pink Floyd, Tomorrow, and Arthur Brown (ESPECIALLY Soft Machine), though I've heard the recordings. Thanks for this.

[@markbrooks7157]

How on earth did you discover this music?

[@dantean]

@@markbrooks7157 New York City private schools from the early to the late 70's is the answer. Barely anyone even THERE was listening to anything but radio rock, but one classmate was a big fan of Canterbury Scene bands Soft Machine, Henry Cow, Hatfield & The North, Caravan, et. al. I got to digging them and--long story short--knew to go see Daveid Allen when he came to New York in 1979 and played with what he called "New York Gong" (I even recorded it but have since lost the cassettes). That's the short version. The long one takes up an entire novel.

[@paulnolan4971]

@@dantean Wow man that's awesome. I love Caravan and the Canterbury scene. Soft Machine and Floyd go without saying 😁Also Steve Hillage man

[@scottkelly9052]

I love "Yesterday Papers"!!!!!!!!! Hearing these artists talk about the hits of the day, the scene that was going on, it's a refreshing look at the classic bands and sounds of the 60's.....kudos to "Yesterday Papers"....

[@YesterdaysPapers]

Thank you very much!

[@paulnolan4971]

I love their honesty and knowledge

[@golden.lights.twinkle2329]

I saw the Doors and Jefferson Airplane at the Roundhouse, Chalk Farm, in 1967. Never went to the actual UFO club though. We had our own great club in Erdington, Birmingham called 'Mothers'. At that club they had bands like The Who, The Deviants, Moby Grape, Eclection and Fairport Convention.

[@YesterdaysPapers]

Great bands! "Mothers" sounds like a cool club.

[@radiomindchatter7994]

Mothers is legendary also 👍

[@chrissammis3521]

Wow! I didn’t know Moby Grape ever toured in England. Can you remember when that was?

[@golden.lights.twinkle2329]

@@chrissammis3521 The club opened in 1968, so probably 1968 or 1969. There's a Wikipedia page about the Mothers club.

[@karithatthought2304]

Aww the Roundhouse gig. My other half was at that show and said that the Doors and Jefferson Airplane played 2 sets each strangely 😄

[@ayyowhat]

I always heard that club mentioned when people were talking about early pink Floyd days, crazy it was open less than a year

[@calvinguile1315]

I love these videos, everytime I hear about the psychedelic era in London, it always makes me feel like I wish I could have been there...

[@tmage23]

In case it wasn't clear by the photo, the lead guitarist of Tomorrow (formerly The In Crowd) was Steve Howe, later of Yes.

[@peterduce5525]

Went when it was in Tottenham Court Road. Pink Floyd were the sort of "House Band". First time I saw them was there. Old Geezer Me!

[@sethtuckerstraining9261]

I am addicted to these videos 😂 Highlight of my day whenever you post!Keep up the great work!

[@paulnolan4971]

I LOVE ALL THIS STUFF! CAN'T GET ENOUGH ! 😊

[@alm5693]

Thanks for the video. Joe Boyd wrote a biography called White Bicycles that has great descriptions of that time and the many other scenes that Boyd has been a part of. There was a companion CD too. Tomorrow's guitarist was Steve Howe.

[@YesterdaysPapers]

I've got that book and I agree, it's excellent. A great read.

[@thereunionparty]

I've known of Joe Boyd in connection with Fairport Convention, Fotheringay and Nick Drake but I hadn't quite appreciated how influential he has been with other music genres and with many other artists. I must get his auto-biography, it sounds fascinating.

[@YesterdaysPapers]

@@thereunionparty It's a great book, well worth checking out. Joe Boyd also produced the first Pink Floyd single "Arnold Layne".

[@alm5693]

@@YesterdaysPapers Wasn't he also the stage manager at Newport Folk Festival when Dylan went Electric with the Butterfield Blues Band?

[@YesterdaysPapers]

@@alm5693 Yep! And he moved to Britan a year later.

[@davidellis5141]

I would love to have had a conversation with a lucid Syd Barret. The talent he had !

[@f.w.2054]

Ahhh the good old days of hedonistic revelry! Imagine seeing Pink Floyd, The Soft Machine, The Move, Tomorrow, and Denny Laine in one week!!? I would have gone every night, only if it was for two months!

[@YesterdaysPapers]

Same here. So many great bands played there. Joe Boyd didn't mention them in this article but other bands who played at the UFO club were Procol Harum and The Pretty Things, among many others.

[@kennethrussell1158]

It was like the 1960's version of Studio 54.

[@wonsworld61]

Absolutely brilliant. I just love your channel. I can close my eyes and imagine what it would be like to just go to a 'club' and see these bands. If I only had a Tardis...

[@YesterdaysPapers]

Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it. Cheers.

[@nathalieplum2137]

Monsieur YP: we don't know where you're from, what age you are, what job you had to have all that knowledge (and researching for more I'M sure), but oh Monsieur YP: KZbin was created for talents like yours! It must be so time consuming doing these and we love you for it! 💯💫

[@YesterdaysPapers]

Thank you, Madame Plum! Really appreciate it, glad you enjoy the videos.

[@nathalieplum2137]

@@YesterdaysPapers What happened to half of your videos on your channel? Lots are missing. I like rewatching them!

[@YesterdaysPapers]

@@nathalieplum2137 All the videos are still there. The only ones missing are the Jimi Hendrix ones, which got blocked due to copyright.

[@nathalieplum2137]

@@YesterdaysPapers That's strange, the only ones i see, when I go to your "video" page on your channel, are from 4 months ago to now. And I've got YT Premium! But then I see old ones on the right side list when I play one. Very bizarre.

[@mr.milehi9883]

There will never be times like those times at the UFO anywhere in the world. With all this auto-tuning and algorithm driven whatever they claim to be music. This is just something that will remain in the past nothing can bring any sort of evolution or revolution to fruition though I wasn't around during that time. I'm lucky to experience this where when I was younger. Music sales were driven by vinyl and CD sales those times are pretty much gone. The one thing that gives me hope is the final revival. It's unfortunate that the quality of the wax is so poor in general compared to its high price so please keep doing these great mini documentaries. They are important for people much younger than me that will hopefully have enough patience to try and understand history.

[@Borella309]

As usual, Yesterday's Papers delivers! Absolutely love your channel - thanks for the great research and presentation.

[@YesterdaysPapers]

Thank you very much! Cheers.

[@francoispedro3694]

I've noticed that Yesterday's papers videos are more than interesting... And the comments below too. Great job, again.

[@tangomango69]

I have sent this to my good friend, Keith West lead singer of The In Crowd/Tomorrow. He mentions the club in his biography, “Thinking About Tomorrow “, well worth a read.

[@maurice8607]

I wasn't aware of this book. I must read it.

[@John_Fugazzi]

Tomorrow was one of the best British Psychedelic bands. I still love My White Bicycle. I did not know they got their start at UFO or that they were ever called The In Crowd (such a 1965 name).

[@Truckngirl]

Very interesting! I've only heard of the UFO Club because of my love of Syd Barrett era (The) Pink Floyd (Sound). Your narrative along with the media clips made this a too short watch.

[@rikurodriguesneto6043]

yours is the go-to channel for stuff from this era

[@Rochfordessex2]

Superb documentary YP! Thanks ❤

[@radiomindchatter7994]

Excellent! You have yet again upped your standard of standardness....

[@YesterdaysPapers]

Thanks!

[@wyliesmith4244]

Many, many thanks for putting up a history of the UFO club. I've seen it mentioned in many places, but I can't recall seeing that it lasted less than a year, nor the places it was located. Almost every episode is an education for this elderly Yank. I love your videos, and the shots of a double-decker bus going down a London street fuels my imagination of what London looked like. I did get to spend the summer of '69 in London and went to the Roundhouse a few times, but I remember hearing previews of Fairport's 'A Sailor's Life' and Mott's cover of 'You Really Got Me' more than the artists that I saw (the Deviants were one). I did love Joe Boyd's Witchseason productions and saw Richard Thompson more than 20 times, so when a former housemate starting working at Rykodisc/Hannibal, he told me about working with Joe, and later told me about "White Bicycle" when it came out. But this cideo really filled a gapin my 'knowledge' of the period.

[@darganx]

Hats off to Arthur Brown! Still crazy, still performing.

[@paulnolan4971]

He'll always be 🔥

[@bipbopboom]

Cool little doc!! Never knew if was pronounced youfoe. Thanks for sharing! Cheers, Jon

[@YesterdaysPapers]

Thanks, Jon! Glad you enjoyed it.

[@Micolash_is_behind_you]

[@nathalieplum2137]

Don't we all...

[@SophieLovesSunsets]

In the first few seconds of this video I was thinking "This club looks like somewhere Syd would hung out" I wasn't disappointed 😊 Very cool video, it's fascinating to learn about London in the 60s. Slightly off topic, but I always find it hard to believe Brian Epstein was only 32 when he died. He always seemed like such a sophisticated older man. I respect him a lot. Thank you for another great video, YP. You're the best on KZbin. I hope you know that 💖

[@YesterdaysPapers]

Thanks, Sophie!. I agree, Brian Epstein did look older than 32. I think most people from that scene thought anyone over 25 was old!

[@SophieLovesSunsets]

@@YesterdaysPapersI've always felt very sorry for him. I think The Beatles unravelled a lot when he died 💖

[@YesterdaysPapers]

@@SophieLovesSunsets It's a sad story. When the Beatles stopped touring, he felt that he was no longer needed.

[@SophieLovesSunsets]

@@YesterdaysPapers Very sad. All that fame and success and he died alone. I remember reading that John wrote "You've Got to Hide Your Love Away" about Brian, I don't know if it's true or not, but that song is heartbreaking.

[@briangonigal3974]

@@YesterdaysPapers And in an almost tragic irony, In the recent Get Back documentary you see the Beatles pretty much admit they needed him more than ever. Once he died every single thing they tried to do outside of making music in the recording studio collapsed in an ugly mess because he wasn't there to work out a plan & hold everyone to it, including the live show that was supposed to be the whole point of the Get Back project in the first place. It's a miracle they even managed to pull off that half-assed show on the roof given everyone's self doubt & second-guessing.

[@namcat53]

When the music, posters, clothes and drugs were brand new and beautiful in the late 60's, it was paradise. Nothing like it had ever happened; it was a golden era.

[@EclecticoIconoclasta]

UFO is clearly part of London´s legendary history of revolutionary clubs where whole musical subcultures got started or had their main base at. These include The Flamingo for mods, UFO for psychedelia, 100 club for punk, Batcave for goth, Blitz for New Romantics and Shoom for the early rave scene in the late 80s. Anyway since I am more of a mod and psychedelia fan I would go only to Flamingo, UFO and Shoom out of all of those if I had a time machine.

[@theoriginalbluey]

I'd love to have gone to these club nights, especially Blitz, but that's my age. I did go to Nag Nag Nag once which was quite exciting.

[@Trifixion22]

At first I thought this was gonna be a video about the *fantastic* band UFO. But this is quite interesting! Interesting how clubs played such a major part in music scenes back then. CBGB'S, Max's Kansas City, Marquee Club, etc. I was recently reading Anthony Decurtis' book "Lou Reed: A Life" and it talks about the Velvet Underground's time playing in clubs and Warhol's factory. The sound clips in this video do a great job of demonstrating how varied psychedelic rock is. There's really heavy, borderline metal bands like Blue Cheer, Tomorrow, Arthur Brown, Hendrix, etc. as well as lighter stuff like Pink Floyd.

[@YesterdaysPapers]

Very true. Some clubs definitely played a major role in music scenes back in the 60s and 70s. The ones you mentioned are good examples. Everyone associates the NY punk scene with those clubs.

[@mikewilson3581]

I have the same biography myself. Thank God for Laurie Anderson. She mellowed Lou out a bit. But Lou and John Cale were definitely oil and water.

[@terryenglish7132]

@@mikewilson3581 Laurie being w Lou still blows my mind !

[@willieluncheonette5843]

Fascinating piece about this club. I doubt many of us Yanks knew about this but the psychedelic light shows accompanying acts at the Fillmore West and Fillmore East were well known here. And in NYC in 1966 artist Andy Warhol and Paul Morrissey - who directed many of Warhol's films, and who became a sometime manager of the Velvet Underground - sublet the Dom ballroom and turned it into a nightclub. The Velvet Underground was the house band, and their performances under Andy Warhol's influence were accompanied by many light effects with the added touches of projected movies and projected photographs, all going on at the same time. The experience was called the "Exploding Plastic Inevitable." Then the name changed to The Electric Circus from 1967 to 1971. With its invitation (from one of its press releases) to "play games, dress as you like, dance, sit, think, tune in and turn on," and its mix of light shows, music, circus performers and experimental theater, the Electric Circus embodied the wild and creative side of 1960s club culture. Big thanks for this YP!

[@YesterdaysPapers]

Thank you, Willie! Glad you enjoyed the video.

[@CrystalShip8899]

Wish i had a time machine to go back to the UFO club to see these great bands,then nip across to the states to the Whiskey A Go Go in Los Angeles and finally to the Fillmore to see Big Brother And The Holding Company. Oh well,i can dream lol.

[@danielbrotherton7274]

Great vid again! Love it! Will you do one on the 14 Hour Technicolour Dream perchance? Was that Alan Rickman at the end?! ✌🏻

[@YesterdaysPapers]

That was Arthur Brown at the end. He did look like Alan Rickman! Hahaha!

[@danielbrotherton7274]

@@YesterdaysPapers 🤣 I don't think I've ever seen Arthur Brown's face before! He even sounded like Alan Rickman. Thanks for clearing that up 😆.

[@ericdailey8587]

I noticed in a newspaper clipping (at around the 4:50 mark) a group is mentioned called the the Knack. I know it is not the American group of "My Sharona" fame, but I thought it was interesting that there had been another group on the other side of the pond with that name.

[@maurice8607]

The Knack, the 60s outfit, made some fab tunes. Check them out. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4TKn5iDfL-pnbc

[@darganx]

Yes there were two 'Knacks'. They actually had a renaissance in the late 70's with a more punky/new wave sound, and had a UK chart hit the same time as My Sherona! Maybe record buyers had the idea they were the same group, who knows..

[@seanmortimer5569]

@@darganx This Knack became the Gun, who had a hit with "Race With the Devil", the Gurvitz brothers.

[@maurice8607]

Man oh man, apart from Tiles and the Scotch this is one place I'd love to have gone to. To have seen the Floyd, Tomorrow and the Smoke, I mean, CRAZY. And for anyone who hasn't yet read Joe Boyds book, White Bicycles, do so. A really good read.

[@YesterdaysPapers]

Where is my time machine? I love the "White Bycicles" book as well. Fantastic read.

[@barrymurphy1337]

Another great video. Coincidentally, I was watching an Italian movie this afternoon: Escalation (1968). The film's young lead character is living life in swinging 60s London until he is dragged back home to his duties at the family business. In the first 5 minutes of the movie he is cycling through London with a sitar slung over his shoulder, before hooking up with a very young Madeline Smith and then grooving the night away to Arthur Brown, at (I'm guessing) the UFO Club at the Roundhouse. I haven't been able to find any details on line to confirm it but its pretty cool.

[@maurice8607]

I've tried looking for Escalation but no luck 😔

[@barrymurphy1337]

... and on further investigation the first 8 minutes is on yt - just find the qilingren video

[@barrymurphy1337]

@@maurice8607 kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y2Svfaahptujopo

[@jdex29]

Some will re-invent the wheel.

[@lthompson7625]

The clips of Arthur Brown are interesting. He didn’t have many chart hits, but , with his on stage theatrics and crazy antics , in his own way he influenced the likes of Alice Cooper and others. Even those strange dance moves are similar to what lan Curtis was doing with Joy Division in later years..

[@alm5693]

There's a great, fun Halloween analysis of Arthur Brown and "Fire" on a YT video by Todd In The Shadows called "One hit wonderland: "Fire" by the Crazy World of Arthur Brown"

[@lthompson7625]

@@alm5693 Thanks, will have a look. When you think of it , Screaming Lord Sutch’s act was probably a forerunner of Arthur Brown. I think he had some famous musicians in his backing band?

[@classiclife7204]

Amazing look back at a (perhaps necessarily) brief era. Has less views than this channel usually gets; separating the wheat from the chaff, evidently. People do like the famous names in the title, I guess. Whatever, this is super cool. Thanks again, YP

[@marrrtin]

Great bit of archaeology there. I suppose many have heard of UFO in connection to Pink Floyd, but didn't have its wider context.

[@grokeffer6226]

I hadn't heard of this club before. 👍

[@drummer78]

The UFO was an Irish dance basement club on Tottenham Court Road called, “The Blarney”. Initially, the Irish owner just had the UFO on two successive Friday nights until it’s popularity made it apparent that psychedelic music was going to be the (short) future of the club.

[@chrisbacos]

I really liked this. My very own time machine on KZbin.

[@YesterdaysPapers]

Glad you liked it, Chris!

[@terryenglish7132]

Great job as always. ..Wow ! ...thats always the case, you have the far out hip people at a cool place when it starts , then everyone wants to come, then it dies of its own success. I' ve learned to enjoy a scene while its there and not to want it to last for ever, it surely wont.

[@HoorayTV21]

Classic videos! The Mark Felton of 60s rock. A video on George Bean would be killer. Little known with so many ties to big people its quite silly.

[@randystone4903]

"Most people are mad (crazy), fake flower people (weekend hippies)." Never went to England, but I remember clearly the social revolution that was Peace and Love. The music was the most original creation of the 60's with electronic musical tools never used before. There was a light year of difference between Buddy Holly and Jimi Hendrix fueled by psychedelia I think few people really appreciated even today. As the man said about society being mad is that the happy flower children were sane and unfortunately they were crucified by our insane society. The message of Love is needed more than ever today.

[@briangonigal3974]

So, apparently a big part of the reason the club died was down to that old Yogi Berra line "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

[@YesterdaysPapers]

Even though it's not mentioned in the article, I think the main reason why the club closed its doors was because they were sick and tired of the constant drug raids at the club and the police harassment. John "Hoppy" Hopkins, who was the other founder of the club, got jailed in june 1967.

[@karithatthought2304]

@@YesterdaysPapers I agree with you. From what my other half, who was at UFO a lot, there were constant drug raids.

[@danneeson7056]

I always thought flower power and flower music originated with The Seeds and Love in L.A. and of course San Fran bands like Great Society and The Vegtables , Grateful Dead etc. circa 1966. Always thought of it as a California thing. Look's to me like the British scene was more fashion driven and the American scene was more LSD driven. Love psychedelic music no matter where in the world it comes from.

[@paulnolan4971]

Lennon and Harrison first tripped in January 65 after being spiked by a dentist. Word got around after that. I also imagine the dentist was prolific lol

[@recordtime4923]

Didn’t know it was pronounced like that. “You foe”. That’s cool. Thanks.

[@craigfazekas3923]

@2:50 ? That's Steve Howe on the left. He'd eventually join Yes. 🚬😎

[@vkash5760]

At 2:00 minutes into this video, are we hearing a segment from IO take 6?

[@phantompanther648]

To see Arthur Brown .... do another song.....helps emensley

[@dirtylemon3379]

The girl at 4:32 sounds like she's from Philadelphia.

[@blahblahoink]

Good clips...any more of Tomorrow performing out there? I've never seen them live.

[@weeooh1]

I recall seeing Boyd in Pink Floyd documentaries. I believe he has done some work for them, either managing or producing some of their music.

[@markbrooks7157]

He produced their first single.

[@soarornor]

This was such a unique and amazing time. What is London like now? The entire country seems to be stuck (like most) in an ugly, political quagmire. Is there any room anymore for young people to rise above it with the creation of their own musical worlds and environments?

[@UdiKoomran]

Anyone able to identify the nellotron driven background music ?

[@maxx6095]

What is the tune playing @ 0:36 ?

[@GabrielTovar-v2p]

What song is the one in second 00.37 ???

[@TheMacasso]

The Move) played there in June /May 26th?? and apparently got booed off stage by the brown rice brigade - the macrobiotic stoners. Maybe the Move's amphetamine charge was too much for the snobby hippies?? man. However they came back in September As part for two day festival I believe on a bill with Denny Laine Arthur Brown and others !!!!

[@drummer78]

Pete Townshend’s girlfriend (and later wife ) Karen Astley was featured on posters for the UFO Club and she also worked there for a time.

[@paulnolan4971]

Sweet. The UFO man. Soft Machine and Floyd.

[@steveshattah]

Is there any good footage from this club?

[@kaitlynlonergan]

Michael English designed a poster called Love festival, was it made to promote the UFO Club or Love Festival- trying to determine if I should show this in my presentation

[@YesterdaysPapers]

I think it was ir was a festival that took place at the UFO club

[@nathalieplum2137]

At 1:30, that red band list for the UFO Festival... 🤪

[@mwmingram]

Great.

[@katbela3971]

I always thought ''My Friend Jack'' was an original Boney M song… I just found out it's a “The Smoke” song. Clearly prefer this, the original version. 2:22 Thanks, YP. 😃

[@YesterdaysPapers]

I didn't know Boney M covered "My Friend Jack".

[@SunFellow941]

CAN YOU READ THE TIMES (of London) NEWSPAPER'S REVIEW OF THE BEATLES FILM YELLOW SUBMARINE from 1968? I HEARD THEY RAVED ABOUT IT!!! THANKS! LOVE YOUR KZbin CHANNEL!

[@Fuzzbrain61]

Where was UFO on Tottenham crt rd?

[@BFVK]

I saw Kevin Ayers in this video: thumb UP !!

[@bryandawkins]

please forgive me for the salty language, but it really pisses me off when young people have a place they like to hang out antd the establishment puts pressure on them and they are forced to close. Pandora's Box a much-loved teen Hangout on the Sunset Strip in Los Angeles was put out of business the same way

[@maurice8607]

Ive read the book, Riot on Sunset Strip and is a cracking read. Seems there were so many places for the youngsters to hang out back then. Hmmmm, yes, the bloody establishment.

[@thediamonddog95]

I love these non-Blind dates videos. Nothing against Blind date, it's just that these are rarer.

[@briantjepkema7758]

Great video. Sounds like UFO was a victim of its own success. As happy as Barrett was in the early days, I am sure he was deeply troubled when he saw how things were unravelling. End of Flower Power. Indeed!

[@duppyconqueror8159]

Tyrannosaurus Rex also played there

[@jeffdexter291]

They certainly didn't!

[@seanmortimer5569]

No, at Middle Earth.

[@kingorbit]

was that Alan Rickman at the end?

[@YesterdaysPapers]

Arthur Brown.

[@mikewilson3581]

At least the UFO club didn't go the way of Tony Wilson's Hacienda club. A long money draining story. A great music scene meshed with financial incompetence. Especially The Happy Mondays and Barbados.

[@lucasoheyze4597]

So irrelevant to this video 🤦

[@mikewilson3581]

@@lucasoheyze4597 And your qualifications are....?

[@lucasoheyze4597]

@@mikewilson3581 Being able to work out what's relevant and what isn't is my qualification. By the way, you're conflating the Hacienda and Factory Records, two connected but separate things, it was the long wait and subsequent underperformance of New Orders Republic album that financially destroyed the Hac, not Yes Please.

[@mikewilson3581]

@@lucasoheyze4597 Your becoming too emotional on this one. And there was a link between the Hacienda and Factory. And The Mondays were relevant in the potential downfall because Factory needed a hit album for cash. The Hacienda had become a money pit. Besides, I was talking about potential similarities that could have occurred in different time periods. Calm down kid. There are much worse things to worry about these days. I'm going jettison this interruption and get on with my life now. Besides, this whole conversation will be hidden by the mist of time and soon forgotten.

[@lucasoheyze4597]

@@mikewilson3581 *You're

[@Kentpaul1992]

The UFO is like the cravren but werid

[@ChicoCabra]

You foe!

[@andrewm3934]

Suzy cream cheese. Sister of Dave cheesecake

[@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777]

Joe Boyd speaks in kind of a riddle.. there is much more to the 'function' than he's letting on and I won't get into it here. It's pretty dark.

[@Wotsitorlabart]

Conspiracy Theory Alert!

[@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777]

@@Wotsitorlabart You obviously don't understand what the definition of theory is. Facts are not theories.

[@Wotsitorlabart]

@@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777 Give us the 'facts' then. Don't be coy.

[@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777]

@@Wotsitorlabart your sarcasm fits you.

[@Wotsitorlabart]

@@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777 Once again give us the 'facts'. Let us be the judge of their validity. If you don't then you have simply cast aspersions on Joe Boyd. In which case 'Conspiracy Theory Alert' stands.