The Ruined Tower - Shadowdark Gloaming Session 1 Lazy GM Prep

[@grahamward7]

The rolling for ability scores thing comes from a philosophy where there’s distance between the player and their own character. Other than an unplayable result (which is arguably rare), it’s not assumed players need to feel powerful or that their character has to roll high in order to have fun.

[@johnmickey5017]

In this game you really want that distance since the lethality is almost comical. And getting your low stat character killed is sort of an aspect of play.

[@Grimlore82]

Tha k you so much for covering Shadowdark RPG ✊

[@Sosaku88]

I have been into the OSR scene for about 4 years now. The Lazy Dungeon Master Returns has been invaluable for when I ran 5e and Pathfinder. For OSR my prep ended up being pretty different though. I have a few tips here which are hopefully helpful, but if course feel free to ignore if it's something that doesn't work for your group. I should preface that I haven't played Shadowdark specifically, just other OSR style systems, as well as actual Old School D&D (1e). I have skimmed through the ruled pretty quickly. That's it. 1. I noticed in the video that you went through the location bit and built the dungeon very quickly. Location tends to be very important in OSR games, as exploration it a much bigger theme. I would definitely spend more time of the allotted prep. time on that. I would go as far to say that all you really need are "Strong Start" and "Location". 2. Leading on from location, spending a bit more time on it should give you the opportunity to add a few elements. The lazy way is add a couple of descriptor words as you say in your book, but i have found location of treasure important. Allows for players to plab around that if they know where it is, and come up with plans to lead the monster away, or grab and run etc... I know Shadowdark abstracts treasures a bit, but in the spider lair it couls be a gem on the amulet if a dead bandit. That treasure would be a low/normal haul. When the players see it glinting at the edge of their light, they can plan how they'll go about leading the spiders and ettercaps away. 3. Tricks and traps, and interactables. Since they are exploring the dungeon, you definitely want things the players can interact with and discover. "Tome of Adventure Design" has a terrific way of making your own tricks, if yu have that. But there has to be plenty of online generators too. Traps are great because the players can find them and use them against monsters. 4. I saw you saw the Marrow Fiend at level 8 and thought it too strong. I wouldn't worry too much about that. If it is signposted well, and clear how dangerous it is, the players will have to plan how to deal with it since they can't fight it. They could use a trap or trick against it, lure it into the spiders den so the ettercaps and spiders fight it etc... The first time they see the Marrow Demon it could be surrounded by dead Green Knights and Bandits, and it's gnawing on their bones. Before then the players see eviscerated knights and bandits, so they know they are heading into the lair of something dangerous. It's another challenge to overcome. Some of what I said can be improvised at the table of course, but I have found having a strong location is a really great foundation for OSR games. Just need to put on a coat of Shadowdark paint to portray things as truly horrible and dangerous in play, but the game runs easily once that's in place! It doesn't need to take too long either!

[@twentysides]

I'm loving this. Please keep doing more Shadowdark content.

[@ScottBaker_]

Loving the Shadowdark content.

[@janfeinberg3825]

Ran my players through the keep. Super fun. All survived. Smart players and great luck. They have decided to rebuild it and make it their base!

[@Valkenvr]

The problem with standard array is that reduces options severaly. There are 1 or 2 optimal ways to assign a standard array per class. So you end up picking always the same class with the exact same stats. Rolling forces you to experiment different clases and playstyles. And create unique characters like the strong and genious barbarian with low charisma. That has so much more role play potential that a standard template of Paladin number 24.

[@a_wild_Kirillian]

This is silly, as I see it. If you want to play an interesting combination - allocate your stats accordingly. Because otherwise most of the times you'll just be randomly weird, instead of being good at what you're supposed to be good at (there's a lot of randomness in the system already). It's D&D, stats don't fricking make unique characters. The system is built on archetypes, coming close to stereotypes. "Genius barbarian" isn't unique by itself, especially coupled with "strong" and "low charisma".

[@Valkenvr]

@@a_wild_Kirillian in theory you are right. In practise most of the time, in the moment of truth, most people default to what it is familiar and safe.

[@a_wild_Kirillian]

@@Valkenvr, so, because some people aren't brave enough or don't really want to pick a different class and stray from cliche (which is quite telling) you want to force them into a different random class with, potentially, suboptimal stats and party imbalance. Adding several points of failure, because, I guess, you think that you know what's more interesting and has more "roleplay potential" (this makes me question, whether you understand what roleplay even means and what are its goals).

[@Valkenvr]

@@a_wild_Kirillian yes, I think people are less creative than they think, and having to deal with random results from character creation and then random tables results in a more interesting game.

[@TheArcaneLibrary]

@@a_wild_Kirillian There's a very interesting game design article I once read called "Water Finds a Crack" that talks about how hard it is for players to resist an optimized method when really confronted with choosing. The article is more focused on video games, but it explores how data shows players will often sacrifice "fun" to do extremely grindy tasks that helps them slightly increase their optimization. While I don't know if that fully carries over into RPGs, it was persuasive enough that I wanted to encourage players to "let go" of the desire to optimize by making it impossible. Rolling randomly for stats plays a big part in that -- it takes being suboptimal from a painful choice into a fact of life. I'm not sure I'll ever have concrete data on how well this actually works, but I believe very unexpected and unique characters have emerged as a result of this process that would have not come about as frequently under more controlled build choice. It's all interesting to ponder!

[@tc0930]

I'm really enjoying the Shadowdark content. I have been fortunate enough to play in several sessions and I am working on a WM to run. Regarding the ability scores: being able to reroll if you don't get at least one 14+ is only an optional rule in Shadowdark. Of course, that can be the GM option or he can give the player the choice. I have found that I enjoy Shadowdark most when leaning into the RAW. Trust the system and it will reward you. I currently have a wizard I created whose original ability scores were no higher than 12. He only got to 14 intelligence with his first-level talent roll. Overcoming completely suboptimal stats is another feature of this game, I would say. The game challenges you on numerous fronts.

[@testtest648]

Awesome! I'll use sll your prep for my game. 😂

[@ogreboy8843]

In OSR, being jealous of your party members' high stats is silly... it just means they'll do a better job of standing between you and the monsters.

[@zednumar6917]

Only an RPG player can say "Hi, Mom, we're talking about murdered cultists..." without a detailed explanation to avoid the police being called.

[@phil6186]

On our 5e campign my player chose to roll in order but they could trade stats, so one who rolled rly well had some spare strenght for the player who rolled poor. We had much fun, althou not all played what they had imagined before session 0

[@williamwilliams8809]

Loved Scarlet Citadel and really looking forward to this

[@dking6021]

something really funny about a "Lawful poor" dwarf Interesting alignment chart lmao

[@daniellugo6461]

Algorithm give me more like this please.

[@GateKeeperPat]

Am I crazy... or would Shadowdark work really well with Grendleroot?

[@direden]

Thematically and narratively... definitely. I'm not sure how the one-shot style small dungeons would translate. Shadowdark's darkness, torch timer, and random encounters work best with larger dungeons. But I think you could make it work with only a little extra effort to make the maps larger.

[@gmGrudgeMonster]

Kind of want to go with everyone gets one 14 score to assign, and then roll 3d6 down the line for the 5 remaining stats.

[@simmonslucas]

love to see non 5e

[@kumithebear]

Love that you are doing Shadowdark, I'm also prepping for the Gloaming, and I'm curious on how you intend to do XP? Typically, I decide how much I want to award for the whole dungeon, then hide chunks (like Easter eggs) around the dungeon to encourage PCs to explore. I try to tie XP to a piece of treasure and lore (I'm connecting the Green Knights to Gede "fallen Nature Paladins"). Eg. You find the corpse of a Knight in rusted green-hued plate clutching a [Holy shield of Gede worth 100gp and 1XP]

[@vidgrip8622]

I have never seen a player express unhappiness that another player rolled better stats. Cooperative RPG's are an opportunity to cheer your friend's good fortune. Are you really gaming with people who don't get that?

[@TheOriginalDogLP]

It happens quite often, its jealously because of overidentification with their character, which is quite normal in modern RPG playstyle.

[@clawlesslawless]

Ive felt it. I like optimising and i didnt liked the fact that my 6 5e numbers added up to 73 and my friends were 85. Petty perhaps.

[@PhilipJensen]

Hi Sly, thanks for the great videos. When you at 29:30 say you're going to roll randomly. Do you have your own table to roll on? Or are you rolling on the tables in the core book?

[@ichifish]

The problem that I've had with straight 3d6 and low hp is when one or two characters are gimped and it hurts the party. I GM'd an OSR one-shot where the fighter and the cleric both rolled low HP. They simply couldn't do two encounters in a row. Every damn encounter sent them back to town or camping in the woods (where a random encounter generated an ogre, resulting in the death of the mage). In a game like Shadowdark that is already swingy, not having a +2 or higher on a prime stat makes it even more so.

[@mAcChaosCh]

Stats do not really matter in old school type games like Shadowdark. Everything is so RNG it gets lost in the noise, and your HP is so low you will die either way. You can't live by a build.

[@neimanhao5541]

The common problem with arrays is that everyone makes the same characters, and this is actually a really big problem. They are going to play a wizard and once they decide to play a wizard it becomes extremely obvious as to how to arrange their ability scores. As a child life is about arguing a case for how an authority figure should make life fair, as an adult life is about learning to play the hand of cards life dealt to their optimal effect. When I play D&D with people who all work jobs where they've watched people die, they don't even question the concept of 3d6 down the line: they immediately say 'oh, you just have to make it work, cool'. With actual character death being on the table, having a character with high or low stats is transient, and people with more life experience in areas with ups and downs readily understand the concept of a 'season of life', as in life during a deployment is the big suck but that it is also transient and their perspective will be wider afterwards from experiencing it. Fairness, jealousy and resentment are modes of thought that are literally for the world of children. Now, in the modern world most people can be Peter Pan and hunt at the supermarket on their way to their D&D game where they want to use an array because of all the "problems" associated with not using an array. People that understand that life is seasons will see all the problems with arrays as not expanding their outlook from having played a unique hand of cards and making it work. So I think it depends on your target audience. RPG for children? Arrays. RPG for people with enough life skills that navigating a fair playing field where all options are equally open isn't even a question and is a boring proposition? 3d6 down the line. RPG for a human over 25 in the modern world? At this point I'd say it depends much more so than it did when D&D was invented.

[@abjak2026]

Dude, it is not that deep. Not everyone likes playing games that are highly randomized, especially new players to the genre who maybe aren’t expecting the meat-grinder style of gameplay that some OSR stuff presents. Some people like the simplicity of OSR design but not the hardcore nature of it. It’s not “childish” to want players to each feel like their character is valuable to the party and feel relatively strong. I swear some of the OSR community is so elitist and thinks that stuff as simple as rolling 3d6 down the line makes them this ascended philosophically aware deity. It’s literally just a preference, bro.

[@JohnPowell6]

Instead of a prescribed standard array I had each player roll 3d6 six times, and then they chose which set of six would be the standard array for the campaign. You get the fun of rolling the dice but folks get to pick their class and everyone starts from the same place.

[@johndavey2340]

"why not use the standard array?" Well by your logic why not just make every stat a 14? Would that make everyone as fair as possible???