The Rule of Thirds vs the Golden Ratio: Which to Use?

Both of these compositional ideas hover enticingly as the magic solution to how to make better paintings. I look at both the ideas and show you how I, based on my experience, use them. Not in theory. But in practice.
Also this week I also have a long form demonstration. You can access it here: • A Tonal Landscape Demo...
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To purchase Mastering Compositon click this link: www.amazon.com/Mastering-Comp...
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#ianroberts #masteringcomposition #ruleofthirdsvsgoldenratio

[@Elaine-jc1be]

I use the rule of thirds in my paintings. Sometime ago I spent an entire day in nature with my camera, sketch book and pencil. I was totally amazed at what I saw using the Fibonacci sequence and the rule of thirds. By the the end of the day my brain was totally exhausted, in a very good way!! :)

[@annipetratos9401]

The golden ration is naturally appealing to the eye. Whether the old masters were masters because it appealed to their eyes, and so thats how they painted their pictures...or if they knew and used it purposefully...is a open to discussion. Thanks for video😊

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

you're very welcome. Glad you enjoyed it.

[@samp4050]

As a self taught novice artist, I've never heard of these things until now.....I just paint, and learn tips from you and other artists. 😄

[@kirstynewbery8012]

Thanks you Ian, I recently joined in your email tutorials and I'm enjoying what I'm learning. Watercolour is my chosen medium, so there are times of course when watching your oil painting is frustrating, but I'm learning more about composition than I thought I would. Thans again

[@olyasabeskaya620]

That's so interesting! I've been learning about composition for many years and it's the first time I hear this! thank you

[@normamiller2316]

Thought provoking and bravo for intuition. I appreciate your videos! Thank you

[@katrillion2389]

I found your vids recently and I've been loving them! I've been focusing on my art more lately and I'm learning a lot from you, so thanks

[@yeshonestly4268]

Your paintings are the best and lessons are so very useful. Thank you. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@stephenjamison6124]

Thank you yet again Ian. I do use the golden median and rule of thirds in most of my painting or more accurately I consider them when deciding on the composition. I find I always examine my processes after watching your videos. Inspiring and challenging.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Delighted you find the videos helpful. All the best

[@ushadilip3039]

Thank you 🙏🏾 Ian Robert for sharing the information about the rules of thirds and golden ration.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

My pleasure Usha.

[@danielyork3707]

Seeing through your eyes...invaluable, and freeing! Thanks for teaching👍👍

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

My pleasure Daniel.

[@marieradi-nahas767]

Thank you, Ian. I knew and understood the rule of thirds but was not so familiar with the golden ratio. Thank you for your clear explanation. A great lesson - as always. Thank you.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Thanks so much Marie.

[@redactedredacted1726]

At 6:02 I think the line is really really interesting! The side of the house and the rock outcropping lines up almost perfectly with it! Thank you for this video it has really helped me learn and work on my drawing.

[@BlackNick108]

Very interesting option and pushing design beyond boundaries. Thanks as always, Nan

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

You are so welcome Nan. Thanks for watching

[@davidchristinefischer3272]

Thank you for this demonstration, Ian. Somehow I missed this teaching in art school. It really makes all the difference in composition, hopefully I’ve been using it subconsciously as well but now I’ll be more intentional, thank you again.

[@DrWhom]

Good art schools do not teach this rubbish. So you went to a good school, which presumably you paid for, and then you went to YT where some numb nuts spouts nonsense for free... and _him_ you choose to believe?

[@chamarama9349]

You nicely explained it the golden ratio..agree with you..Most of times intuition is the better way than the calculations when we do a painting... thank you for teaching us through your experience..

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Glad you found in interesting.

[@chermontro]

Great as always Ian! And I just finished your Creative Authenticity book.. highly recommend!! Gives amazing insights throughout and so readable!

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Hi Suz, delighted you are enjoying the videos and the book! Thank you

[@SJQuirke]

Nice thinking I started using Golden Ratio - in a very disciplined way because my intuition was not producing attractive shapes - with the shapes blocked out in the design I have been able to break the rules then to create the tension Thanks This has been a useful reflection on design

[@gregautryphoto]

I remember out nighttimes in Provence, where I first began to understand about the design of a painting, while listening to your talks. This is a great enabler Ian, keep up the great work.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Thanks, as always, Greg. Best wishes.

[@user-mq9dn2hn2v]

Great explanation in minutes, thanks

[@janjimzimmer1950]

Your videos are all very helpful. Thank you!

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Glad you like them. You are so welcome

[@DannySabraArt]

This was really fascinating. I’m more and more discovering things like these as simple tools but they aren’t magic recipes. I just ordered your book and I’m excited to learn more about these concepts! Thanks Ian!

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Hi Danny, that was very much the idea of the video - not magic recipes. I'm sure you'll find lots of engaging stuff in the book. All the best

[@DannySabraArt]

@toshia spencer-beekman I’m about halfway thru and I’m really enjoying it. I think introducing those concepts has really helped my paintings so far and it’s kind of fun to look for abstract compositions maybe even ones outside the box than just looking for “subjects”

[@joannegagnon-marihart]

Humm a lot to think about for someone who is not use to these concepts. But as usual a very interesting demo and a beautiful painting ! Thank you for your time and for sharing your experience with us.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Glad you enjoyed it Joanne.

[@jonathano.7109]

Thank you very much for that. Something to think about when starting.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Glad it was helpful!

[@Souldesouse]

What a relief 😅 I’ve always felt guilty not completely understanding and utilizing the golden ratio

[@DrWhom]

There is nothing to be understood, it is rubbish.

[@k.b.woodworker3250]

Another reason that following this might work (either GR or 1/3rds) is that it prevents a person from having more than one area of interest. Said differently, it calls attention to having a single area of focus and everything else supports that. Perhaps it also prevents some "errors", in that it keeps an artist from putting things in the center or tangent to the sides. It's easier to create balance with other parts of the painting/drawing as well if the focus is not along the perimeter somewhere. Of course, there are those who successfully break the "rules" by putting things in the center or along the perimeter. Great video, thanks!

[@aliciamolloy5948]

Thank you for your great explanation!

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Glad it was helpful Alicia.

[@1969kbl]

Beautiful. Now I have your book next on my list of important things to buy.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Glad you found it helpful. You will enjoy the books! Thanks Katrina

[@viviandibrell849]

Glad to hear this. It is more sensible to use these as a tool or not with awareness of why or why not you are using them.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Yes, thank you Vivian. All the best

[@DreamerGirlForever]

I had never really understood the Golden Ratio or even see it in images, this helped greatly with that. I do think I'll watch this video again. Have saved it in a playlist for future reference. Thank you Ian. By the way, I paint using Acrylics and am playing with watercolour, even though you use oils I find that your information crosses over to other mediums. I have some oils and plan to play around with then in the future.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Makes me so happy to hear. Thank you for watching and the kind words Kim

[@Jazzgriot]

Yes. Very good indeed.

[@timhorn1141]

Great video Ian!!!!!

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Tim, so nice to hear from you. Back from Maine? My very best wishes.

[@gaylemartin6498]

Very interesting, Ian. Thank you. Take care. g

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Glad you enjoyed it Gayle. All the very best to you.

[@GabrielStocktonWatercolors]

Thank you Ian 👍🏻

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Very welcome Gabriel.

[@mohammedothmane1632]

thank you ian for the ARABIC translation , my dad watch your videos too, much love from morocco

[@alisonhendry2928]

Hoorah! Going outside that blasted focal point cross hair! I do it often and then hear a silly voice telling me... uh uh uh... but then I listen to that feeling you talked about and ignore that annoying voice and it can work! I love how you describe these methods and I LOVE the golden mean and often do it without measuring as it “ feels” right. You have the greatest and BEST way of approaching how to teach mastering of composition. I am SO happy to have found your gifts.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Thank you very much Alison. I appreciate your telling me.

[@alisonhendry2928]

@@IanRobertsMasteringComposition thank you for taking so much of your time and engaging with your fans / groupies too. 🤣🤣 I hear your voice when I am developing a painting... where is the vertical, the horizontal... where is it the eye led... what is pulling us in or making us drop out... fabulous.

[@alisonhendry2928]

Oh and shapes shapes shapes....

[@thisandthatdailylife9081]

Hi I researched the golden triangle etc and had the same thought you expressed that at times people were really making a stretch to suggest it was consciously used in the paintings by the masters. You see what you want to see! I have found dynamic symmetry useful in improving my compositions. They lacked punch and by laying the grid over my sketches i could see opportunities to add a wow factor but you can’t just place everything by the grid you have to be selective. I found it just improved my discipline of planning and applying it with discretion Enjoy your videos. Thanks for sharing your knowledge

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

HI Bev, I sort of have the same problem with dynamic symmetry as with as you say seeing this complex structure imposed on an Old Masster painting. The dynamic symmetry structure just seems too overwhelming to be helpful. For me. You're saying I think, don't use all of it. Just align some things and leave the rest. Don't force it. I always think more complex structures like that could be interesting with non representational painting. Anyway, delighted you are enjoying the videos.

[@thisandthatdailylife9081]

@@IanRobertsMasteringComposition Yes exactly. I drew a dynamic symmetry grid on a piece of acetate ( the math can be daunting ) and overlay it on drawings sometimes to help find ways to improve it. Mostly now it has become instinctive but doing that gave my compositions a big boost for impact. I can’t imagine using it every time and it’s a tool it can’t be applied blanket style. It was very helpful shoring me better options for angles of lines that improved the plan dramatically. Use with discretion !

[@edlundl]

Instead of the rule of thirds, I multiply the dimensions of my canvas by .618, which is also a golden ratio. BTW, I went to the Farnsworth in Rockport, Maine. There were two large paintings by NC Wyeth, one he had started and never finished, and then the one he did complete. It was very interesting to see the changes he made. They were for the better. He was primarily known as a book illustrator, but he commented (in that blurb that’s always beside a painting) about how much he enjoyed painting in a much different style. Would you like me to post them? I think everyone would enjoy seeing them. Linda

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Hi Linda, when I visited the Brandywine Museum, I was blown away by N.C Wyeth's illustrations. Big, richly painted oil paintings. You would never be able to see all nuance in an magazine printing. I loved them. Now I'd love to see the two illustrations. Can you post them here? Did know it was possible. Not sure if I'll know that they are there. A first. But give it a try. Thanks and all the best.

[@edlundl]

@@IanRobertsMasteringComposition one of my photos was a little wonky, but I’m going Back to the Farnsworth tomorrow, so I’ll do it after that. I’ll try to get his comments, too.

[@lisengel2498]

Hi Linda I will also like very much to see your postings - and if possible here 😊🍀

[@edlundl]

@@lisengel2498 hi Lis, I tried, but I can’t figure it out. I could message you or communicate through IG.

[@lisengel2498]

Yes indeed Linda Edlund I would like very much that you posted them -

[@georgeedward1226]

I agree that intuition is more likely to help one compose a painting than imposing a mathematical formula on it. It's a fascinating discussion, however, and shows that people are thinking beyond the obvious if nothing else. Excellent food for thought.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

HI George, I really like how you came away from that. More ways to think about it. That's great. Thanks.

[@JohnTravena]

This is helpful. I photograph and draw and have always used the rule of thirds but have been somewhat confused about the golden ratio. Had the sense that maybe it was imposed on the work after the fact in many instances. Maybe the golden ratio is more useful in other art forms, say architecture or furniture making, where the whole form is constructed unlike photography or other mediums where you are limited by the environment you are trying to capture.

[@augustomariogoulartpimenta4727]

Great chanel! Thanks from Brasil!

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Hey Augusto, hello from LA to Brazil.

[@miamoorhead9774]

Thank you very much!

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

You're welcome Mia.

[@KpxUrz5745]

I commented on this video once before, and here it pops up again for me. I would have to say that all paintings would benefit much more from other factors than any adherence to either of these often-used compositional underpinnings. In other words, I see that focusing on some math structure is a distracting red herring compared to the many more important goals for an artist to seek. I am speaking of things like top level paint handling and brushwork, really effective color choices and color relationships, meaningful subject matter, and such things as dynamism and very good drawing ability. There are so many more. I worked a lot with the golden section and grids long ago, and in the end became quite bored with them. From my viewpoint, just because it can be shown that golden section ratios occur throughout nature does not mean that they represent any ideal beauty.

[@geraldmiller347]

Simple, Succinct, went back and can find I was close to Golden Third on most. But no All, those, when I missed it was due to over-thinking and over- working. Thanks

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Glad you liked it Gerald. It's interesting how overthinking cramps our intuition.

[@chantelmcskimming6633]

Thank you. 😊

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

You're welcome Chantel

[@Argyll9846]

I did my thesis on proportions and proportioning systems in architecture four decades ago and while the golden ratio has many applications in classical architecture it's use in painting seems, to me at least, to be somewhat 'forced.' The rule of thirds, on the other hand, seems much more applicable to painting/photography and the illustrative arts. It's easy to use, well understood and relatively easy to master, manipulate and play around with whereas the golden rectangle is much more confining and rigid when it comes to its application. Playing with a square and an arc in architecture to form pleasing proportions is satisfying in visual terms but challenging when it comes to building layout and design which is why it was more used in classical building facades rather than interior layouts, although it's use there cannot be dismissed. Personally when drawing or taking photographs I usually stick with the rule of thirds as that always seems to give me the most pleasing results, but experimenting with placing a visual centre of interests does give some very 'dynamic' results. I really enjoy your videos and look forward to viewing them each week.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Thanks so much Nicholas. Enjoyed your comments here on your experience of these ideas in architecture.

[@GloomBloomGroove]

I love this thank you

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

I'm so glad Tian

[@dougarnold7955]

Sweet! 👍

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Thanks Doug.

[@smasica]

An approximation of the Golden Ratio is about 3/5ths to 2/5ths or a bit less than 70% to a bit more than 30%. The Rule of Thirds is easier for most people to work with. I guess you can call it the 'Tic-Tac-Toe' method. As you mentioned, people sometimes get caught up in the 'secret sauce' quest thinking, "If I can just find the right brush or color or canvas or medium or whatever, then my painting will sing." The art is in the execution, not the tools. A great drawing can be done on cardboard with a piece of charcoal from a dead campfire.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

I like that the Tic-Tac-Toe method. I'll have to remember that.

[@jimmiesutton8468]

Oh! do I love you comment!!!

[@dazzlingdazmondo]

Ian...thanks for the video! Could you mention in the studio session/tour whether you use/have used medium (Liquin) or not...we don't see you use it on the pallet so am assuming you don't. I'm intrigued abut drying etc 👍😀

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

HI Darren, just working on the studio video and in fact the mediums turned out to be an important part. So yes, will talk about it.

[@Polecat54941]

I learned about the golden ratio recently so made some calipers and checked some of my paintings I retained from way back and found most of them fitted exactly into the caliper so I guess it is something we naturally do rather than have to be aware of?

[@georgeedward1226]

Great timing. I went on a Fibonacci research binge recently. Still trying to figure out exactly how it applies to art. Thanks for the help.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Well, that is the question isn't it? Not rigidly I would say, unless it was some kind of geometric abstraction. All the best.

[@susankahn7219]

I think for beginner painters the Golden Section should be taught. Sadly it is not taught in art schools. Myron Barnstone taught it as an essential learning tool. And as you say, practicing the Golden Ratio or Golden Section, allows the painter to train their eye.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

So much is in training the eye I think, as you point out.

[@oficinamaolivre]

Thank you! Like

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Thank you.

[@roberthale2268]

Very interesting

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Glad you think so Robert. All the best.

[@mbegonasastre6938]

Thank you

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

You're welcome.

[@allanpennington]

Im doing watercolours on Arches Block which is 20" x 14". I don't think this fits into the golden ratio specifically. But what aspect ratio would be ideal for landscape paintings.

[@jajphotog77]

I use both of them in general. I find that if I actively try to impose them on any of my work, it restricts my creative process. If I just do what I want and work with the shapes, what comes out as nice is close to them.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

I like the idea of pushing beyond the sweet spots of the thirds as I've mentioned. But a lot of the rest of it, I agree with you, you just feel your way forward.

[@jimmiesutton8468]

I really appreciate your comment! Ian does say right off the bat, that the concept if bit stretched! one other comment a person stated it seems a bit natural for those who paint regularly! thanks much!

[@isabellacalisi-wagner3699]

It would be great if you were offered to do a PBS show. ☺️

[@2B87]

Acknowledge the rules to then bend them into creating tension and interest to arrive(in the best case) at a point of a personalized version - your style.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Pretty much sums it up.

[@marcruede2672]

As a painting trader or trading painter... I see Fibonacci in both activities - it's fascinating what we owe to this italian Middle East traveller (responsible for the fact that we use arabic numbers today....)

[@rm367]

Wow. This is exactly how I take photos, never realising it’s fibonacci

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Hi Rachel, that's interesting. Best wishes.

[@usetherightbrain.]

the rule of thirds is a shortcut for golden ratio/Fibonacci: if you don't care to actually do the math [f(n)=f(n-1) + f(n-2)], you can create the 1/3rds grid , then you can pick the centre of attention at one of the recommended intersection points, but that really roughly divides the paper into 1/3- 2/3 , which is roughly the golden ratio. I think most artists do this instinctively. People instinctively do more math in their head than they realize...think of when we're walking or driving , cooking, etc , we never think in terms of ratios, velocities , focus accelerations, turn radi. LOL. If you need more convincing, you can take the image at 2:06 and divide the grid into 1/3rds and roughly get the same divisions as seen on the actual Fibonacci tracing.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

I felt I was sort of making the same point. Not to get too hung up on the math and the theory, and realize a lot of it is intuitive. Thanks for your comment.

[@Winnie-2609]

I love the golden ratio

[@KpxUrz5745]

I, too, have considered these formulaic precepts for decades as potential compositional aids. And have arrived at the conclusion to just ignore all such precepts. One can say, yes, dynamism is often used and desired, but not always. There are so many much more important aspects of making a good work of art. So, if the lesson here is to be aware of such ideas, I would agree. But the better lesson is to know when to ignore formulaic methods, and what are improved ways to override them.

[@johnsharp1942]

Well explained but can’t find link to longer video

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Hi John, it should be right below the video. You might have to click on show more to see it. Best wishes,

[@Surai00]

I think, correlation does not imply causation, especially when it comes to why artists choose where to put things. Does it feel right because it looks good, or does it look good because it feels right? Did the artist even think, or did they just put it there because 'that's where it belongs'?

[@WendyDaCanuck]

I was always taught that with the rule of thirds you don’t want to have your centre of interest right on one of the four “sweet spots” that you get but instead you want your centre of interest near one of those sweet spots because if you put it right on the sweet spot then it is a little too regular and boring.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Hi Wendy, I don't think there's anything wrong with having the center of interest right on one of those sweet spots. But sometimes. Not always. That's why I suggested thinking about putting the center of interest out beyond them. Just the idea of creating more options. all the best.

[@user-dh5jq8nk5w]

👍👍👍

[@anamariacosma4265]

Hi Ian, can you please help me with a dilema? I mostly paint children's book illustration. If I have a scene on a page spread is it better to use the rule of thirds for the entire spread or the rule of thirds for each page (left/right)? This gets event more questionable if the 1 page dimension is the standard landscape 8.5"x 11" - which makes the page spread very wide :) Thank you and very best wishes !

[@DrWhom]

These so-called rules are just pseudomathematical nonsense, which keep cropping up because neither self-appointed art teachers nor their unsuspecting students know the first thing about mathematics. If things do not look right to you, don't do it.

[@FuchsiaRosa]

finally the golden ratio you will be unstoppable on twitter jokes aside Heh I suck and painting and never heard of golden ratio but I wanna learn

[@riffsandpics]

Yes, intuition, the analog computer, is the fastest one. I wonder why the ratios appeal to us visually though. Is it the dynamism that they create that we are naturally drawn to maybe?

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

I'm thinking it is about proportions and finding we are attracted to some because they are in fact the proportions that structure nature.

[@kevinhaynes9091]

Picture the scene (so to speak!). I'm walking along a coastal trail on a glorious sunny day, there's a gentle breeze, and on the horizon, moody storm clouds are gathering. One might say that it's a perfect vista. I'm told that the field of vision is 120 degrees of arc, however most of that is blurry peripheral vision. There are no compositional rules in this vista. There's no rule of thirds, there's no golden ratio, and most of what I'm perceiving is an indistinct blur, yet no photo or canvas, with any amount of compositional rules applied, will capture the sheer majesty and beauty of this visual experience. I'm not trying to be clever, and I'm not trying to be facetious, but my question is... what happens between the two experiences, that being there, with all it's compositional imperfections, will be an objectively better visual experience, than looking at a perfectly composed photograph or painting of the same scene? My initial thought is that the former is a visceral experience, and the latter is an intellectual experience, but surely both can be either...

[@BibleStudyPastor]

I'm a bit confused. I learned that the rule of thirds helped you place your center of interest near one of the four intersections which tends to make the painting agreeable to the human eye. I've found helpful (often). But the examples you gave were using what would be "expected" using the rule of thirds and then going beyond it to create "dynamism" or cognitive dissonance and thus emphasis. Do both of these uses of the rule of thirds have their place, or do I misunderstand?

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Hi Ralph, they are both useful. I'm just talking about pushing design. Perhaps not always. But knowing it is there to do. Stretching the options. All the best

[@catblue6393]

👍🏻

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Thanks!

[@paulah317]

Oh my. The golden ratio. I'll have nightmares for a week now. It brought back bad memories of algebra and geometry back in my high school days. I barely passed. I'm retired now. Gotta go get me some melatonin. Rule of thirds I understand.

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Hi Paula, I knew that a b thing would give some people the dreaded math class sweats. I'd just forget it and move on to the thirds.

[@jimmiesutton8468]

Don't feel alone!

[@theodoresweger4948]

T don;t have the choicce in my camera but do have the choice in photo shop

[@rutherford5247]

I still dont understand the golden ration thingy and its significance

[@meredithfrauzel5204]

I can’t wait until composition becomes more intuitive than calculating. Maybe in another 20 years of painting😂

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

Hi Meredith, it won't take that long!

[@dr.koupop880]

Couldn't that be said with any form of construction? "it's made to fit"? It feels like that to me in most cases cause if it was that simple, most artists would be masters.

[@youarecorrectiamcrazy]

I dont understand anything😂😂😂

[@normanmerrill1241]

I do not understand the golden ratio…at all…I like instincts…I know when it works and I know when it doesn’t…thanks

[@IanRobertsMasteringComposition]

That's pretty much where I am too. I don't think I've ever measured a golden ratio. But I'm surprised at how often I've lined things up along it after the fact.

[@DrWhom]

Neither. Don't be teaching pseudo mathematics.