The secret to better D&D Dungeons (and Defense of the Funhouse)

Everything you need to create the best dungeons is here in this video. Do you want to learn the tricks for creating a fantasy dungeons from a Dungeon Master with over 40 years of gaming experience? Let this video guide you to the secret Dungeon Master tricks to creating the best fantasy dungeons!
00:00 Introduction
02:39 Dungeon Design History
07:04 Practical Dungeon Tips
11:46 Embracing Funhouse Dungeons
13:45 Designing with Purpose
21:27 Example Dungeon Walkthrough
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[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

This video is outstanding. This channel is going to be huge. Keep creating. May all your rolls be 20s!

[@welovettrpgs]

You are so wonderful! And I am blushing. Thank you I'm a big fan! Much love Aten

[@asafoetidajones8181]

This is so disrespectful to AD&D players. You want me to fail every skill check?!

[@MattSmith83]

@@asafoetidajones8181 😂

[@takanobaierun]

The Prof. is in

[@shayulghul]

Agreed. Real-world castles (both East and West) had defensible designs that included switchbacks, traps, and layouts that would confuse strangers. A confusing or funhouse design is perfect for repelling trespassers.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks! I designed a recent dungeon using those real world strategies.(they'll have to go all the way up to go all the way down.)

[@Lowe505]

There was a mansion here in Chicago that H. H. Holmes one of the first serial murderers in America lived in. It was described just as you described the Winchester mystery house. I believe he dissolved his victims in acid in the basement and had all kinds of stairways to nowhere secret rooms etc. They called it the "Murder Castle". Gruesome stuff lol.

[@welovettrpgs]

Hi buddy! I will be talking about that in my traps video .. but ... this may be surprising ... although he did kill a few people that we know of (he claimed to have killed over 200 and a distant relative was recently trying to claim Holmes was Jack the Ripper ... but both of those have been debunked) it appears that a lot of the stuff we've heard about his murder castle may have been fabricated by the newspapers at the time trying to sell papers with exaggerated claims. It appears that it stuck in our collective urban myths though. I had totally fell for it too but was researching it for my real life work and the whole thing fell apart into myths.

[@MenschWerdeWesentlich]

@@welovettrpgs Yeah, it’s almost disappointing how it didn’t live up to its sensationalistic reputation. It’s almost like there has always been money or attention to be made from people’s fascination for the macabre. The vastly exaggerated and simplistic representation of the so-called dark ages is another such phenomenon.

[@welovettrpgs]

@@MenschWerdeWesentlich for sure!

[@queenannsrevenge100]

I close my eyes, and Nick Offerman is giving me expert dungeon design advice 😄 Thank you for your excellent video on dungeon design. Many of these ideas I’ve picked up through many years of running D&D and Pathfinder, but there are some things I’ve never thought about before; thank you!

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you very much!

[@GKahla]

Great point about others' declaiming hard rules being about them revealing their own limitations! Lovely summation about the salient points; consistency, history, and consequences. Thanks, Aten!

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you very much!

[@benschrose]

hearing about passion for a hobby and about opinions is never a waste of time. it expands the horizon. any bit of it might be new information for any of us. so dont sweat it so much :D

[@welovettrpgs]

thanks, but it's hot in these clothes, i sweat! :p

[@artistpoet5253]

I've been designing on a point crawl method which helps get the areas down and set. I've looked into Crown and Skull from Runehammer recently and really like the mapless dungeon set up. This video fits into this design plan quite nicely as all I'll have to do is come up with the lists of monsters, traps, events and areas and just focus on what makes sense in the world instead of fussing on about with maps and layout.

[@welovettrpgs]

Oh thats cool! I'll have to look into that. Thanks!

[@LB_adventurer]

I also forgot to add.... I am now subscribed. Thanks for the videos.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you! Great to have you join us!

[@BobWorldBuilder]

Glad this came up in my feed! Great discussion

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks Bob! It's really great to hear from you! You're awesome and everything you do is amazing! Thanks!

[@heli0mancer]

I wanted to say that I love your content. I've been playing 5e for a few years now and I've been DMing for just over a year and your advice has been the most rewarding and fruitful for my weird brain. "Creativity is like a muscle" is definitely true. I know it to be true as my creativity has never been more tested as a DM. Keep doing what you do. I love the sage wisdom you have as well as your respect and love for creative freedom.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you! I'm very appreciative to hear this has helped you! More to come!

[@zombi3DS]

The timing of this is great. I'm working on a dungeon right now and realizing I might have overplanned.

[@welovettrpgs]

How do you feel you overplanned?

[@zombi3DS]

@@welovettrpgs My first floor is 206 rooms, segmented into 4 maps that are 130x102 and 1 map that is 126x114. And many rooms are nearly empty because both uncoordinated and coordinated groups have been delving it already. No one has figured out how to open the door that leads to second floor yet so the PCs will start seeing everything fresh and untouched.

[@welovettrpgs]

@@zombi3DS I have a few notebooks full of maps. It's not uncommon to "overplan" but I never regretted it, it's just practice and it's fun to create.

[@MenschWerdeWesentlich]

Not sure what to make of the channel yet. Do I need another one in my life? Most likely not, but the big effort of a small creator really showed. Nicely done! I‘m subscribing, for now just to keep an eye on this one.

[@AJBernard]

This is the first of your videos I have found, but it was good! Liked and subbed. Looking forward to seeing more of your content!

[@welovettrpgs]

Great thanks!

[@mjp152]

The point about unknown reasons for things being as they are is so spot on - allow me to expand a bit on it. Several times my players have gifted me future plot hooks by openly discussing why some detail in a dungeon was a certain way. Often times it was something that I hadn't even considered that they would latch on to. In those situations I have learned to quickly jot down the salient points of their discussions and develop their ideas further for future sessions. Not only does this make my work easier, it also makes the players feel smart because they "figured out the plot".

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks! I have as "DM's Secrets" video that I uploaded early in my KZbin journey (last year lol) that covers the importance of listening to and stealing ideas from your players!

[@mjp152]

@@welovettrpgs And thank YOU. Love your channel - has quickly becomes one of my favorites. Nice to see fellow middle aged nerds representing. Gotta stick together and show the young bloods how its done 😄

[@welovettrpgs]

@@mjp152 for sure

[@social_ghost]

Just got recommended this video and I have to say it was excellent. As someone really into both the history of DnD and playing older editions I love it anytime anyone speaks favorably of funhouse dungeons and older design ideas. And to anyone who may be reading this and is looking for a practical example of a dungeon I can't recommend anything better than 'Dyson's Delve' by Dyson Logos as a starting point.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you and geat advice! We have a very engaged community here and we love hearing tips from everyone!

[@asturias0267]

I just discovered this channel and I already love it. I'm planning to start DMing soon and this information is very helpful.

[@welovettrpgs]

Great to hear! I have some more videos for new DMs coming up as well as those already posted.

[@maatlock]

This video rocked dude! I can't wait to see more content from you. I loved this take on dungeon design, especially the words of wisdom scattered throughout about not limiting your creativity. Stellar

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you!

[@doctorlolchicken7478]

Excellent advice. In fantasy settings I’d go further and say that players want at least some craziness. Once you’ve stormed one realistic castle, you’ve stormed them all. In fact, realistic castles are not much fun since there’s often little room to swing a sword. You don’t have to go totally funhouse, just have a little weird and don’t explain it - let the players speculate. For example I recently had a dungeon with a large tall room open to the sky, but if players made the effort to climb out the ceiling - which was not easy - they found they weren’t anywhere near where they entered the dungeon. Similarly, you can have buildings that are bigger on the inside, or dungeons that keep going up even though that should put you above ground. One reason I like the “Dolmenwood” setting for Old School Essentials is that they do this stuff all the time, like having a tomb with a whole Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe setting in the lower level. Look at it like this: In video games, the most praised RPGs often have crazy worlds. No one plays Morrowind, Baldur’s Gate or Dark Souls and goes, “Well that made no sense. I quit. “

[@welovettrpgs]

Excellent!

[@KabukiKid]

Personally, I love the occasional "funhouse dungeon." :-) Some of my favorite published adventures are funhouse dungeons. It's a fantasy game... let it be fantastical! ^_^ Great video, Aten... please keep them coming. :-)

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you! And I love fun too! People who don't like fun turn into poop poo monsters!

[@matthewhanson701]

Exceptional work. More, please! 💛

[@welovettrpgs]

For sure! thanks!

[@dmcdraws]

You really upped your delivery and energy in this one Aten! Great video!

[@welovettrpgs]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@xezazase]

This adventure you're running...with the skulk tunnels and the sisters of (something)...this sounds fun. I wish that were something I could watch on here.

[@welovettrpgs]

thanks!

[@Kaotiqua]

I'm here because a hack did a really annoying "reaction" video to this one. I'm not even going to post his name, because he doesn't deserve a single hit. He didn't link your channel or your vid, and was generally rude. MEANWHILE, _you_ sir, were interesting, well-spoken, and entertaining. Took me a bit of effort to find you, but here I am. Started my DMing journey in 1979, and I've never stopped learning. Liked, Subbed, rang the bell. Looking forward to your vids.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you very much! Great to have you!

[@greatjamama]

110% agree. There is so much emphasis these days on realism that people aren’t making FUN dungeons anymore.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks! Yeah, and why would anyone "play" a "game" if it wasn't fun? It boggles the mind.

[@Menzobarrenza]

This video gave an amazing first impression. Subscribed and toggled on all notifications. I'm working on a "reasonable" Megadungeon with an logical explanation for all features, including a detailed ecology, and this seems like a great channel to get inspiration and other perspectives from.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks! Glad to have you here!

[@Menzobarrenza]

​​​@@welovettrpgsThanks for having me! I'm actually a second-generation DM as my dad DMed for his friends in his youth, and for my brother and I when we were younger. I'm currently DMing my third campaign, and think I've greatly improved from my first.

[@asafoetidajones8181]

I gel with your perspective and agree on almost everything. Specifically, when I started playing in 1990 or 91, the prevailing sentiment was sort of modernist, in the sense that some of the elements of what we now call the OSR were viewed as stupid or outdated. Funhouse dungeons were one of those things, and we (me, my friends, and people who wrote sourcebooks and supplements) went on and on about realism, verisimilitude and such in terms of dungeon ecology. Everything had to make sense. I remember carefully adding another shit ditch to a dungeon thinking "hmmm.. 64 total kobolds across the complex, one latrine won't cut it". There's something admirable in that, but it can suck the fun out of a game if left to spread unchecked. Anyone who's lifted an entire building design from reality for a modern game can tell you that raiding a simple normal office complex in a TTRPG can feel like an impossible labyrinth of redundancy and confusion, because navigating an imaginary building is harder than navigating a real one. Also, when I visit my wife in the hospital in an hour, I'm not going to be trying to open every janitor closet, or assaulting the staff if parley fails, or carrying the heavy but valuable loot like x ray machines back to my home base. Your real life examples are good. There's this semi famous rpg meme of a bridge in New Orleans, that violates all conventional TTRPG design logic in terms of being realistic or having verisimilitude, but clearly is realistic, given that it is actually real. Look at some maps of real catacombs in eastern Europe, or a real sewer system map, or even the Wikipedia page for Australian aboriginal marriage and reproductive customs, and you'll find reality is often too complex and too unrealistic for D&D. Meanwhile there I am in 1993 scoffing at the tomb of horrors as primitive and haphazard design, only to see its brilliance in 2023 when I'm willing to take it as what it is - an whimsical, insane "fuck you", a fever dream of intentional, artistic antirationality, rather than demand it fit my rules of fairness, explicability, etc. Cause yeah an insane guy built it to fuck with adventurers (Gary or Acererak, take your pick) and eat their lunch, and that's fun and funny. I know now that my formative years with AD&D 1 & 2e are "trad" culture, not Old School, and that trad focused on LotR and its descendants, the fantasy novel trilogies/series like Shannara, wheel of time, memory sorrow & thorn, etc. While old school follow appendix N's pulp in Elric, Fafhrd & grey mouser (not looking spelling up), conan and others. My attitude and play style was typical of that culture: long journeys overland, lots of superfluous worldbuilding, big dramatic plots with the fate of the world at stake, almost a disdain for dungeoneering for dungeoneering's sake with all the instakills and traps and tiptoeing. It wasn't until I encountered the OSR that I softened on and started to enjoy that stuff. Great video. But isn't Holmes 1977, and Moldvay 1981?

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you for the great fgeedback! I appreciate it. Original publications of Holmes was 77 but my copy was 1979 and I began playing in 1980. I always think my buddy Dennis got his Molday in December of 80 but it had to be January of 81 for that. Thanks! There was a few different versions of Holmes too, the box sets came in a couple different version until later when it was releases as just the book. I have a video covering Holmes basic on the channel.

[@asafoetidajones8181]

@@welovettrpgs another kind of interesting sidenote in terms of counterintuitive design, maybe a reason why something isn't made in an ideal fashion or seems to be done wrong: 1400s to 1600s personal weapon culture, ranged across social classes. A German of approximately middle class might wear a "hanger", a single edged short sword or huge knife of simple design, while a Spanish noble might wear a heavy rapier, later a French courtier a jeweled smallsword - most of which were made by commission. That meant someone might ask for a feature that wasn't sensible or standard, and pay or whine enough to convince the smith to do it against their objections. A lot of people study the histories of tools and weapons looking for their features to make practical sense and forget stupid humans existed 500 years ago also. Or features that made a ton of sense for a practical, but not directly practical, or immediately obvious reason. My dad collects antique guns, and sometimes they have counterintuitive or even outright bad design deliberately *because they were designed to dodge patents*, or to stand out visually, offering useless but well-marketed gimmick features, like a revolver with inconvenient sleeves the bullets needed to fit into before being loaded in the cylinder, as that company was not then legally able to sell a directly bored cylinder. In a fantasy context we could easily extrapolate that concept into "if this building has 90* angles, it makes the summoning circle inside fail" or "mad king Wentgarth forbids bladed weapons in his kingdom, after the princess cut her finger on a cheese knife: you must cut your meat and cheese with garrotte wires"

[@welovettrpgs]

@@asafoetidajones8181 very cool! Reminds me of a George Carlin quote, "Nail two things together that have never been nailed together and some Shmuck will buy it." And you're so right, stupidity isn't a new thing.

[@tabletoptaproom]

I can think of a few real-world examples of dungeons that totally invalidate the 5 room dungeon design, love that you defended the fun house type dungeon but also love the thoughtful examination of the topic.

[@nocharge7189]

This video is really well made and very interesting!! I'll make sure to keep up with your content!

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks!

[@Mark-nh2hs]

Going to be an interesting mini series - esp the psychology aspect.

[@welovettrpgs]

thanks!

[@archlittle6067]

A Wood Elf level 1 Druid/level 9 Wizard with Criminal Background can make a modular dungeon in a year. The dungeon has 130,000 cubic feet of open space underground and up to 130 rooms above, is inside a permanent Mordekainen Private Sanctum and has a permanent Teleportation Circle, with traps made, set and hidden. The Elf has two skilled feats for mason, carpenter, woodcutter, leather maker, smith and weaver. Pick any location. Fabricate 125 cubic feet of bricks from an area of rock 4 times/day (3+1 with Arcane Recovery). Animated skeletons move these onto a pallet and eventually hollow out the area of the spell. Then Floating Disk them to the surface. Use the bricks to build an above ground structure. This creates 500 cu. ft. of open space per day underground. That's 130 (10'x10'x10') cubes of open space per year (260 work days). A 10 foot cube of bricks can form 20 flat sections of 10 ft. x 10 ft. that are six inches thick to make a room 20 ft. x 20 ft. ten feet high with walls, floor, ceiling and interior supports. So, 130 such rooms above ground. Cast Mordekainen's Private Sanctum at 5th level every day for that year to make it permanent throughout the dungeon area. That's a compound 200 ft. x 100 ft. with the total area above and below ground of 100 feet in depth. The Circle is also made permanent by daily casting. The Circle is on the roof of the structure. The floor the Circle is on can be raised above the Sanctum with a mechanical crank so that it works outside of the Sanctum's effect. In addition to self use, the Wizard could make this as the henchman for a higher level character or even for the PC party. Arcane Locks (25 gold cost), Magic Mouth (10g), Snares (0), Glyph of Warding (200g) and C. Flame (50g) can be added at an additional expense. PHB pg. 285: "For example, a common item might confer the benefit of a 1st-level spell once per day (or just once if it's consumable)." So once per day a large stone table common Magic Item (MI) can cast Goodberry and a stone trough can cast Create 14 gallons of water. Several of these could support a garrison. Other "once per day" MIs might cure wounds or cast animal friendship. Each day, the Elf casts Private sanctum 10 min. and Teleportation circle 1 min. and on work days 4 Fabricate 40 min., Floating disk 10 min. for an hour, and 2 Animate dead 2 min. while crafting a potion or MI for 8 hours. An Elf might make a hundred or more of these dungeons over their lifetime.

[@welovettrpgs]

interesting. I have a 1st level one shot where the PCs stumble on the lair of a Medusa ... only it turns out not to be a Medusa but just a Dwarven stone carver that wants to be alone so he decorates the area around his home to look like victims of a Medusa.

[@Ekaidseaky]

You legit look like a court wizard npc. A majestic aura

[@welovettrpgs]

ah tyvm :)

[@johnnysmythe2552]

Another excellent video, and who doesn’t chuckle at poop monsters. That goes all the way back to 1981 for me lol

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you!! Fart jokes are the best! A real crowd pleaser. lol

[@dwarvesanddragons6948]

Great video, I'm new to this channel but so far I really like what you post

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks and welcome! I appreciate it!

[@C0365086]

I appreciate these videos you're putting out, I enjoy both the aesthetic and the advice. I also found out that, while doing the dishes and relistening to this video, the cadence of your voice strikes me as similar to that of famed actor, Nicholas Cage. So thanks for that as well!

[@welovettrpgs]

That's great! That explains why another person called me Nicholas Cage as well. :)

[@Darkwintre]

Oh nice a frozen lake in the middle of a desert, need to remember that!

[@welovettrpgs]

Things that'll leave your PCs confused and you never even need to explain it.

[@MemphiStig]

In case no one mentioned it, newer players should understand the "Monty Haul" reference. Monty *Hall* was the host of Let's Make A Deal bitd, and the term came to mean a style of play where the pc's got lots of loot, an overly generous *Haul* which typically quickly unbalanced the game and made them either super-rich or way op. It was very common to hear it bitd, and it was always used as a pejorative for DM's to avoid at all cost. Btw, for the record, I'm a Mounds guy. I take no joy in almonds. But deep dark chocolate and chewy coconut? OOH! Also, good video.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks! Yes, I forget some of our old 80s terms might not be as well known today.

[@macoppy6571]

5 Room, 5 + 5 Room, random generation that fits on one page? To make a one page dungeon for tonight's game!

[@welovettrpgs]

Your dungeon sizez really doesn't matter - it just needs to fit your needs.

[@minnion2871]

On the subject of a sewer dungeon, one thing I thought would also be a fun addition would be narrower pipes that the players could potentially crawl through to move between the main access tunnels.... (Of course these tunnels might occasionally flood with waste as people flush their toilets or run water making the already tight crawl into difficult terrain as the players contend with a water current pushing against them.....

[@welovettrpgs]

Absolutely! Crawling in pipes came up in the game and I'll address some of that in the next videos. I have this random encounter table and I always let my players roll chance for encounter and encounter result. This tends to give them a better emotional connection to the results. Almost immediately after they enterted next to a pipe the rolled and got a random result - a clogged pipe which then burst .. and it got messy after that .. but a player cast stone shape and clogged the pipe with the wall.

[@WTFoolproof]

excellent, my fav.

[@welovettrpgs]

Glad you like it!

[@colinleat8309]

Thanks Aten 👍. Always loved the classic Dungeon Crawl. 🤘☺️🖖🇨🇦

[@welovettrpgs]

You bet!

[@kontrarien5721]

Great video. Regardless of what you make and why, I think the ultimate judgement is whether or not it's fun for players. My understanding of all the rules and guidelines is that they're all about creating a good experience at the table.

[@welovettrpgs]

You are correct.

[@HistoricOutdoors]

My players are always terrified of going underground. Tripping in the dark, torches going out, following a wall by hand and missing the exit a dozen times, only to find out they are lost and assailed on all sides by things they can't see. Oh' crap, we've stumbled into the underdark... After weeks lost I threw them a bone in the form of an outlaw drow merchant who didn't hate humans and would resupply them at premium prices. She had an underground shop that served as a trade post between the surface and underdark. Fortunately some surplus surface items were of higher value down under.

[@welovettrpgs]

good ideas!

[@Geraint3000]

OMG - this was fantastic Aten! I'm going to check out the Winchester mansion now. But really inspiring wise advice. Thank you!

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you!

[@AJarOfYams]

This has been very useful to me. I've been wanting to get into DMing, but I have felt like there has been a mountain to overcome just to get started. One of my fears is getting harshly scolded if I do something incorrectly, especially if I am new at something

[@welovettrpgs]

You have voiced one of my big concerns with a LOT of he "DM advice" out there. I personally think the perceived mountains new DMs have before them is too much but in reality it's others makng everything more complicated than it needs to be. I have a "New DM vs Experienced DM" video planned on my schedule to address this very issue. Just don't ruin with scissors and everything is fine.

[@user-gq7du8jb9f]

Great content; I look forward to future videos.

[@welovettrpgs]

Awesome, thank you!

[@jimappleton6042]

Hi. Found your video by accident and really enjoyed it. Keep up the good work.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks!

[@darcyw156]

Great video. I will be using a ton of this info.

[@welovettrpgs]

Awesome! More to come!

[@danprudholme1733]

Well dressed, awesome beard and very interesting topic discussion. Earned a like and subscribe! Look forward to future videos.

[@welovettrpgs]

Much appreciated!

[@wolfleclair1399]

Sorry about the late hurrah, but HURRAH! Been a bit caught up with life lately, but now I'm back to a degree at least. I shall try to catch up the best that I can, thank you for your time. Thanks for the awesome tips Aten. P.S. I may be an oddity but I never go beyond a sixth or seventh floor to my dungeons. Depending on what's going on I may add more dungeon levels and puzzles if the party is doing well. As always, it is super important to make your last planned encounter the final boss. P.P.S. Fun house dungeons can be great, I know I have run a few. Though as a player I have even implemented some ideas that "could" have changed things up for the crazy and fun which could have caused the dungeon to become a fun house dungeon. One that comes to mind was my wizard(Can't remember the name or race.)character from seven years ago trying to use a tube, mirrors and the Light spell to make an energy saber. Of course my dwarven barbarian Flint-Tooth Badaxe from another campaign around the same time had been given a glove that produces sonic booms when he clapped..... I clapped a lot because the DM put us into an underground cavern..... In the end he ended up both blind but alive, but my cousin(the DM)was quite annoyed. Hopefully you're having fun, I'll catch up to your other videos soon. lol =^_^=

[@welovettrpgs]

Yeah there's no reason to do more than necessary. I havea mega dungeon beneath the city where my PCs spend 90%5 of teir time yeve only explored the first two levels and havent gone back. lol

[@wolfleclair1399]

@@welovettrpgs Most of my dungeons are seat of my pants if I'm being honest, this last weekend my party uncovered the heartbreaking and tragic tale of Megator-my gigantic minotaur monstrosity, he was ousted from his people and only accepted by his smallest sibling. After the massive level of investigation the characters had put in there had been no combat but a tale had been told, thankfully they both enjoyed the story. That is one saving grace I have, no players seem to begrudge the stories I tell. But they were still craving some combat, so perhaps next time I shall have them encounter Skeletron and the Temple of Grudges. =^_^=

[@djeternaldarkness3769]

Great show as usual sir!

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you kindly

[@paulsavas2394]

Great video!!! Thank you.

[@welovettrpgs]

You bet! Thanks!

[@leohale6449]

Awesome content, Thank You!

[@welovettrpgs]

Glad you liked it!

[@Morta1337y]

Another great video! :D

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you!

[@bayoublue9588]

Fine job good sir!

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you very much!

[@Bryon1187]

Nice, and good reminders!

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks!

[@StarlasAiko]

I agree, it all depends on the purpose of the dungeon. I like most of my dungeons to make sense within the world's internal framework. Natural caves are awesome because there doesn't need to be any rhyme or reason to the layout and size of rooms, but there is a rational limit to what traps and treasure you'd find there. Tombs are also great since they can be deliberately overly convoluded, and there is great freedom in what treasure and traps an excentric rich weirdo would try to take with them. General mansions may have a few secret rooms and passages, but ultimately should be designed rationally, the wealth of the noble or merchant determining what sort of traps and treasure you'd find. A shack in the slums has not much room for secrets, and certainly no treasure, but might have a smuggler's hatch under the half-rotten straw bed. I don't think, imposing limitations and rules stifles creativity. To this day, I still claim that the computer/video games of the Age of Arcade are better than anything we have today, because the technical restrictions forced the developers to be creative. Nowadays, games are oversaturated in feature bloat, wasting gigabytes of space with visual razzle-dazzle at the expense of gameplay. Forget Tripple-A game studios, the only new games worth spending money on are the indy retro games. The same principle can be aplied to dungeon design as well. Sure, there is no reason to limit yourself to what other "limited" game masters limited themselves to, but you should create for yourself a list of rules and limitations and break these only when absolute neccessary.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks. I think the danger comes in extremes. One thing keeping others from becoming new DMs is the weight of pressures they must feel but that is all unnecessary. " “The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.” - Gary Gygax

[@AndyReichert0]

my first dungeon was a funhouse. it began as a wizard crypt, so it had plenty of undead as well as any random thing a wizard could study: traps, mimics, gibbering mouthers, gelatinous cubes, demons, devils, constructs, mushroom caves, secret doors, levers that open some rooms and close others. not one player said "demons AND devils? this makes no sense".

[@welovettrpgs]

Sounds great! Thanks!

[@Tysto]

I say that casting high-level spell tends to cause a loss of wisdom, which means high-level wizards tend to go insane, which can result in funhouse dungeons. And labyrinths with puzzles and traps can confuse & confound evil spirits, so ancient tombs can likewise be funhouse dungeons.

[@welovettrpgs]

My father went insane because he was a professional artist who spent his life working with oil paints. Turns out the lead in the paint does that frequently to those working with oils.

[@MattSmith83]

Oh my gosh, I saw some negative Nancy trying to rip this video apart with lackluster attempts at humor. I just wanted to watch this video without interruption! Thank you algorithmic overlords!

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you. And this is a negative-free zone so I'm glad youre here!

[@paavohirn3728]

Fantastic advice!

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks!

[@paavohirn3728]

@@welovettrpgs 🖖

[@gmanbo]

Excellent 👌

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks a lot 😊

[@Megatron4Life23]

Great video!!! New subscriber!!!

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks!

[@orangeflame568]

Have you considered instead of having collapsed sections everywhere occasionally have the passage lead on into an area that is not challenging to your players so you handle it with narration of their journey instead and end the narration with them back at another entrance of the interesting bit. Maybe ask them a few questions on how they handle a few mundane situations, and if they stop for lunch before plopping them back into the action.

[@welovettrpgs]

Which ne of my players paid you to write that?! lol (Lately they have made comments under their breath that there hasn't been a safe place to rest.) Thanks!

[@marioevildm7410]

A very good videos, extremely good advice for using reason & creativity. I use the Why, Who, How... but find my players explanations usually betters then mine, but don't say that to them... its a secret 🔐 😇

[@welovettrpgs]

I talk about that in one of my first videos here, "Steal your player's ideas" I think it's in one of my first DM tips videos.

[@roberthartley8516]

Very nice.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you!

[@GonkyWonkler]

Lots of good tips. Well structured video too. Having magic items planned is a really big one. Most DMs make of giving out a game breaking item. Throwing the power scale of you game out of wack is no fun. Maybe find a few loot options (or homebrew 'em) for the party, or the PCs, and give them out at opportune times. I like the session 0 magic item "wishlist" idea, mostly as item homebrew inspiration, because creating magic items is fun, and just giving them what they ask for _every_ time feels lame.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks! Good advice. I agree and generally use homebrewed/modified magic items. I've also changed the attunment rules in my game.

[@GonkyWonkler]

@@welovettrpgs Attunment rules as written feel a tad restrictive for my tastes as well. Quick attunment seems to be more enjoyable.

[@Aikolon]

Nice video 👍

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks 👍

[@emperorclint]

I would enjoy knowing more details about your Averoigne campaign. Fleshing out of that province's components is not seen often, except in OAR #5.

[@welovettrpgs]

For sure, I'll be doing a complete video of it after they finish. Essentially, I made it a real world province of France that was sucked into Ravenloft's Domains of Dread due to our real world witch hunts (Ive got a video here on my channel about witches). This ties in with the Ambers being "witches" so Averoigne developed cut off from the Catholic church at the height of that moral panic which only made things worse. So Clark Ashton Smith was wrtting about a real place that was torn from our real world which then only manifested in his imagination.

[@MemphiStig]

I recently bought and read the Averoigne Chronicles. I never got to play thru Castle Amber all the way, but I had it and loved it. And Smith was always on my list. It was very entertaining, not quite what I expected, and definitely pleasantly weird. I highly recommend it to anyone who loves dark Gothic or just highly imaginative writing and inspiration for your rpg's.

[@emperorclint]

@@welovettrpgs Sounds fantastic....I similarly envisioned it as being part of the past of the Ravenloft Gothic Earth setting.

[@welovettrpgs]

@@MemphiStig My campaign involves cosmic horror with an Aboleth that is immitating a God. Because Ive always wanted to run Castle Amber better than I did when I was a child I was able to integrate it in. Also, there's a part two called "Mark of Amber" that was releasd by TSR in the early 90s that is helpful as well.

[@dantherpghero2885]

I prefer ruins to dungeons. So I start with the history, then move on to the present day (in campaign). Good advise all around. I would like to see a deep dive (pun intended) on the dungeon from your campaign.

[@welovettrpgs]

I will defintely do advanced design next (ish) I just have to wait for my group to "complete" what's next. *tents gingers*

[@dantherpghero2885]

@@welovettrpgs Excellent (also tents fingers).

[@jerryfinn3056]

This video was useful

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks!

[@turtlecheese8]

I couldn't hear the video because I was wondering where you found a shirt with a turned down collar like that the entire time. (Great information by the way!)

[@welovettrpgs]

I buy all my clothing at Historical Emporium. Thanks!

[@turtlecheese8]

@@welovettrpgs Thank you! Impeccable style and videos!

[@welovettrpgs]

@@turtlecheese8 Thanks, you're very kind.

[@ashb8036]

Hmm *picks up scissors and feels like a nut… prepares strategically, with no training or knowledge, then runs headlong into the blackness of the dungeon”

[@welovettrpgs]

Good strategy! :)

[@AJarOfYams]

Ashb, no!

[@DiscoBarbarian]

as Crom intended.

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

Every time I see someone complain about how flying characters break the game, my response is to make your encounters and dungeons better. Don't just throw packs of wild animals at the party. Put saddles on the backs of those wolves and bears and put pixies or imps in those saddles. Don't just let them fly around over flat featureless planes. Throw them into an old growth forest and put colonies of giant spiders 50 feet up the trees. Use the half dozen or so "drop bear" type enemies in the monster books and put them on the ceilings of your dungeons. Line corridors with reverse gravity traps. 100 foot shafts going straight up that fliers need to dex save against if they are more than 6 feet off the ground. Have the players explore the series of smooth vertical shafts connected by honeycomb tunnels that make up a beholder lair or any other creature that always hovers and can dig out its home with magic or disintegration. Give the artificer PC or NPC ally the plans for winged glide suits so that everyone in the party can move through the air at least a little bit. Start the campaign with the party having their own airship and put all the dungeons on the insides of floating mountains or "earthbergs." There's so many fixes for whatever the internet says breaks the game if you just think outside the box that is white room theory crafting.

[@welovettrpgs]

Agreed. Flying characters aren't an issue. Each time the players seem to have found an advantage the DM needs to just dig a little harder because our toolbox is limitless. My players are using a spell out of Deep Magic by Kobold Press that is game breakingh and I won't be allowing it back as written. I never took it from the player though, I just have to be more creative. (Btw the spell is boiling oil. It seems simple enough but its a very low level spell and unless all your encounters are with fire mephits the spell just destroys entire battlefields. I kept the spell in the game but increased its spell level to 4th for future use)

[@LB_adventurer]

I'm of the opinion that encounters/dungeons/scenarios/campaigns should always be designed based on what your player base (usually your friends) would enjoy. Maybe it's hyper-realistic, totally funhouse, full of magic, or just a simple set of rooms... It can be anything and contain anything. What's important is that the GM/DM has fun creating and sending the players to it and that the players have fun being part of it. Just like some people read hard sci-fi and others like giant world turtles with whole fantasy civilizations living on their backs.

[@welovettrpgs]

Yeah thats a great perspective. If it isnt fun for the DM and players it's best not to be doing it. Like going to the doctor, "Doctor, it hurts when I do this." Doc: "Then don't do that."

[@LB_adventurer]

@@welovettrpgs back in the day Gygax & Arneson and all the boys, they came from wargaming... so for them rules and tables were everything... There were whole "governing" bodies about what you could and couldn't do in wargames, like professional sports. But when they created D&D and the world started to do TTRPG's it opened up a world of RP... To me I always read that as our beloved TTRPG's are more than just wargaming tables, they are role play first but at the same time I understand some people prefer not to focus on the RP and they are more into the gaming.. so I always build out my games for me and my players (which are mostly dramatic theatre students and our friends). So our focus is far more story telling and we just use the dice and mechanics when/how we see fit. To call it DnD would be the loosest of definitions since we incorporate whatever rules feel best for the campaign we currently are running.

[@welovettrpgs]

@@LB_adventurer I have a mixture of players who prefer different styles of play in my games so I balance .. or rather I just alow my players to dictate where the game goes. I run a vast sandbox style for that very reason. I began playing using Holmes, the second oldest edition of D&D next to the white box and I still have an original publication of Chainmail on my gaming shelf but never played it. Though I did enjoy Battlesystems in the late 80s and 90s.

[@LB_adventurer]

@@welovettrpgs my dad taught me how to play TTRPG's on old school Moldvay DnD but we mostly played using the Palladium Fantasy 2e and for Urban fantasy/sci-fi stuff we used the other Palladium books from the 1980s. So i started learning all my stuff on TTRPGS with that generation of books. In fact, I had never learned the new style until the last couple years when I got into DnD 5e and Pathfinder 2e.. although right now I'm switching over to "Basic Fantasy RPG" OSR because I like the feel of the older style RPG's more than the new. I like lower magic in the early levels and the grit of adventuring as just people with backpacks and swords so to speak.

[@takanobaierun]

Your style is weird... I like it!

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks!

[@darrenlouw4422]

Definitely appreciate the Dapper Gentleman and his dungeon crafting advice. I'm trying to design a mausoleum for an immortal giant artificer and his 500 warforged soldiers. But the crypt itself is getting away from me in terms of how many traps and puzzles would he add if he only wanted the last surviving warforged to access his tomb?

[@welovettrpgs]

Wow, you sound like you have a great idea but also a very advanced concept. I think I need my trap video to come out soon because there's a lot wrong with how traps are handled by the book in 5e. Are you using 5E?

[@Menzobarrenza]

​@@welovettrpgsI'd absolutely love to hear your perspective on traps!

[@Geraint3000]

@@welovettrpgs Aten, do you remember a fanzine type of publication in the 80s which just had ideas for traps in? Maybe it was just a UK publication. It had a similar style to a punk fanzine.

[@welovettrpgs]

@@Geraint3000 Probably not Grimtooths? I was obsessed with those in the 80s. But I'm not aware of others here in the US.

[@Geraint3000]

@@welovettrpgs that was it!

[@NomNom1970]

Ok. I have to ask. Where do I find the map you put up as the background at :27 into the video? I want to study it and see what kind of shenanigans I can get upto as a DM with that map or that style of map. Thank you. P.S. Love your channel!

[@welovettrpgs]

At some point in the not too distant future ill start making pdfs and pngs available for subscribers in the video descriptions. Ive been planning on that I'm just concerned about hacking so I'm still learning about that.

[@NomNom1970]

No worries. With maps that cool, I would be too.

[@Darkwintre]

I look at the Tomb of Horrors and think he built it to draw away interested parties from his true tomb explaining that Jungle of Chult one.

[@welovettrpgs]

Tomb of horrors has a long and complicated history IRL. I have been working on a video about it. Gary based it off a dungeon a young friend had made. I'm about to run my players through Necropolis by Gary which is meant to more closely mirror the adventure Tomb of Horrors was inspired by. Also, btw Return to Tomb of horrors for 2E AD&D has a lot of additional information for context.

[@Xplora213]

Thanks for the video, Nicolas Cage 👌

[@welovettrpgs]

My pleasure!

[@Darkwintre]

Dogma flashback with the poop elemental!

[@DiscoBarbarian]

If you require dungeons to make sense you are probably playing a much gritter game... which is cool. if you are playing 5E whether you realize it or not you are playing fiery pants on head bullet train to gonzoville and it's all it good. just depends on table tastes. Spice as required. When it comes to multiple entrances, think of modern buildings... the bigger they are the more entrances there are.... Nature is lazy... it will always take the simplest path.... no one wants to walk all the way back to the front of the dungeon when we could put an exit right here....

[@TrainingFanatic]

As a person who does more theater of the mind than grid, I find it difficult to properly describe the various tunnels, pathways, and features without overwhelming players with information. I would be interested in a video on what should be described when narrating what characters see in the dungeon and how to help players keep everything straight when you are not using a grid or map for them to look at.

[@welovettrpgs]

Sure! In the 80s we did almost everything theater of the mind (except I ran combats on grid paper with minis). I'll add a theater of the mind topic to my list of video subjects to cover!

[@mikeb.1705]

Well, you could start by having the players draw their own map of how they visualize your description. That would help you realize the gaps in your description. Also, I would think it would be acceptable for TotM to simply give detailed room descriptions but leave the passages between those rooms more vague. So instead of detailing the passages, like "the tunnel goes 20 feet then a right turn and another 20 foot tunnel" you could simplify it as "you follow the corridor a short way before coming to a door / intersection / pit / whatever". So rather than spending a lot of time on the passageways you are condensing them into just the important bits: rooms / encounters / obstacles. Kind of like you might do for over-land travel ~ Rather than describing every rock and bush, you gloss over the mundane and focus on the important parts, like the band of orcs watching from the top of the hill.

[@welovettrpgs]

@@mikeb.1705 Sounds like how we did it. I would just describe it and leave it up to them to do all the graphing.

[@shayulghul]

I love TotM. You can also review some old Endless Quest or Choose Your Own Adventure books. They did a great job of describing dungeons without needing maps.

[@welovettrpgs]

@@shayulghul I'm literally reading an 1980s Gamma World Endless Quest book atm. (I found a mint copy on ebay and I love gamma world and I adored those endless quests books as a kid.

[@Ironoclasty]

Some do scoff at funhouse dungeons. That's why I created the Temple of the Vampire Jester-Mage! It's just a bunch of trapped rooms created by a wizard tired of adventurers making stupid decisions. But it's full of places where adventurers can keep making those stupid mistakes. It has a fumble room (any miss is a fumble), a room where the floor is completely covered in treasure where the coins are all painted wooden disks floating on a 30 ft deep pool of oil (anyone carrying a torch?), and an anti-gravity maze. The best part is that the treasure made to lure fools to his trap-house is actually hidden under the front porch and obfuscated by a talking gargoyle head set in the door that taunts and insults anyone trying to get in. "You're just a bunch of idiots, you couldn't get in here even if you find the side entrance guarded by- uh, I mean, there's no way in, you fools."

[@welovettrpgs]

That sounds amazing!

[@ralphyoung6032]

I thought this was a good video, albeit not really providing much new to me. Perhaps a suggestion: discussing the relative virtues and drawbacks of differently sized dungeons. For instance, I find the considerations in the creation of a "Five Room" (more accurately "Five Encounter") dungeon are drastically different from an exploration megadungeon with overlapping Jaquay's closed-circuit corridors.

[@welovettrpgs]

That's all for a future video in advanced design, as I stipulated a few times in the video. I did not wish to upload a 40 minute video. As I said in the beginning I had intended on putting it all in one video however before we can even begin talking about advanced designs we need to correct the bad information. Thanks.

[@westonepstein]

Mustache Hero!

[@welovettrpgs]

:) Thanks! Ever see The Tick "Moustache Feeling"? Great episoide.

[@westonepstein]

@@welovettrpgs With the Russian Beard and the Charlie's Angels inspired hair stylist team? I've seen it.

[@westonepstein]

Best cartoon of the 90's!

[@KenLives333]

+1

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks!

[@mcrachiepants]

Let’s play together ❤

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks!

[@chrisragner3882]

Nudge

[@welovettrpgs]

thanks!

[@chrisragner3882]

If we cannot sleep at 3:00 AM then good, inspiring video may as well entertain! I have to work on my session for tomorrow. I am putting together a dungeon that may be an old dungeon that is now a recruiting center.

[@almitrahopkins1873]

Some of those earlier dungeons were too linear. There was too much of A to B to C and so on. I’ve always found that good design will include multiple ways in and out. If it’s an ancient tomb, some grave robber a thousand years ago will have already cut at least one entrance from outside and bypassed one or two traps by tunneling around them. You have to think of the original purpose, the current purpose and how it has been modified between those.

[@welovettrpgs]

Yes, one reason Jennell Jaquays was getting a lot of attention recently (when she died) was her contributions to making earlier dungeon designs less linear.

[@almitrahopkins1873]

@@welovettrpgs I learned it as non-linear design. I didn't even know who she was until about a month ago. And I've been playing since 1984.

[@TheCaffeinatedDM]

Whatever you say daddy I mean daddy I mean daddy I mean-

[@welovettrpgs]

A woman recently called me a "Zaddy." Still not sure what that means. :)

[@cadenceclearwater4340]

I see a nonsensical dungeon as an opportunity to find bizarre reasons 🤡

[@welovettrpgs]

excellent!

[@robertbemis9800]

I have built a mana/miasma conversion process to explain the existence of nonsensical dungeons

[@welovettrpgs]

@@robertbemis9800 thats cool! My bestie in the 80s used a homebrew mana system as well.

[@robertbemis9800]

@@welovettrpgs Well my concept is every adventurer is a mana battery Every spell and special abilities cost mana and creates miasma Miasma gathers and becomes curses and creatures

[@welovettrpgs]

@@robertbemis9800 thats cool! Have you looked at WotC Tomb of Annihilation? I don't typically recommend their stufff but that one doesnt suck and I see a similiar concept

[@TheSoling27]

sub'd

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks! If any topics interest you let me know Ill add it to my list. Best wishes!

[@magonus195]

You should rename your channel "Tabletop Fop," it's far more dandy and befitting a delicate gentleman of well-waxed taste like yourself.

[@welovettrpgs]

:)

[@angrytheclown801]

A Funhouse Dungeon is easy to explain, the creator has a sense of humor, full stop. You think an evil illusionist, a spellcraft that thrives on imagination, is going to do something boring and standard? No. They are kings and queens of being extra. A lich wants to confuse and frustrate outsiders, why wouldn't his lair be a house of insanity? Even a simple barbarian might think it's funny. The Funhouse Dungeon is only sensible. Not for every dungeon, but if it's crafted all you need is for the engineer to have said hold my beer.

[@arthurbrockway8949]

Why sooooooo many poop monsters? Kinari is running out of fine cologne..

[@welovettrpgs]

haha And your DM has some new ideas for traps Kinari will soon be learning about. :) *tents fingers*

[@Darkwintre]

Toilets, bathrooms and where and why would they be included?!

[@welovettrpgs]

In my dungeons the PCs will likely find an unused chamber where the local intelligent organized monsters leave their droppings but otherwise monsters just go in their own caves. Such a cave/area/room exists because even goblins have learned that such waste is not helpful to be near the community. Unless said creatures have in some way adopted a use for it. (as is the case with some of my goblinoid tribes who wear it as "spiritual armor" to ward off evil spirits.)

[@vihkr]

Without meaningful rules for orientation/navigation, spatial interaction, resource and risk management, light source limits (and consequences for lack of light), wandering monsters and gold for XP (reward management), any dungeon you design is going to fall flat for players. A dungeon is a spatial environment, not a narrative. Narrative from player agency and emergent gameplay is generated as a matter of course.

[@welovettrpgs]

yup

[@RaisiaFan1919]

Nudge.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you very much!

[@pepperino-hotterino]

Call me a noob, but i think dungeons are overrated. Most players i know dont like dungeoncrawls that span over several session. Most of them dont make sense from a ecosystem point of view (i know its fantasy, but even fantasy needs to have some fundamental laws) In my 2-3 year spanning campaign i have had maybe 3 dungeons if we define dungeon as something subterrainian. My players liked it, but exploring room after room, level after level can get boring very quickly no matter how good of a DM you are. Gaming-Tables who can run the complete Dungeon of the Mad Mage are imo a very small fraction of the playersbase. I think the dungeoncrawling aspect has taken the backseat for overarching campaigns with encounters above ground and storytelling. Over are the times where the goal was to explore a Dungeon to get Gold and turn it into XP. In order to then go to the next dungeon and repeat. Without any reason for doing it.

[@welovettrpgs]

All of the issues you have pointed out are valid but those are faults of the DMs inability rather than the setting / dungeon. If dungeons were as bad as you suggest the game wouldnt have lasted 50 years and wouldnt have the word dungeon in it. I recommend looking up my video called "stop blaming the players" - it's about the responsibilities of a DM. Also, as I pointed out in the video, your entire campaign world is eally one giant dungeon. I asure you, with better descriptions and more skill at DMing even the most boring dungeon can (and should) capitivate the players.

[@pepperino-hotterino]

@@welovettrpgs you are right. It comes down to your definition of dungeon. If you define it as a subterrainian system of rooms with encounters, as they are shown in many early moduls. They will eventually become boring for the majority of players. Yes you can make even those early dungeons more interesting, but you will no longer be true to what they were meant or what they stood for. If you however stretch the term dungeon to mean any map or szene, you suddenly have unlimted options. It is to no surprise that 5e is doing so well since they switched a bit away from the pure dungeoncrawl aspect. If you look at the 5e adventures very few of them actually happen in "classical" subterrainian dungeons. Critical Role rarely uses "classical" dungeon and for a reason. It is just boring to say "i go into the next room", deal with whatever i encounter and go to the next room. Yes you are totally right that it depends on the DM to make the dungeon interesting. However when you can bring more happines to your players with the same amount of prep by not confyning yourself to a classical dungeon then you would be stupid to limit yourself. Dont get me wrong i love dungeons and i have created several imo very interesting and creativ dungeons with factions (mindflayer, duergar, drow, mykonids..) with puzzles, with riddles, with intrigue, with betrayal, with character backstory weaved into it, with epic BBEGs (Demogorgon), ... But the classical dungeons make up not more than 20% of my sessions in a campaign. Since i define dungeon in a more narrow term. And i belive many others do too

[@Menzobarrenza]

​@pepperino-hotterino Absolutely agree with this. Last session was a dungeon crawl, and next session my players will be leading a small army to besiege a tribe of Baphomet-worshipping orcs (with the assistance of a tribe of Gruumsh-worshipping orcs, a tribe of animistic ancestor-venerating humans, and the navy of a polytheistic theocratic nation).

[@user-ym1wj6oo5w]

I found this useful. And I have been playing TTRPGs since 1978. I am old.

[@welovettrpgs]

Well you beat me by a couple years, so I guess that makes us both old. But, I won't tell anyone if you dont!