The SECRETS of Deception Explained | Pitching Breakdown

[@jackkirchner2082]

Awesome vid! I never really knew about driveline's occlusion stat. Super interesting to follow as they continue to get more data. I think the biggest thing you touched on with deception is that whole "arm angle" branch. When the ball does something like you said, "unexpected," that is when hitters are fooled. I think a great example of this is Paul Sewald. If I am not mistaken he gets only around 14-16 inches of IVB but throws from a lot slot where you expect more IHB then IVB. Maybe that is more related to release height then arm angle, but I think is the same idea. We have so muh data along with new tools and metrics to predict player outcomes where it be pitching and hitting. Especially when it comes to pitch shaping, deception is created when the expected and the actual outcomes have the greatest differences.

[@LanceBroz]

Sewald is a great example. He is a classic low slot ride guy like a Joe Ryan or Bryan Woo. All creating a shape hitters aren’t used to from their arm angle.

[@heheheha1091]

I know Trevor may(ex twins and A’s reliever) said the way hitters pick up pitches is the see the side of the ball your hand is on at and after release. (TLDR curveballs your hand is on the side and changups your hand is much wider and you fingers are more spread out. Which can make slightly noticeable differences)

[@heheheha1091]

m.kzbin.infofNtv6W8V4mk Found where he said it

[@LanceBroz]

Great point, thanks for bringing it up. It raises a couple thoughts in my head (in no way refuting May, but purely trying to think it through)... 1) I'm somewhat skeptical that *every* hitter does this every pitch? sounds a bit like purely tipping 2) Even if 1 is true, can hitters ID it within a given pitch such that they can react to it? 3) If I'm wrong with 1+2, then I guess it's an argument that it's all about pitch movement rather than anything happening in the release At the end of the day, it's probably a mix of everything that changes balance based on a given pitcher (lol)

[@MOCBaseball7524]

@@LanceBroz Even then, if players are doing this on every pitch, that's where Max Bay's tweets come into play. I follow him and have seen him posting them often. If a hitter may know what pitch is coming, they still don't know location, plus if the pitch is moving more than "expected" or is a really good pitch, they still have to make contact. Knowing the pitch does not equal success of course. Love this point though and would love if you made a follow up video about what you've learned from community engagement and speaking with those in the industry about this subject! Fantastic work as always Lance!

[@Juvaunie]

Different sport I know, but in cricket we are taught to look at the ball to the release point of the hand. The good batters can pick up trajectory and speed differences quickly.

[@LanceBroz]

Interesting! Thanks for sharing. Do you think this is because (from my understanding) the arm doesn’t bend in cricket? So the release points are perhaps more gathered making the path more consistent than in baseball where there’s layback of the arm prior to ball release? 🤔

[@Juvaunie]

@@LanceBroz there is a general area you can focus on to pick up the release point of the ball because the arm is straight. So yes picking up the trajectory would be more consistent.

[@NathanielHumphreys]

Excellent video as always Lance. As a pitcher, I was always taught body deception more than individual pitch deception; ie, hiding the ball as long as possible and weird release angles. I think getting late movement is an under appreciated skill though. I remember Greg Maddux talking about that in an interview with PitchingNinja.

[@yadthink]

Loved your thoughts on deception. Something reminded me of Kent Tekulve from decades ago. I'm not smart enough to know why he was successful, but his release point (and arm angle) had to have been part of it.

[@MoshiCola]

The goal is to give the batter as little info as humanly possible about where the pitch is going. Having occlusion is great for keeping the batter from noticing small adjustments you’ve made. Changing timing and arm slots is the step after. And stride is the third. Since these all happen before the pitcher actually releases the ball they are all tells for where the ball is probably gonna end up. Everyone who has played baseball for a while can usually tell at release if a ball is gonna be fairly accurate from the outfield. And it’s because of all the subtle queues picked up on during the motion of the throw. Steve Peters (former MLB pitcher) put it to me this way one day. “Every small adjustment you make affects the location of the ball.” I took this a step further to mean that if I’m a batter and I can notice any changes or consistencies then I have a way better chance at being ready for what’s coming

[@danielcarmichael4596]

Can. you explain how Hip ER from walker is needed at 4:43? it seems to me that he is planting his glove foot and then rotating his torso about his femur into hip IR. Thus it seems to me like you misspoke and that pitchers need a lot of Hip IR mobility (and good Hip ER muscular eccentric control)

[@LanceBroz]

This was relayed along to me by an individual in an org. I checked with a few others after your comment and the consensus that you need high hip mobility and that it doesn’t need to be IR or ER specific. The best comment I got was something along the lines of, “I wouldn’t know without screening the athlete/pelvic anatomy can vary widely so it depends on the individual. Unsure if that helps, but I probably would’ve reworded what I said to be more general in terms of saying ER specific. I’m not the biggest mechanics guy, so definitely still learning

[@danielcarmichael4596]

@@LanceBroz I’m in PT school so I’m studying the names of movement and this is a tricky one! But a pitcher would be rotating his acetabulum on his fixed femoral head. Closed chain concave on convex. Thus same side roll and glide arthrokinematics. Osteokinematically, it’s Internal rotation 👍🏽 Either way you slice it, a pitcher needs good hip mobility and strength

[@robertcollins2285]

Interesting and detailed. It’s just so hard to tell with some of these details what is “ true, true and unrelated. “

[@LanceBroz]

That’s why I enjoy thinking about these things! There is no one answer

[@tyhyde]

Great as always Lance - on the occlusion side I remember reading on Twitter that Joe Ryan was measured by Driveline as a 99th percentile hider. He’s also a guy well known for his command and low walk rate, like Greinke. Do you think hiding the ball amplifies/can be confused with command? It is also worth noting that Ryan’s release point is A) very very low, and B) very consistent - there was a fangraphs article measuring release point reliability and he was towards the top, though I’m not sure that’s strictly “command” either.

[@LanceBroz]

Good note on Ryan! I didn't know that about him. Probably helps to have that and the ability to ride the ball from his slot. I don't think hiding the ball has any relation to command, but I could be swayed perhaps. Most poor command guys skew towards being hard throwers and most of those guys probably need a lower level of "deception" for things to work if that makes sense.

[@squallrulz20]

What about the Nestor Cortez method? Inconsistency in the timing to try mess with a batters ability to remember body rythym? What about knuckleball style? If the pitcher and catcher don't know the hitter doesnt know either. When I think of deception i think of the ability to increase tunnelling of a pitch while reducing visual indicators of that pitch. E.g can the hitter pick up on the finger placement for a splitter vs a 4 seam fastball? Can we alter the mechanics in a way to hide that. What pitch is most effective for your arm slot? A slider is likely better for a side arm pitcher then a 3/4ths pitcher. What is the most common pitch type in the league? If a batter sees something a lot they are more likely to hit it. The trippiest pitch in all of baseball atm is probably a knuckle ball folloed by a rising fastball, because there is what, 1 submariner in the league? Who the hell is used to the ball moving up? Throwing a curveball from the ground at their face for it to curve back into the zone sounds toxic.

[@LanceBroz]

Ok, lots of questions here, my comments… A) on Cortes, it’s hard enough for most to repeat one set of mechanics. I think pitchers who are generally mediocre need more because their command or stuff alone isn’t enough B) the inherent volatility of a knuckleball makes it difficult to suggest, teach and then throw. I would love to see more, but I’m afraid it’s too galaxy brain for coaches and orgs to push C) the inherent issue with increasing tunneling is that you’re saying for the most part you want the pitches either 1) moving less or 2) located closer together in the zone. Both of which take away from trying to create diversity or location and stuff models prizing good stuff I really think the phrase tunneling is overused. It’s really just command on an aggregate basis. But in individual batter v pitcher matchups it does exist. I just don’t think people are talking about it that way

[@squallrulz20]

​@@LanceBroz A) Well yea, but realistically, if you want to make it out of AA without having any notable metrics you have to figure something else out, and at that point it is almost a full time career so you have time. Anything that can mess up batters timing, reduce their ability to track and predict your pitches is going to be deception more then anything else. B) The thing is, if the knuckleball sees a resurgence and ever becomes prevalent, the pitch itself will die because counter measures and stats will be used to make it useless. If like 30-40% of the league threw it, you would just end up in a position where there would be enough data that you could reliably predict its trajectory changes based on seam position assuming your eyesight is good enough, which at an MLB level I would hope its close. The knuckleball itself is ultimately explained to a degree through seam shifted wake, and this comes into play with the tunneling I am talking about it to. C) I am a sports science student, in all the instances I have seen tunneling used it means that the pitches run down the same path or 'tunnel' initially and then break away at a certain point. So your fast ball and your splitter may be in the exact same spot for 2/3rds of the travel time before separating apart from each other. The purpose of this is both of these pitches look the exact same to the batter and they have to 'guess' or follow the seams with their eyes to hit correctly, which is more cognitive load reducing their chance of hitting perfectly. This is part of seam shifted wake, where you can control how late or early your pitches start to break which is using the seams more then the hand itself to create baseball movement which allows you to throw multiple pitches with less grip variation. Over time, pitchers will slide far more into movement based on pitch axis as its easier to hide and reduce indicators for batters then what is traditionally used. Deception gets a lot of focus from pitchers right now, but it is more heavily focused on pitch mix, batter weaknesses, swing tendencies and catcher placement. The level some catchers are at and their ability to get reliable strike calls out of the zone through positioning can be more impactful then anything a pitcher does, and could in many ways be considered part of 'pitcher deception'.

[@brandtthompson6463]

I think another piece to being deceptive is release height consistency across an arsenal i.e. having multiple breaking pitches going in different directions without dropping or raising slot to get those movements

[@LanceBroz]

Yep, release height differentials is interesting. I think a lot of sharper folks say it doesn't really matter, but you see guys like Caden Dana come up with big release differentials and it makes me think otherwise. Perhaps one of those things that matters in the specific but is selection-biased out of most MLB pitchers

[@brandtthompson6463]

@@LanceBrozsure some people will say it doesn’t matter, most people will also say you can get outs without being deceptive… but I think subconsciously hitters can definitely pick up on varying release heights which is the opposite of deception

[@mike-0451]

I wonder why Max Bay is no longer with the Astros. Could it be that the guys like Reggie Jackson and Jeff Bagwell forced him out because “computers don’t play baseball,” like Bagwell said?

[@Tacorover]

Can you make a video or short about Mackenzie gore and how he has gotten back on track recently?

[@LanceBroz]

I made one about why he struggled during the middle of the year 😂 - kzbin.infoPD97PKH0lnc?feature=share I want more slider and less curveball personally

[@Tacorover]

@@LanceBroz yeah I saw that it was really good, I’m not an expert so I don’t really know what changed but he’s had 3 straight great starts

[@Roadkillah]

hopefully he can get his cyyoung

[@LanceBroz]

He's the huge favorite right now, I think he's got it locked up

[@Joe_Konen]

I think deception is just not moving like the average pitcher from a body side. Ball side its Tunneling

[@LanceBroz]

I think the phrase tunneling is widely overused because to tunnel you’re talking about a) pitches that move more like one another or b) are located closer together in the zone. Both of those compete against location and shape diversity (the latter connecting to stuff, which likes hard, big shapes). On an individual game or batter basis, I believe tunneling is very important. But on the aggregate level, I think for the most part it’s a bit overrated. I really think we’re just talking about command

[@Allythechange]

Would you do a trevor bauer breakdown?

[@NathanielHumphreys]

Excellent video as always Lance. As a pitcher, I was always taught body deception more than individual pitch deception; ie, hiding the ball as long as possible and weird release angles. I think getting late movement is an under appreciated skill though. I remember Greg Maddux talking about that in an interview with PitchingNinja.