The SOCOM M4 Block II barrel: Magic? ...or tragic? (Facts and rumors - M4 SOCOM barrel)

[@Foxholefirearms]

Henry and 9hole, I was a socom maintainer for 10 years on green and civi side, the socom profile held better durability during throat erosion gaging, they would just last longer wear and tear wise, and you even saw them on mk18s from time to time from cut back barrels. Overall I don't believe the intention was to increase accuracy but just add another layer of durability. And the maintenance schedule was every 6 months for gaging procedures and pre-embarkation checks and gaging. Hope this helps!

[@9HoleReviews]

I think this video may have been a little tongue in cheek in a sense that we're really addressing the rumors of 1, the barrels are sub-MOA and 2, the group size doesn't shift or open up under fire. I tried to address that the superior maintenance and logistics are some of the reasons for these weapons to do well in the field, but many on the internet love to attribute lethality to nothing more than a barrel.

[@investigativeoutcomes9343]

@1:47, dude in khakis caught printing, is that a baby glock in your pocket.

[@investigativeoutcomes9343]

@@ConiferD lol 🤣😂🤣

[@investigativeoutcomes9343]

@@ConiferD i always get a chubby when the block 2's get busted out. 🤣

[@Mithradates_of_Los_Angeles]

👏🏻Very interesting and it makes a lot of sense. It makes complete sense it was for durability. this whole magic accuracy nonsense is from the internet moron and moron vets being online

[@caseyf2453]

I was an armorer in regiment for a few years. I remember looking at press releases because I was also confused on the decision to go to a heavy barrel in what was supposed to be a lightweight carbine and the press releases I found all used the justification that it was able to lay down more rounds before the barrel warped as quoted by some higher ranking officer at aberdeen or crane. I guess they didn't think it through very well since they went back to govt profile in the urgi's. Another thing to note is all our original block II's came prebuilt from crane with colt government profile barrels and we would replace them with socom profile barrels when they failed barrel erosion. Before I left, they actually gave us new barrel erosion gauges that had a different no-go line specifically for m855a1 that was way further back than the original m855 one which I found hilarious. Not sure if it had to do with maybe a decreased barrel life for the urgi barrels or because they got tired of replacing barrels due to m855a1.

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

Barrel erosion gauges.. so worthless

[@StarryNightMachinima]

I wouldn't say it's worthless

[@hansgruber9685]

Where did those trillions of dollars go? Apparently new gauges instead of new equipment. Lol

[@chrischiampo7647]

If Your Rounds are Keyholed Then You Probably Have Barrel Erosion No Gauge Needed 😩😩😩

[@acorgiwithacrown467]

@@hansgruber9685 Proper maintenance and testing equipment is well worth the money if it means those hundreds of millions worth of guns you bought last longer and stay effective.

[@9HoleReviews]

CONSIDER that we are mainly focusing on two myths: 1, the M4 Block II SOCOM profile barrel is sub-MOA 2, the barrel retains zero and group size under heat stress Could there be further conversation on the DD vs Colt? yes, but that really isn't the main things that we are looking at here. we'd like to thank Jeff G at @moderntacticalshooting, and Ian at @forgottenweapons. Thanks to their input for confirming and expanding on some of the points made in this video! Also I realized after publish that we didn't state the distance: 100m / 77gr IMI Razor Core SMK short range blasting was with cheap Tulammo 55gr ball While some may say that IMI razor core isn't great, we've seen is really perform similarly to actual BHA Mk262 in the past: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pILEf4VomZyDmJY and kzbin.info/www/bejne/p2TZdIOleLN1oLc

[@MrMalicious5]

Razor Core kinda sucks. I could never get it to shoot much better than around 1MOA, even in my Lilja barreled AR or Proof prefit in my custom bolt gun.

[@hermatred572]

Thanks!

[@9HoleReviews]

​@@MrMalicious5 we've also tested it against real BHA Mk262 and they are similar in performance... in fact the IMI outperformed the real Mk262

[@AtlasJotun]

Your glorious green AI makes me green with envy. The very epitome of what 'two guys in a shed' are capable of.

[@belligerentinstigator944]

I used to own an m6a1 LWRC with that thick socom barrel. It was sub moa. I sold it. None of the other carbines I bought after that have come close.

[@brandonalmeida5493]

I am rolling my eyes during whole video. Not at you guys but the stupid myth behind it. M4 looks great with that scope, reminds me I need a magnifier for my mp5

[@markoneil6562]

Yeah that scope would look dope on an MP5

[@jaypee389]

@@markoneil6562 Droppin rain at 800 meters with 9mm. Lol. Fun

[@chlebowg]

We used to get cook offs during ambush drills with our M4A1s at around 200 rds, in late 90s in 5th SFGA. The SOCOM barrel was adopted as a heat sink to prolong when a cook off would occur. Remember the SOCOM barrel is a product of the Block 1 around 2000. I always preferred the balance of the Govt profile as I carried the gun way more then shooting it.

[@neiljasonvillanueva1864]

Maybe this is the same reason why our Phillipine Military bought 60K Remington M4s SOCOM barrel profile.

[@nmr6316]

It would be interesting to see the Block II vs the WWSD. See what difference between the barrel profiles effects accuracy and at range after heated up.

[@9HoleReviews]

I've seen the WWSD really widen but we should test to see if it shifts

[@nmr6316]

@@9HoleReviews that would be interesting. Also, I have one of the pencil 5r rifled barrels from faxon on my WWSD. I haven't tried to heat it up or checked for shift or deviation. Might have to try it on mine.

[@christopherrobin8134]

@@9HoleReviews Please do! I think that would be a great validation method for the WWSD project, seeing as the weight of the block II is probably what started the whole thing.

[@509Gman]

@@9HoleReviews my experience has been the same. Maaaaaybe ~1ish MOA shift if anything, but I was shooting with less than optimal optics and from a sling iirc.

[@jamesburge1983]

I would love to see this comparison. Not just as a standard comparison but also using the 'minute of a man' standard.

[@philliplopez1501]

Hi Henry, I was an armorer for SOF while we utilized the SOCOM heavy barrels. Quick point... 60 rounds of quick fire is not enough. You need to go back and try again at 210, 420, 630, 840, etc. To really establish the heat sink effect. The realistic training and combat mag dumps far exceeded to two mags you utilized to simply warm the rifles up. Hope that helps. Looking forward to the revised test. Phil

[@9HoleReviews]

As we said in the video, the main objective is to see if there is any merit to the internet rumors of 1, the barrel is sub MOA and 2, the barrel prevents the grouping from heat shift and excess dispersion. Based on the experiment, the heavy barrel fulfilled neither of those rumors. Side note, I do understand what you are talking about as I was an army ordnance officer and did a fair amount of digging trough for crane/APG studies or ALARACTs for any substantive evidence of such and there were none that I could find. I also consulted with my socom colleagues before publishing. Since the URGI was adapted after I left, I can only speculate that the observation was also made that the extra 5oz of weight was not beneficial enough or at all.

[@RyuTheAsian47]

At least from what I've seen just casually researching this topic, it seemed to me the intent of the socom profile was durability because M855A1 was just tearing through so many barrels. The accuracy bonus it got was seemingly just a weird side effect that people really appreciated, not something that was the main focus of the upgrade. Also, in my opinion, I would like to see this test repeated again, except with either a 120 or 240 round mag dump because that should give you guys a much wider data set to work with, which should either prove or disprove these current results. Obviously, that'd be a huge investment to put in, but I still hope you guys will consider doing it.

[@tillerzeit]

Nice to see Josh get some more trigger time and a good run down of how the experiment is set up. Provides the means for others to repeat the process allowing for the scientific method to be maximized to its full potential

[@ASqdrnDA]

This echoes Chris Bartocci's thoughts from the SmallArmsSolutions channel on barrel choices. Heavier barrel is just more durable and has a longer lifespan, accuracy differences between button cut and a cold hammer forged is only little.

[@Seth9809]

Thats what the video seemed to show. The group started good and didn't get much worse.

[@neiljasonvillanueva1864]

And learned from Him Destruction Test comparison: 440 mean (14mags) rounds vs. 900 mean rounds (30mags).

[@joet.s.6283]

How predictable, internet lore continues to be... internet lore only.

[@DinoNucci]

Ur mom is predictable

[@Talynen]

Having not watched the video yet, I'm going to hypothesize that the barrel was considered better mostly because they were new barrels when soldiers were coming from well-used M4s.

[@basedgodstrugglin]

I saw it on the internet so it must be true, you can’t lie on the internet 😌

[@joet.s.6283]

@@DinoNucci Indeed. She keeps a very consistent schedule.

[@scubasteve743]

My psa upper on Anderson lower is just as good

[@rabbitholereviews]

I've got a bunch of 14.5PW Socom barreled AR's. I went with the Socom barrel because it handles those initial mag dumps a little better. For me, accuracy is similar to a standard profile barrel. Excellent video!

[@jamesw9930]

The advantage of a bull barrel (and lets be clear thats what the Blcok II barrel actually is) is that it takes longer to heat up and so maintains accuracy for longer before it heats up because there is more mass to heat up. Once it is actually HOT though, all bets are off, steel has an expansion coefficient of ~0.05%/100C and once its temp goes up its going to deflect just like a regular profile barrel.

[@ricks.1092]

You sir are correct, you can't defeat or find a short cut to physics. I'm a scientist (M.D., Ph.D.)

[@seijiroukikuoka5975]

Cold hammer forged barrels rendered all of this illogical.

[@ravenwing199]

​@@seijiroukikuoka5975 Oh I need to hear how the hammer infuses it with mystical heat resistant properties. So how does this work?

[@ravenwing199]

@@Mr.K.14823 Stronger but not more heat resistant. The more mass the better a heat sink.

[@DJ-fd4qk]

@@Mr.K.14823pretty sure CHF isn’t what affect the metals crystalline grain structure, but cryogenic treatment. KAC and LMT are known to Cryo treat their barrels, and as someone who works with Knives cryogenically treated steels are done so because of the fact it increass the metal’s “martensite” structure (crystalline), hardening the steel and increasing edge retention as well as edge sharpness. CHF has historically been a more affordable way of manufacturing barrels, button cut barrels are popular because hammer forge machines are far and few nowadays.

[@KhanSeb]

I like how you are a great source of informations, yet you don't take yourself too seriously and you seem to have a lot of fun doing those. Hands down my favorite firearms related youtube channel, just alongside Forgotten Weapons. Please keep up the good work !

[@Samos900]

I know some people like it because it’s showing the process, but I LOVE that you skipped the rounds on target. “10 rounds, *loads and fires one* *skips forward in time* “rounds complete” like thank you for making this more watchable

[@lmassey1984]

I just want to say your channel is extremely valuable. The amount of thoughtful information packed into each review is truly amazing. Keep up the good work.

[@TheTeamauld]

Wow, this video could not have been better timed. I've had my eye on the DD FSP Block 2 upper, but hadn't decided to get it because... drum roll... it didn't have the SOCOM barrel. Well, looks like it is time to break open the piggy bank. LOL Great video, you are rapidly becoming my favorite source for service rifle info. Keep it up guys!

[@jik294]

So, I'm having to take a dive in my memory of over 10yrs ago, lol. The Block 2's, when they Came out, came out in both the SOCOM and Standard M4 Profile. The SOCOM profile was never supposed to give it better accuracy. I've only recently heard that one(literally, within the last month). It was supposed to give it better barrel longevity from sustained fire(not in a single sitting, but overall service life). Now, the reason the Gas tube was not swapped out, was, No one actually really considered it until the more recent M4 Improvement program of a couple years back. Even then, it was still looked at as a "Meh" thing as they were switching from M4 Carbines(3rnd Burst) to M4A1(Full-Auto) for improved Semi-Auto Accuracy(curtesy of the USMC's decision to do the same a few years prior). The gas tube typically blows in excess of 800rnds of continuous full-auto fire. The reason it was finally improved on was to increase the overall service life. Same with the SOCOM profile on the Block 2. The Standard M4 profile barrel was getting replaced, on average, around 20k rounds, give or take +5k/-15krnds. IIRC, Eventually the standard M4 profile chosen over the heavier profile due to several reasons. Logistics is always one, the other I was told, was for POI shift after sustained fire. The SOCOM profile held in too much heat and caused POI issues. Like you witnessed in during this testing. Now, you also have to remember that at the time these were being fielded, U.S. Army Special Operations were also fielding the 77gr Black Hills OTM round. Not every unit got it, but about half did. This round was also EXTRA spicy. IIRC, SOCOM eventually dropped it from use due to it's overwhelming ability to reduce average barrel life from 20k rounds down to as low as 5k rounds. NOTE: What do I mean by Overall Service life in context of the Gas Tube and the Barrel. Sustained fire, above combat loads, but, below the 800rnd "Oh S***" cutoff will have a tendency to fatigue the metal and cause pre-mature failure or replacement below the accepted service life round count. I.E. warping or general fatiguing of the metal. Anecdote #1: I've NEVER seen a rifle go in for servicing and maintenance every 5yrs. I once got a rifle that hadn't been used since 1995. Anecdote #2: When my first unit got brand new M4 Carbines, we were told the Acceptable MOA was 3.5 for them. As an Interesting note to this anecdote, on overall unit average, we were seeing 1.25-1.5MOA with x4 ACOG's.

[@YdoIneedahandle869]

This is by FAR my favorite youtube channels. It is unquestionable.

[@alu.304]

Got that upper built with one of JN's original short run Noveske N4 14.5" CHF barrel circa 2006. Still running and printing well into 12K rounds.

[@Gunker02]

What i gather from this is: the quality of the barrel manufacturer is more important then the barrel profile.

[@TimberwolfCY]

"This is peak performance! PEAK PERFORMANCE!.... ... ...RECON!!!" Henry here is just, perfect.

[@Guero_c7]

this is the second one of your videos the first about lvpo’s that i just fall in love with the educated/informed way you speak. subscribed bc you’re a information Godsend.

[@M.H.D.actual]

If I remember correctly, most, if not all of our M4s got the socom profile barrel when they were upgraded from M4 carbines to M4A1s along with the full auto triggers instead of burst, and the Ambi selector added as well. Granted, we were still using the old non-freefloated kac quad rail and using green tip ammo and later 855A1 so there wasn't a noticeable difference in accuracy. And our maintenance schedules for replacing anything was laughable in the line companies so there's also that. I'd be interested to see a follow-up to this test with an M4A1 setup shooting both 62 grain and the 77 grain rounds and the same firing schedule to see it if there was a huge difference between free-floated block 2 rails and the older non-free floated KAC rails

[@tsoliot5913]

I have a 14.5 Remington contract submission (they failed the bid and offloaded the stock) socom profile barrel, and it is indeed surprisingly accurate. Definitely 1 MOA. I don't know about sub, because I'm not that good and I haven't lead-sledded it.

[@Questavest]

So many guys were butthurt over those barrels. Know it alls on arf saying the barrels were not worth the $100 and learning after cdnn sold out that they were top shelf tubes. 11:15

[@rippersix293]

During development at NSWC Crane, durability was the main motivation for the SOCOM profile. The accuracy aspect was already there, between the intense QC implementation during production of the platform and the end user’s (NSWC Operators, U.S. Army SF, ect.) abilities and skills using it.

[@Herbymac0811]

These videos really are awesome! I've learned more in 20 minutes for a future build than I've picked up in the last 2 months for the same rifle. I mean seeing is believing! Henry.... You guys do great work please keep on keeping on!

[@jcarne1015]

When I got involved with some R&D back in ‘08-‘10, I found that Colt was shipping new M4A1s with the SOCOM barrels, with crush washers behind the flash hider, rather than peel washers. Having noticed some accuracy degradation with crush washers in the past, I tested a new 14.5” SOCOM barrel with no muzzle device, firing Fed GMM 69 gr ammo. Then I installed an A2 flash hider with a crush washer, and tightened it to proper timing. Accuracy dropped from 1.5” five round groups, to 3” five round groups. All at 100 yards.

[@jcarne1015]

I should add that the GMM I was using was not factory fresh. It was a lot of PD trade-in that was at least 5 years old, and didn’t shoot nearly as well as fresh handloads from my precision AR. It was still significantly better than any of the milsurp I had.

[@alanmeyers3957]

Muzzle distortion.

[@dereklinscott8488]

Hard to overstate how nice it is to have no adverts on these. This channel is solid no-BS content.

[@lawless911sc]

"You're probably a nerd like me so -" ONE OF US. ONE OF US. Appreciate the hell out of this one guys. Thanks a ton.

[@ethanwiley7605]

I love this style of content, I know the practical accuracy series is the staple and I love it too but I like these kind of casual testing style videos of various things like your older optic reviews and weapon light review

[@craigsteinkamp12]

Might be worth comparing a 5.56 chambering and a 223 Wylde chambering with the same barrel profile. See if there is credibility to the claimed accuracy of the wylde. Awesome test and content Henry and Josh, thanks for the interesting video.

[@MF-Rell]

Good idea.

[@rudolphferdinand3634]

Yes, I like to see it as well. I have a barreled upper receiver in 5.56mm laying a drawer thinking of replacing the barrel with 223 Wylde, it may not be worth it.

[@CertifiedSunset]

That would be cool to see. Though for practical applications I don't see it making a huge difference since the 5.56 through a 5.56 (quality made) barrel is combat accurate for an infantryman style setup. Now for an SPR I could see a valid argument for a more accurate barrel, since the weapon system would be utilizing a substantially magnified optic/scope and traditionally a longer 18"-20" barrel.

[@thepracticalrifleman]

No two barrels are the same. It wouldn’t be easy to test unless you took an average over multiple barrels and with multiple types of ammunition.

[@craigsteinkamp12]

@@thepracticalrifleman I get the “no two are alike” point but I feel like a lot the tests online are using one of one. Technically the Mk12 was like that because they didn’t have a large sample size. I agree though whenever I see tests like that I give them a little leeway on the product, could be a lemon could be a pattern.

[@frobbit30]

You guys do outstanding work, you make it fun to watch, you have fun yourselves, and I thank you!

[@brazzy1467]

I just finished putting one of these together but I used a 16" CHF chrome lined Noveske barrel and a 12″ Centurion C4 Rail, Mid Length Cutout Rail Handguard. So far I'm very impressed with this setup.

[@ignitionSoldier]

This is the best firearms channel on KZbin. Thanks for an awesome video! I would love to see more internet rifle myths examined going forward. You guys are great at this.

[@holdernewtshesrearin5471]

I've done similar tests with my modded FN 16" M4 government profile 5.56 mm. I've installed a PRI G2 gas block/folding front sight and some other minor mods that shouldn't affect accuracy. Using a PA 1-8x ACSS SFP scope it consistently groups Sub MOA with a few sub 1/2 MOA groups on occasion with its preferred load the Sig Sauer 77 gr OTMs at 100 meters. Maybe 1.25 to 1.75 MOA with Norma tac 55 gr FMJs, my normal practice round. After firing 30 rds as fast as possible groups didn't change. After 60 rds rapid i noticed minimal shifting of maybe 1" and groups opened up to 1.25 to 1.75 MOA. Pretty much exactly what you observed. Great vid as always.

[@jackbauer4186]

People claim "sub MOA" out of M4 platforms all the time, but, in reality, duty grade system that can get you 1.3-1.5 MOA out of the box is an extremely accurate rifle. Even when frying pan hot, they both still produce Sub 2MOA 9 shot groups....which is still unreal for chromed combat grade barrels. I think what this test really shows is just how damn good DD barrels are, because I think many of the competitors would not have fared as well outside of maybe Centurion or other specialty FN-made products.

[@thomasrussell7135]

nice to see, I just picked up a BCM 14.5 p&w FSB m4ish upper receiver group with a gov profile hammer forged barrel, going to be my go to for now

[@rupert916]

Good timing. I literally reconfigured the colt socom barrel from a c4 cent rail back to its original block2 fsp form I got from thoroughbred armament.

[@slateslavens]

10:30 seems to be a Paul Harrell moment - "There is a difference. But is it enough to make a difference? You be the judge"

[@sampsonlll1825]

I'm highly interested in seeing a DD socom barrel tested & evaluated.

[@KaizenLife]

Me too. A free-floated non FSP DD socom barrel might have a small difference.

[@turnitdowntyler]

Seeing as how I have one.. I’m also very interested.

[@MTMILITIAMAN7.62]

Another great video, but honestly, Josh snarling behind the rifle doing his mag dumps with his war face is the best part.

[@leeaaron6182]

Continues to be one of my favorite channels on KZbin

[@billbee235]

Great video.. I have a few buddies that don’t really understand the difference between military requirement for rifles vs civilians. I have an AR with a Proof barrel that shoots bug holes with my reloads… that isn’t scalable to a military setting.

[@ajttambo]

Great content as always. Would like to see more GWOT era weapon lore put to the rest.

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

Same. Still to this day I have to tell people that the 92 FS beat the P226 on cost of maintenance, both passed the endurance test with flying colours, both were equally good but one way cheaper in the end, and the slides broke due to Winchester loading 9x19mm NATO brass with a 9mm Luger powder charge. Those same over-pressured rounds also broke the Sigs. I mean, i won't defend Beretta's use of the inferior safety compared to Sig's superior decocker, but they're certain very durable guns, they were just fed a steady diet of over-pressured loads, and no gun can survive that for long.

[@DecentRecruit]

I love the SOCOM profile barrel. The weight really helps dampen the recoil for those rapid fire shots. I would say its a perfect hog hunting setup down in Texas.

[@stump3514]

I have a 16 inch socom barrel in my home built AR. It regularly shoots 1.1 to 1.5 moa with generic ammo, I haven’t actually taken the time to shoot match ammo through the thing. I am happy with the barrels capability.

[@ricks.1092]

For Xmas, one of my daughters bought me a 14.7", mid-length Ballistic Advantage Barrel...Pencil Profile. Gas block was pinned and set screwed, as well with a melonite gas tube. I then finished off a build I was working on. I got .85 moa, with Federal Match King ammo. Once the barrel warmed, I got 1.70 moa. Though barrel thickness, does affect barrel harmonics. The magic in accuracy, comes from the blank used, drilling, reaming, rifling...then hand and air gauged, etc. A lot of shooters believe that barrel length equates to accuracy....wrong. Barrels are a thousands of an inch smaller than the caliber bullet. Length of barrel pertains to velocity. If a barrel is too long, then it can slow a bullet up and weaken velocity. The daughter who purchase the aforementioned barrel system. Well she's position to run the family business (FFL 3 & 7/SOT). Which has been around for almost 100 years.

[@justsomeguy922r3]

As always, great content. If you could get an fn-49 in for practical accuracy and general discussion, that would be awesome.

[@0juice683]

Henry being kind of a wild boy in this one. I like it

[@donh1572]

I was amazed that the little weight gain I got with the SOCOM barrel, really made a big difference to how uncomfortable it was to carry and use the gun for long periods of time…became a pencil barrel fan ever since

[@jesseyoung7855]

The real benefit in a heavy barrel, that I can tell is in longevity. It's the heat cycling that destroys barrels. If it's slower to heat, and slower to cool, it ought to last longer. Vs a thin barrel, well cool quicker, and thereby shifting back to zero quicker. Also, both will have their harmonics change as the barrel heats up, but not in the same way. You've done a great job dispelling the myth, but I don't think it added enough to our base knowledge in order to make predictions.

[@CaptainCreampie69]

Kids want sub moa AR15 platforms as defense guns, for one can you shoot sub moa? How far do you really plan on shooting a 223 auto loading rifle in a hunting or self defense scenario? A coyote at 200-300 yards is doable but you are not shooting a self defense scenario against a moving target that shoots back at you and will take cover at that range. You will shoot at most 25 yards in your house and maybe 50 on a large piece of property. Unless the world is ending you wont be shooting far. If that were the case perhaps a SCAR17 would suit you better with a couple of your crew carrying 223 and 2 guys running a 308. It just isn’t a realistic scenario for us normal people. Different guns and cartridges exist for a reason. Great video!

[@TheGodfather-sp9xk]

Great video, that 1911 Josh is rocking caught my eye. Looks almost like a PMA Operator or something similar, definitely fitting for GWOT and discussions on block II’s.

[@drewbaby1965]

Thank you guys for clarifying that!

[@thagrifster594]

Any review that starts with the AWP(CS) is going to be awesome!

[@DAP-1776]

I've had really good luck with my colt socom barrel. It has produced submoa groups @100 but i have a surefire socom can on it, the added weight likley helps, and like any other barrel you have to find what match ammo it prefers.

[@manuelsandino9248]

What was the range distance and ammo used? Just curious. If its 100 meters, that is pretty good grouping, considering that SOTIC candidates needed to shoot 1 out of 3 groups within 1.25 inch circle at 25 meters with iron sights. As easy as this sounds, many didn't pass.

[@9HoleReviews]

100m with IMI Razor Core 77gr, that's crazy that many didn't pass that!

[@manuelsandino9248]

They used M855 which is at best a 3 MOA round, but very doable. Some choked, some just had bad fundamentals. Love your channel guys.

[@1blueeye]

Were the SOTIC candidates under stress? Just curious, thanks for sharing if you can.

[@manuelsandino9248]

@@1blueeye self induced stress, SOTIC/SFSC was a gentleman's course but you manage to psyche yourself for no reason when you think your peers are watching you.

[@EddieKuznetsova]

My grandfather was a Marine in Korea. Mad respect.

[@FlashinthePan82]

y'all and Bloke/Chap are for sure my kind of gun nerds. Keep up the good work!

[@petesheppard1709]

From internet civvie street, I started hearing about heavy barrel M4s in the aftermath of the Battle of Wanat, where soldiers in close combat burned out their standard-barrel M4 carbines. As Chris Bartocci has pointed out, the M4 was not intended nor spec'd for such heavy use; it was originally intended for relatively light use by rear area, non-infantry troops. Given its light weight and handiness, though, it found wide popularity and acceptance with regular and special operations troops so was pushed far beyond its original objectives. FWIW, Mrgunsngear Mike got slightly better accuracy out of a bog-standard S&W Sport II, which is a heavy barrel 'budget' tier AR.

[@davidjernigan8161]

Seems like POI shift and ability to hold group size would be affected by stress relieving, barrel material quality, and precision in drilling/rifling of the barrel rather than just going to a fatter and heavier barrel.

[@R.Sole88109]

I assume a quality lighter barrel generally heat up and dissipate the heat quicker whereas heavy barrel retains the heat for longer. It'd be interesting doing the same test after a 5+mag dump to see if the DD sustains the accuracy. A break contact accuracy test if you will. All the best for the New Year, Legends🙌🏻

[@mattsterpiecenjmaflva9956]

Super nerdy and fantastic, lol. I have the DD M4A1 upper and am glad to hear it held it’s own 👊🏻

[@rockhuddy]

One potential downside to a lightweight profile is that when you contour the barrel blank, you risk opening up the bore and groove dimensions as residual stress from buttoning or hammer forging is released. This phenomenon is most commonly seen when turning blanks down to a pencil profile for carbon wrapping, and the more material you remove, the greater the odds of the bore diameter growing. This would cause an overall reduction in accuracy whether the barrel is hot or cold, in addition to any potential accuracy loss as the barrel heats up. The problem can be avoided through proper post-rifling stress relief, but at least some risk still remains. Turning lightweight profiles also tends to cause more machining chatter, which may not affect accuracy but it does make the manufacturing process more difficult.

[@alanmeyers3957]

However, did you know when a hammer forged barrel is, contoured, it actually contracts instead of expanding like it does in a button rifled barrel.

[@theGhost_141]

I have a 14.5 SOCOM M4 barrel on my URGI M4 rifle and it's been amazing

[@javasoldier5926]

what a review! thank you guys

[@Will-W]

This was interesting. I always assumed it was more about heat than MOA. Accuracy comes from barrel harmonics, skill of shooter, stability, etc. The heavy barrel just takes longer to droop. The results here were cool to see.

[@Jazzman-bj9fq]

Makes total sense for me. Small arms for high intensity units don't need precision accuracy on their assault weapons, they need consistency and durability with acceptable accuracy out to a minimum of 300m.

[@Sk8inbacon]

Haha, as soon as I saw it was a colt barrel vs a DD barrel I knew the outcome, regardless of the parameter of differing profiles. I say this out of experience both professionally and on the civilian side just hobby shooting. I think the biggest factor you can really have for an AR (we’ll say all being an equal 16” or 14.5) is the quality of the barrel (manuf.) and the ammo being shot.

[@Native_love]

11:35 is my favorite part! This is how I pictured him at home. :-)

[@herknorth8691]

Very informative. My next question would be if a pencil profile were pitted against a "anti-government profile" like the Daniel Defense S2W, Ballistic Advantage Hansen, BCM ELW, Faxon Gunner, or similar where it's essentially a pencil profile but with extra material at the chamber end of the barrel.

[@9770G]

My first ar15 I got recently was a fully ballistic advantage rifle with a 16in Hanson profile barrel. My next rifle will be a full gucci ar15. Thinking a DD M4A1 upper and for a lower either aero or ADM/Radian ambi lowers.

[@williamd8867]

I was impressed with my Colt SOCOM profile before I knew it was supposed to be a thing. Always hovered a little over MOA. But I’m not surprised with the DD either, my mk18 shoots a lot better than it ‘should’

[@XaviarCraig]

Interesting~ I ended up replacing a shotout DPMS M4 barrel (gov profile) with a Colt SOCOM one simply because I wanted something a bit more robust ontop of something more accurate(that came with a FSB). The DPMS M4 barrel started losing it's rifling at the chamber after 4000-4500 rounds of a mix of steel and brass under a mixture of firing conditions(some slow some very fast). It's groups went from 2.5 MOA to around 8 MOA (reddots only). The Colt SOCOM barrel has had around 6000 rounds through it so far of similar ammo and conditions and the rifling is still well intact at both ends. Initially it was around 2 MOA and it's now around 2.5 MOA(reddots only again) I am not sure if the extra barrel material contributes to that or if its just purely manufacturing differences between Colt and DPMS, but the SOCOM barrel is most certainly holding up better than the DPMS M4 barrel! Edit: all ammo was either M193, M855, or steel cased junk from Tula/bear/wolf

[@Rocketrich88]

Well Done Gents! Still my favorite GunTube Dudes on the inter-webs. It would be interesting to see how a low profile gas block would effect both barrels (floating). Possibly reduce some of that whipping?

[@jamesdesrosier8226]

This brings a smile to my face

[@zact9941]

Great episode!

[@richc767]

Another great video with lots of great information.

[@sergecashman4822]

When I was in the Israeli Marines I asked the special units guys why they had thick barrels. They told me it was for using hotter rounds, so they had better penetration capacity (shooting through walls, bulletproof vests etc) compared to the standard 5.56. It' sounded kind of similar to the Uzzi pistols - they can use hotter 9mm parabellum rounds that were designed for the Uzzi submashine guns.

[@alanmeyers3957]

BS

[@sergecashman4822]

@@alanmeyers3957 I wouldn't discount it off-hand. Back then (early 90s) we as recruits didn't know much about ammo. But something like 5 months into basic training our officer set up a side by side comparison of shooting at cinder blocks from a vietnam era "short M16" as we called them carabine and a FN Minimi (there were no Negevs back then). There was a major difference. Minimi definitely had different ammo. Maybe Nato standards were different compared to the ammo we had. Back then special units used the rifles we had and the really special units used a thickened barrel version. It could be because a volume of fire, too, but thin barrels never stopped anybody in the firefight to keep shooting. Regular combat units still used Galil until around 93-94. And Shayeted were still with AK 47s. Matter of fact you can see those thickened barrels in today's war, used by recon units of paratroopers and infantry (while regular units use micro-Tavors) and most other units some version of a tricked out M4..

[@buff34x]

As a general comment on barrels and accuracy, from my experience and light research, a group shifting left or right when the barrel warms up is due to a bad or improper heat treatment. How quickly and how far the group shifts downward is based off profile and material. Sustained accuracy comes from both factors and is proportionate to how accurate the system is overall. Ultimately, I tend to choose a tapered profile barrel like a Hanson or Gunner and do not like gov't or socom profiles for anything other than clones

[@pauldees5003]

Great stuff guys!!

[@fujimi715]

Couple things to note as I have a DD M4A1 1. The barrel isn't government..its M4 profile. The government cut doesn't have the M203 cutout. The M4 cut does 2. Didn't mention that the DD is cold hammer forged. The Colt is not. This is how it achieves same performance without the thicker profile. 3. The performance of both rifles seems to be functionally about the same. Main difference is weight and price. The DD costs more but weighs less. 4. When under sustained fire, the DD maintains functional accuracy compared to a lower grade weapon. All done within a matter of minutes, and same optic and rest, my SW MP15 loses accuracy after about 3 mags and I can't hit the same targets I was on the first mag. For the DD however on the 7th mag (last of a full combat loadout) I am still hitting the same targets. On 6th and 7th mag, I can hit a 5in plate at 200m, 66% silhouette at 275m, and full size at 350m, all with either M855 or M855A1 issued ammo.

[@andrewgable7273]

Interesting results. Not surprised by DD winning that. Those barrels are cold hammer forged. Not sure on the SOCOM, but I doubt it is hammer forged. Tho, hammer forge a SOCOM profile, SHOULD be a drastic improvement over a button/cut barrel. Is it possible to source a SOCOM hammer forged barrel??? Get your hands on one, then redo the test. Interesting results. Here is another tip that military barrels SHOULD go thru, but don't. Cryo treat the barrels BEFORE the chambering process. That will uniform the grain structure of the barrel, and GENERALLY makes better improvements, last longer. Food for thought. BTW, I shoot long range and have a couple nice custom rifles. That is how I know this stuff. Years of experience and testing. Looking forward to my next project completion. A updated pre-64 Van Orden M40. Can't wait for that to be finished!!!!

[@herbbie4714]

Ive owned 2 of these Colt Socom 14.5 barrels in my clone fanboy days, both FSP and non. Those were the groups I was getting with 77gr also. Def a little over hyped but still great uppers.

[@terrye6853]

Excellent content as always,

[@Ravenzer0x]

May have done it already, But it would be interesting to see the colt socom barrel vs a CHF socom profile barrel. Especially if the CHF socom profile barrel is chf the same way the DD ones are.

[@leroyjenkins4811]

I don’t know if that’s possible. I could be wrong but I only know of two companies making the SOCOM profile M4 barrel, Colt and Bravo Company. As far as I know, both manufacturers use a button rifling process to make their barrels. There may not actually be anybody who makes a SOCOM profile barrel using a CHF process. But I don’t think it matters much. They used a Daniel Defense CHF Government profile M4 barrel for the test. DD uses CHF. I think that’s about as close as we’re going to get. In the end, I don’t think it matters much. As there wasn’t much of a difference in accuracy. People in the forums are saying SOCOM went with a heavier profile barrel for durability and heat buildup considerations. Heavier profile barrels seem to have less problems with chamber throat erosion over longer periods of time. IDK. I’m not in the active duty Army anymore and I hate carrying heavy stuff.

[@bulkingsmeagol9623]

@@leroyjenkins4811 Centurion Arms makes a SOCOM profile CHF barrel actually

[@andreharris9474]

I consider u my Military School Teacher thanks luv all vids 👍🏾

[@ShunbunNoHi]

Based on shooting my henry 22mag pump action with a heavy octagon barrel, just 5 shots makes that barrel hot and it retains its heat well.

[@jkellyid]

Love the video, great topic to explore. I would point out the metallurgical differences between a modern DD barrel and the Legacy SOCOM profile. A SOCOM is 4150... A DD is 4150 CMV CHF If you want to compare profiles I'd encourage the contrast of same metals. So please do this with a colt Gov profile 4150 vs Colt Socom 4150. I looked for a Socom profile 4150 CMV CHF and could not find it. Also, a less prominent factor, you have to consider mint dates on the barrels. Modern Colt is not what it was in 2005, if you stated it in the video, I missed it. But I imagine Colt barrel QC today is not the same as it was then, similar to Douglas barrel quality seemingly degrading for newer offerings. Seemingly their reduction in volume seems to imply a reduction in QC or that the same QC is not maintained for commercial grade products. Merry Christmas!

[@ricks.1092]

All 4150 barrels are Chrome Moly. In fact all 4100 series steel is all Chrome Moly. The "V" stands for vanadium...which makes the barrel a little stronger. The Forging process has nothing to do with accuracy. Forging simply makes the steel stronger....more durable. So the 4150 barrel and 4150 CMV is the same steel...except that vanadium is added to one barrel. Most have no clue what the difference is between 4140 and 4150 steel barrel. The last two digits is a how much carbon was added to the steel. in tenths of 1 percent. 4140 has 4 tenths of one percent of carbon added to the barrel material (4100 series SAE steel).

[@jkellyid]

​@@ricks.1092 yeah I think I was suggesting that? The Vanadium and Cold Hammer Forging. Both effectively temper the metal to be more stable and rigid across a broader range of temps (this being a hot barrel test). I'm not sure what I said that was incorrect in the original post. The metals and production process of the barrels is not identical. If you are comparing a variable you need to isolate, its part of proper process. Just get a COLT 14.5 barrel with identical metal and fabrication and now you can compare the performance of the profile. Just sad for how cool I think this video is that no one considered it. We were not fielding DD barrels with vanadium and cold hammer forging 20 years ago when the socom profile came about.

[@MellowFellowOfYellow]

DD makes a Socom profile barrel but its only available for the M4A1 stripped upper sold by Brownells.

[@bulkingsmeagol9623]

Centurion Arms makes a CHF socom profile barrel

[@barrycrossnoe4801]

I’m late to the party in commenting this, but I think the defining difference between the two barrels is how they’re made. The Colt SOCOM Profile barrel is button rifled, whereas the Daniel Defense M4 Profile barrel is cold hammer forged. I love my cold hammer forged barrels and I will have nothing else (after owning a rough button rifled barrel). Just my two cents.

[@danielblackburn4626]

Love this channel!

[@phillipboisselle293]

Killer video as always guys!

[@gregorholmes1837]

I have a BCM Recce, 16" hammer forged light wieght barrel. It shoots 1/2-3/4 moa with honady fronteer 62g fmj ammo.

[@doncarr9860]

Alright I'm hooked! You guys are awesome!

[@racer14glr91]

9HR killing it again!

[@ShepherdOfTheSilkies]

@9holereviews y’all should do this type of test with the KAC QDSS suppressor on both as a cold, warm and hot accuracy test. I see people all the time talk about groups opening up and groups just moving down but not opening up.

[@eugeneanderson8706]

Ever tried the CHF SOCOM barrels? Remington Defense made them for the Philippine Army, wondering if there's a noticeable difference in accuracy.

[@thereloadingcraft]

Fascinating video gents, well done!

[@tommyseabee2176]

Barrel quality and cemetery matter the most. If the bore is exactly centered in the barrel it will warp less to any one side. If the bore is off at all and has a thinner section that heats up faster and pulls the barrel off center, it will be largely affected by heat.

[@irafowlerjr.7492]

Fantastic, great info, really enjoyed, thanks