The Spade Bit: The Angle of the Spoon

[@jadam-2024]

Hope you both have a great 2023. I hear Pat always speak with high regard for teachers and writers (authors). I hope you realize you’re doing the same with these videos. You’re creating quite the archive through video.

[@CHorseGuitar]

The videos where you talk history are my favorite! Thank you for sharing!

[@valeriehudson7276]

Thank you for the history it does make sense & what I like to see in the horse head placement, not that I can achieve it yet but what I want to move toward. Great archive photos.

[@JamesMilly-v3z]

Hello, how are you doing?

[@1977Mappy]

I have always appreciated the look of what I've known my entire life as a West Coast style or California style horse. I like a horse that is looking through & behind the bridle. There are still a lot of Texas waddies that don't like a horse that is what they call behind the vertical or behind the bridle & will negatively remark or mark down a horse that will carry themselves in this fashion. If a horse will pick its back up, drive from behind up underneath, it's self & and stays soft more times than not, they naturally find this type of head carriage to some degree. Of course, some horses & breeds are built differently. Anyway, I seek this with my horses & and I appreciate that you do too. Thanks for sharing. Matt from Idaho

[@carlymarchbank165]

I’m from the Ohio and real horsemen don’t really exist here. If I’m having any trouble I come straight here for the best advice and I just want to thank you! You’ve taught me so much!

[@SatiricalLizard]

I know of a good horseman in Ohio. Check out Ted from Windy Hill Farm. Ted practices classical horsemanship. He has two KZbin channels, "Handy Horseman" and "Windy Hill Farm".

[@emersontayten]

Excellent study for the night! Thanks guys.

[@tinoyb9294]

Kinda answered my question about breed versus spade bit type from a while back. Thanks.

[@CyrilCambien]

Very informative. Thank you.

[@WesternWandererJM]

Pat & Deb, I'd like to know about the role of the braces in a spade bit and also spoon design for someone looking for their first spade bit to go in the 2 rein with. I'd assume after going through the bosal and getting to one hand riding your horse will show a natural head / self carriage. Could you address spade height and brace design for differently built horses most of your students will have? a 15 hand cow bred Quarter horse vs a 16 hand Three Bars horse for example?

[@jackkrag]

Thank you good people.

[@CDavis28]

I love listening and learning from you Mr. Puckett. It’s too bad your not around Oklahoma more often it would be cool to hang with you for a day and get to observe. I really do enjoy your videos you remind me a whole lot of my grandpa that I lost last year. He would have really appreciated the way you speak about horses and how not to betraying them. Thanks for putting these videos out there. There just aren’t many of the good Men out there to set a example anymore.

[@Floppy-Ears]

Pat & Deb, great video. I really enjoyed the pictures, they really demonstrated the differences. Can you show us the angle and balance point of some bits for some of the modern horses? Thank you

[@PatnDebPuckett]

I'm assuming by modern horses you mean horses that are built either flat or downhill? We don't have any bridle horses that are built like that. The angle of the spoon would have to be laid back to compliment the way the horse's neck comes out of the shoulder.

[@alejandrosanchez6683]

Hello Mr. And Mrs. Puckett I would like to hear Mr. Puckett’s opinion on ring bits, if he could please share with us some of his knowledge about ring bits and California, spade bits versus ring bits opinion. Im my town my grand parents used the sequence of Bozal then promoting the horse into the ring bit and then the graduation and final bit that the horse used for life which was a bit different than the ring bit. Thank you for sharing all this info with us!

[@Karen-px9wh]

Thank you! It makes perfect sense.

[@susanwolfson3021]

I came up riding around a broad variety of horses found at the crossroads for everything in the world, Panama. Because of the influence of Spanish aristocracy there were a lot of Iberian horses bred, and cross bred with thoroughbred, Spanish barb, and QH. Each on its own had a natural head set very much more relaxed than the naturally vertical head set of any of the Iberian. And, it was only the Iberian or those crossbreeds with the vertical headset that were ridden with a spade bit. So, my take on your display of the transition in headset and bitting is that as the bloodlines of horses used on the ranged changed, so did the headset and style of bits. If I remember correctly from your first videos of Chinaco, you said he was of thoroughbred blood. And that made sense to me that you like other old school great basin ranchmen I know like a thoroughbred breed /style horse. If Chinaco isn't, and has more Iberian or Arabian blood, then... Never mind my next question. But .... I would beg the question, why would you want Chinaco to have a headset that is possibly unnaturally vertical for him as a thoroughbred (as in your "after WW" pics), like an Iberian in emulation of a historical image of a different breed of horse. A headset can always be forced on a horse, like the peanut rolling QH style, but forcing it creates a skeletal profile that isn't natural or can be an uncomfortable way of going for the horse. Possibly manifesting in physical stress injuries later on. Susan Wolfson 58 yrs equine experience

[@PatnDebPuckett]

Chinaco's dam is a Lusitano imported from Brazil and his sire is an Andalusian who was bred in the USA. I don't think you can get a horse that looks more Iberian than he does...especially that head!

[@susanwolfson3021]

@@PatnDebPuckett Well in that case, it makes sense. He does have the typical Iberian head.

[@dwrr9084]

Great video and explanation.

[@spedoclctr]

Very informative, as usual . Have a great year. Thank you.

[@scottc3165]

That was super clear. I love that trivia/history. I always try to figure out how they did things back in the days when horses were a necessity of life. If you ever get the chance I would love to know about how they traveled long distances with a pack horse when they had to stake out their horses at night, and all the concerns and precautions they may have had to consider. I usually stake out with a front foot on a smallish log that they can drag around a little bit. I have never been taught anything about it and haven't had any trouble thus far, but maybe there's a better way or maybe I'm not considering a down side that hasn't come up yet. Anyway, thank you for sharing your knowledge!

[@peytonvalentine9326]

Pat and Deb, thanks a ton for this video and all the others. I’m from southern Colorado and have grown up with the more Texas style with leverage bits and short ropes haha. We raise our own quarter horses and I’ve got a colt that I’d love to make into a good bridle horse one day. Could he ever carry a spade because he’s a QH? Would a San Joaquin with a Santa Barbara cheek be best for him? That might be a silly question but I have some confusion there. Thanks for all you do!

[@danhall6486]

That was an excellent explanation, thank you so much. I have several spade bits from different time periods with different spoon angles. Now I know why. One thing I noticed is that the older bits are more narrow than the newer, up to an inch. Am I correct in this observation? Once again thank you so much for this post, made my day!

[@ChessHorseTraining]

From what I understand, it's because the Iberian horses had much smaller mouths than your typical horse today.

[@roberthambly9926]

Wow this was a great and of course informative video. Thanks'

[@carlaperry4649]

Yes that was indeed helpful.

[@BigLoopHorsemanship]

Thank you for this!!

[@juliemcbride8722]

Looks like a Great Wall mural 😊

[@Livefreejeeper]

Love the perspective. To me it makes sense I think in the world war we had a lot of riders/trainers just trying to get horses to the soldiers. They changed thing to expedite the training and of both horse and rider.

[@JamesMilly-v3z]

Hello, how are you doing?

[@lauramoy9940]

I thought that looked like Bill Dorrance on that horse. I can tell the way hes sitting.

[@spyrowinner5782]

Like from the Ukraine🇺🇦. Nice👍

[@josephdemoor9680]

Pat, do metallic bits create pain to the horse??

[@tinoyb9294]

No, lousy hands do.

[@johnjacobs4207]

We need to take into consideration horses with imperfect necks that are trying to carry the spade also the age of the horse and how much he was ridden with the principle of bend before trying to carry the spade.

[@PatnDebPuckett]

We don’t use spade bits on horses that have been ridden in other bits and that have not come up through the different stages of the hackamore.

[@PatnDebPuckett]

We also don’t believe every young horse is a candidate for the spade bit. Only those that have the conformation for it.

[@jamescottrell5590]

Woohoo! Yeea ha

[@vaqueritof7565]

I don't think they are from Santa Barbara (Santa Barbara bits) (cheeks piece) Originally because some old charros still use that style down in Mexico . so like almost everything that was happening in Alta California was happening in Mexico in the mission days, as far as ranching was concerned. Californianos where far from the mainland but not far enough to be culturally different from ranchers down south

[@slrdf1758]

They are from Santa Bárbara and they’ve been made in Santa Bárbara for years. Every community from Santa Inés to Las Cruces have been making their own shanks and styles of bits ever since the first blacksmiths arrived in those areas in the 1700’s. Also, I’ve never seen a charro use a Santa Bárbara shank, and the closest thing to it is the “pata de s” which it’s related to. Although there are similar shanks like the “pata de higo”, they’re not the same tradition wise and functionally. The Santa Bárbara shank evolved here from the original “pata de s” bits that were brought from Northern Spain and or other places in the pacific such as Peru. I do remind you that even as south as Sinaloa, it’s a different culture than the Bajío or the central south part of Mexico where they used the gineta style of riding, while the “a la brida” style was used the provincias internas de occidente which includes Sinaloa, Sonora, and the Californias. There are even bits from South America and from parts of Europe that are the exact types of mouthpieces or shanks used in places like the Californias as well as Sonora and Sinaloa, while the equipment in Central Mexico was derived from the Gineta discipline brought by the conquistadors.

[@slrdf1758]

And during the 1700’s, they were drastically different. In California, they didn’t use horns or big bits like in the gineta tradition, the style of riding that gave the origin of the California disciple was the “a la brida” or “baroque riding”. The suits as well as the position in riding was also different to the ones used in central Mexico at that time. It only became Mexicanized after Mexico took control of Alta California in 1823, but still retained some of the mission traditions from the 18th century

[@vaqueritof7565]

@@slrdf1758 American literature wants to separate el bajio "Mexican" from the northern Mexico style of ranching and horsemanship . but in reality what changed was asthetics . I have seen charros use that Santa Barbara shank but they are called something else down there.

[@vaqueritof7565]

@@slrdf1758 Mexicanized? the same Californianos where indeed very Mexican despite some American cowboy literature trying to dispel that .there is a picture of some original Californians around 1880s wearing what you would now consider a charro outfit

[@vaqueritof7565]

@@slrdf1758 the Modern Mexican saddle with a big horn was a cheaper version(outa necessity)of the old vaqueros saddle and was starting to become popular in Mexico around 1880"s and the long shnk bits barely in 1970s

[@stephencrawford5656]

My immediate response is: Don’t you have this backwards? Doesn’t the horse carry the bit in a way to accommodate the spoon angle rather than the other way around? In other words, if you want the horse to carry its’ head in the traditional way, I would think you would use a bit with a straighter spoon angle to train him to do that.

[@PatnDebPuckett]

Absolutely not. If you want a horse to carry his head like an Iberian horse then that’s the kind of horse you should have. Trying to force a modern day quarter horse into an unnatural head carriage unsuited to his individual conformation will only lead to problems like resentment, bracing, heaviness in the bridle, and the need to ride mechanically.

[@dwrr9084]

It seems like being posed for a picture, the angles may look good but feel unnatural and hard to maintain if your not built for it.