The Story Without A Plot

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The story without a plot:
Shadowrun: Dragonfall vs Pillars of Eternity. This video is a bit of a love letter to one of my favorite game series of the last couple of years. I felt the story of Shadowrun was so good that it might help me understand better why I disliked and was so bored of Pillars of Eternity if I compared the first hour of each game to one another.
In this video I compare the stories and plot structure of these two games. Which one will come out on top?
video essay, game review, game design

[@StratEdgyProductions]

So I think I should say something. The point of this video is not to bash Pillars, which is a decent game. In many of the more intellectually honest reviews I have heard of this game, the reviewer almost inevitably says the game starts out slow. The point of this video is to show why it is slow, and attribute it solely to the fact that its plot structure, at least in the first four hours, is fundamentally flawed, and weak, and how something that innocuous can lead to a game starting slow.

[@garr123]

Your gameplay complaints are strange. PoE on hard is about the same as BGII on D&D rules. As far as comboing abilities, the option is absolutely there in PoE, so I don't know what you're on about. Arguably you have more latitude for strategizing in PoE because all the martial classes have active abilities, whereas in BG most of them could only attack. Personally, PoE's DLC had more difficult fights than anything I encountered in BGII.

[@NoFuture396]

PoE has terrible gameplay, there's absolutely no comparison to BG2. I'll give you an objective reason. In BG2 you could solo a ..Dragon with a 13 lvl mage in the hardest difficulty and win every time - provided you did everything right. In PoE there isn't - at least before the DLC's - any defense that doesn't rely upon chance. So while in BG2 you shielded a character from fire to 100% immunity, in PoE you just bolster their reflex.. That's just stupid. Good gameplay is about forcing the player to discover what works. PoE was so obsessed with balancing - like it's a freaking mmo - that everything is equally weak. The story is good though and Durance is arguable on par with the best of them.

[@Nr4747]

Absolutely *not* true. There are *several* videos online of people soloing the hardest encounters of both the base game *and* the (harder) DLC on solo characters on the *hardest* difficulty plus "Trial of Iron" - which means you only get 1 save file and if your character dies once at any point, the save file gets deleated. And those videos definitely don't look like the players cheated their way around that restriction.

[@NoFuture396]

It's called save-scumming. And even if someone managed to do it, what of it? How does it make my statement false? I never said you couldn't beat the game. What I said is that since all your defenses rely on luck it can't really be compared to BG2 which was for all intents and purposes like chess. Thx for the *bold* however. Oh, I'm gonna abuse the living h..

[@Nr4747]

Well, there are dozens of videos out there of people doing this, I highly doubt that all of them save-scummed. The combat in Pillars is *highly* tactically on higher difficulties, there is no real way to deny that fact. I never said that Pillars was *the* most tactical RPG ever or even that it was more tactical than BG or BG2, but your arguments about it somehow not being tactical are highly flawed. You're basically arguing that the second fastest man alive "isn't actually fast at all because Usain Bolt was faster at the Olympics" - this is called "moving the goalposts" and is a common debating technique that almost always leads to skewed perspectives and faulty arguments.

[@clarencegutsy7309]

I hope somebody tells Obsidian that you get more mileage out of four great, structured and informative sentences than four paragraphs that sees the reader treading until the writer is done staring at their reflection in the water.

[@StratEdgyProductions]

Hah. Nice Narcissus reference and I think that is a common issue with writers. I call it, up their own ass syndrome.

[@cata112233]

I take pleasure in experiencing the beauty of artistic writing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@SolManDude]

@@cata112233 9 times out of 10 its more like autistic writing. if you want good writing. go read a book.

[@SolManDude]

@@anonymouseovermouse1960 games are a visual media. its not about the writing. its about telling you a story through visuals and gameplay mechanics. dialogue and eloquent writing might be nice in some niche story based games but its not to be expected. also the fuck is that scroll you wrote in reply to me? learn to paragraph. shorten that shit or give me a TLDR cuz no one in their right mind would sit down and read that.

[@SolManDude]

@@anonymouseovermouse1960 i cant be assed to read those shity scrolls man. learn to hit the enter key while you write or knock like half of that shit off.

[@blackmonish]

I love Tyranny hands down over this game, and what you speak of hints at one of the biggest reasons why: in Tyranny you are a made man, a character that gets shit done right from your opening choices, then you continue to make choices that have huge implications- you are important because your character made themself that way. In Pillars however, you are pulled through the narrative, then become a living macguffin (essentially)- you are important because the narrative makes you important. Tyranny is so damn good...

[@eliran9231]

pillars is not different from most RPGs or video games in that sense tho, even in bg 1 and 2 the narrative flows because, as you said, "you are important because the narrative makes you important".

[@Robert399]

I thought Tyranny had a good premise but nowhere near enough stuff to fill out the world and insane railroading once you've picked your path. Honestly, once I'd finished the prologue, it was never as interesting again.

[@theunhappygamer1744]

@@Robert399 Well it was a lower budget title and was priced accordingly. It was a risky title for the studio to begin with and the games final sales were reported to be somewhat limited. So the developers weren't really going for a massive epic open world. But I thought the world building and story masterfully showcased the corner of the world the character had been sent in to gain control of.

[@Malisa1990]

@@Robert399 I picked go against everyone path and it was great, because I wasn't railroaded, I had the option of choosing several times if I want to join the rebels.

[@Robert399]

@@Malisa1990 Really? I thought the only chances to join the rebels were in the prologue. I intended to play a well-meaning Kyros loyalist who gradually changed allegiances but I wasn't able to. Once I picked Disfavored in the prologue (because the Chorus are lunatics), my only options were them or anarchist (which is dumb because you still have to fight all the factions you want to help).

[@Zarala2010]

"He is an exposition terminal posing as NPC" That killed me! XD

[@albedoshader]

The word Monika says at 24:58 before dying is “Feuerschwinge”, which is German and translates to “fire-wing” (Feuer=fire, Schwinge=wing). Understanding the meaning of the German words and visual references/gags (e. g. in the street signs and show signs) is a nice little bonus. It shows their attention to detail in the verbal and visual storytelling. It’s not pronounced like “fewer-shwinge” but rather like “foyer-shwing-eh”. ;)

[@Pantalaymo]

"Feuerschwinge" actually is a german word :D Literally translated it means "Fire-Wing". But I love your pronunciation!

[@StratEdgyProductions]

Lol, man I tried :)

[@zzxp1]

I really liked Dragonfall, such an underrated game that got eclipsed by PoE and DoS.

[@Robert399]

Dragonfall is easily my favourite isometric RPG. I like it even more than the BG series.

[@NuclearNarwhalSquad]

And it's really sad that we probably won't see much more of these characters. It was definitely the strongest of the shadow run trilogy

[@morriganlefay5438]

"fuhrer shvinj" That hurt my soul

[@Elgar337]

The goal of the design of the PoE stats was to not have dump stats. Also, might is not physical strength. I think you just couldn't escape the prejudice.

[@NoName-ym5zj]

Shadowrun is a very atmospheric game, i like how they describe scenes

[@diegowushu]

It's very memorable, like a virtual dungeon master in the vein of Fallout 1/2's little description text box.

[@merdufer]

I enjoyed exploring the Pillars world and settings. A lot. It's atmospheric. It's epic. Couldn't tell you much about its plot though. There was a hollowborn problem. I never saw it myself, but it sounded pretty bad from what others told me, so I fixed it. I think that was the plot.

[@undeadpyxel]

Comparing Pillars of Eternity and Shadowrun is like comparing Frank Herbert and William Gibson. Gibson's cyberpunk novels put you right in the action, there are things happening in every chapter and the story unwinds at a rapid pace. Frank Herbert takes hundreds of pages to spit out any semblance of a plot and even more pages to finally resolve it, but his works are meant to mimic the journey of the main characters that the reader can follow - they are stories about unassuming people becoming great heroes, even ascending to godhood. You simply cannot pace a story about a character becoming a demigod the same way you would a noir cyberpunk novel. It all comes down to a personal preference and I love them both (games and authors), so I guess I win.

[@nickcarbaugh4301]

Balduran You can pick your berries, I have to track down thr guys who betrayed by team of highly trained criminals

[@undeadpyxel]

Then more power to you, chummer.

[@yugen]

Well said. I really enjoyed both but Pillars is much more memorable for me.

[@Trildin]

@Nick Carbaugh So ignorant.. can you be any more of a follower? You guys honestly bother the shit out of me with how closed-minded you are. Just go play your 1 game and never look out to all the cool different games the rest of us enjoy. Dumbasses.

[@shawngillogly6873]

Except that there's nothing of Dune in Pillars. Within the 1st 100pages of Dune, we knew House Atreides was obliged to take a 'promotion' that was clearly a political trap. That Paul was an heir of more than the House. That Jessica had betrayed her order for love, & they were at best bemused. We learned in the first half of the first act of Pillars that we had memories of past lives & that the offer of land wasn't as golden as promised. Nothing in that justifies us sticking around, mind you. There's no personal stake beyond the cultists. And did they intentionally threaten the PC? Nope. A curiosity. But not compelling. And this is the problem with Pillars in general. Obsidian loves deconstruction so much that they've turned it into their own trope. It ceased being intriguing with Mask of the Betrayer. Now it's simply recycled sop to look literary. Plot matters.

[@FilthyNobeard]

I'm planning a Pathfinder campaign for me and a few of my friends, and this video has given me a much better idea about how I am to construct the plot. I saw the Morrowind video about More being less, and I am now binging your videos. Many thanks for the quality content.

[@StratEdgyProductions]

Thanks for the compliment. Working on a new short story that I may be commissioning art for to make an animatic for it. Make sure you sub so you can see the new videos I have planned.

[@StratEdgyProductions]

Also good luck with the pathfinder campaign. Writing your own campaign is an excellent intro to game design :)

[@FilthyNobeard]

Strat-Edgy Productions I've already subscribed, mate. And yeah, planning the campaign makes me hunger for better tools to craft my world with. Games would be a superb medium for it.

[@leramar]

((SPOILERS)) If you played up to the stronghold in PoE you would have learned that the watcher will eventually go insane due to their mind becoming overwhelmed by all of the souls they can connect with. That seems like a pretty good motivation for your character to continue on their journey rather than turning back. Plus earlier than that you find out that children in the country are being born without souls after a war with a living god and the guy who turned you into a watcher is connected somehow. That seems like a pretty good hook to me. I do agree with you that the story starts slow and there are a lot of exposition dumps but if you let yourself fall into the world it is pretty enjoyable. But each to their own I guess.

[@futonrevolution7671]

Yeah, but there are opportunities for your character to say that their motivation for being in the area in the first place is to hide and/or live in seclusion. Combined with how preachy we are with that insane Watcher, that life choice doesn't sound like one that our condition would interfere with much. Also, there's no indication given (up to that point, at least; I don't know about later) as to when the Saint's War (six months ago? fifteen years ago?) was or if absolutely every child since has been born without a soul. If they're hanging everyone who's birthed a soulless child, there are married folks and pregnant women still living there, and there was genuine hope that the local lord's baby would be born with a soul, then it's a low enough probability that - combined with the influx of outside settlers - it's not a long-term problem. I really want to like PoE, but instead of feeling any personal connection or sense of urgency, my character just seems like a passive... watcher.

[@AngelRaivan8579-xh4fr]

Why should you have to work to get interested?

[@zoblade2288]

It depends on whether you are imagining how this generic PC character would react if it were you, or if it hasn't hooked you yet, just that character himself. I think of it as, - Given this watcher power by simply being in the wrong place/wrong time. Coincidence. In the same note, going insane is just part that same bad luck, will pursuing the bad guy fix me? no? why pursue him then. - Children being born with souls, interesting, bad guy involved, cool. Who is my character again? Does he care? Is he a good guy? Just a nosy guy who got involved by sheer accident? At this point of revelation I'm still wondering who my PC is, none of the dialogue choices convey any sort of personality. - Despite not giving the PC any personality, the game insists on telling and not showing... I can see the fancy rocks, I don't need them described in detail. I can see the caravan master and can infer or imagine how he feels based on his dialogue, I don't need a description of his clothes or face, I can see him on the screen. If he makes an unexpected face or gesture, yea that is valid, but all the game does is describe and tell, EVEN things I can see on the screen. But hey, I'm a guy who goes to a sightseeing place and goes, oh... that's nice/beautiful/interesting view, whats the point now? Rather than someone who goes to those places and has an "experience" where the camera pans and spins around you while you open your arms, take in a deep breath and absorb the atmosphere and spirit etc etc.

[@teddycouch9306]

Uhhhhhh more like they go insane due to being awoken to their past lives.

[@Shadow850031]

Also... someone probably said this, but you do not have to have "singposted" dialog choices. You can customise what you want and don't want in PoE regarding inventory and dialogue.

[@MrSmart199]

im so glad youtube recommended your channel to me. Your videos are such high quality its insane how you dont have a ton more views

[@DocDelray]

So, this video got me to hop on Steam and grab up Shadowrun Returns. Y'know what, I agree, it's been a lot more fun to play than Pillars was. The very first mission I'm literally back to back with my only friend in the world of Shadowrunning, in a shoot out with corp mercs after we got sold out by one of our own. In fact, as of writing this I've only just now stopped playing it since buying it with a whopping 8 hours for my first time with the game. I'm loving the gritty noire cyberpunk world with dark sprinkling of magic. Hell, after 8 straight hours I've got a super charismatic gunslinger going that's able to delve into the world of the spirits as a part time shaman. So yeah, I'm loving the game. Anyways, I just wanted to speak my peace about this game and say thanks for bringing it to my attention. Like so many others I didn't even know it had been released since there was almost no one talking about it or trying to push the game during development. Now it has me wanting to find an actual table top version of the game to join.

[@phoenixoutoftheash]

DocDelray in my opinion Dragonfall is even better and Hongkong is pretty good as well

[@DocDelray]

I've been playing Dragonfall now that I'm done with Returns. It's been a lot of fun and a lot of butt hurt. I love the story and I love that I have progressive characters that grow with me as I play the game and play with them. Eiger by the way is my least favorite, every time she opens her mouth I can't not roll my eyes. It's at the point where I sometimes take whatever options story wise that make her mad. Where I think it falls short compared to the other one is in the shear mass of enemies and the RNG. After you slog through wave after wave of 6-7 dudes I get so tired of whatever map I'm on and I just want the mission to end. The RNG of the game also feels like it's stacked super hard against you. Even when the hit should be pretty much guaranteed you miss. I missed twice in a row on a 99% hit. The game is fun though and I'm gonna keep playing, I just get frustrated is all.

[@FalloutWanderer-uq5sh]

Shadowfall is superior in every way, if you like Returns, you should love Dragonfall. I just recently purchased Hong Kong, so I cannot speak on its quality, however, it's rated quite highly.

[@oliviawilliams6204]

I’m glad you enjoyed the games. As a backer of those games I’m glad other people enjoyed them

[@DocDelray]

@@oliviawilliams6204 hells ever since that post I've played through all three a couple times with various builds and even a couple of the community made campaigns. What I'm really stoked about though is that since then, my friends and I have been playing the table top game whenever we get the chance. We're currently trying to infiltrate a go gang that's been blowing up on the scene practically over night. So far so good, but I got a feeling we're going to be getting our hands real dirty pretty soon.

[@jackmanleblanc2518]

Now I'm curious about how you would rate the different origins of Dragon Age: Origins. Human noble is my personal favorite.

[@redmanish]

Jackman LeBlanc While it really seemed like human noble was meant to be the “default” questline (and I did enjoy it a lot) I also really enjoyed dwarven noble origin. Thought it really fleshed out that entire section of the game later. Also you get the backstory on the “direct from Orzammar” guy and what’s not to like about that lol

[@zzxp1]

Most of the origins are pretty good, the only ones i didn't liked much were the dalish elf and mage origins.

[@senilevideoenjoyer]

@@zzxp1 i really enjoyed the mage origin rip

[@zzxp1]

@@senilevideoenjoyer I mean it is not bad. But it is just that the noble human, noble dwarf and city elf have more sweet drama.

[@oliviawilliams6204]

I love city elf. Roaring rampage of revenge

[@michaelkenner3289]

Great video. I wanted to like Pillars but after playing it for an hour or so, I switched it off to have dinner and then just never got around to playing it again. Your video helped to explain why it failed to get me invested in the story or capture my attention. At the time I never really connected with why the game didn't quite work for me, but I think your explanation matches my own experience with the game. The various Shadowrun games are some of my favourite computer RPGs as well, so I could very much relate to your descriptions of how captivating some of those introductions are. I'm a hobbyist computer game programmer and I've found the Shadowrun games to be the perfect example of exactly the type of game I'd like to make.

[@TheJP100]

The way you said Feuerschwinge made my day! XD Great video btw (y)

[@perryborn2777]

I loved Dragonfall, it has great mods too!

[@alicealysia]

"this was a really long video." To me this was short, only half an hour? hahaha, but anyway, you've convinced me to get shadow run for sure. Your channel has been pretty helpful in teaching me further game design, particularly regarding writing. This medium is a baby in my opinion, and it still has a lot to learn.

[@oliviawilliams6204]

Alice Alysia I hope you enjoyed the game

[@macannathairghrian5257]

if I was playing just for the story I would of dropped pillars in the first act, I played it for the combat mostly, and luckily did come to like the story half way in. I really love your vids, I look forward to seeing your channel grow

[@OnStrike69]

I would love a separate video where you talked about all the shadowrun games with indepth analysis

[@Prophecyx01]

I believe Might also affects spell strength in several old RPGs, like Ultima, Wizardry, and Might and Magic.

[@TheBrazilRules]

Nope. You are pulling that out of your ass.

[@SolManDude]

i honestly dont get why people are bitching about might effecting magic. might isnt just a physical trait. its same with strength. physical strength \ mental strength are both viable description for strength. same with might. you can have arcane might. if anything might allows for more role playing then "im a mage so i must be smart". you can play as an idiot magician. or you can clame your a fighter that might not be really physically strong but just knows how to swing well and isnt a "i am physically strong because im a fighter"

[@hal900x]

We think alike with regard to CRPGs. I too was excited for, and then completely underwhelmed by Pillars. I played it about 4 hours also...and for me it was one of the rare games I purchased at full price at release. Ouch, impulse buys hurt when you're poor. Anyway, I subbed.

[@futonrevolution7671]

When the video title and thumbnail showed up in my sidebar, I was worried that you'd managed to have an awful time with Dragonfall, but somehow find something to hold onto in the Pillars of Eternity story that I couldn't. Different background (military brat stationed in Germany, so things were easier to afford but much harder to actually find), but I also grew up on early HBO and Basic through 2nd Edition (my brother sat on preschooler me to play O1 The Gem and the Staff with him). Especially thanks to an excellent sourcebook, Shadowrun was pretty big there. I fell in love with the concept of countering the inherent crippling pessimism of cyberpunk with the sappy optimism of high fantasy.

[@SubwaytoSally111]

Great video, every time i tried to slog through the beginning of pillars i got burned out right after i got the big city where the game opens up a bit more. You really feel like being a bystander at the beginning that has beeen dumped into an already ongoing story.

[@Northreyar7314]

While I agree that the plot of Dead man's switch, Dragonfall and Hong-Kong are stronger than that of PoE, (even though having a more focused plot was easier for shadowrun because DMS, DF and HK are like 15 hrs tops each, and PoE is like 80 hours long) I think that , since PoE is a new IP, they go to way greater lengths to do world building and how each character speaks in context to their own sociopolitical and religious perspective is handled masterfully and that the world and its many religions and historical background ended up being way more interesting that the plot itself. Then, there's the biggest criticism that I've had with the 3 new shadowrun campaigns in their new engine, the combat is a snorefest, the weapons are boring, the spells are boring, most of the magic classes are more useful as buffers rather than raining fire and summoning spirits, even the unlockable weapon skills aren't that interesting because there is always a clear better type of weapon that its going to be better lategame thus making smaller firearms useless for gun-focused classes like the samurai, and the worst part is that very little has been done to improve it over the course of 3 games, aside from the companions having unique abilities when you level them up allowing you to specialize them into something more fun. Pillar's combat on the other hand demands 100% of your attention (unless you're playing on the easy or story telling mode) you have to micro your heart out in difficult fights, pausing almost every frame, and with things like friendly fire and disengagement attacks being a thing, things can go wrong very quickly and you end up dead seconds into a fight, so it demands a lot from you, using party positioning, blocking chokepoints with your tanks, optimizing every bit of equipment and stats to get the best performance out of your party, its way more engaging and action packed, there's a lot more strategy involved and the spellcasters actually feel like cataclysmic powerhouses of the arcane in later levels

[@AnyPRKL]

I rained plenty of fire as a mage in Dragonfall, especially after bumping up willpower/spellcasting to highest levels. At the end I was throwing 50+dmg flamethrower crits like candy and well placed fireballs on conveniently clustered enemy groups felt immensely satisfying. Those along with CC spells like Petrify, Blind etc. made me feel like a GOD during endgame. A mean, vengeful God with 10armor and a fire fetish. Just have Dietrich act as your personal leyliner-buffbot and go crazy. Better yet, find a large leyline and go even more crazy. Shamans felt a bit mild, tho. Sure.

[@futonrevolution7671]

Other than SMGs, there aren't really any weak ranged weapons in the SR sequels; all of them scale, as the story progresses, and they cost less to upgrade than the spells do. Sure, without crits an assault rifle with Full Auto does the best single-target damage, but shotguns stun-lock and pistols do more damage per AP. If your Dragonfall street sammy sacrifices enough stats for a neat trick, you can even use that dinky starter pistol to disarm a certain minigun-toting orc in the Dragonfall's tutorial level. Still, it's a moot point... shuriken are the best weapon in Dragonfall and Hong Kong.

[@daviddanis6385]

@No Lümpen FTL: Faster Than Light is RTwP and it's an amazing game.

[@renewagain6956]

@4:10 "We need to talk about Monika." ... Just Monika.

[@derrinerrow4369]

I actually prefer a different Monika, she's also German suprisingly.

[@jamesgeorge7579]

Admittedly, I have only played Shadowrun: Hong Kong, and am not really sure how it compares to Returns or Dragonfall. But I loved how the dialogue and roleplaying, when I was reading the text I could almost hear the voices of the characters, the writing felt like how actual people would talk. I also really love how Shadowrun deals with Charisma, instead of simply being better at talking with people period like most games, etiquette's allowed for more intense roleplaying and cooler scenarios. My character is a gangster, so of course he can talk his way past thugs but be unable to convince some scientist to help him.

[@rallogump]

HA! I couldn't agree more. I just finished Dragonfall....Pillars, I got like 4 hours in and...that's about it. I wanted to like it, but so lost and just didn't care.

[@MrJherime]

Shadowrun for sega Gen was one of my favorite games too! My first rpg

[@lellkay]

I put 40 hours in to Pillars In the hope it would draw me in.... It didn't. Shadowrun had me in the first 20 mins

[@Vinzaf]

Verisimilitude, is how my friend described the stat problem of Pillars of Eternity. The stats don't give the appearance of seeming or feeling real.

[@pacecory1]

This video did more to teach me than I thought possible. Thanks to it, I just realized there was a fatal error in the the game I'm currently workign on and now I have the tools to fix. XD

[@cyncynshop]

Thank you for this quality video. I like the way you start the video and present your points. I'm making my points as I listen to your video (changing it as later points show up). Pillars of Eternity is my first cRPGs so I am prone to strong bias. -PoE uses a pretty old D&D system where Might IS the universal stat for damage, so I find your point about using the definition of Might really....insignificant and you talked about it waaay too long. To put it in a joking tone: All they did is follow traditional D&D stats, sheesh dude, lay off! (Plus Might gives versatility to builds, I can make a melee mage, ranged paladin, battle priest thanks to this stat.) -The Shadowrun opening seemed like a graphic novel opening that quickly puts the characters into action. I like that. But it assumes that your character had established the relationship in this world and to the kind of player who follows the main plot, its great. *Deep breath.* However, it should be noted that Pillars want you to create YOUR character complete with a backstory. You can be from an aristocrat to a slave. You are not important, you are a nobody, and there are multiple watchers in the world and you just happen to be one of them who's confused and affected by your abilities. Pillars got so much setting, backstory, and history that it demand your understanding of the world to engross yourself. And the entire game is made with this idea that you roleplay with your character in mind. Therefore leaving a blank. Unlike Skyrim, the books and notes are fundamental to the world building and what characters say. Just as you don't care because you don't understand what they're referencing or why they care, the plot wouldn't bother responding to you. The very first thing I realized upon landing on Gilded Vale is that how much this world is scarred from war and the mystery of the current events happening in this world. -How I see it in a serious roleplaying perspective, in Shadowrun you are bound by your initial revenge plot and your set social standing. While PoE lets your motivations to be your own making, let's you shape your character as you go. -Regrettably, PoE sidequest lack creative options beyond the usual [>kill him >sure >(sarcastic)sure >lie >No >fuck no] options. But I find most of your PoE criticisms on the gameplay came down to preference and a spontaneous response to archaic designs. Less thought out and actual understanding. (To be fair, you haven't got all day to explain everything, especially on a game you care less about.) If you reach the end, bravo. If you didn't, understandable. Good day, sir.

[@lucaa420]

What's your take on Mount & Blade?

[@Vante21]

I'd love to see you analyze, and do an overview of divinity original sin or when the second one when it's released.

[@seanlopez5149]

Have to say, man. Been watching your videos over the last few days...and I love em. Great perspective on things. I, too, am a huge RPG fan and have been mourning the...death? Laziness? that has been finding its way into this category games. After watching this video I downloaded the Shadowrun DF for android. Love it. A return to form, and also fresh. Love the tactical approach to combat. Love the story and characters. We need to make a comeback to the art of storytelling...my god, please. Anyway, you earned a like and subscribe from me. Keep it up, bro!

[@HarmonBlues]

Nothing filled me with joy as much as the golden age of the Half-Life 1 and Neverwinter Nights 1 modding communities. Hadn't had as much fun before or since that awesome period.

[@StratEdgyProductions]

Neverwinter Nights was my jam. I was able to build all those fantasy worlds I had been dreaming up, and scripting was intuitive. I miss that game. Even bought it a few years back, only to be disappointed that the servers shut down. :(

[@Radamor]

To be honest I prefered PoE to Shadowrun 'cause of same reasons. Even if PoE had been declared as something retro it got few new concepts. It was new journey. I felt familiar but not fully. I have an impression that there's a lot of nostalgic feeling in this video and personal needs. Like the introduction that, in your opinion, should be optional. In mine it shouldn't. In mine opinion game decides how it will attack a player with the story.

[@mawillix2018]

Agreed.

[@Soldier4USA2005]

This is some seriously high quality stuff, dude. Keep it up!!!

[@dispnin]

You can turn off the signposting in Pillars of Eternity and make it so that your skill/reputation check options blend in with the other options.

[@moanguspickard249]

I didnt like Pillars because of info dumps. Let me get into the story slowly. Dont tell me about biuwac before, tell me after. Let me learn from raiders that stones are sacred after ive wondered why are those stones here. Connect knowledge and experience! Pillars lacked immediate conflict and urgency. Dragon age Origins is a great game that introduces its concepts slowly and at great pace. Ill have to replay pillars before i play 2, which i dont look forward to as my first hunter run bored me the hell out and only alotb or that priest had actual spells and were active in combat. I get it that hunters dont have spells but games like wow made hunters interesting.

[@MrCharles7994]

You're missing one of the main differences between Pillars and Shadowrun. Shadowrun, for all that it's got this weird futuristic setting, is *familiar* . At least, the game is meant to be evoking things that make *sense* to use. For instance, we have elves, we have dwarves, we have orcs, we have trolls. This setting is earth. We know what guns are. We even recognize the tech. The Shadowrun setting is designed to be weird in small ways, but the vast majority fits what you know. Even such things as Cyber Samurai are intuitively obvious; it's a samurai who uses cybernetics. We even know, intuitively, what "the matrix" or "cybernetics" are. Shadowrun *embraces* tropes. It familiarizes and ingratiates itself with you *through* tropes. This is one of it's main strengths. Thus, the game can just throw stuff at you and let you *accept* it. "Here, you're a troll, here is something big to swing, the setting is cyberpunk, *go* ". Pillars *defies* conventional classifications and descriptions. Our Hobbits are named Orlons. A lot of them are slaves, but some of them are like Druids, but that's shallow in and of itself. Not all of the Druids are Hobbits, not all of the Hobbits are Druids, neither is *called* that, and also here are a bunch of Gods (one of whom is dead) and some isometric art. Also, you're a watcher, everyone sort of knows what that is, go get 'em tiger. Pillars emphasizes how strange the world is. How the setting isn't normal. Things are made subtly alien, different, *odd* . The writing in the first part is exposition heavy to give you something to *ground* yourself on, and because it has to be, to a degree. You need to be able to ask "what the fuck as these ruins? Why can't I go in them? Why the fuck are these people attacking? What the fuck is a watcher?" The start is slow because you're easing yourself in. Pillars has *great* strength once you've done that. It's a great game starting about an hour or two in-and it keeps getting better as you approach the end. Characters become stronger, the plot more involved, and quests more varied. The beginning is full of world building and setting up the plot. The payoff is later. Now, this isn't to say that the start is perfect, or even *good* . It was designed in a certain way because they way is safe. I'd argue that Baldurs Gate 2 is actually a perfect analogy, because the start of that game isn't great either. The game becomes great in the second act; the first is an almost ugly slog. Nostalgia may hide that, but sitting through the first dungeon is the main limiter on me trying a new playthrough. However games like Tyranny defy this. Your character clearly knows things you don't, and gets the opportunity to express that. He rarely asks stupid questions; he might directly inquire to someone about something basic, but he usually gets the opportunity to respond in a way that shows that he has knowledge of his own as well. He has a past which is chosen but not controlled by the player (with some variation), but he has a *personality* that is fundamentally player driven, and shows depending on the path you take through the game. It's not as bizarre and varied a world as Pillars, but it's got a lot of background *you* lack, and rapidly pick up on. And you virtually never have to sit through a talk with mister exposition. It does this by giving you voluntary mouse over text that you can use to learn things your character knows, and giving you an in depth character creation that lets you ease your way into the world. It's pacing also helps; a series of fever pitches interspersed with more gentle plateaus, where the results and meaning of your actions become clear, embodied by, quite literally, nice fireside chats with the Archon of Justice and consequences. You are thrown into the world, allowed to make your mark on it, and then left to figure out what the heck is really happening after. It's glorious. KOTOR 2 also did something similar, using the opening area to thrust you into the setting and story violently, and allowing your own dialogue choices-even if you didn't pick them-to inform the player. It took a small portion of control away from you in the process, making the exile into a character distinct from you who you still influenced; hence it was more of an action RPG. Like the Mass Effect series was, in the moments when it was doing things right. To me this is embodied when you pick Revans gender-your character clearly knows this *other* character, even if you as a player are 100% lost. Basically, what I'm saying is that while you're complaint is valid, Shadowrun has an easier time of it because it can fall back on the fact that it's setting is basically a giant trope, whereas Pillars has to be more careful. Expecting the same quality opening actually requires significantly *better* writing out of Pillars than Shadowrun for an equal end quality.

[@JarlFrank]

The problem I have with Pillars of Eternity is that the setting pretends to be alien and interesting, but it actually isn't. There's humans and elves and dwarves, but they work differently to those in other settings... but they're still humans and elves and dwarves. They're familiar but work in unfamiliar ways. Why not inventing your own races that aren't elves and dwarves then? If you put in elves and dwarves but make them work differently from how they usually work, it just confuses players without actually adding anything to the game. Elder Scrolls has the Khajiit and Argonians. Wizardry had the Wookie-like Mooks. The recently released Grimoire: Heralds of the Winged Exemplar has a race that has a giant eyeball for a head. How cool is that! Pillars has... elves and dwarves and hobbits with different names and slightly different stats than they'd have in other games. Not very fascinating, is it? It forces the player to learn new rules, but it doesn't give them the wow-effect of encountering something they've never seen before. They might be called Orlons and they don't have hairy feet, but they're essentially still hobbits, and hobbits are familiar. But since they're slightly different from hobbits in LotR and D&D, the player has to forget the things he knows about hobbits and learn the specific rules of that race applying to this particular game. It's MORE effort than learning the rules of a new race from scratch, like weird eyeball-headed things with a talent for psionics, or four-armed insects who can quadruple-wield weapons, because it requires you to throw your existing image overboard and replace it with something new, while the unusual races I just mentioned are easier to learn because you discover them for the first time and they will seem special to you. Hobbits with a different name and slightly different characteristics won't feel special. They're just the same old familiar high fantasy race that you've seen a dozen times before, the differences aren't significant enough to make them inherently interesting. Everything about Pillars is like that. It doesn't use the common fantasy trope names, but it sure uses the tropes. There are no kobolds or goblins, but some of the first enemies you encounter are pretty much just a reskin of the generic kobold or goblin. They have a different name, but there's nothing about them that sets them apart from generic kobolds or goblins, not visually, not from a gameplay perspective (they're small weak hostile creatures that tend to attack in groups... just like kobolds and goblins!), and not from a lore perspective either. Using different names for generic fantasy races *that work just the same way as the generic race they were inspired by* adds additional required effort for the player with zero payoff for that effort. The player has to learn that Blahblahs are this world's equivalent of goblins, and when NPCs mention Blahblahs in a dialogue he has to remember: "What were those things supposed to be? Oh, right, they're those goblin-like creatures!" What does this simple renaming of a tropey creature add to the game? Nothing at all. It's still as generic as it gets for high fantasy. And despite all its claims of being original and avoiding fantasy tropes, everything I encountered in Pillars felt like pure tropey high fantasy cliches to me. There wasn't anything truly interesting, truly fresh, truly alien. I played a lot of RPGs in my time, and Pillars felt just as generic to me as Baldur's Gate 1 did, just typical generic Forgotten Realms high fantasy. Arcanum, a game that takes a generic elves-and-dwarves fantasy setting and pushes it into the industrial revolution, felt way fresher and more interesting than Pillars despite using generic and familiar races that work as expected, because it actually does some interesting non-generic things with its setting. It had steam engines and large Victorian cities with railway lines and newspaper offices, and mages are prohibited from riding the train because in this world, magic interferes with technology and causes it to malfunction. Wow, how cool is that? Morrowind throws us into an alien, unfamiliar world with a dormant volcano at its center and most of its landmass covered in ash and the predominant vegetation being giant tree-sized mushrooms, and there are weapons made of glass and armors made of the chitin shells of giant insects... what a world to explore! Planescape Torment uses classic D&D rules and everyone knows what the stats and skills do, no weird stuff like "Might" being important for wizards, and while the systems are generic and familiar, nothing about the content is. You're a dreadlocked dude with amnesia who happens to be immortal, the first companion you get is a floating skull, and you'll be confronted by concepts like truth being shaped by what people believe, portals potentially appearing everywhere, and the "rule of three" while you explore the weird setting of Planescape. Each of those games uses familiar concepts to get the player started. The stats and skills work just the way we're used to: if you're familiar with RPGs, you can create a character without having to read a manual first to make sure which stats do what. Strength is for fighters. Willpower is for wizards. It works like we expect it to work. No surprises there. But once your character is created and the game starts, you're in for some amazing discoveries as you are confronted with more and more unfamiliar and unexpected things. Pillars is the exact opposite of that: its system switches up the way stats work and makes the player, even if he is familiar with RPGs, scratch his head while he reads the tooltips and tries to figure out what all those stats actually do. It re-names familiar fantasy races and makes the player scratch his head even more as he tries to figure out what all these races with the strange names are like. But then, this unfamiliarity wears off as the player progresses in the game. He realizes that all these differently-named things are just equivalents of generic fantasy races and concepts. Visually, the environments and items and creatures look so familiar, it might be set right at the Sword Coast. No steam trains, mushroom trees or floating skulls to be found here! Pillars pretends not to be generic, but ends up being so anyway. Except that the player has to familiarize himself with unfamiliar names and words, only to realize that the actual essence of all these strangely named things is exactly the same as it is with the old familiar concepts of high fantasy. The world of Pillars is just Forgotten Realms with different words for things.

[@draco18s]

I can't give two shits about a unique setting if the story doesn't draw me in. Even with your dissertation here I'm left thinking. "Ok, so Pillars of Eternity just...is." That is, it exists, it is its own thing, but it doesn't involve me. I don't care that it defies tropes, subverts my expectations. It isn't giving me any reason to *care.*

[@df6597]

I agree with the previous responses. While the game does get better after setting aside all the irritating little things they put in there that add nothing, I didn't finish it. It got boring and the story wasn't compelling enough to keep going with it. I liked the addition of a keep, that was novel.

[@cyaegha293]

what?

[@wjmackenzie955]

*"The writing in the first part is exposition heavy to give you something to ground yourself on"* It is still exposition. The excuse could be 100% valid, with citations and a hundred scientists backing it up... but the writing sin will still be a writing sin

[@robertnewman4854]

Mark my words, your channel's gonna get real big, real soon.

[@StratEdgyProductions]

Thanks for the compliment. I love the thought of this channel getting big. Working on an animated video that is based on a short story I wrote. Hope that is as well received as these other videos.

[@ninvusoogoar6098]

i dont wana be that guy but, your channel wont get big. it will linger on for a little bit but many people will realize your criticism's are obviously biased and are nothing more than subjective judgements. also if you think shadowrun was not a brainless or easy game then you are a blind fanboy of the series as you seem to be.

[@jetaddict420]

@@ninvusoogoar6098 he went big lmao

[@ninvusoogoar6098]

@@jetaddict420 100K ish subs is not big you know....

[@supajasiu]

We gonna get a game by game discussion of the Shadowrun plot ( all of them) ? I'd love to hear your take on Dragonfall Returns and Hong Kong - and how they tie in to unmasking the true villain of the series. The Noodle Extruder.

[@ElectroMagneticJosh]

I enjoyed PoE but didn't love it. This video articulated the issue that I could never quite put my finger on. Often using a simple to understand goal (escape from X, find item Y, go to location Z) provides the initial impetus to play/learn the game. When this goal is achieved (or subverted) is the perfect time to introduce "the real story" which will drive the rest of the game forward. Your comparison between these two games highlights that importance. Even games which trade in obscurantism can use this. Dark Souls, for example, starts with the object of escaping the asylum to motivate the player forward.

[@StratEdgyProductions]

Yup. Initial motivation is the strongest motivator pushing a player forward. You have to remember that you are asking a person to give up over 20 hours of their life on something. Show them why they would do that early on, and you have a better chance keeping them throughout.

[@monstergelo1072]

aren't the sign-posts can be disabled?

[@wheeloftimem8481]

Yes it can. It should be disabled by default.

[@OtsukaOde]

Dude, your experience on both games mirrors mine exactly. Exept that I haven't even played myself past that first village on Pillars. And I was SO exited about that game before I bought it. I thought too that why my character now should do anything. I got out of the cave alive, to the town, so I acoplished the the thing I wanted, right.. I have started a new character almost a dozen times by now. Sometimes I end the game on the caves. Most of the times in the town... Newer played past it... Not proud of it mind you. I really wanted to like this game. And I think to myself all the time. The next summer vacotion I'm gonna finally paly it trough :)

[@jdm2626]

This video basically sums up how I felt when playing Pillars of Eternity.

[@SeremPoStanovima]

Biggest plus for me in PoE was story pace, I guess I was sick of all those RPG stories that start with a bang. Just the thing that when I started poe, I really enjoyed fact that for first few hours you don't have some big bang, but slowly start to dive in it.

[@yugen]

Agreed.

[@kasane1337]

Having everyone die around me due to some dark magic was a bit of a big bang though.

[@TheBrazilRules]

Yeah. I don't understand the lack of wonder to explore the world for itself instead of being thrown into an epic journey from the bat.

[@aratherdrunkmedic8470]

I love this review, can't wait to do my own try at comparing the new XCOM and the old one.

[@Hell_O7]

I would love seeing more of this kind of comparison, or heck, even just a video about writing for Shadowrun kinda similar to what you did for Rocky. Hope this gets more popular, I'm sure many more people would love to hear about this.

[@casualhardcore2271]

Just found your channel this morning. Almost mirrors a huge chunk of my upbringing, from the SR to George Carlin. Best of luck and Keep it up man.

[@pocketbacon9636]

So, did you play all the way through PoE? Cuz this sounds like a review of just the first two hours of a 100+ hour game.

[@ratzzz9343]

The comparison is between opening scenes, not the game as a whole.

[@yugen]

"The comparison is between opening scenes, not the game as a whole" - and is that a fair comparison? Especially considering any given story is going to have it's own unique pacing and tempo?

[@templarkiller2926]

Yes, it is a fair comparison, I haven't beaten Dragon Age Inquisition and don't plan to because it is just not an interesting story and the pacing is horrendous, a games opening setting is extremely important

[@suspectedcrab]

Boring fucking story. Tyranny lasted longer and was more interesting. The soundtrack tries really hard to be Baldur's Gate.

[@GrimCitadel]

Luvbacon man just stfu PoE really bad cos every choice you make - doesn't change endings - also choices not changing gameplay too

[@Rheinguard]

You quit PoE after 4 hours? What?!

[@tatuira93]

Boy, you didn't pay attention to a single thing the entire game did you? Did you even read the dialogue or just aggressively tapped space bar?

[@yugen]

Watch Lorerunner's "Ruminations" on Pillars for a strong counter to your input.

[@cata112233]

@Nikeimizhong Game's not for everyone...You have to be literate to actually enjoy it :^)

[@supacure4614]

Hey man, great video! around 29:00 you talk about "this game" which is clearly referring to pillars, but you have Shadowrun on the Screen. In my opinion perhaps you should have the videogame that you're talking about visible! Once again, great video and have a good one!

[@southernfriedmedia3968]

for what its worth, I bought both of these game over a summer sale this year. last week I beat Shadowrun Dragonfall and had a pretty good time during that. Now im on Pillars of Eternity and I am pretty involved with this game too. I like them both to be honest, Pillars is complex and Lore rich.

[@CaronDriel]

Who names their character Void-Knight? Strat-EDGY Productions is a more accurate name than I thought. ;p

[@Robert399]

It's an alias for a Shadowrunner. It's not what I'd choose but it's not out of place for the setting.

[@CaronDriel]

@@Robert399 Hm. Good to know. Thank you.

[@557deadpool]

Fuck off

[@Wlerin48]

You answered your main question before you even asked it. You like cyberpunk, and especially Shadowrun.

[@StratEdgyProductions]

I like both. That's why I like Shadowrun's setting. The story on the other hand is just much better paced than PoE's.

[@dagonofthedepths]

Have to say I had the opposite reaction with character creation when I started shadowrun returns. That was so many stats thrown at me and some of the stuff seemed counter intuitive. Like my first idea was to make a gun focused tank guy but I figured I needed bio tech because that makes med kits work better but that means need intelligence and biotech to make it work. Then I figured charming rigger but even with that its a lot of karma dumped just to get that stat up to 4 even. I wasn't even sure I should put anything into body because I wasn't sure when I would get points because of how the karma system works. In comparison PoE just made me think might = all damage buff which is weird from a story telling stand point but a game mechanic it's more straight forward.

[@DanielMartinez-fn7qe]

You are doing great work with these videos. Keep it up man

[@ElBlargho]

Just so ya know, in PoE you can disable the dialogue choice signposting in the options menu, as well as many other immersion-related things. That being said, many of the options seem to rely on this signposting, because often the actual words you say aren't all that indicative of which stat is being checked. Not all the time, but often. I too went for a giant break between starting the game and finishing it. The beginning is mediocre at best, for hours and hours. Once I picked it up again, only pedigree and Baldur's Gate nostalgia kept me going until I was invested in the game itself, and even then I resented the huge emphasis on enemy numbers instead of complex elites. The combat is deep and very micromanage-y on hard, though, especially with several casters in the party. Only when I was overleveled for a zone could I ever right-click and forget.

[@linkno1]

I wouldn't want the signposting off entirely, I just wouldn't want to be shown what the 'roll' would be for a stat since as he says, the highest number is then obviously the correct answer. I really don't know why you would bother putting the numbers there in the first place, especially since if there's multiple options for the same stat you're never realistically going to pick the lowest number on purpose. Being told the stat being checked however isn't a bad thing. The difference between actual pen and paper RPG's and games taking influence from them is that in D&D, I can tell the DM that I'm doing something and if it's not clear to one of us we can come to an agreement on what kind of stat check it would be. In a video game I've basically got to hope that the developer was thinking the same thing I am at that point in the game, I can't change the games mind as to why that option looks like a 'strength' check to me, it's just clearer to tell me it's a 'strength check' in brackets than make me feel cheated afterwards when it turned out to be intellect.

[@1InVader1]

As far as story goes, PoE is really just Ghost Whisperer - the video game. Lame af. The prologue was probably the best part, because that's when shit was actually going down, just like in Shadowrun. The mechanics were somewhat alright though. They tried to take BG2's DnD 3.5 mechanics and make them more fluid. I liked the fact that they kept it real-time. Problem was that on higher difficulties the mechanics were incredibly unbalanced. I had to put fcking heavy on everyone - mages and priests too - otherwise they would die instantly. The lighter armor/clothing is supposed to give them faster spellcasting and attack rate and stuff like that, but it's not worth it at all. More to the point, the warriors don't know how to block enemies!!! You can't block a door with your tank. The enemies just walk past them and slay your spellcasters and rangers. And how the fuck is it possible that enemies are able to completely dodge AoE spells? How do you dodge something that's fcking everywhere around you?! Completely moronic mechanic. The devs (and people in the comments here too) talk about 100+h long game. Then I see a 15 level deep dungeon below my keep and I feel like my intelligence was just insulted. Final nail in the coffin? The game encourages creating your own party out of hired mercenaries, rather than taking people with you which you meet along your journey. A game like this should give you a priest right away, but it doesn't. First time I played I actually missed the guy at Magrath fork, because I went east instead, because that's where the quests sent me. By the time I found him, I had a high level priest mercenary. who was way better than him. This is shit by design! In the end this game is not bad, it's just average. It's the dev's fault for oversellling it to me. I was promised BG2. What I got was more like BG1 (which wasn't very good) crossed with Skyirm (which is really just a sandbox game, not an RPG).

[@StoneskullYT]

i played both these games at the same time some years ago, never finished either of them, probably 3-4 hours each, but i remember vividly everything from the opening of Shadowrun and only just remembered the keep thing in Pillars when you mentioned it at the end. good video.

[@TheRixtah1]

I love how during your cuts to POE you played the Skyrim loading screen soundtrack to further emphasize how the prologue of the game makes you wait for anything interesting to happen.

[@Jimmious]

The combat analysis of PoE is blatantly wrong.

[@o.toledo8536]

The entire analysis of PoE is completely wrong.

[@jimmy-breeze]

do either of you care to clarify on that statement or are you just going to say hes wrong and leave without backing it up

[@aquamarinerose5405]

@@jimmy-breeze I'd like to say I agree, if you're going to try ot say something like "It's blatantly wrong" you should try to go into more detail.

[@dukejorgas3693]

I would like to point out that he set the difficulty of PoE to easy, and then complained that it was too easy. You might not like the style of Real Time with Pause, but the game when played on Normal, and especially after the tutorial, are much harder than he made them out to be.

[@AgentSapphire]

My only nitpick is that you didn't transition to the fact you are showing stuff from Dragonfall. Since Returns had a lot of the same problems you're pointing out in Pillars of Eternity. At least in the beginning. TBH tho I almost think its not fair to compare these two games since the actual creator of shadowrun worked on the shadowrun games and has a lot more storytelling experience, thereby lending a much higher degree of quality in that regard. Character creation/interface/story delivery objections are absolutely legit though. All in all I think this is a really spot-on analysis.

[@StratEdgyProductions]

Thanks a lot. Always room for improvement in my videos.

[@AgentSapphire]

You're most certainly welcome. I'm glad I could put my two cents in :3

[@PhyreI3ird]

Glad someone mentioned it months before I could x3

[@kereminde]

Going to note, in 'Dragonfall', the second Shadowrun game by Harebrained? It's possible to talk down a villain at the end. I won't spoil, but it's VERY hard to do and requires a lot of knowledge to be able to sustain the case for "this is a bad idea, please stop". It requires keeping track of things during the game, and managing to piece things out of the conversation to argue it back against the speaker. It's thrilling - and sure, there's a final boss still but... this was done. Not to mention there were a few other places were talking things out was more beneficial than "shoot first, and maybe ask questions".

[@samb5963]

Nice video! It's given me quite a bit to think about. I was wondering, have you by any chance played Pyre, or any of the other two games by Supergiant? I'd love to hear your thoughts on them!

[@Ravnesss]

MIGHT EFFECTS MY MAGIC DAMAGE? AHHH CANT COMPREHENDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[@zoltanormosi5617]

That's why most wizards in Fairy Tail are buff in one way or another. :'D

[@mohredlou]

I like your videos. But I don't agree with you on this one.

[@StratEdgyProductions]

Can you expand on what you disagree on?

[@mohredlou]

I find the the stats very well designed. The story is good not great but enjoyable. The third act is a bit of a drag. And hey I love shadowrun series it's just that i think that pillars is the better game here.

[@StratEdgyProductions]

Admittedly I haven't played enough of Pillars to get a good feel for the story. I played through Rodricks castle, got to the catacombs and triggered the next story event with the masked dudes down there, but I find myself still without motivation to play, which is a shame because the game play is actually really good once you get into some of the more structured battles. I'm thinking I might try Tyranny before Torment: Tides of Numenera releases.

[@mohredlou]

Maybe do a let's play kind of thing with tyranny, where you can comment on the game while playing ;)

[@StratEdgyProductions]

So, I just started playing Tyranny, and whole-lee-shit. This is a fantastic game.

[@NakedLeonard]

The new games were my first introduction to the shadowrun universe and I waa really impressed. Nice small stories that are really quite interesting and engrossing. Makes me wish my friends had played the original pen and paper game in high school.

[@AndyMathay]

Really dig your channel. Thanks for uploading I love both of these games (all of the recent Shadowruns for that matter). Pillars though, as you said, does start slow (as does Baldur's Gate-wandering around Candlekeep is annoying, in my opinion-I also kind of hate the first act). The big moment of the introduction doesn't happen until well after the caravan scene but why you're where you are when you are is completely contingent upon the separation from the caravan-the uncertainty is part of the story for better or worse (at least initially). Shadowrun: Dragonfall, on the other hand, back loads the lion's share of the dialogue other than what you get for the run-which is great and driving. Between runs, there's a ton of talking which I love but it does slow way down then (which is what I would expect and would want after getting shot at a ton). I hope that you finished PoE! Would really enjoy hearing your analysis of The White March and the rest of the game. (Also, the spell casting does get a lot more complex-and pretty fun, I feel.) Pillars ends up delivering a lot as far as plot-I think the one thing I'm always left wanting more of with the Shadowrun games is more filler, more strange details, people to chat with-just generally more. Shadowrun doesn't attempt to follow in the footsteps of BG though which makes it different animal. But man, I say all of this and I have to admit that on my first playthrough of PoE, I stopped playing too. I think by trying to make everything uncertain for you, "The Watcher", it inadvertently obscures too much at first. It does feel like a bit of hard sell to tell people that they need to get to Act II in order for things to pick-up. Like I said, digging the channel. Looking forward to going through more videos!

[@SuperDoggy99]

I couldn't agree more. I've tried playing through PoE several times, and I just can't get to the end. It's a boring slog of bad writing, bad graphics, and a bad combat system. SRR was a breath of fresh air when it was released, and on subsequent playthroughs has been fantastic to experience again.

[@FearTheLivingDFG]

Hard to take this video serious when you get the basic information at the start of Pillars wrong. The water is for tea to make with the springberries that will help calm your stomach more quickly. The caravan didn't "break down" the road was blocked by a fallen tree and they chose to stop because of that along with your character being ill. There is also the possibility of a biawac (A soul wrenching storm) that could prey on the caravan as they are known to appear in the area, so the ruins make for a place to take shelter if one happens by. (Which of course one does and the ruins provide shelter). On top of that you obviously have you preferred game with Shadowrun by presenting it with a cinematic like narration all the while walking into the Pillars portion with a condescending demeanor. You make some valid points but some just come off very spiteful and less about deconstructing the games and more so putting one down because it had more buzz surrounding it than Shadowrun did. Keep in mind I have no real love for either game only recently started playing Pillars after recently playing through Baldur's Gate and wanting something similar play so I have no qualms about people pointing out its flaws.

[@adrianmynarczyk4560]

The point was, pillars gave a lot of useless info in a garbage way, so him getting info wrong is kinda on the game's writing there. The spite and condescesing tone does come from somewhere my dude, it's not like you want to hate the game you bought in a genre you like...

[@FearTheLivingDFG]

@@adrianmynarczyk4560 To be honest dude you're commenting on a 3 year old comment. I have no idea the context for any of this anymore and I don't really have an interest in said context at this point anyways so I'll just take your word for it.

[@realname8362]

@@FearTheLivingDFG he was wrong anyway, the "I misunderstood basic situation stuff" is definitely not on the game. The intro shit about the storms and the reason the caravan stopped wasn't hard to figure out, your original post was completely accurate.

[@rupertmcbutters1748]

Your Pillars complaints ring true. Even though your character technically can’t “just settle down,” it certainly feels that way as you rebuild a rooted keep to complement a sedentary lifestyle instead of feeling motivated to find Thaos and undo your awakening. You’re just progressing for its own sake as the player, and your character is progressing because they don’t want to go crazy even though that threat isn’t reinforced after Maerwald in act 1 (I guess Aloth and… Maneha, the weakest companion, show examples of awakening problems similar to your own character’s, but that’s as threatening as it gets). It’s hard for the player to feel motivated like the character they’re playing because this sense of exploration completely overshadows the story. You said that the devs assumed that the setting was the story. For me that was true, but it’s not an excuse for it. The Hollowborn Crisis is captivating, but it feels weird when you stumble almost randomly into the cause of it. Though it’s not actually random, it certainly feels that way since you’re just going to a ruin that you heard the bad guys were visiting. Before you know it you’ve solved the Legacy. Then the game’s third act questions your character’s views regarding the game’s themes - the meat and potatoes - and you come to a conclusion based on the compelling paradox of religion’s boons and curses which you’ve been witnessing over the course of “the story.” I want to build character arcs around that alone. I want to have hollowborn kids with it and Eothas. I freaking love the game anyway.

[@FelixDaleth]

Pillars is a slow, subtle, very low-key but also extremely engrossing atmospheric ride, Dragonfall is a tight, sharp, focused thriller. Diametrically opposite. I love them both to death (Dragonfall is one of very few games where I have 100% Steam achievements), but PoE is clearly one of those love it or hate it titles, its mood and presentation either resonate with you or they don't. It did with me. I think with companion quests they touched upon themes you don't normally see in video games. The amount of times the game invited introspection by giving me options where I had to stop and think really hard on 'what would my character do and what is the right thing to do in this case in general ' was insane compared to other contemporary games, opportunities to really roleplay your character are all there in abundance, and the creativity combat allows is obscene. And the world... I think they nailed it, it's oozing with almost palpable sense of gloom, fitting for a nation on the brink of collapse due to a cruel and merciless affliction. It's not without flaws of course. They failed to convey the sense of urgency or importance of the main quest. (It's not 'Skyrimitis' - you have to figure out what's going on with you before you go insane. And as you go along you realize that you might be connected to the curse that struck Dyrwood. So the elements are there, the execution failed.) 3rd act was clearly rushed and some of the things that happen in it are bizarre. Even after 340 hours in I didn't learn to appreciate mages with their restricted spell use, letting them tag along only for serious encounters, combat in general can feel like a chore and a slog. But then the vibe Pillars has is absolutely unique, and it will probably stay that way for a while, as Obsidian would most likely overreact with Deadfire making it more 'cheerful and upbeat'. I'll definitely be returning to Pillars in the future for the sense of catharsis scripted interactions and dialogues following major quests give me.

[@izaakfewton7536]

Preach! Preach! Preach dude! Words of cyber-wisdom for my ears...

[@thomassinclair7228]

I really appreciate this video. Im new to CRPGs and was very bored by pillars. I was thinking about giving up on the genre then I watched this video and picked dragonfall up for 4 bucks and now I can’t stop playing. Thanks!

[@oliviawilliams6204]

Thomas Sinclair happy you like it

[@Eunostos]

Odema struck me as warm an interesting and reminded me of people in my life, it made the tone shift from comforting and familiar to the attack and danger resonate strongly. Seeing him described as a generic cypher was a bit of a shock - His impact clearly changes significantly depending on such resonance. :o Also... you can turn off the optional stat flagging of conversation choices and hide the ones you can't use. (Though I prefer them on) Still this has sold me on shadowrun, which I haven't so much as been curious about previously. I really do like seeing discovery integrated as well as you describe (the true draw of Souls, to me).

[@Crowley9]

I agree with you about showing skill checks in dialogue options. In New Vegas I got to the end of Lonesome Road and decided to talk down Ulysses based on what I had learned from the journal recordings he left behind. I suddenly found myself far more invested in the conversation than ever before. I had to figure out the correct thing to say to him based purely on my own knowledge and judgment. So following up from that, I decided to look into modding the game and see if I could hide the skill checks in dialogue while still retaining them in under the hood mechanics. That is actually a very simple thing to do. So, shameless self promotion here, I now have a mod for that which I am in the middle of testing.

[@Adrian.Christ]

I've started playing PoE recently after hearing how it was such an amazing rpg for 2 years. I'm only 5ish hours in, but I'm already bored to tears. So far it has just been a bunch of bland exposition setting up a world that I just can't seem to give a shit about. "it starts slow" isn't an excuse for boring writing either. Many stories unfold at a slow pace, while still being interesting early on. I'm going to give the game a little longer before I completely write it off though, hopefully it gets better

[@oliviawilliams6204]

Sadly that’s my experience too

[@FilippeBodart]

Dude, when you say that you can leave your character hitting an enemy and then comeback later either you're lying or you haven't past the first city yet. You're saying so much stuff that IS NOT FREAKING TRUTH. You've said, and i'll quote :"... a well timed magic missile can interrupt his cast and swing the whole encounter in your way very quickly...", PoE has a mechanic that has the name of INTERRUPT, that is used to INTERRUPT spell and actions. I must say, you CLEARLY are making a partial review, taking sides, and you CLEARLY didn't play more than an hour of pillars.

[@mawillix2018]

Well from some of his comments, it's clear that he has played more than an hour (a messurement of time). But I can agree that it's also clear he never got far into it, and was generally bad at the game, seemingly never giving it a second try.

[@MrElvisNilsson]

Think you hinted at one of the main problems a lot of players have with PoE and D&D rules in general: "...a well timed magic missile can interrupt..." the key word there is "CAN" when many of us think it should be "WILL" Think backgammon vs. chess. Both are fine games. But most prefer chess.

[@diegomaynez1425]

I have to agree with strat in the boring part, the gameplay was fine,actually very good but kind of slow,but daaaam the story was boring. Tyranny is a masterpiece compared to pillars.

[@aquamarinerose5405]

@@diegomaynez1425 Of course I'd note more generally that.. I haven't played pillars but it seems that it never really gave him the motivation to keep going. Though it does seem ironic that the man who talked so much about people not giving games a second chance over slow introductions, he then ended up not being able to find the motivation to keep going after a slow, boring, generic introduction. However, I WOULD say that it's still a good example of the fact that you really need to tell players what about your game is interesting if you want them to play it. Defending PoE whilst bashing shadowrun a bit myself though. The second I heard the sniper ask who's second in command and putting the PC in charge I thought "Oh she's gonna die"

[@DezorianGuy]

Thanks for your rather sophisticated opinion about two of the greatest RPGs. I never looked at it from that perspective and also never played shadow run yet. That will be my next big project.

[@kasane1337]

I couldn't find anything by searching, so could someone explain what the "Pick 20"-system is supposed to be? And if by that you mean "You've got 20 points to spend on different attributes", isn't that exactly the same thing as the Karma in Shadowrun?

[@deraal86]

haha, when I saw the title and the image, I was sure you would bash Shadowrun and praise POE, like most people. glad I was wrong.

[@Vladimirwlr1234]

PoE is the epitome of "tell, don't show".

[@failurestates]

What’s the name of the song in the end of your videos? I’ve heard it other places too and I can’t figure out what it is

[@Sunomis]

This could actually make my own scenarios much better. Thanks ;)

[@lordshaodeus1021]

I felt the exact same way when playing Pillars of Eternity, it was really forgettable to me and a chore to play

[@skipgoose4426]

It's just, too tiresome I guess.... I want to enjoy the game but there's just sooooo much reading

[@lordshaodeus1021]

It's not that I dislike reading, I do like reading when it's interesting. It's more that the dialogue and the content was uninteresting and forgettable. I absolutely did not feel immersed in the world and didn't care for the writing style either

[@andywang2483]

aboomination the game starts slow, but it have some amazing twists and story. Still remember the first first time you talk to your sister, mind blowing

[@kaurnikita]

Opted out at the first battle comparisons. You compared a fight against a wolf with a couple of lvl 1 characters to a fight against a presumably high level mage. You say you were confused by the stats that are all abundantly explained, like might increasing the damage of spells while intelligence affecting aoe and duration. No mention of the way background choices for your character open different dialogue angles later on in the game. And the cheapest way of comparing two things - being all suave and romantic in one segment, while describing the other with blunt condescending remarks​, throwing in an occasional "whatever". I'll praise the new shadow run games all day long alongside you, but your remarks on PoE are way off the mark.

[@StratEdgyProductions]

"Opted out at the first battle comparisons. You compared a fight against a wolf with a couple of lvl 1 characters to a fight against a presumably high level mage." I actually compared the way the game opens. Just because the game opens with a lame battle doesn't mean the comparison isn't fair. It's literally the entire point. I am comparing the way two games handle their opening moments. "No mention of the way background choices for your character open different dialogue angles later on in the game." This was a comparison video about the way the game opens... Not the way the game is 5 hours into it. "And the cheapest way of comparing two things - being all suave and romantic in one segment, while describing the other with blunt condescending remarks​, throwing in an occasional "whatever"." If the PoE game did anything in the first hour or even the first two or so hours to impress me, I would have been all over it. Hence my absolute fanboy-esque love for Tyranny which I did a whole video on. I'm not biased. I literally cannot force my way through PoE due to their inability to hook me in with any of the gameplay, or story elements on display.

[@kaurnikita]

Strat-Edgy Productions man, I get the point - you're not in the thick of it from the start in PoE, or at any point for that matter. But you are talking about things that have nothing to do with narrative structure. Like saying it took too long to figure out a new stat system as compared to the system of your childhood favourite. Or saying that the battle system lacks strategy and doesn't require proper positioning or timing your actions - all using an example of a training fight. Or saying optimising your characteristics (which you aren't obligated to do) is somehow detrimental to the experience.

[@StratEdgyProductions]

Look, you said you opted out after the first battle comparisons, and from what you are saying here, it is obvious you are assuming I haven't addressed your concerns in the rest of the video. I can't really defend something you haven't watched, but as always, you are entitled to your opinion.

[@kaurnikita]

Strat-Edgy Productions dude, gimme a break, I was at the 20 minute mark of a 30 minute long video. And you haven't addressee any of my points in the remaining video - just finished it. The most disappointing thing for me, coming from your manipulative game design video, is how you find no problem clearly leading your audience with the tonal shifts.

[@kaurnikita]

Read my comment again, and I think I made it sound way too adversarial and accusatory - my bad. I'll just reiterate that I think that some of the points about PoE that didn't pertain to the obviously extremely loose narrative incentives felt a bit ill informed.

[@Lobomutante]

Your channel has helped me to understand why I drop some games. Helps me understand why I invest myself in some games and others I just stop playing. Pacing, framing, character development, motivation, stakes, conflict are all abstracts concepts that one, as a media consumer, must absorb almost inanely or you lose that person. Great essay, Strat

[@roufaspentaghast1636]

I've tried to play Pillars too many times. Always bail from boredom unless it's PoTD, Trial of Iron. Changes the way I have to play the game and approach different situations. But when it comes to Pillars story and gameplay setup, I think a pretty apt comparison is with the original Baldur's Gate. You have a small tutorial area where you MAY fuck about for awhile, but you can just go right up to Gorion and jump start the game. A short sequence later you're a couple of level 1's in the middle of a vast wilderness completely alone and with little direction. You could go North to the Friendly Arm Inn to find some friends, you could get tricked into following Tzar and Montarron who can be found just North by following the main road. You could even theoretically walk off in any direction and see whatever adventures or, more likely, death awaits you. Pillars starts pretty similar, but because the setting is new the writers force the whole length of the tutorial on you to explain barbarians, rocks, ruins, and inclement weather. By the time you make it through the first dungeon and get all your friends killed you find yourself more alone. The maps are more full of things, things with teeth, and so your best bet is to travel down the straight line to Gilded Vale where you'll be met with more forced, walking info dumps explaining this strange wacky world the writers have concocted. The other major differences are the over-arching plots. In both games you are awakening to a power you don't fully comprehend and you piece together the info as you go. The difference is that Baldur's Gate curses your very conception, a curse that slowly introduces and unravels itself drawing connections with your main nemesis while giving you compelling reasons to find and challenge that nemesis. Pillars on the other hand just dumps your unfortunate disposition on you and does not have the PC directly interact with the main villian until much, much later. It provides little urgency on its plot. Pillars fails to create antipathy between you and this villian. The worse thing Pillars' Big Bad does is cause you to sit through more exposition explaining your new found abilities with some people warning you not to go spreading it around or else. This possibility doesn't even present itself in Baldur's Gate, you're kept as clueless as your character what all these strange dreams mean, and by the time it does come up, it requires little explanation, involves sciences most young adults are intimately familiar with, and whose effects have become apparent throughout your journey. It's entirely possible you wouldn't even be adventuring with anyone familiar with your past, and the ones that are will never bring it up. Maybe because the writing in Baldur's Gate is shallow, maybe because the companion dialogue is skint to non-existant, or maybe because the writers didn't want to interrupt the game for a bunch of hamfisted shit. Although if Baldur's Gate 2 is any indication it was a combination of the former two.. I digress. Still making my way through your back log Strat, keep up the great work. Love your commentary and critiques. As a quick aside before I leave off, isn't it so strange these fantasy games always feel the need to introduce their own brand of extra? I mean, in a world with Dragons and magic, the focus is usually on some other narrative hook. Pillars is riddled with them. Instead of exposition covering trolls and dragons, we have to listen to some nonsense about biawics and hollowborn. I mean, I get it. I imagine if, in this real life we all share, a dragon flew over your house and shat on it like a common pidgeon some part of you would be way more annoyed than awestruck. lol. Ya know, any fantasy setting with dragons is always explaining how annoying it is when they steal livestock, damsels, and treasure, but no one wants to address how much these things probably shit. You can even have these jrpgs like FF13 introduce all their bogus Lcie, falcie, cieth word salad crap because the cyber punk setting they take place in, with floating cities and bio-monsters just isn't enough. Writers these days, man.

[@fortuneflux]

I had the opposite effect, I played the new shadow run for a whole maybe 30 minutes got bored and its been collecting dust ever since. However, i played Pillars of Eternity from start to finish. Not sure what the difference is but I have no naustelgia about Shadow Run of old but I do have naustelgia about Bauldur's Gate. Perhaps that's the difference?

[@cyberangel82]

What's naustelgia? Some kind of a nauseating nostalgia on your end?

[@jackofshadows8538]

@@cyberangel82 Hee hee... 'Naustalgia' - the feeling you get when your parents tell you that 'music was better in OUR time' or 'when WE were young, we had REAL games'. The nauseous twist in your gut when someone in their 50s begins telling you "when we went to school we didn't get multiple choice answers.. WE had to know ALL the answers from memory"... naustalgia can only be cured by getting that person to write your A-level 2000 word essay on what 'Art' means and a 3000 word essay on Shakespeare for English Literature for proof that they're speaking the truth! Ha ha!

[@PhyreI3ird]

Personally I'm a sucker for actually calm openings that don't treat you like you're the worst case of ADD (not saying that's what shadowrun did, but still). And it wasn't like it was soul-crushingly unimaginatively simple for PoE's start, at least from everything you described. It was still pretty interesting while being so simple, at least for my tastes (and I'm only going off this video and reading behind your own disinterested tone and intentionally underplayed word choice) as I haven't even played the game. There's really no accounting for taste but the way you narrated PoE's side of things really wasn't doing justice to the flaws it had because your tone and blatant word choice were completely overblowing it as your amount of distaste and disinterest in most cases seemed out of place for what you were describing and it only gave the impression that you went into it not even entertaining the possibility of it being any fun - even though I kind of doubt that was the case, that's REALLY how it came across.

[@zoblade2288]

Probably has something to do with the type of person you are. Do you like doing or experiencing? Most mainstream game reviewers and journalists are left leaning empathetic experiencers, hence PoE's accolades. But most regular gamers lean towards doers. I say lean because most everyone likes experiencing, but ONLY experiencing and being told things doesn't make a game. Doer's want to be an active in the experience, to work towards fixing or solving the Player Character's (PC's) problems. But PoE's PC display's no motivations no drives, he was just in the vicinity of the strong magic that made him a watcher. Even after that you arrive at the village and still no personality. Even the people/ghosts around you are mostly apathetic and only describe depravity they live in. The only person who thinks or imprints any motivation on the PC with "New place, Weird tree with dead bodies, let's get my bearings and explore to find out what is happening" is YOU the player. If the Player Character I'm roleplaying is completely apathetic to the whole situation, with no feelings... Why do I care? He's just a walking describe-my-surroundings-and-Physically-Feels-bot.

[@JohnCephas]

Cool video bro. When you described shadowrun with the jazz it sounded real smooth. You could do Audionovels or fiction readings.

[@leopimentel609]

Never played the game but at i think at 14:49 Rumblerot is supposed to be the game worlds version of diarrhea. Since Diarrhea dehydrates you and if you don't drink water you'd dehydrate and can die.