[⁴ᴷ] THE TRAGIC FALL of Croydon's WHITGIFT CENTRE | Zombie Mall, London

[@SondicoDenann]

I was born in Mayday in 1974, grew up in Norbury. Croydon was always that place you’d go to for everything, the Whitgift was at the heart of it all. Sad to see this once vibrant place look like something from a third world country. Thanks for sharing!

[@cookiemuncher123milk3]

Born In mayday too

[@alanhargreaves-thevoiceofr2361]

@@sardarpatel8415 all credit to Z.O.G ....

[@gerrypalmer6712]

As a teenager living in Croydon in the 1970's it was where we went on a Saturday. It was always packed as Saturday was the day for shopping, no shops were open on a Sunday. The variety of clothes shops, record shops, department stores was amazing. The Whitgift Centre then did not have a roof on it, remember the spiral ramps to get to the upper level. Is the pub still there in the centre. I only remember great times i wish i could go back

[@theresapierce3934]

This will all be bulldozed to make way for homes, which nobody can afford. I believe it was the intention all along, Greedy developers have have been biding their time and it's happening everywhere. Meantime the heads of council have been awarding themselves hefty pay rises for running the Borough into the ground.😊

[@pervysage4934]

what time was this? looks depressing AF. Used to be our hangout place after school in the 90s.

[@Croydonization]

Was only around 6pm- about an hour before the Centre closed. Thanks for watching!

[@joemcconnell2674]

Thanks to online shopping. So true these places during the1980s and 1990s would be coming down with loads of shoppers . Social media definitely has destroyed these shopping mall's.

[@johnorchard4]

@@joemcconnell2674 I have spent a long time studying the issues, and I knew this centre very well. I watched it being built (from the demolition of the old school that used to stand on the site, through the big hole in the ground, to the finished centre (without a roof in those days!). I worked in the centre diagonally opposite Boots and Sainsbury on the first floor in 1973-5 and then was often based at this Boots branch when I had a regional job with them. Whilst online shopping has made an impact, the real problem has been of a quite different nature. Planning policy being high on the list of culprits. It does not take a genius to realise that when you close down masses of wealth creating manufacturing industries and replace them with ever increasing offers of retailing delights, that eventually the supply of retail space will outstrip the demand. The population needs to be earning and growing at a rate commensurate with the increased shop floor space, but that has not been the case since the late 1970s. When the Thatcher government allowed out of town trading, and you suddenly saw places like the Purley Way transformed from industrial to retail, that was the fist major symptom of the malaise. Croydon in 1970 was the tneth largest and most successful retail centre in the UK. The Whitgift Centre was the jewel, alongside Allders which was the second largest department store in the land. Even by then though, the blight had started. In 1960 you could walk along North End and see businesses that were unique to Croydon. You could see public halls, cinemas and pubs. There were small local tea and coffee shops, and most of all - people still lived in and adjacent to North End! A little known pblic policy change altered things commencing in 1964. The power shift to the corporate retailers and the planning policy that decided that the town centre would be entirely a retail space - those were the things that ultimately killed off Croydon.

[@bibastarmedia9650]

​@@joemcconnell2674 Thanks to 6 pm, most SCentres look like this by 6pm :))) especially on a work days.

[@bibastarmedia9650]

​@@joemcconnell2674 Social media can't destroy such places. Anyhow in terms of shopping - huge things can't be done online, you cant buy a shoes that really right for you, nor clothes (if you care slightest for how it looks on you) there is no point to buy most things online.

[@leweezey]

Hurts to see the Whitgift Centre like this, used to be a shopping mecca and a great place to visit. Lived and worked in Croydon for years and have many happy memories of the place. Sad times indeed.

[@alexandertebbiche6061]

What a really sad shit whole Croydon really is now

[@KrzysztofK1982]

In the nineties this was a vibrant place. Today it’s a total dump. Thank f… I emigrated

[@SondicoDenann]

I’m right there with you. Left that area for the south coast in the early 2000’s, then moved to the US in 2006.

[@edc1569]

More to life than shopping centres, people figured that out.

[@SondicoDenann]

@@edc1569 like sitting on social media all day?

[@EightyFour-s3z]

@@edc1569- And the jobs for the local youth?

[@alanhargreaves-thevoiceofr2361]

@@EightyFour-s3z lLocal youth=Pakistani

[@Skaterbun]

Wow looks so creepy now you could film an apocalyptic movie here, I grew up here during the 80s and 90s so only knew Whitgift as a thriving bustling place full of families which is a bit like Churchill Square in Brighton now, which doesn’t seem to have been hit by a recession, to think that’s only 45 miles away ! Crawleys shopping centre is almost catching up with Whitgift, the loss of Debenhams and all that online business. Croydon for me was always about the iconic Allders ❤ but to be fair if the place cannot attract all of the big chains now, let alone any independents, then there has to be something very wrong, great video thank you !

[@Croydonization]

Thanks for watching!

[@johnorchard4]

The reason for the lack of independents in the centre is entirely due to the impacts of public policy which has not served many towns and city centres very well. In 1961 there were independents in North End and High Street, by 1971 these had all been marginalized. The big brands were throwing money at landlords in an effort to secure the prized spots on what was then a prestigious shopping street. Many comment on business rates as if this was some new super phenomenon impacting retailers, but even under the old General Rates (as set down in the 1967 Act) meant that valuations for rating purposes were based upon the notional (or real) annual rental values of the property (or the tone of such values in a block on the street). Once the site securing frenzy by big store groups got under way, the rentals reacted as markets always will, by pushing rents ever higher. This had several long term effects. 1) the rents rising caused the rates to increase, thus making the sites, especially in North End, completely unviable for anyone except the retail chains with deep pockets and high pulling power. 2) the rising rents caused a shift from private to corporate landlords - an insidious shift which was often accompanied by 'upward only' rent reviews and the need by said landlords to maintain high valuations to ensure that their own balance sheets looked solid. All this came because of the 1964 abolition of the resale price controls. The 1947 Town & Country Planning Act and most of its successors provided the impetus for much else - by creating a planning environment which effectively zoned town centres - North End was indisputably aretail space, yet previously it had been much more. There had been cinemas, theatres, public meeting halls, pubs and other non-retail businesses and even residential accomodation along that relatively short road. (Even the pub built into the Whitgift centre was unable to afford the cost environment) These were what made it the modern centre. This combination effect of quite disparate policies was never relieved by a retenchment in the markets, so the costs of occupying premises on North End were never seriously reduced een when the retail led recession caused a long term decline in sales, and the planning policies continued to screw the town by first allowing, and then encouraging, out of town retail parks. You can see the thread. Planners start to cluster and zone areas, thus removing the historical mix of town centres, so that people visiting for different purposes were exposed to and able to enjoy the benefits of other aspects of the town without effort - all in the same street very often. The abolition of the resale price maintenance in 1964 caused, not jut a buying frenzy by corporate retailers, but it also brought about a shift in the power in consumer markets. The retailers now set prices not the manufacturers. Aggressive pricing was now legally available as a marketing tool which had hitherto been illegal. Then when the now dominant corporate retailers had succssfully managed to marginalise the independents and remove ll non-retail from their area of influence and the prime sites - the planners come along and allow them to expand into much bigger sites on the outskirts of towns - sites which were brownfield and consequently much cheaper! The vacancies were initially filled by newly arrived retail chains (and many popular names of the 1980s, 90s and the early 2000s were entirely new brands created after 1964!), but these too found newer homes in the ever expanding out of town sites (which were now also becoming more expensive sites) and eventually the town centres, with all the constraints of space that town centres have, and with all the legacy costs of high rents and high rates, meant that the town centres were no longer attractive, no longer viable as businesss spaces and there was, in any case, because of planning policy - far too much retail space available. Yet, the artifically inflated markets created by the corporate landlords did not permit the markets to react freely. The mere fact of fewer competing would-be tenants did not bring down the rents, nor the rates. The previously marginalised SME retailers were not able to return to North End because of cost. The buying public, in the meantime, reacted by shifting their buying practices - those that could simply shopped elsewhere - some online and others to the newly minted ever larger emporiua of the Purley Way, or even further away such as at Thurrock or Blue Water.

[@Hanaonpaws]

So eerie

[@itsjemmabond]

You're not lying about the apocalyptic movies...

[@TellyMan200]

I remember back in 80s and 90s visiting Whitgift every weekend. They had so many events for Christmas and summer. Even visited centrale when it first opened . Now croydon is a ghost town. . Killed off by other centres like glade and online shopping.

[@AJ_Transport_Hub]

Back then this place was always busy, so many of the shops were open, but looking at it now its eerie and creepy, many of the shops have been shut and the only active shops are M&S, Boots and WHSmith, and Centrale also feels very eerie and dystopian due to its modern look.

[@Rimmi-k8z]

Used to hang around there about 30 years ago am only twenty minutes away and haven't dared go there for years for all the trouble so sad

[@rajnirvan3336]

Heartbreaking. A shadow of it's former self

[@limeyalien77]

This is desperately sad .. I grew up in Croydon in the 80's and spend most of my youth hanging out here before there was a roof on it .. Miss Selfrige .. Chelsea Girl .. Allders .. Woolworths .. Shape ( amazing shop ) .. The Forum pub for underage drinking.. underage drinking 😅.. I remember every inch of this place .. every foorstep hurts

[@peterclark9677]

Croydon is full of crap today, years ago it was Great

[@JennyVooght]

Can’t believe this! So so sad! I was born in 1958 and was there when it was first being built loved going there such happy memories!

[@harvey455]

Croydoners have alot more competition now ie , Bromley and Sutton have caught up with is a great deal and the Westfield is a magnet for shopping enthusiasts ! What with this and online markets it had taken its toll used to be great , still like the place less people to crowd you 👍

[@Codestud]

I lived in Croydon between 1997-2004 and would regularly frequent the Whitgift. Back then it was a vibrant shopping centre containing all the big name retail stores, topped off with Allders for those who wanted more luxury shopping. This is extremely sad and depressing to watch.

[@johnorton7773]

Worked in bakers oven early 80s .the centres changed a lot since then ..

[@itsjemmabond]

Years ago before university, I used to visit Sainsbury's Local at the Whitgift centre where I befriended some of the staff; they were nice girls, and I often exchanged pleasantries with the security guards there. I was working for McDonald's (Croydon 2), and on Thursdays after my shift I'd stop at the Sainsbury's for some shopping, and I'd give the girls Monopoly vouchers for free food (If you know, you know), and they were always appreciative. Such pleasant memories. I nearly had a heart attack when I saw that place as a shadow of its former self, but I understand why they closed down.

[@kumarmahalingam9133]

Heart breaking scenes. Everywhere seen empty. Oh my God ..

[@momentsoftruth7712]

Born st. Mary's Croydon & I have happy memories of Croydon, Sanderstead, Addiscombe, Surrey st market, Purley, early branch of the body shop, Athena poster & art shop...Joss sticks...the world as we know it is ending tho...ready for something better..

[@Born_Prestine]

I lived in Handcroft estate in west croydon from 1996 2006 went to Ashburton school and use to pass by here to get home always busy good times, Could you do a walkthrough into Handcroft estate the creamish blocks with red garages if possible would love to see how that looks now 18 years on❤

[@Croydonization]

That is actually a great idea! Handcroft has got a reputation and the Police are often searching around there- so would be good to go and have a look for myself. If u can tell me which block you lived at, I will make sure to include that in the video. Thanks for the suggestion.

[@johnorchard4]

Allders was never high end, it was always in the middle market. Grants was high end years ago, even to the silver service tea rooms. Debenhams trading as Kennards were the bottom of the department store list.

[@Croydonization]

Thanks for commenting. Allders was super high end. Even back in 2012, they were charging £799 for a small carriage clock. £15,999 for a large Grandfather clock and £3950 for a sofa and chair set.

[@johnorchard4]

@@Croydonization I do not dispute that they were expensive in many ways. However, as a retailer myself who worked closely with the directors of Allders, Debenhams and Grants over many years. I was speaking about their target audiences. All department stores had curiously expensive pricing policies - it is one of the reasons for the demise of the department store. Department stores were all about theatre, and the audiences of the different theatres were differentated by the offer being made.

[@spannerasaspoon]

Yep - worked in Grant's silver service restaurant as a student, often serving one of the senior Grant brothers his lunch. Early 70s. Had the cafeteria on the floor below (for the plebs!). Was very much a cut above Kennards (Later Debenhams) and Allders. Mid 70s I worked in H Samuel jewellers in Whitgift Centre (always joked I only got the job because of my name [cryptic clue for anyone who knew/knows me]). Remember the arcade down the side of Kennards where you could get a donkey ride or have a glass animal made for you while you waited? Then walk round to The Swap Shop in Keeley Road and buy all sorts of historical items, knik-nacks and collectibles, or trade. Those days are long gone. I suspect The Swap Shop was partly what fuelled my terrible hoarding habit which, to this day is the bane of my life but the source of much fascination and many memories.

[@markymark627]

what time of day was this filmed . trying to get some context

[@Ryan_Official_2001]

Is the clock in Whitgift Centre ringing? It supposed to play 23.30 chimes, not 23.15 chimes..

[@Al-vw8qt]

Like an Afghanistan asylum seekers town now. So sad .

[@craig854]

Be interesting to know if it was lack of customers or the council charting extortionate rent. Probably a bit of both

[@ManilaHyderabad-y5t]

It's like walking in the abandoned hospital...

[@DNSWRLD]

Ridiculous parking restrictions, short sightedness from those in crontrol, overwhelming clusters of empty skyscrapper offices, unemployment and the list goes on. Croydon failed a long Long time ago. What Croydon now needs is an approach from visionary minset, and one that offers inclusion for all.

[@dogbreath8396]

Used to get my barnett done in the End ! Proper punk style 👊🏻🇬🇧

[@lorenfante7666]

Is marks and sparks still there?

[@Croydonization]

Yeah it's still there, just about lol.

[@Azimuth8687]

Thinking of M&S Makes me chuckle. I was propersitioned there one morning whilst handling the men's skimpys by a well groomed retired gentleman. Happy days.

[@thestr8jacket1]

This is mostly down to online shopping and the greedy council parking charges combined with crime rates and poverty in surrounding areas. Bluewater in comparison is still bustling... free parking, easy access and no poundshops.

[@benjamindenton]

The loss of Allders and the riots of 2011 all contributed to this.

[@applecrumble8424]

Nonsense. Oxford street is the same. Its cause is recession and online shopping.

[@pawanraj7264]

I agree croydon has gone down hill I live in Croydon and I’m in shopping centre everyday and if you film it when all the shops are open there are lots more people so stop putting Croydon down. I’ve been to other centres that are worse like I said film it during the day and you see a difference.

[@Croydonization]

Why can't you go and film it?

[@matthewprince9705]

I went to Bromley's The Glades on my birthday in August 2024. It was just as wonderful as I remembered: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hoqanKKtYryYidk - Just catch the SL5 bus and you'll be there in 25 minutes!

[@barson488]

Very sad Times

[@jacquelineoconnor7234]

The Body Shop has now gone too

[@diorocks5858]

wow people are still brave enough to walk in Croydon?

[@Reg-Edit]

Croydon, the new East London😢

[@unies176]

That will be Manchester Trafford Centre soon if they start charging for parking up your car there

[@hazelswain9768]

the rot set in when North End was pedestrianised ...

[@mickboakes7023]

Sad. But why?

[@itsjemmabond]

Online shopping

[@EightyFour-s3z]

Thank Amazon……. ……and a short-sighted, gullible populace.

[@SP-lw7mr]

People make a place. Go and have a look at the people there now, if you dare.

[@freeatlast.]

Don't anyone dare blame Westfield 🙄

[@srfurley]

Wes. The Westfield plan has blighted the place for years. A large area in the centre of Bradford was demolished for a Westfield development and then sat empty for several years when Westfield lost interest. Eventually, the Broadway Centre was built, but I don’t think Westfield are involved. AWestfield dips the last thing that Croydon needs. They already have two very large sites in London; I know the Stratfield one quite well.almost the whole of one floor, and much of the top one, is dedicated to clothing, and associated things, handbags, shoes, jewellery etc. There are mobile ‘phone shops and similar things, but very few shops selling everyday items. There are many empty units. I quite like the building, but it’s in an inconvenient location, over a huge footbridge crossing 11 railway lines, and far enough to get very wet if it’s raining. For food shopping there is a Waitrose and M&S, but both are expensive and Waitrose is right at the far end, not very convenient unless you happen to live in what used to be the athlete’s village. Considering the size of the place there are not very many people in it, and manyof those that are there seem to be just looking rather than buying. The Stratford Centre meanwhile is thriving. It’s nothing fancy, but it’s in a convenient location and has many shops and stalls selling everyday goods.

[@DerekHumphreys-g5c]

Sad😂😂😂😂

[@andyb150]

Is this because of shoplifting and crime innit?

[@bobbiescrisps9208]

This is not happening in most other European countries Ireland and Spain for example, why?