THE TRAGIC LOSS OF AN ASTRONAUT CREW THAT CHANGED THE MOON LANDING SEE & BASSETT 1966

[@ShadesOClarity]

This is one of my favorite of your presentations although it was so tragic.

[@briancooper2112]

Ron, thanks for video!

[@ronrogers]

Thanks for watching!

[@kenh7181]

I recall doing some circles in the T-38 at Reese in '92, but the patterns were so big, it was not productive, nor did we, as students, have the experience to appreciate the maneuver. Later, in the C-130, we did a lot of random tactical approaches at 200-230 kts and 300 ft, so we became comfortable computing the turn radius distances and had timing/heading offset techniques to create flyable groundtracks. This was a helpful skill-builder, as our worldwide mission required us to also maintain IFR circle proficiency. Like you, I went to AIS (replaced IPIS) at Randolph. One of the best schools I ever attended. Great video. Tragic loss; RIP.

[@2140BlackCreek]

Good points and spot on. I was across the field at Ozark dispatch when this occurred. Years later, in the late 1990's I'm flying an MD-80 and my trip series took us into MacArthur Field on Long Island. The ILS was out of service, and the wind and the wind instrument were funky (a story in itself): we were cleared for a circling approach. I'd done those in slow and smaller GA aircraft, but this was one of only 5 times I ever did it for real in a transport category airplane. In the circle I remember looking up over my left shoulder and noticing that at the circling altitude we only just cleared the cloud bases in the turn , indeed our upper wing disturbing many of the clouds. Turning final a drifting cloud obscured the view for a moment, then we had visual and landed. I'm sure the pax heard the sigh of relief from the cockpit when we got to the gate.

[@daverooneyca]

Great content as always, Ron. Please keep the stories coming!

[@ronrogers]

Thanks, will do!

[@sc1784]

Great video. Tragic what happened to See and Bassett.

[@michaeldavenport5034]

Thanks, Ron. Have seen this a few times before, but not to your degree with the circling to land information and those particular photos. Very well presented for us. What a tragic event and interesting how it changed the selection process for future space flights.

[@garyplewa9277]

As a C310 owner myself I'm glad to see I'm in good company. I enjoy and look forward to your videos. Thank you for making them.

[@ronrogers]

Thanks for watching!

[@thedevilinthecircuit1414]

Thanks for the look back! If I recall correctly, there was a similar T38 incident at Laughlin AFB a year or so ago.

[@raulcoronado6024]

Thank you, Sir

[@ronrogers]

You are welcome

[@chrischeshire6528]

I want to thank you for remembering the first tragedy in the space program. I remember that day and the news reports. People usually think of Apollo One as the first loss, but here is the first. Aim High.

[@whathasxgottodowithit3919.]

Ron you are so right, circling approaches are bad news, particularly at night in bad weather

[@maxsmodels]

I had read about the crash several times, but never had the details. It is interesting to know what happened. The last circling approach I did in a jet was in an E190 simulator but luckily my airline decided to get away from teaching them so now we only do straight in ILS or RNAV approaches.

[@dks13827]

Ron, fine job on a story that I am familiar with.

[@oyveydetoymeny]

Two recent bisjet circling crashes, one in Aspen the other in Sand Diego : both non-slat equipped. As with any visual approach it is important to brief what you’ll do in case you lose visual or find yourself in an undesirable position : It primes you to not accept the unacceptable and gives your colleague a sense of not being just along for the ride. Always have an exit strategy.

[@who2u333]

I hated doing circling approaches in a Seneca, I can't imagine trying one in a T-38.

[@Dingeraye1]

As you've pointed out in previous videos and here, the T-38 had some bad things happen in final turns. Circling approaches are prohibited by many operators in the airline environment. One of the reasons for this (but not the only one) is that, until recently, most simulators don't do a good job on the visuals for this. All the operators I flew with called them "visual maneuver to landing" so we wouldn't have to "circle", and there are higher weather limits for that sort of thing (VFR WX) as opposed to the circling limits. Even then, doing that sort of thing at night in a '67 got me a 'bank angle" call once in Puerto Plata. Puerto Plata has several aircraft dents in the mountain to the southwest of the airport. Mostly Soviet aircraft I understand. Even though they were test pilots, these fellas didn't have a lot of flying time (by airline standards) and, like you and me, they put their pants on one leg at a time. I understand your reluctance to call it pilot error, though.

[@richardmorgan3974]

Forgot about those "Localizer - Circle to Land" approaches! There were a few in the northeast (New England and Canada) in the 80s and 90s where I flew commuter airlines. We avoided them unless absolutely necessary - especially at night. We'd take the full NDB approach instead. 50 miles out, they'd clear you for the approach and tell us to report on the ground! Shot a lot of full NDB approaches in Canadian Maritimes region in all kinds of IFR. THAT was fun. By 1990, we generally regarded NDBs as stone age but were grateful for having spent all those hours over Florida AM radio towers as CFI-IIs, practicing every scenario! Lol Too bad about those astronauts. What a crappy way to go.

[@johnmorykwas2343]

Had the experience of landing an RF-4 in bad weather because the frontseater, an SR pilot, had vertigo so bad in the racetrack holding pattern that he lost his lunch, and said "you have the aircraft".

[@terrydepew1252]

Was that at Reno early 90's?

[@gregthornton4750]

Ron Elliott See is a hero to all the midshipman who passed through Kings Point after his plane crashed. He was a graduate of USMMA and there is a room at the school that is named after him.

[@kevinking9783]

Elliott McKay See... born July 23, 1927 in Dallas, Texas.

[@theegg-viator4707]

Always learn something new from you! 🫡👍🏻

[@warped-sliderule]

Circling approach - more like Circling your grave. The Learjet that bought it in San Diego 2 years ago is another prime example. Blancolirio gave us an appreciation for the deadly nature on that crash...

[@christopherblack3102]

Tom Stafford and Eugene Cernan in the second T-38 weren’t behind following, they were in formation together with Elliot See and Charlie Basset. When it was obvious they weren’t going to make the runway, Stafford started to pull up to do the missed approach expecting See to do the same. But suddenly See banked his T-38 hard over, Stafford said on the intercom “ Where the hell is he going ? “. Stafford never attempted to follow See for the circling approach. He flew the missed approach instead and later they landed safely.

[@ronrogers]

You are correct. My explanation was too brief in that regard.

[@christopherblack3102]

Well let me add that See was flying lead, but it was a formation lead.

[@briancooper2112]

R.I.P. 🇺🇲🫡

[@cturdo]

My dad was working in the McDonnell building next to the one that was struck. Suffice to say, everything stopped and they went to investigate.

[@gordonbergslien30]

In his memoir Deke Slayton was very critical of See's flying ability. (p. 167)

[@ronrogers]

Yes, Deke was a great guy and I was a little saddened that he was so critical.

[@poplarboy7129]

It's hard for me to remember this stuff but don't I recall something about some astronauts and a t-38 flying into a tower power lines up around Cincinnati?

[@donparnell309]

Is there much difference between a circular approach and a circular landing that many Navy aircraft use for carrier landings?

[@ronrogers]

The issue is low altitude of the turn and low visibility. The navy approach is typically a visual approach similar to an AF overhead approach.

[@williammoreno2378]

It's said that Charlie Basset was one heck of a pilot and engineer.

[@georgew.5639]

I’m not a fan of circling approaches. Too much opportunity for a stall spin at too low an altitude for recovery.

[@richardmorgan3974]

In 11,000 hours TT, about 7,000 of it as an airline pilot, I think I accepted 2 circle to land approaches for that exact reason.. anytime you depart normal procedures, you are asking for trouble (in my opinion)

[@tracyrreed]

I've circled many times. But not at T-38 speeds. I'll be doing a couple of circling approaches tomorrow. I am based at KSEE and the localizer is a circling approach. I've flown it at night, in rain, etc. Be careful out there!

[@davidtrindle6473]

It’s such a common cause of stalls, especially in general aviation.

[@richardbriscoe8563]

At PIT at Randolph in the late ‘70s there was one, only one, flight with afterburner. There had been a mishap in which a student had gone into burner in the pattern. The aircraft basically swapped ends and crashed.

[@erictaylor5462]

In any aviation accident, it is important to know why the pilot errored. Only in this way can we learn to avoid making that mistake again. There have been many accidents that have come down to human error. But by understanding why the mistake was made, can we learn to avoid it in the future.

[@65gtotrips]

That was funny when you said ‘If we had less than 60 miles of visibility it was a bad day’…I laughed out loud but I know you’re serious, but still comical.

[@ronmoore5827]

There is a reason most airlines won’t even let their crews attempt a circle to land approach. As you explained it’s just too easy for them to go bad.

[@joes6089]

I fly corporate. Same, no circling in my company. Plenty of Circle approach accidents. discuss them in every class

[@joes6089]

please see comment below regarding eyebrow windows on 737, and 727, as Ron may know better

[@williammoreno2378]

Sad event to the program. More so for the families.

[@takashitamagawa5881]

Tragic it was, the loss of Bassett and See just before they were to launch on their first mission into space. Not much has been written about them, it is good that the story of the accident gets proper treatment here in this video. Obviously there is much that goes into flying. One would think offhand that test pilots would be the best of the best, able to save their aircraft in situations which would overwhelm other pilots. But the video credibly shows how aircraft characteristics, specialized training, and flight doctrine are part of the picture. Aldrin got his chance as pilot of Gemini 12 to demonstrate proper EVA technique in zero gravity, which one would believe enhanced his position in the Apollo rotation.

[@scootertooter6874]

Where did you get that great photo of NASA 901 in the yellow band/Blue racing stripe scheme? That's my favorite NASA T-38 scheme...

[@ronrogers]

found it on line

[@kennethward9530]

Thanks again for another intelligent presentation with layman’s level explanation. You again showed that is possible. At some point in time when data is available, could you do a comparison between the flying characteristics of the T-38 and the new Boeing advanced jet trainer? Thanks.

[@ronrogers]

Unfortunately I do not have any experience in the new trainer to make a comparison.

[@kennethward9530]

I appreciate your integrity in that regard-I was hoping you may have contacts in current test pilot community who could give an overview.@@ronrogers

[@richardgreen7811]

Is that a P-Pod beneath 901 in the 1st picture ?

[@Blowinshiddup]

They got some mention in "From The Earth To The Moon", where the comments basically amounted to "dodged a bullet" by losing them before they had a chance to mess up a moon shot. Obviously for dramatic effect but geez.

[@PaulLoveless-Cincinnati]

Hey Ron I noticed that you slurred a few words during your presentation. With the utmost respect- I just want to make sure that you are feeling ok. I'm sure it's nothing or that I misheard.

[@ronrogers]

I was in the middle of a rather nasty cold and it was doing me in. Thanks for caring but I'm much better now.

[@PaulLoveless-Cincinnati]

@@ronrogers Very good. I wasn't sure how to say that without sounding accusatory or mean. Glad to hear that you are alright.

[@Bobm-kz5gp]

American Airlines stopped letting us do circling approaches around 2001, that was a relief mostly because we didn’t have to do them anymore in the simulator during training, check rides, and real life. I never crashed doing one in the simulator nor did I ever do one in real life. I believe an airliner had crashed in that same time frame, an the reason why AA quit allowing them.

[@blave549]

I am a very lapsed instrument-rated private pilot, and I always thought that circling approaches were a daft idea during my training. But then, I don't have much time, and zero jet time, so what do I know.

[@ronrogers]

You seem to know enough!

[@bobcfi1306]

With all the RNAV approaches available. circle to land approaches should be reserved for VMC conditions

[@chrisyarbrough785]

Circling approaches you have a tendency too dig in and start pulling the nose up which shortens the turn . meanwhile you are losing track of altitude and airspeed. definitely a unsafe maneuver we can do without

[@williammoreno2378]

Wasn't Tom Stafford flying on See's wing and initiated a missed approach when they overshot?

[@ronrogers]

Yes

[@erictaylor5462]

Even if you are testing CAT III equipment, you want good visibility. You don't test equipment or procedures in conditions that require them. That way, if the equipment fails to work as it is expected, you can see this and correct for it. The point of testing is to make sure it works as expected. If it is in testing, it has not yet proven to be reliable.

[@dks13827]

Ron, a little known story is that Walt Cunningham's Air Force brother Ken was killed in an F-104 in Texas. Did you happen to know that one ? It is in Walt's book.

[@vanstry]

Circling approaches cause accidents in a LOT of jet powered aircraft. There was a big one in the San Diego area just last Christmas. They're not taught well at all, and the testing for them is poor too.

[@htw9594]

It was snowing and visibility was very bad. This crew elected declined to use ILS. The back up crew used ILS and landed safely. I don’t remember which crew the first approach.

[@erictaylor5462]

You can always tell if a plane from the 50's or early 60's was fast. Fast planes were skinny in the middle. Just look at the F-102. Not skinny in the middle an barely go Mach 1. The F-106 looks a lot like the F-102, but the 106 is skinny in the middle, and the F-106 was what the F-102 was suppose to be. The area rule said you had to waist the planes.

[@Sreybk]

It would have been interesting to observe what kind of astronauts See and Bassett would have become. Ugh, circle-to-land in Part 91 is bad anyway, especially in single-pilot IFR. Did United ever or eventually prohibit circle-to-land approaches? It seems to me that it could just be avoided in Part 91 or 125 by having ATC just put aircraft in a hold (if fuel permits) to have them be able to shoot a non-standard straight-in or ILS approach. No reason at all for a lightweight 172 or a Twin. There should be no excuse in VFR. I don't get it.

[@joes6089]

if you look at 737 built before or about 2000, you will see little windows (eyebrow windows), later all these were covered, and eventually removed. They were needed so pilots could keep runway in sight at steep bank angle required to stay within Circling limits

[@johncantwell8216]

Was just looking at some old pix of 707, DC8, DC9 and they all had the eyebrow windows!@@joes6089

[@Sreybk]

@@joes6089 I wonder if you could circle to land correctly in this:kzbin.info/www/bejne/qmSQiayNn6ycprc

[@ronrogers]

That was impressive!

[@Sreybk]

@@ronrogers The RC T-38? Did you recognize yourself in the back seat? I know, I know this isn't your era "White Rocket."

[@Gyrocage]

Sadly there is very little biographical information available about Elliot See and even less about Charles Basset. Like Neil Armstrong, at the time of his selection, Elliot See was a civilian. He was a former Navy pilot employed as a test pilot by General Electric. He had done a lot of work testing the J-79.

[@SladeBling]

I believe it was said that See flew "old womanly".

[@rlsmith6904]

Did Braniff pilots know to fly an approach other than circling? I am surprised the FAA didn’t require Braniff to add parachutes to the seat flotation devices.

[@orionexplorer]

I am going to disagree with you on some of the points you made. Both Elliot See and Charles Bassett had with in the last year gone through ILS training and were certified. Thomas Stafford and Eugene Cernan had also completed the same ILS training. See was a Lt. Cdr. in the Naval Reserves and also worked at Edwards Air Force Base. Charles A. Bassett II was a Captain in the Air Force and also at one time worked at Edwards Air Force Base. The key point about listing their ranks and service was to show they had experience in aircraft. Now, they had completed their ILS training and were certified as proficient. Tom Stafford had mentioned that they had been flying low on approach which was below minimum recommended for approach. They missed the approach on went on a go around, again Stafford reported that they stayed below the clouds on their missed approach and started to make the turn for a go around. Stafford and Cernan both did a go around, flew the minimums for altitude and made a successful second approach flying through the clouds. See and Bassett did not climb to minimums, nor did they follow the approach pattern for a go around. They did hit the building where their spacecraft was being built. They were to inspect the spacecraft that day and then fly back to Houston. I did not know about the afterburners being kicked in though I would assume that was done when they saw they were going to hit the building. Some of the information that I have quoted here is from the NASA published book SP-4203 - ON THE SHOULDERS OF TITANS - A History of Project Gemini, this book can be found in the NASA Histories and is free to download.

[@ronrogers]

Let me just comment that I was the T-38 Senior Flight Examiner at Wing Stan/Eval at Edwards. Being signed off and being proficient are two different things. No one ever really flew in weather. We had a Wx recall one day at EDW with light rain and a ceiling of 11,000 ft. I signed people off who really needed more training but no one ever flew in wx and if I downed everyone who really was not proficient, and I am talking high level, well respected individuals, I would probably have been out of a job.