The True D&D-Killer Was Here All Along

My 13 minutes long Why I Love 13th Age video: • Why I Love 13th Age (a...
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[@ThreeSkullOrthodox]

The true D&D killer is called Wizards of the Coast.

[@TheTerrainWizard]

😂😂😂

[@LyleAshbaugh]

No, it’s Hasbro.

[@jeffreyquigley]

@@LyleAshbaugh No, it's both.

[@LyleAshbaugh]

@@jeffreyquigley touché

[@vatofdread1468]

Yeah, both, though WOTC dances to Hasbro’s tune.

[@whynaut1]

It turns out the real DnD Killer was the friends we make along the way

[@polyhedron3386]

You win KZbin for the day.

[@EpicEmpires-pb7zv]

The real DnD Killer was the friends we made along the way...who introduced us to other RPGs.

[@MagiofAsura]

3:20 this is why i look at WotC as the Bethesda of TTRPGs. They let the modders fix the game as they release roughly the same thing.

[@polyhedron3386]

That’s a good analogy

[@slaapliedje]

Ha, especially in the age of Daggerfall, where bugs would just let you fall through the walls so you could then just kill things without getting hit...

[@Zsamoff]

D&D killer? Do you mean "scheduling"?

[@polyhedron3386]

Also to answer the obvious and valid question - Yes you should get into this game now while you're waiting for second edition.

[@MagiofAsura]

where was this video when the bundle of holding for 13th age bundle sale was going ;P its cool to see more 13th age videos coming out. the marketing team of 13th age definitely dropped the ball while the KS was going. it felt like no one was talking about it.

[@polyhedron3386]

@@MagiofAsurahaha I had the why I love 13th age video up then. And yes they need to step it up!

[@yourseatatthetable]

No game ever published doesn't have flaws and every edition has issues.

[@LavenderGooms]

The core mechanics of 13th Age support narrative roleplaying more than D&D ever has. I'll be ride-or-die for 13th Age forever.

[@JANoll1]

I absolutely agree that 13th Age needs to be more popular. I’ve been playing it since it was first published, and have run a few campaigns with it. My favorite thing in the game is the way monsters are have a kind of AI for their powers. Also the Escalation Die is brilliant.

[@polyhedron3386]

Yes to all of that. I think so many people would fall in love with this game...if they only knew about it :)

[@peterachmeter6029]

13th Age is THE BEST modern Dnd Game. Cant wait for 2e, i backed the KS.

[@polyhedron3386]

Did you see they just released the Gamma rules for backers? It’s playable! I really want to try running a game on it.

[@peterachmeter6029]

@@polyhedron3386 I do have it! I took some rules updates and applied them to my 1e game, but not everything. I came kind of late to the party to 1e and want to savour and use it a while until 2e is fully released. We mostly play at my table, so physical books are really good for us. Also, my players *just* all got their characters in 1e, I dont want to undo that progress just yet (we have some first time roleplayers, ill take it slow with them)

[@SnowmanInHell]

Is there a way to get ahold of that legally for folks who missed the kickstarter?

[@polyhedron3386]

@@SnowmanInHell Late pledge! www.kickstarter.com/projects/pelgranepress/13th-age-second-edition-storytelling-action-fantasy-game

[@transmissionsfromtheunderd2303]

"We don’t need to kill DnD" okay but I want to

[@wilmartinez1]

No mention of Castles and Crusades? Everyone seems to forget or don't know about this game. It has been around since 2004 with more freedom for the CK or DM and the players to do anything with their imagination than 5e could.

[@alexabel8010]

I love how you came in, haha! Was watching a couple of your other 13th Age videos. I'm not surprised at all. (I am surprised that your channel isn't more popular). Also when your hair is shorter, you look like Tai Lopez :)

[@polyhedron3386]

lol I'll make sure to keep my hair long then

[@rory7590]

13th Age was written, literally, by ex-D&D developers of the 3rd and 4th editions respectively. It isn’t that different and certainly hasn’t killed D&D.

[@Mr.RobotHead]

I've only played 13th Age a few times at cons, but I always had a great time playing it.

[@polyhedron3386]

I've never played a game at a con. How did it go? Mostly just combat or actually got into roleplaying and character moments?

[@Mr.RobotHead]

@@polyhedron3386 I try out new (or new to me) games at cons all the time nowadays. They're generally pretty balanced, with roleplay, combat, exploration, and any unique features the system might have. They're always one-shot intro games to give players a good idea of what the game is all about. A lot of times, they're run by the games' designers, an adventure-writer, or someone involved with the publisher in some way, so they're pretty enthusiastic about the game, and that really comes through when playing. The only time a con game was a bit lackluster was because half of the players kind of zoned out whenever we weren't in combat. And, so, with GenCon right around the corner, I should see if there are still opens seats for any 13 Age games...

[@CScott-wh5yk]

I didn’t even know they had a kickstarter… total PR fail 😒

[@polyhedron3386]

Yeah lots of people missed it, I think only hardcore 13th Age folks even knew about it

[@jeffreyquigley]

Tales of the Valiant is basically 5e. DC20 is inspired by 5e and pathfinder 2e, taking ideas from both, but it is neither one nor the other. It is its own thing for sure. Reminds me of an old game called True20.

[@scottbruckner4653]

Honestly they just needed to blast an advert for 13 days.

[@Drakelis]

Trying to move my group to 13th Age! They're not that into grid combat, and Icons mesh well with how my homebrew world operates.

[@ElDaumo]

Not even Hasbro-Wiz can kill DnD, as long as players always come back and buy their slob. They are the Nestlé of ttrpg

[@Webhead123]

I've seen 13th Age about for a few years but I've been kinda long out of the loop on D&D-esque fantasy RPGs. It is cool to see such a wealth of contemporary alternatives to D&D and I'm just glad that the RPG hobby in general seems to still be going strong. My own tastes and tolerances have evolved pretty dramatically over the decades but I always try to keep an eye on the "D&D-adjacent" space to see what's popular, what's unpopular and what new ideas various designers come up with to keep the Fantasy RPG genre moving forward.

[@ShadowsofArchonia]

Holy hell the first one second of this video just earned you the sub. Thank you for that.

[@commandershepard9920]

Would love to try this but I just bought a bunch of Pathfinder 2e books and have started running it. Really liking that system.

[@SkittleBombs]

Probably fans want “Indie” growth instead of “old industry”

[@SteveAkaDarktimes]

its a problem when a game that apparently has been out for years, and that had a kickstarter for a second edition even! that this is the first time I heard of it. maybe it kind of got lost in the mush of OSR and Retroclones?

[@polyhedron3386]

Probably, and honestly they just don't do a very good job marketing it. Which I think could be solved with 1-2 people just making content about it full time! Which sounds like a dream job honestly.

[@neuromancer9k]

Looking forward to 13th Age 2e, and I hope that they open up the Bundle of Holding again....I realize it just ended 3 or 4 weeks ago? But in the meantime, 1e is also on Drive-thru RPG. 13th Age is (imho) close enough to 5e that I also don't think it has much (if any) of a learning curve to switch. And I'm looking forward to more 13th Age coverage from you, while we're at it. 😉⚔🍻 5:24 - I agree 100%, and I hope that Rob and Jonathan's people are paying attention to you.

[@polyhedron3386]

I need to get their attention somehow lol

[@grr-OUCH]

I have had some 13th Age pdfs for a few years but my group did not want to play it. If I remember right, I really liked the way they did magical items.

[@pluviaaeternum]

Daggerheart is phenomenal. 1.5 really improved

[@CScott-wh5yk]

Love 13th age

[@taragnor]

I'm glad to see more people talking about 13A.

[@OldTomato44]

To be honest I completely forgot 13th Age existed lol

[@polyhedron3386]

lol that's fair. Well here's your reminder!

[@rydakule]

I just play Old School Essentials. I like D&D I just don’t like what it’s become. So any old version of the game that has been modernised a bit is just perfect. It’s still D&D so people can transition easily and there’s a huge supplement economy from older supplements to new official and 3rd party modules. D&D is D&D. Don’t overthink it. No need to kill it and throw the baby out with the bath water.

[@taejaskudva2543]

5:20 👍🏽❤

[@drdm2446]

How about a video where you talk about specifics involved in playing a 13th age campaign? Have you done that yet? Any niggles that aren’t apparent when you read the rules or play a one shot, but become irritating after several sessions? Does roping in the icon all the time get… too much? And what about from a players pov? That turned out sounding like a list of demands - sorry! Just suggestions from an interested party 😊

[@polyhedron3386]

All valid points! I did make a video about how I use icons and generally what's it like playing, but I have more 13th Age videos planned!

[@Luykosaurus]

It frustrates me that everyone is rushing to make a D&D killer, even though there are already many great TTRPGs out there that have been done for years. I personally can recommend Ishanekon: World Shapers. It has been out for over two years, it is free, and it has a ton of character options. Its primary focus is to help you build whatever you can imagine. It has 140 Sub-Archetypes, over 800 Abilities, 500+ Talents and more.

[@GlenFinney]

Really good appraisal of the current game landscape.

[@BanyanTree1]

Are game mechanics actually a big concern for trying new games? I haven't played in over 20 years but my old group played D&D 2E by default but occasionally switch to GURPS Rifts or World of Darkness games or Shadowrun or Feng Shui. Heck, we once flipped from Call of Cthulhu to Twilight 2000. I don't recall anyone ever saying that switching systems was a chore or even talking about it beyond learning them. I've watched a few videos like this and switching systems seems to be a recurring concern. Maybe it was just my old group that didn't mind or maybe the culture of what I called RPGs (as opposed to Computer CRPGs) has changed?

[@joanmoriarity8738]

Back then the barrier to entry for the hobby was much higher. Anyone who took the trouble to learn one RPG could easily do another. There's a much wider audience now that includes people who need more support getting started. We can help them or ignore them, but if we ignore them they'll stick with systems that offer the most support. Right now that means 5E.

[@tabletopbro]

Solid video! I'm curious what you mean by "each class is a minigame," it sounds super interesting!

[@polyhedron3386]

So for example the rouge has this momentum mechanic that they need to track and do different things with to power their moves, almost like these little meta-currencies specific to your class. It's all pretty straightforward but the class gives you a lot to play with. I think you would like it's right in the middle between the rigidness of 5e to the narrative chaos of Dungeon World. Hey I'll play either of those games with you if you're up for it :)

[@swordsnstones]

no killing just playing what we want, OSR, NSR,, something ....SR whatever, have fun, reasons i went my own way with my own game, tired of the debates, Keep 'em Rollin'

[@TheLyricalCleric]

In my game last week, I whiffed one roll at the start of combat and ended up running away from the big bad enemy terrified. I ran for the entire turn. Four players and 10 minutes of resolving dice later, I could make my saving throw to stop the fear effect. Four players and almost 20 minutes later, and I could finally get into the room to do the thing I had wanted to do 30 minutes prior. And that’s with a relatively good GM who doesn’t over explain and tries to resolve turns quickly. 5e has a HUGE action economy problem, a HUGE turn length problem. It’s not going to be solved by splat books with even MORE character options like weapon masteries. If anything, turns will take even longer to resolve going forward. How does 13th Age solve this problem?

[@bonzwah1]

Honestly, a round in 10 minutes for a party of 5 ain't bad. It seems to me that you are right in giving your GM credit for running combat pretty smoothly. The issue sounds to me not that there is a turn length problem, but just that you don't enjoy having your character get hit by effects that waste your turn. You took 1 turn per 10 minutes, which sounds reasonably fun to me (parties of 5 are, imo, riding the line for what is manageably fun at a DND 5e table). It sounds to me that if you had done 3 meaningful things in 30 minutes that you would have had plenty of fun. The main issue is failing a saving throw against an effect that wasted two of your turns. For me, that's not a turn length problem, that's a monster design problem. Talk to your GM and tell them that it's no fun to get disabled by monster abilities. Imo, the player and monster experience is asymmetrical. Just because players can do certain things, doesn't mean monsters should be able to. My personally rule of thumb is that players should always be able to make a choice on their turn. I'm also curious if 13th age takes this mentality and designs monsters to ensure that abilities are threatening to the characters without robbing the players of the ability to play the game.

[@polyhedron3386]

Sort of. There's a mechanic in 13th Age called the escalation die, not to get too much into it but attacks get stronger the more rounds combat goes, so usually by round 4-5 people are hitting on most attacks and dealing lots of damage. Most attacks also deal damage on a miss, I found combat to be way faster, more dynamic, and more cinematic compared to 5e.

[@SimonRogers]

@@bonzwah1 we don't like effects which stop players doing stuff - stun, for example, is very rare. Fear doesn't make you run away. The entire design is asymmetrical - we don't care if monsters are bored!

[@alexabel8010]

Would you be open to running a 13th game for any of your viewers who are interested? Because I'm pretty interested and would like a shot at playing!

[@polyhedron3386]

Interesting idea! Don't think I can take another game right now but maybe in the near future!

[@michaelmaguire8043]

D&D killer? If anyone is going to do it, it will be wizards of the coast.

[@bonzwah1]

Is there good digital support for 13th age? My players and I have become increasingly spoiled by digital support and now struggle to play games with even a little bit of complexity without digital support. Been running daggerheart recently and my goodness the digital character sheet they have there is crazy good. It honestly feels like playing a video game in terms of smoothness, but of course having that narrative freedom that comes with the game being run by a human being rather than preprogrammed software. The experience has honestly spoiled us

[@polyhedron3386]

Probably not as good as that, but I used the Foundry VTT support for 13th Age and it's pretty good.

[@SpectreWulf]

Yep Foundry VTT has an unofficial support for the system based on the 13th Age 1.0 SRD. It's amazing! Now after the successful 2e kickstarter they have promised official support for Foundry VTT and Roll20

[@BB99730]

Do you think basic fantasy will be a good start for a group with no experience in ttrpg?

[@ckaldariaq5904]

DnD should fade away until the rights are sold to a company that isnt soul draining and manipulative.

[@pedrop676]

13th Age just had a Kickstarter and I've heard none of it!? Awful for me, a blessing for my wallet. 😅

[@polyhedron3386]

You could always late pledge lol

[@pedrop676]

@@polyhedron3386 😢

[@Joshuadmathews]

Kind of in my head, in an alternate world, Castle & Crusades was 3e (natural progression from AD&D 2e slimmed back to basic mechanics that incorporate the d20 system and had Gygax onboard) and 13th age was 5e (lead designers of 3e and 4e designed it and took the best from both games and simplified both systems)--- I would also add that I think both C&C is better than 3e in my opinion and 13th Age is better than 5e in my opinion. If one wants OSR and 80s feel D&D, C&C has that in spades (and I believe was first on the market before there was a movement?) or if you want 2000s' "Heroic Fantasy" Avengers style D&D, 13th Age is the answer for that.

[@tabletopbro]

How is C&C? I bought the rulebook and I really wanna run a campaign with it.

[@Joshuadmathews]

@@tabletopbro In a word, D&D is great to have for resources, but C&C is the game to play. I got swayed in roleplaying games in college. Having not grown up playing rpgs, I struggled to wrap my head around the "concepts", at the time I bought 4e's red box-- but anything D&D just seemed over my head. The first rpg I bought that explained things enough for me was Pelgrane Presses Owl Hoot Trail (based on microd20 and highly recommended). I was DMing by the next day. I then wanted to try D&D so I bought the 90s AD&D 2e box set, First Quest, but bought C&C when I bought Owl Hoot Trail. Whereas I had difficulty still understanding AD&D 2e, I didn't have diffulcty understanding C&C (found an online post on how to convert pre 3e monsters to C&C) and solo played that whole box in one or two nights (the only rule I got wrong was that Dex adds to AC) but what that really did is that made me approach the modules OSR style and think of ways to puzzle my way through the encounters with minimal combat--- this box came with a cd for Dungeon Mastering / music and sound effects so it was a blast). C&C predates the OSR movement (and Basic Fantasy) and I think I've heard comments where others saw 5e pillage some ideas from it. By this time OSR stuff is a well oiled machine BUT for someone wanting to get a feel for "original D&D" but easy to jump in with no prior experience, C&C is that rollercoaster line to jump in. Its the first system to take the d20 system and emulate BX/AD&D, its the first system to figure out how to convert 3e back into either BX or AD&D (or vice-versa), and the Siege Engine mechanic allows for quick and easy conversion from 3e's skill challenges OR pre-d20 Saves (making it easier to Solo). And its still kind of deadly and so will require that original 80s D&D problem solving dungeon crawl experiences versus turning each encounter into a skirmish/battlemap game (which isn't a slant against that style of gaming but C&C for sure can all be done "theater of the mind").

[@spacce1898]

I ran a campaign of this. I love the system, but It needs a new rulebook from the beginning. I loved the system. but the book has issue teaching from not knowing the system. it had aspects that changed from the release to a couple of months out.

[@polyhedron3386]

Yeah the original 13th age book definitely assumes you already know D&D. I hope they change that in 2e.

[@emperorxander666]

daggerheart sucks only even consited because of CR and it hold all the problems people have have with 5.5 on steroids.

[@SteveAkaDarktimes]

honestly, Daggerheart is so expansive that I could only judge it in action. but I am curious, what problems does it share?

[@bartell20j]

Is different better?

[@wearywyvern3359]

5:31 I'm curious why you think professor dungeon master would be talking about this game? I don't see him entertaining anything that's even tangentially related to 4e. It has more than two mechanics and hit points aren't capped at a D4, he wouldn't like it.

[@polyhedron3386]

lol fair

[@malvikvran3737]

Alright, no. You lost me when you said made by the same people that made 4th edition d&d. You further lost me and turned me away from trying this game by asserting that it was the correct and only game we should be playing. You don't have the Charisma score high enough to make that sound anything but condescending. So no, I will not be trying this game.

[@spudsbuchlaw]

People who think a "5e killer" is a bunch of houserules for 5e haven't played 3rd edition

[@lucasterable]

Too many games

[@Blink-cx8eh]

One thing KS has shown me is that traditional designers are bad at marketing, KZbinr KS have much bigger hauls. Whether 13A, Shadow of the Weird Wizard or ToV, they all pale next to DC20, MCDM RPG or even Shadowdark (a one person project…) Personally I like what I have seen from SotWW, not impressed with 5e 2024

[@bamboozledgreatcrowd8982]

Is something you never heard of called a "silent" killer. There will never be a D&D killer we really need to stop saying that phrase to get views and likes.

[@SchizoidPersonoid]

WotC is the true D&D killer. 3e sucked and it's only gotten worse since then.

[@DrWaites]

Ok. This is going to sound wild. I've run a couple campaigns in 13th Age 1e in the past. My current group is searching for alternatives to 5e. I pledged to support the 13th Age KS. Then I cancelled my pledge. The reason: they botched the marketing and promotion. No Liveplays. No interviews with the designers. I had a couple emails from a guy on the marketing team, but nothing from the designers. It's like the project was an afterthought. Overall, 13A 2 got funded, but it was a disappointing showing - it should've made 5X as much. The KS demonstrated that the company doesn't know how to promote their game or grow their brand. And if there isn't buzz or interest during the height of a crowd funding campaign, you can bet no one will be talking about this in a year.

[@polyhedron3386]

I will be talking about it 😭

[@taragnor]

Unfortunately good game designers aren't necessarily good at marketing.

[@DrWaites]

@@taragnor I can understand that, but promotion is still vital to the success of a product. In the case of 13A, the first edition has been out over a decade, so the design of the 2e should've been progressed enough to have the designers (or at least, some talking heads) to promote it. Dungeon Coach did more promotion in one day than 13A did in its entire campaign. In today's environment, if people aren't talking about your game, it's not going to build the community it needs to thrive.

[@taragnor]

@@DrWaites Yeah, promotion is vital for wide market success. There's a reason 13A 1st edition is barely heard of, despite being a great game. They're just not great at marketing it. If you just want something that is just a well-marketed commercial success, D&D is the way to go. It's always going to be easier to recruit for D&D or find a game of D&D, because it's a massive name brand and a marketing powerhouse. Is mass market success necessary? I don't think so. As long as they put out a book on par with the quality of the original 13A 1st edition stuff, I'll be happy. I'd rather play RPGs made by designers that produce a good product, sometimes that means buying from a designer who isn't a great marketer. TTRPGs aren't like a video game where the servers get shut down and you can't play anymore. Having an influx of players for an indie TTRPG just isn't a huge deal for me, because I figure I'll be recruiting anyway. If you can get your group to try anything non-D&D, you'll probably be able to sell them on trying 13th Age. Then it'll just be the quality of the game that sells it.

[@DrWaites]

@@taragnor yeah, but it's easier to sell it when my players have heard of it. Like, if I can show them a video from Dungeon Coach, Matt Coville, Ben Milton talking about OSE, or anything else. As the GM, am I going to get reviews of products like adventures and bestiaries? Am I going to even know when supplements are being released? Judging from the past with 13A, it doesn't seem likely.

[@Apeiron242]

#boycottWotC

[@flavorgod]

Pelagrane Press is woke though.

[@Halfling.Paladin]

No. If you buy the new hasbro books, it's not ok. Supporting this company at this juncture is morally unjustifiable. Stop dnd now.

[@polyhedron3386]

I get that perspective, and I think many have stopped buying from them, myself included. I just think most of the things we hate about Hasbro are also true about Apple, Microsoft, Samsung, Amazon and most other corporations we regularly buy from. It's not about "well everything is bad so it's ok to do bad things", but I think people should be free to prioritize what they care more about and how they want to vote with their dollars. One person might decide that Hasbro is the company they never buy from again, while someone else decides they'll never buy from Apple. Both people could easily get into a "how could you buy from this company" argument while the reality is they are just prioritizing. Most people don't really have the time and mental bandwidth to care about absolutely everything, I know I don't. For example, many of my friends are vegan, and I totally get their arguments for why, I agree with all of it. So they are frustrated by the fact I still eat meat. The reality is I just don't have the energy to make that big of a change in my life and commit to it, I care about, but it's not high enough on my priority list. But there are other causes I'm very passionate about and will go out of my way to work towards. Sounds like you're passionate about what Hasbro is doing to the hobby, which is a noble and valid cause (which I agree with, and mostly I don't buy from WotC besides some 3.5 Eberron stuff on DMsguild), but for someone else - maybe D&D is what their group likes, it makes them happy, they don't have time/energy to make a big change, they have already invested time and money in books and playing, and they just want to play their game and get excited when new books come out - and that's ok.

[@Halfling.Paladin]

@@polyhedron3386 Well, see, 1: DnD is a luxury item entirely. It's not needed for survival. It's not used to operate in the modern world, it's a toy. If it were the only ttrpg, it would still be easy to put away forever. 2: DnD is a print product. You've already bought the damn thing. Don't buy anymore. Game is perfectly playable from the white box in the 70s. OSRIC is free online. You can play without buying. Easily. 3: DnD is NOT the only product of it's kind. Pathfinder is almost identical. (So it sucks, frankly, but if this dwarf prom stuff us your thing, PF2 is also a dwarf prom game) WHFRP is far more realistic and immersive OSE is far, far more flexible and much less demanding on the gm to run Blades In The Dark is much more compelling World of Darkness is far deeper. So on, so forth. Buying any hasbro product is morally unjustifiable. If you do it, I view you in disdain.

[@vee-bee-a]

Of course I, too, want these Coast‑dwelling Wizards dead. They killed off games that I know and still love to this day! Happy 20th anniversary... To that dead game. 🥲😥