The TRUTH About Wickens’ Cohabited Leopard Geckos

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This week's episode is a Round Table Discussion focused on the Leopard Gecko cohabiting controversy sparked by Adam Wickens of Wickens Wicked Reptiles a few weeks ago. We are joined by Adam Wickens, Liam Sinclair of Reptiles & Research, and Ellie Hills of Hills Herptiles to discuss whether or not leopard geckos can safely be housed together, as well as cohabiting reptiles on a broader scope, including how to safely cohabit your animals, the various types of cohabiting situations and which species work best for cohabiting.
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Video Clips and Photos Used in Episode:
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0:00 Coming Up
2:24 Welcome Adam, Liam & Ellie - Overview of Controversy
9:07 Issues Adam Has Had with the Setup Thus Far
11:07 Reptile Keeper Mob Mentality
23:08 Rules Reptile Keepers MUST Follow
34:11 Tomaskas Ltd.
35:34 How Adam Monitors the Geckos Health
40:00 Peer-Reviewed Evidence to Support Leopard Gecko Colonies
43:02 Everyone's Cohabiting Experience
1:03:08 Types of Cohabiting
1:08:13 Tips for Starting a Cohab Setup
1:27:00 Closing Thoughts
1:30:00 Outro
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ABOUT DILLON:
Welcome to my channel, Animals at Home! Here you will find the reptile videos I have made as well as video versions of The Animals at Home Podcast! The podcast mainly focuses on the pet reptile industry. My mission with Animals at Home is simple: To inspire others to push the limits of their reptile husbandry by promoting the importance of high-level, creative husbandry individualized for each reptile.
• Why don’t Pet Stores S...

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

*Thank you for watching the episode! Share your thoughts below! To support the podcast, please visit:* www.patreon.com/animalsathome

[@anne-lenebakken5827]

Jeg blir lei meg 😢 Dere kan ikke si sånnt! Tenk å mange som ser, og helt feil info Dere gir på mye her 😢

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

@@anne-lenebakken5827 sorry you feel that way!

[@anne-lenebakken5827]

@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Det som hadde vært kult og bra er om dere hadde kommet med mere fakta, slik vi kan lære. En regel liste. For noen sier det og andre sier ikke det.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

@@anne-lenebakken5827 we did an episode like that already, it covers most of the basics for how to cohabit properly. Here you go: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rl7Hk32YpZJlg6Msi=swY4dHyZbfLj1EqJ

[@anne-lenebakken5827]

@@AnimalsatHomePodcast No no no, this i not like .

[@margiewalker1808]

It’s like people have forgotten that these animals don’t live in boxes in the wild.

[@trabash505]

Exactly. Captivity will never be the wild. It's 4 walls. And why wild behavior shouldn't be a justification for nonsense.

[@darcieclements4880]

I think the one gal was confused by people saying that in the wild they have a way to escape because it sounded like she was thinking that oh no they don't because of predation but when biologist or behavior is to saying that what we mean is that the social structures can form naturally and appropriately for who is distributed where because there is no definitive bounds other than those imposed by the general landscape. If you have a large enough enclosure in captivity you're fine and your animals will probably be more confident then say a wild animal would be to vacate if there's a squabble, but in the wild they have the opportunity to set up their positioning relative to one another from the start which is not available to them in captivity if there is not enough space. I hope that that makes it a little bit easier to understand but there are entire courses on this part of ecology and behavior so it's a little hard to shove into a nutshell.... Oh yeah and a big part of the boundary thing is actually mating aggression where basically males will kill and rape females corpses over and over again in some species because they're out of their mind. In other species you can have the males that will have a naturally defined okay I've chased this other male far enough away therefore I win built in and then if you put them into a smaller space than that built in concept of I win instead of letting the other male bow out they will chase them down and kill them because again they are out of their mind currently. Day to day behavior can be very different from breading behavior so when people are setting up cohab like is done in zoos where you may even have multiple species in a single giant enclosure we have to be taking into account all of that behavior information and not oversimplifying the behavior. And as someone else pointed out on this watch out for the individual dick animal because those happen... more frequently than I would like.

[@anne-lenebakken5827]

@@trabash505 Agree♡

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

Really fun discussion my friends! Thanks for having me on. I really hope we as a hobby can grow together and stop holding old ideas as fact without and research when contrary opinions and information are presented.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks for jumping on the episode, Adam!

[@joshuarosenblatt]

Covid broke humanity’s last few brain cells. Looking forward to watching this!

[@fordguy2836]

@WickensWickedReptiles the fact that you have integrity in your videos and what you tell us even when admitting your wrong and correcting it on top of that a lot of your tips have became practices for my own pets and your top 5’s have also shown me the other kind of other pets I didn’t think I’d own like dumpy tree frogs or even my ball python sorry for the rambling I just owe you a huge thank you

[@YochevedDesigns]

The idea that anyone would think that you would do anything intentionally to stress any of your animals just blows my mind. They obviously haven't been following you for very long, and love to spout opinions just to make themselves seem "smart". I know that if you had an aggro gecko you would know that they weren't a good candidate for cohabbing.

[@joshuarosenblatt]

@@YochevedDesigns it’s truly mob mentality. And it’s now surfaced in every interest Follow the current dogma or your evil.

[@IsaacsonSeth]

A big potential benefit of cohabitation is mental stimulation/enrichment. It prevents them from living in a stagnant environment without any other signs of life.

[@ReptilesandResearch]

Thanks for having us!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks for joining us!

[@bullfrogjay4383]

I adopted 4 Leos that were cohabed and they do very well together. I tried separating them initially due to standard practice and they did not do well. I returned them to thier large enclosure and they thrived. I feed them individually and they all chill in the hydration chamber or heated den together. They love being together. I call them the golden girls. I have been absolutely flamed by reptile people for cohabing them but they do well so I just ignore it.

[@vortex4238]

One of my favorite discussions with people is cohabiting leopard geckos. It stunned me when I found out they live in colonies, and makes me so sad to see them isolated so often in captivity. I'm currently saving up for my first leopard gecko colony setup. I've kept a pair of siblings together in the past before one of them died from a medical condition. They never had any issues and spend every day together for 5 years after I took them in from their former owner. (They were living together before I took them in.) Thanks for the great video. :)

[@j.ifreeman9914]

I can’t imagine having to explain something I spent money, time and research to ppl that only spend money and time to listen unqualified resources

[@caughtafaygo]

I agree whole heartedly with what adam says about internet and people hiding behind keyboards and theyre comfortable being A-holes. Super cool episode

[@darcieclements4880]

Honestly I don't think it's something that people do intentionally either, it's something to do with just being alone and seeing something that makes you angry and then the fleeting thoughts that might go through your mind instead end up on the keyboard and out into the world where they can hurt people. I have gotten up in the middle of the night realizing that I have fallen into this trap and had to dig around desperately try and do find the why did I even make that post I'm not contributing at all in a positive way situation so that I can hopefully delete it but sometimes I can never even find a thing again. I'd like to think that most people try not to do this and it's simply the nature of social media that makes it difficult for us to even police ourselves.

[@anne-lenebakken5827]

Leser du selv hva du skrev her? Er dere hjernedøde😮

[@kylecorn5056]

While I personally would not have done what Adam did, I don't think it's remotely something he should have his character attacked over. He had research and evidence from multiple good sources he was going off of when he did it, and he monitored their health closely throughout the process in the event things went poorly. Moreover, most of the discussion, at least from what I saw, stopped being about the animals very quickly, and just turned into mudslinging and appeals to emotion rather than actually discussing what the evidence suggests is best for the animals. If the evidence suggests this isn't a good idea in the future, we shouldn't encourage it. If it suggests that this can be done and potentially benefits them, then maybe it's worth looking into. Idk either way, but that's not really what I saw being discussed when this all went down.

[@HillsHerptiles]

I had a blast! Thank you for letting me be a part of the discussion!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks for joining us, Ellie!

[@thecaffeinatedlizard]

Interacting with Adams video showing the tour sent me down the rabbit hole. I looked into it and he explained how he came to the decision. I also did some reading and checked other channels. Would i put 6 together? No. Can i respect that he knows how? Sure!

[@loktaiextatus]

This is going to sound funny but.. I started keeping leopard geckos in about the mid 90s. Where did I get them... local pet stores. They told me nothing about not keeping them together. I was keeping them in 40 breeders- so smaller than what we are talking about here- but the old critter cage slide off screen top 40 breeders and 30 breeders. I had them for years. I bought multiple, raised them together as babies.... I... Just didnt pay attention to any "static" or even talk about my leopard geckos with people other than to say I had them. My leopard geckos bred... I had baby leopard geckos. I never had any serious problems with them. In total I owned maybe 30 leopard geckos and I never kept any of them fully alone to my recollection.... I just thought you could HAVE leopard geckos... but I always had my cages very densely decorated and covered in different tings. I used to buy low ceramic pots, and break an edge off them the same as I did for my african cichlids and others to make "caves" and I would keep live plants in there (in their existing pots just standing there and they'd slowly waste away admittedly and Id just get new ones and move those to the window sill or porch to recover). I just kept them together in multiple setups until about 2009 when I went overseas and cleared out everything I had.... So I guess I was doing that for around 15 years or so. The controversy is NEWS to me.

[@maximumreptile]

Great discussion all, and for us just had to say how nice it was to see all three channels featuring our enclosures 💌

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

😎 thank you!!

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

You make AMAZING enclosures

[@SeagraveSerpentarium]

A lot of rules really are just guidelines. My wife's ball python is a bit young and kind of small for his hides. Someone might reasonably see his enclosure and say "those hides are way too big he'll never feel safe in there what are you doing???" but the thing is this snake as a 6 month old ball python is as brave and curious as my 2 year old corn snake. His behavior when he smells a rodent is comparable to the food response I've seen in videos of retics. I regularly see him out exploring his enclosure, and he has never turned down a meal for me. If he starts to give any indication of feeling stressed and insecure my first step will be to get him some smaller hides, and when I first set him up I was fully prepared to have to do that at the first sign of a problem. He's also already in a 4x2 enclosure despite only being about 2 feet long himself. Again some might say that will make him feel insecure but I'm telling you this little guy is fearless and loving the upgrade. Maybe other ball pythons of the same age and size wouldn't thrive in the enclosure we have for ours, but this particular ball python most definitely is thriving under these conditions even if some of my husbandry practices stray from the conventional wisdom of "snake luv bug hole, shoebox is like bug hole."

[@kirillukin2222]

Agree with not having to be asthetically pleasing

[@flockofffarm8851]

I love this podcast! Especially this episode. The encouragement to research and question and learn and advance is a great message! You all are great, ty for being such great ambassadors for all reptiles and keepers

[@PrairieExotics]

Great video and topic! I've cohabbed many different species in various ways. My favorite was multiple cresties, gargoyles and chewies, in the wild they're often found on the same trees at various levels.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks for watching, Steve! 🙂

[@tipping_scales]

That Reptiles and Research episode was sooo good. Really enjoyed this one too! Another great episode all of you

[@yoshinowa1]

So many ideas that are set in the hobby like "they will be stressed in too big of an enclosure", this is a great episode that doesn't just cover the cohabbing topic but also where these ideas come from. It's so hard to change people their mindset on some things, so much we can still learn! No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes, not wanting to change or accept that there are different ways of doing things says more about these people than anything else really. :p I really didn't get the backlash WWR received for the cohabbing video. There is a good explanation, proper sourcing on the information he was using and yet some internet warriors that read a 10 year old guide that says they should be kept solitary thinks they know it all. :p

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Exactly, very well said!

[@joshuarosenblatt]

It’s all tribal. You need to agree with the mob or you’re not just wrong but eeeevil. It’s beyond stupid

[@sneekyalexa2657]

Bro what...I know you have a fantastic enclosure for your FWC, but Adam's research was literally based on a 2009 article, so the issue is the reverse, his source was the 10+ year old one?? People know better not to cohab leos because of the issues that occur and all of the injured and k!lled individuals. So I'm struggling to see how you with the enclosures you've made don't see the issues here. The enclosure Adam has is barely the suggested size for one leo, let alone 2+. 😅 may you please try to reasonably rationalize this?

[@yoshinowa1]

@sneekyalexa2657 I meant that in general, that people tend to follow old ideas and most guidelines people follow for setup and care are very old. Yes the research Adam used was also 10years old. But I'm pretty sure the people attacking him over it aren't reading scientific articles and research done on wild populations, they go to the old careguides from other keepers. As an example, people still think small enclosures are good, that a rack is perfect for adult snakes without anything in it etc, mostly due to old careguides that are still followed. The discussion here isn't if he did it correctly or not, it's that people say it shouldn't be done, as if it isn't possible under any circumstances. Now that is just plain wrong if they live communally in the wild. If there might be actual benefit in keeping them together, why not look into that more. Rather than be open to this idea and having proper talks about it on how to improve the setups to support this, people just go attack him, say it shouldn't be done because they've read it once and so they are right. :p

[@anne-lenebakken5827]

@@sneekyalexa2657 Ditto

[@willexotic]

This was super good

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Glad you enjoyed it, thanks for watching!

[@krittercandyexotics]

Huge props to Adam. He has definitely inspired me to be more open about some things im successfully experimenting with in Herpetoculture, regardless if some tik tok kids try to cancel me. Tik tok is my largest platform and ive often catered to my audience while neglecting some of my interests. THAT is silly goose stuff.

[@matg919]

Great video.

[@juanitabolster2483]

I had my two sister Leopard Geckos together for 8 or 9 years, then one day a tail was missing and it was nowhere to be seen! I separated them for a while until the tail was regrowing, put them back together, and there was a bite mark again on her tail, so.... they live in separate vivs now for 4 years, and seem fine, at least the tail is nearly regrown now?

[@acaciaballpythons]

Lol the snakes behind Adam tryin to get camera time😆

[@kirillukin2222]

Would be great to see research that isnt only the kkhan paper just dor more info

[@piguy5645]

Astounded that keeping a group of leopard geckos together was even a big deal on the internet. I guess the younger generations of herp keepers no longer remember their roots. Ron Tremper practically invented breeding leopard geckos and produced most of the morphs out there today, breeding his geckos for over 30 generations and well over 30 years. His long lived, very healthy geckos over these generations have been kept in very simple set ups in breeding groups, sometimes a male cycled through several tubs with a female or two or three per tub, sometimes a male was kept with many more females. A complex and super roomy environment is not necessary to do this successfully- something simple with a reasonable amount of space works fine. Everything else, like the interestingly complex environment with sticks and bricks in the 4'x2'x2' enclosure shown is just a bonus for the geckos and probably even moreso a bonus for the owner who is observing the animals in the more complex environment. Honestly, the geckos might not care that much about the extra complexity of the environment unless it allows for natural behaviors like hiding under rocks and creating burrow tunnels, which almost nobody provides. Something is messed up with people these days when they feel that because they imagine something might be so, it must be correct and is then the only moral standard rather than wondering if they might not understand everything and thinking further and trialing husbandry to learn something when they discover that someone is doing something differently apparently successfully that is different than their theory about how it should be. People should not be so confident about things they have never tried for themselves, even when the thing they are confident about is mindlessly parroted by thousands of people who have also never tried for themselves. This is one of many superstitious beliefs parroted in the hobby that are not so. The chameleon caging was another really good example that I saw started by 2 people who edited the CIN newsletter and it then got passed around and older breeders who were breeding in glass tanks prior to those two editors pushing the screen enclosures were told to shut up their method was not moral back in the day. Everyone who wanted to try a glass tank was beaten into silence by the loud parrots for about 20 years until someone who was respected in the community and who was also working in academia came forward and insisted that glass tanks were fine as long as they were the front opening kind. It is a big deal because this kind of thing prevents well-intentioned individuals from trying things and learning more about what is the best way for their situation. Progress and insights are never made by those who do things the same way as everyone else.

[@rdnkenki]

Excellent ❤

[@timothy440]

Craziest cohab I ever seen andwouldn’t recommend this but this worked out for a couple of that came into the pet store I use to work for . a veiled chameleon, tokay, and fire bellied toads . It was beautiful setup but how everything didn’t kill each other is beyond me 😂. Great episode and this whole thing adam has been dealing with has been ridiculous.

[@lboss875]

I was REALLY interested to hear this podcast. It ties strongly with the previously aired podcast on applying aquarium concepts to herpetoculture, and I 100% agree that the hobby, as a whole, has become stagnant with regard to experimentation. The comments Jamie (ep 190) made in regard to bio feedback, or the lack thereof, in our animals enclosures has been living rent free in my head ever since. I happen to live in a small apartment with a dedicated reptile/fish room so theres quite a bit of bubbling and humans stomping around so I "think" we're providing something other than complete silence, but I'm preparing for a huge 7 animal enclosure update and this will absolutely be a consideration while im designing. But I won't post about it. I won't discuss it with anyone, because I dont need some overzealous 20 year old doxing me because they know better because, as Adam mentioned, someone told them it was that way. I think y'all are brave and absolutely essential to these discussions. Both in raising them and in examining them. Thank you to all of you for what you do. Side note Dillon, heading to Patreon now...ty❤

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Sounds like a really interesting future project, Laura! You’ll have to keep some of us posted… In secret, of course 😂 thank you so much for the support, it’s very much appreciated! 🙏🏻

[@letstalkherps4937]

Love this one 👏 👏

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks for listening

[@robhutchanimation]

I posted on both Liam's and Adam's vids with my views and more detailed critiques. Sum up my thoughts: I think Adam missed out on an oppurtunity to create a real discussion about cohabbing. His first video lacked information and was far too casual, ultimately sending the wrong message by making it one of those "setting up a lizard cage for zero dollars!" vids. Even if he still did 6 geckos, but built an elaborate custom background with tunnels and hides all up and down it, his video could have started a proper discussion about how to set up a successful cohab.

[@erisi6204]

This imo. It could have been a great video. The follow ups seem more interested in gotcha nessaging rather than serious contributions to the field, perhaps besides the Reptiles and Resesrch episode.

[@robhutchanimation]

@erisi6204 That's the same vibe I got from the follow-up video, too. I'm not against cohabbing, but the lack of information in the first video and the tone of the 2nd video didn't do it for me.

[@jenniferg7757]

Can you link research on leopard gecko cohabitation please? Or post who to look up? Everything I'm finding with my limited knowledge of how to research

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

I believe Liam walks through the peer reviewed work in his video kzbin.info/www/bejne/d5evmoBnbJd_aqMsi=x5qjdweidKergliT

[@letstalkherps4937]

Adam’s retics are in an arms race with no arms.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

😂😂 that is the problem with retics… They’ll do that from time to time

[@saraellman7844]

I house 2 special needs female leopard geckos together in a 48x24x18 that in fact is a Dubia enclosure. I also house 4 female fat tail geckos in the identical enclosure. My enclosures are heavily scaped with many hiding places. Despite the many hiding places they are almost always together. With that said, I monitor their behavior and feeding daily, always looking for signs of trouble. There have never been any issues and both are very healthy and appear content. I believe this reaction to Adam housing his geckos in this manner is more than a bit overblown. Of course this is social media, over reacting is it’s mainstay. Without endless drama, how would social media ever survive. People are so much more aggressive when they are not standing in front of you. I am not sure that I would have chosen to put 6 in a single enclosure, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t work. This is NOT animal abuse people chill out!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks for watching the episode and adding your thoughts as well!

[@jabearquadpilot9615]

It is always dangerous to deal in absolutes

[@jonathanyoungblood8676]

People are so quick to throw shade and I seen the KZbinr trying to hang Adam , that guy literally put out a video right before that talking about canceling garden state tortoise over his video when he picked up a bunch of tortoises and had to riding in the back seat not in separate boxes and 1 was picking on the other 1 . I personally think Adam is smart and brings a lot of good to the hobby. Great discussions and cohabitation is fine as long as you do it properly. I have a tegu that free roams and most of the time he’s just chilling in my red foot tortoise pin I also have to male ball pythons that share a 6x2 and have been together since I got them 3 yrs ago 🤷‍♂️

[@caitwn8548]

This is a bit of a clickbait title, which I guess sums up a lot of my issue with the whole incident. Yes, thoughtful and reasoned info on cohabbing is always welcome. The fact that the geckos were cohabbed was never my problem, and is not the reason I'm no longer one of his subscribers. It was the way he (and others) responded to the controversy. You're right that for some it's fun to be part of an internet 'mob'. And for some it's also fun to respond in kind. But for some of us, snark wars aren't appealing or interesting, and the more they escalated, the more I was turned off. There are people in the hobby who face a lot of criticism and questioning because they are pushing past old-school 'folklore' husbandry, but who respond with grace and facts, and then refuse to engage or inflame things further. Those are the people who get my views (you are one of them). I'm just one viewer and unimportant in the greater scheme of internet viewership but I don't think I'm alone in this perspective. There's currently a fair amount of info out there on how and when to cohab. There's less focus on how to handle controversy - probably because for many content creators, directly engaging in controversy or making videos in response to controversy means more views.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

I definitely agree with your sentiment! The only thing I would pushback on is the clickbait accusation. It is virtually impossible to use clickbait on a 90+ min video that lacks visually stimulating content. Clickbait only "works" (by works I mean, instructs the algorithm to promote your video) if people watch at least 50-70% of the video. It is easy to trick someone into watching a 5 min video (even if they are lied to by the title and end up disappointed). You can't trick someone into watching 50-70% of a 90 min video. And if the viewer doesn't reach the 50-70% threshold of the video, it is very damaging to the videos performance. The title/thumbnail is certainly suggestive, but it's not a lie (which is what clickbait is). You know me, I don't normally play these games. But sometimes, I need to in order to justify my time spent doing this (I often wonder if it will ever pay off... you don't want to look at my books lol). Thank you as always for your support :)

[@savagecritters3333]

This was a good show I think it’s important that as keeper we move forward I know 6 years ago when I put my first bio active together I was told I was going to kill them cause they would eat the dirt and die now days bio active is a growing industry for all reptiles it amazing what time and keepers trying things can change

[@coldbloodedwise]

I definitely cohabitate my Leopard geckos with other reptiles and have no problems as long as everyones requirements are met

[@Cold_Blooded_Gems_]

Every petco on the east coast has 10 in an enclosure together 🤣🤷🏻‍♂️ if these guys didn’t have a keyboard, trust me they would have nothing to say 🤷🏻‍♂️ your talking about a bunch of new people joining the hobby ,living and keeping animals based off of FB hear say 🤷🏻‍♂️ and it’s to be expected imo, look how big the community has gotten, look how fast it’s grown … and look at the society these people are being raised in , it’s popular to side with who and what is popular 🤷🏻‍♂️ I grew up in the 80’s , we had no internet. We had trial and error 🤷🏻‍♂️ something worked or it didn’t . And one’s observation was the deciding factor, not someone who knows someone who heard from someone 🤷🏻‍♂️. I saw a short not long ago of a leopard gecko in a 6qt bin with no substrate of any kind , and an empty water dish . It had 24k likes 🤔 this whole situation is ridiculous!

[@sneekyalexa2657]

Every petco or petsmart has injured or sick animals in the back that they have out of public view, so this isn't the best thing to try and prove the point with. Plenty of geckos in the chain stores do harm one another and most of the common public don't realize or bat an eye about it simply because they never even considered it as something that could happen. On the other hand this is an interesting topic overall and they've covered things I haven't previously considered, though I am still listening in.

[@deannacorey5650]

Totally an Adam fan!! I have co-habbed Leo's and they do very well. I see many positive social behaviors between them within the enclosures. Adam knows exactly what he is doing! Sometimes social media can be so toxic. Ignorance and parroting run rampant!

[@Lizardliker]

Watching now, you got all the good ingredients, now make me a cake 🏆💪🦎❤️.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Haha hope you enjoy!

[@OctopusWithNoFriends]

Everyone keeping their snakes in tubs looking real nervous right about now... Seriously, anyone with a brain realizes that the way 60% of snakes are kept is 99% worse than cohabbing leopard geckos. ESPECIALLY in a 4 foot Viv. ESPECIALLY since Leo's have ALWAYS been cohabbed anyway. Ridiculous.

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

Bingo!

[@OctopusWithNoFriends]

@@WickensWickedReptiles I legitimately feel bad that this is happening to you my man. I know you know, but you don't deserve all the spite. ✊🏼🐙💜

[@kirillukin2222]

Definitely better than keeping a gecko in a tub

[@sneekyalexa2657]

Tub situations are their own topic, but to compare an individual animal isolated from the others around them isn't really a fair comparison as cohabbing two geckos can mean lost limbs and other injuries when one bites the other.

[@OctopusWithNoFriends]

@@sneekyalexa2657 sticking an animal in a tiny little tub by itself with nothing to do no where to go (ohhh), is also injurious to the animal. Just in a longer timeframe. *Shrug*

[@dacisky]

I have co habed rats,mice ,rabbits and fish. I really miss that experience and find co habing leos to be fascinating.

[@AlexP12526]

What did the fish think, living with rabbits and mice?

[@YochevedDesigns]

@@AlexP12526 🤣

[@margiewalker1808]

The moral of the story, know your shit!

[@darcieclements4880]

Or maybe just you know if something makes you angry on the internet just quickly verify that what you think to be true is actually true before you go off the handle.

[@danieltinch4497]

I wish people would research before they comment on what breeders who have years of experience doing things do. Reptiles are always going to need to be researched so we can continue to give best care. I also believe we should give an environment as close as we can both afford and get to their natural habitat as we can.

[@ashtonsyy5400]

Is co habbing different snake species for hibernation ok? Went to my local zoo and seen a copper head in the same enclosure as a mexican rattle snake… And a brazilian rainbow boa with a boa constrictor of some sort. Also has various geckos and chameleons together i know snakes will hibernate together in dens but it didn’t seem necessary. And the chameleon x gecko enclosure seemed straight up un ethical. This zoo is the big zoo on my side of the state as well.

[@ashtonsyy5400]

It also makes me think about “Zoo level” enclosures. Is this true zoo level or is this zoo just not good. The enclosures for herps were pretty good for the most part but not crazy.

[@darcieclements4880]

That's extremely nuanced and it's going to have a lot of variables involved but if it was at a high quality zoo they probably have someone who spends a lot of time figuring out optimal combinations of individual animals based on the individual's temperaments and not just the species. Zoos in general we'll share a lot of information with each other about cohabbing successes and failures and will be taking into account things like biological risk factors such as diseases and parasites as well as behavior, shared climatic information and a ton of other parameters to optimize being able to show different species together, but this tends to be way above and beyond what the reptile hobby does. There are a lot of reptile hobbyists who have opened zoos recently but they're not running them the way that zoos are run yet, they're running them like really big pet stores. Zoo's attract biologists who will come in and do studies on their animals regularly, so the zoos get a big advantage there that these less formal locations funded by my patreon and KZbin and social media simply don't have yet. A cringe a lot when I watch KZbin channels since I've gotten myself up to date with all of the papers in herpetology from the last few years, but I can't exactly fault the people either because it takes a while for this information to make it mainstream.

[@kirillukin2222]

Assuming that the cases of geckos that are fighting and ripping each other is kinda a strawman

[@SpiritGRF]

Well that all depends. Those people might not have done it right either. Cohabiting isn’t exactly simple, but questions like were there multiple males? Which species of gecko? Was the enclosure actually enough space for the number of geckos you got? Did the owner provide enough hides for the geckos to get away from each other and have visual barriers? Maybe one of the geckos generally doesn’t like being around the others. Much like people these geckos have personalities of their own and sometimes that means some are more aggressive then others and it’s our job as a owner to make sure your monitoring their behaviors when cohabiting or making sure you aren’t putting your pets into stressful environments that could encourage those behaviors. So with that said I wouldn’t just take those stories at face value.

[@kirillukin2222]

@@SpiritGRF yeah but you vant really dismiss them at face value

[@SpiritGRF]

@kirillukin2222 That I will also agree with. It's hard to say when you don't know the details.

[@danzicz1890]

I still cant wrap my mind around the fact... why those snakes dont eat frogs or felsumas.... how ? Also i would like to do whites tree frog and felsuma colab enclosure so thanks for this video and all the info it helps to encourage me into doing it.

[@letstalkherps4937]

I’m guilty of “popping off” in the JTB video regarding cohabitation. Not my best moment 😅

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

🤣 hey we’ve all been there!!

[@kirillukin2222]

Joes enclosure was examplary

[@hefoxed]

Very interesting discussion. My first impression of dubia roaches (company) was a facebook post with a very black&white take of some fairly complicated animal topic, so my impression is they use "hot takes" as way to go viral/advertisment -- so they likely needed to respond to not push away their consumer base that they have curated likely tends to have similar black/white opinion. I have bought one vertical enclosure from them which needed door area be adjusted to prevent escapes of dwarf geckos (wide gaps between door and rest of enclosure, wasn't mentioned on website tmk), so have had a bit mixed opinion on them. (Tho my opinion on Wickens is also mixed -- his content is good, but iirc I stopped watching due partially due his type of content triggering a sorta consumerism/need-to-buy-more issues in myself , but mostly due to not removing Established titles sponsorships -- I figured out it was a scam a bit before it went viral, and it was not hard to find that info prior as there was multiple articles and videos that hadn't gone viral, and it was much more a scam then most people realized [even the land conservership was/is sus [a lands right Scottish guy looked into land records and found a lot of sus-ness also], and then there's the 8$ plant a tree monthly subscription with each tree only costing then 25 cents to a 1$ per the charities they work/ed with.. whole thing preys on elderly and vulnerable folk among others. He perhaps needs to research his sponsors more.) I do think people use topics like this as a way to vent anger. But some also do care and do think people are doing wrong and putting their pet/s in danger. It can be frustrating dealing with black/white type thinking. I also really think some folk forget that humans end and otherwise hurt each other, and yet we're a super social species. I remember some video where someone used that to say alligators as unable to care for each other and like, really? (I have no desire to adopt or care for an alligator, and I have no idea if they're uncaring, just the whole argument of using occasional violence to make such broad conclusions.). there's a more complicated topic there and whether they should have an outlet and way that express violence while in capacity -- like if fighting is part of mating behaviour, should they be allowed to fight even if it may cause injury/end? Like, humans enjoy risk and engage in risk willingly/with consent, and can be important for some folks enjoyment in life. I personally don't think I could have a species that may need violence (tho, saying that, I have had cats, and that's part of their mating behaviour -- and that's whole another complicated topic around sterilization and hormones and changing core behaviour for human benefit). It'd be nice if there was a great place to ask co-hab related questions. There's a facebook group, but that requires using facebook.

[@dylanlopez1769]

When dude is talking about individualism at 27:10 and he says you might just have a gecko that's a dickhead, that is my life lol.

[@ReptilesandResearch]

Is that my claim to fame? 😂

[@dylanlopez1769]

@ReptilesandResearch hahaha I meant no disrespect

[@ReptilesandResearch]

@@dylanlopez1769 I know 😂

[@dylanlopez1769]

@ReptilesandResearch in my gecks defense though he was a rescue from a fairly neglectful owner and just prefers to be left alone hahaha

[@darcieclements4880]

I wish it was really rare but I would have to say in well kept animals You're going to see this on average around 1 in 30 animals in my experience regardless of species, and in animals that were not socialized properly from an early age it's going to be significantly higher risk but that's going to vary a ton between different species. The level of dickishness also varies a bit, but I've had to separate everything from fish to horses to cats to dogs pretty much everything in between at one point or another and my 40 years of existence.

[@xturtlex84]

I truly think that it was a personal attack at Adam. I watch at least 20 different KZbinrs and I hear what some think of his channel. But if they really watch his stuff and pay attention, he keeps a lot of reptiles. You can see them in his videos in their enclosures. I can see how his animals are kept. And I watch the people that he makes videos with. I don't think they would be socializing with him if he did not know what he is doing. He is doing his research. He is going to the wild to see these reptiles. I trust his knowledge because of these things. And if I'm not sure, I can do my own research. This was a great podcast. Thanks!

[@darcieclements4880]

I've gotten into the habit of fact checking literally everything by every KZbinr ever and Adam is actually pretty darn good about it compared to many of the very very popular channels. I have noticed that as channels become more popular they're accuracy starts to drop and I think this is because they don't hire quality control to actually review the information they're sharing and they're so desperate to put information out constantly that they're not even aware of how much damage they're doing, but I don't get that from Adam. I have occasionally pointed out things that he said that me want to consider adjusting so that people don't get the wrong idea and certain assumptions that may not entirely line up with my personal experience on things that he fully admitted in the videos to not having done himself so he was going off of other people's information. The fact that he is willing to say things like that instead of speaking constantly with perfect authority speaks volumes to his quality of content, but the fact of the matter is there's so much misinformation out there it's really hard to avoid occasionally repeating it.

[@clydesdale1775]

Human Tribalism is the real cohabitation danger here 😂

[@margiewalker1808]

When I let my female ball pythons roam about my snake room they always seem to find each other and curl up together.

[@acaciaballpythons]

Its probably not about them curling up "with each other" as much as sharing whatever resource that spot offers, be it warmth, or dark, or good hiding, or security or comfort of some kind.

[@authenticthreads]

I’d be filthy stinkin’ rich if I had a nickel for every time someone who clearly had no idea how to find water in the desert said Uromastyx were “dry shedders”. A humid hide for a Uromastyx isn’t the same as a humid hide for a Ball Python but that doesn’t mean they don’t need the version that’s appropriate to their natural environment!

[@starbyray7828]

Just want to voice my support for Adam. You CAN cohabit Leopard Geckos if you know what you are doing and you have happy well kept and WELL FED Geckos. They do NOT live separately in the wild. The males do have their territories but they have a "hareem" of females that live with them. The females do have a hierarchy within their "group". I have kept and studied Leopard Geckos for YEARS. You will find that certain individual Geckos do not like each other and those will NOT tolerate each other. As with all social animals (I include Humans in that group). ****YOU CANNOT COHABIT MALES****.

[@Khunai.]

I think another thing worth mentioning with the size of enclosure with a colony probably doesn't necessarily need to be linear. Sure, the enclosure needs to get larger with each gecko but by a whole 40 gallons? Maybe not. Its not like Animal A now doesn't have access to any of the 40 gallons because Animal B showed up. At least, not in social creatures. If they were a species that defined out territory and killed anything that entered it, that would be a different story, and at which time you'd be a moron to cohab them anyway regardless of the size of enclosure so that's pretty irrelevant. When you go from a household of 1 to a household of 2 you don't need double the kitchens, living rooms, etc. You generally just need another bedroom, maybe another bathroom. Maybe none if the person moving in is your spouse. I don't think it should be a hard rule of 40gallons per gecko in an enclosure, I think a smaller step up like 40->60->80 and so on would be just fine.

[@thaynemorris5309]

I even think adding vertical real estate could be a good alternate to square footage. They don’t live in a flat world in the wild, and often traverse cave systems which can have vertical components to them as well. Very true.

[@Khunai.]

@@thaynemorris5309 very true, a 40gal with loads of climbing area is not at all equal to a 40gal with no climbing space

[@keithwilliamson1548]

👍👍👍👍👍

[@marwanalmehairi6009]

Great the viewers didn’t overreact 💀💀

[@johnschlesinger2009]

How sad that this discussion was necessary.

[@TShraderJr]

GECKOGEDDON! ITS THE END OF THE WORLD!!!! EVERYONE FREAK OUT!!!

[@LaylasLeglessRescue]

I get the need for research before reaction. I do think, however, that a lot of people don't know how to do proper research. Or they think they did. Most people will just Google it and that's the end. Unfortunately, there is so much misinformation out there that anyone could draw any conclusion. There needs to be conversation on proper research, how to find information, how to know whether or not to trust the information, how to back sources. I remember starting out, it is confusing out there and it's hard to get information without being attacked for not just already knowing all the answers. People suck and info can't be just trusted, so in the end animals, owners and the community all suffer for it.

[@darcieclements4880]

Yeah humidity is actually going to be facing a crisis pretty soon with the number of people who do not know how to tell truth from fiction because they don't actually know how to do appropriate real research and instead use Google and Wikipedia. Wikipedia is actually often very good but it can be absolutely horrifically astoundingly awful, and you do not know which you are looking at unless you know how to chase down the references. In herpetology specifically, I have lost count of the number of Wikipedia pages I have personally gone in and fixed multiple times because people unfix them because they cite a paper that says the opposite of the conclusion that is written in Wikipedia. Literally Wikipedia has the exact opposite conclusion from what was in the article that is cited and I see this over and over again. It's not even minor things, it's stuff like whether or not an animal is venomous, the composition of the animals saliva, whether or not there are distinct species, where the animal is actually native to, The list goes on and on and it's Enough to be alarmingly concerned because I think the people who are putting things into Wikipedia are not buying the full article and just making assumptions off of the abstract or even worse the title.

[@lagestita]

I'm planning on cohabbing my russian rat snake (female) with a male in the future. She's not cohabbed right now because she's only 3 years old and I don't want her breeding yet. I don't want to encourage laying eggs yet, ideally the resources she gets should go into growing rather than egg laying. But I think she'd benefit from having a mate and and company.

[@triplefreeerror]

A lot of the logic for 3x2x2 being the standard for a single leo has to do with having enough space for hides water enrichment and other husbandry. Of the geckos are social you don’t really need to multiply the space by the geckos so 4 in a 4 foot isn’t far fetched. Of they have the husbandry then they have the husbandry.

[@darcieclements4880]

So I'm formally trained animal behaviorist among other things but the approach that we would generally take for trying to figure out how much space you need for cohabbing animals is going to include fully identifying and understanding all of the behaviors between males and females and females and females and males and males throughout an entire year cycle and various weather conditions. Basically you're going to start with an enclosure size that is ridiculously huge, so that you can actually do the observations because good luck getting appropriate observations in the wild. Then you're going to sit there and you're going to record and observe like crazy for a couple of years. And you're going to be keeping track of the naturally occurring distances that they chase each other during different types of interactions and this is not going to be a bland environment either You're going to be putting in as many different things as you can think of from the wild as well as a lot of things sort of from the playground that has been developed for working with novel species from a few hundred years of people doing this. You're going to have regions all over your giant room filled with these different setups you're going to see where the animals naturally gravitate if they're ignoring one you're going to eliminate it replace it with a new one. You're going to be doing all of this for a year or two maybe more. Only then can you start to figure out what types of things are actually required and start optimizing it for smaller spaces. The only other way to do this is to hope that you're guessing right and put them into a smaller enclosure up front and learn the hard way. I think a really good example of this is pet chickens and how much space you need for a chicken. There's the minimum space that's used for meat birds and a different one for egg birds and a different one for fancy breeds and it's because each lineage of chicken actually has different concepts of what appropriate personal space is and the amount of room that they need to adequately manage their social interactions without harming each other. So if you have fighting cocks which go all the way back to the Roman era and beyond, they need an incredibly huge amount of space or they will fight with each other and tell one of them's killed, but if you have any of the other lineages of chickens you don't need that much space because they only need to run a few feet and if you've only got juveniles you could cram them in even closer but again individual lineages are going to change how much they can tolerate of that. Meat birds of specifically been bred to be able to deal with atrociously close conditions and their brains don't develop normally, if you put a normal chicken into those conditions it will die.

[@masonsmonsters]

Leopard Gecko should have come on, especially since she was one of the ones leading the charge against Adam.

[@HillsHerptiles]

She was invited x

[@fordguy2836]

@@HillsHerptiles why didn’t she?

[@HillsHerptiles]

@@fordguy2836 she chose not to for her own reasons I guess x

[@fordguy2836]

@@HillsHerptiles that kinda sucks it would’ve been nice to have her on

[@HillsHerptiles]

@@fordguy2836 yeah I was really hopeful! X

[@jabearquadpilot9615]

Lol

[@codyscreatures8297]

I 100% agree with Adam. They follow each others gazes and they lick as a form of communication. Also, in the colony/group setting, (MY) males don’t fight and NEVER have. I don’t know if it has to do with one being the others offspring so there’s a “pecking order” or what. I’d recommend 3 geckos max for a 40gal. Reason being you can’t add as many hides/HS/resources as you can in a larger enclosure.

[@GLockandGas]

Woah I agree with adam but not you. Dont co house males and 3 to a 40 gallon is way to small. My one is in a 40 gallon

[@GLockandGas]

Bro 3 in a 40 is abuse wtf you can co house females but not males especially in that small of an enclosure

[@thaynemorris5309]

@@GLockandGasI think if they used their vertical real estate well and created landings with additional hides it could work. Never had roommates in one house? How are you measuring whether a gecko is happy in its habitat? Whether it eats regularly? Its weight gain? How much it explores? Have any of these decreased because of adding other geckos to their tank? If you have examples demonstrating a clear decline in healthy behaviour, I’ll quickly agree and digress.

[@codyscreatures8297]

@@GLockandGas let me clarify. I didn’t say 3 males in a 40gal, nor did I say 3 adults. I’d recommend 3 yearlings/subadults max in a 40gal.

[@kirillukin2222]

About the experimentation point - it should be mentioned that it is experimental, adam not elaborating about 6 geckos in a 120 in a video thays not about that is bound to anger people

[@MovieMan184]

You should have had Rebecca on! That would have been... interesting! 😲

[@ReptilesandResearch]

she was invited

[@MovieMan184]

@@ReptilesandResearch are you serious! Why didn't she come on! 😲😳

[@ochaco_uraraka11]

@@MovieMan184lol why do you think ?

[@sneekyalexa2657]

I want to go into this podcast with an optimistic outlook as I have enjoyed them in the past--but i'm a bit nervous as Adam is....Not a nice person to interact with. Hope to see this perspective and see if there really is information beyond a 2009 article.

[@mypetsandme9473]

I don’t think it don’t make any difference if you have 5 years experience or 20 . If you co hab Leopard geckos even if it’s a giant enclosure with plenty of hides your probably going to get some issues at some stage! Even if they get on well together. Plus individual personalities of an animal is probably where the experience will come in handy & why do it just to get notice took that’s just nuts ! Look at me I’m a reptile god I can make them live happily ever after together. You can see if your animal is stressed quicker then say a newer keeper that’s what you got going for you not some Magic wand . Personally I don’t think it’s worth the hassle lol 😂 why do it lol when they live alone most of the time their much happier in their own space . When it comes to breeding unless you have some fantastic morph everybody wants at the moment trending 🤪 . The market is flooded with Leopard geckos & crested geckos at the moment with loads of rescues . Love your reptiles and appreciate what you have people instead of getting them as you would collectible items like mugs! Just because an animal is easy to breed it doesn’t mean to say you have to and end up with a bigger problem than you bargained for.

[@kirillukin2222]

Just think a 4 by 2 is a lil too lil

[@erisi6204]

The initial video that caused some reaction came across as an ill thought out lazy video for views rather than a well thought out serious contribution to the herp community. Since then Adam's spent time trying to protect his ego and deflect from producing an embarrassingly bad and arrogant video.

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

The idea I made THAT video for views is… ridiculous. The title and thumbnail are mundane at best. As I’ve said before, videos about cohabbing never get tons of views. Also, not one negative comment until someone disagreed online… weird…

[@erisi6204]

@WickensWickedReptiles As if comments is all that matters. That video was an embarrassment and is not a good example for anyone looking for advice on how to keep reptiles. If you put as much effort into the original video as you have massaging your own ego since you were called out, there would have been no reaction at all. You're coming across as arrogant and childish, both in that video and since.

[@WickensWickedReptiles]

@@erisi6204 if defending yourself and the correct science is childish put me in a diaper and grab me a pacifier

[@darcieclements4880]

No I think it was more that he was making it for fun and didn't think about people freaking out. It's not lazy to make a video just for fun, if anything it's the opposite of being lazy because you're just doing an extra one. Now I can't remember if I commented on it or not but usually my only concern with videos like that is if the person making them isn't thinking about the fact that beginners may see it and not understand the nuances involved and that piece of information gets left out of the video it can cause a lot of damage, but that's such a minor thing in the big scheme of things. Yeah I'll leave a note on a video about that so that maybe the beginners will see it and realize oh maybe I need to educate myself more before I try and put these animals together, but I don't think it's appropriate for anyone to get nasty when somebody fails to explain something fully and idiot proof what they're showing. The bigger channel gets the higher my expectations are for them to try and put this amount of effort in but until they've got a large staff and can afford to hire somebody in quality assurance, it's not realistic to be perfect about idiot proofing every single piece of information you put out there.

[@anne-lenebakken5827]

@@erisi6204 i agree. Sorry WWR. But u are KZbiner, u must be Nice

[@funnygaming2672]

don't really like the guy (jk i dont like him at all ), he wants all ball python in big vivarium has been the standard, when they live in termite hole! Rack is perfect same for tubs!

[@SpiritGRF]

Personally I think that's a bit petty to dislike him for. As long as your animals are happy keep doing you, but at the end of the day there is nothing wrong with trying to convince people to get their pets a bigger set up so they can have more fulfillment. I'm pretty sure Adam was clear in the past that he isn't against racks for breeding, but if it's a pet and not a breeding project then you can probably give your friend more space then a tube to live in. It's your animals so your choice, but I wouldn't look down on others for trying to provide more enrichment for their animals.

[@triplefreeerror]

Is this satire? Please be satire!

[@PeaceCountryExotics]

Please say this is satire. It’s well known that the termite mound is utter bs. Sure they will spend some time in termite mounds, but they are also found in trees. Ball pythons are very active and should be in large vivs with plenty of enrichment.

[@maximumreptile]

The difference between keeping pet reptiles, and commercially breeding reptiles for a profit, is quite a stark difference and should never be confused. Rack keeping is essentially a commercial business method and was not intended for the long term care of any reptiles. Racks and the small plastic tubs that slide inside them were originally based on how rodents are commercially farmed, and were specifically designed for the reptile breeding sector and shouldn't be confused with how to properly care for a pet Ball Python. The notion that this is somehow on par with pet keeping standards or is superior to pet level care is simply misinformation and is just factually wrong. Fortunately, while in the United States and some other countries most Ball Pythons are bred in a rack and tub system, most pet reptile keepers, who represent over 99% of all reptile keepers, house their ball pythons in much larger setups. Ideally, your pet reptile’s enclosure should try to mirror their natural habitat with décor, plants and other enrichment as well as appropriate lighting and heating in order to try and provide the best care possible for your Ball Python.

[@nanoreefer1622]

The 90s wants its husbandry back 😂

[@tee_pierce6]

Nice bro i gotta floridacommonsnappingturtle they tha truth