The Turning Point | Jiang Wei's Northern Expeditions Let's Talk Lore E09

[@Zooasaurus]

The way I see it Jiang Wei isn't necessarily a bad commander, he just happens to be outmatched in terms of resources and strategic acumen in Deng Ai

[@MCorpReview]

Darn zhuge family got connections in all 3 states. I’m surprised they never started their own dynasty or something. Zhuge ke came closest. Wonder what dynastic name they would use 😂if they did.

[@tonys9397]

The odds are just too great even tho Jiang Wei seems like good general able to change up and come up with plans on the fly. This part of the story always makes me so sad. It’s hard not to wonder if he had kept those 10k soldiers if he would have been able to do more during Zhuge Dan’s rebellion. Love your content Serious Trivia

[@scrtwpnx]

i doubt it. his plan to wait for hu jin to come up was a terrible idea since it would take way too long for him to get up there

[@tonys9397]

@@scrtwpnx and with Deng Ai sticking to him like mucus it must been even harder

[@JohnSmith-us9fv]

awesome video

[@HighPriestFuneral]

One thing not answered in this episode. Was Hu Ji actually arriving with reinforcements or was this attack on Shangbang from this direction always a fool's errand?

[@SeriousTrivia]

no historically we do not know if Hu Ji was on his way or not. The direction was not an issue as Hu Ji would be taking the same route that Jiang Wei would have taken (and previously taken by Zhuge Liang for attacks on Shangbang). Whether they could have won or not at Shangbang against Deng Ai is questionable, but we never really have to wonder about that thanks to Deng Ai beating Jiang Wei ahead of time.

[@Grayson030]

Do you think you will cover Zhuge Dan in greater detail in the future ? I honestly dislike how he was portrayed in Dynasty Warriors, basically a Sima Shi simp, and the same age as Zhao when he should be much older.

[@SeriousTrivia]

Yep the three rebellions of Huainan would all be covered

[@shadowspy9961]

Great vid

[@Killerbee4712]

Sima Wang im guessing is probably Sima Fu or one of Sima Yi's younger brothers' son

[@frost9041]

Shu Han just seems screwed by geography, lots of natural defences which works both ways and not enough farmland to support a large enough population to seriously challenge either Wei or Wu. Nothing sort of complete catastrophe for Wei and/or Wu could give Shu a chance at victory.

[@ChhalySamsokrith]

That's why losing Jing was a big, if not fatal, blow. Imagine... I mean really imagine, if Zhuge Liang has Jing to boot his campaigns and grand plans.

[@Blisterdude123]

That was why Liu Bei as emperor was a tragedy. He couldn't separate his personal desires from those of state. His suicidally inept vendetta with Wu basically ended any hope of a Han restoration. There was no real hope after that, it was the final nail in the coffin. You could go back further though, to Zhuge Liang's terrible judge of character appointing Guan Yu to govern Jing. Sure, his rep and military ability made sense on paper. But his towering arrogance and ego led him to throw the province away. You could go back even further though, and I do personally. Liu Bei should have seized Jing the moment Zhuge Liang advised him to when Liu Biao died. By leaving it to be claimed by Cao, and then exploiting Wu to fight for it, Jing become a sticking point forever between Wu and Shu. If Liu Bei had claimed it first, Wu's claim on it after the Battle of Chi Bi would have been much weaker, given they wouldn't have expended manpower and resources fighting for it. By not taking Jing before Cao invaded, Liu Bei left it to be a point of contention their Wu allies felt they were owed.

[@ChhalySamsokrith]

@@Blisterdude123 I agree with most of your points. However, I remember its not Zhuge Liang who appoints Guan Yu, it was Liu Bei's idea. Also, no one is more qualified to do that other than Guan Yu, as he is literally Liu Bei's right hand man. What I always ponder, instead, is why, after conquering Hanzhong, they never send reinforcements (more reliable generals) back to Guan Yu/Jing to help with defend/offence. I think it is too obvious that Jing is both a very important strategic location and that they have to worry about both Wu and Wei. Why nothing is taken to ensure that there is sufficient people taking care of defend since Wu would break the alliance anytime. Historically speaking, Wu attacked outright a few times and Liu Bei had to go back to Jing to negotiate truce, why he didnt feel the need to make sure key points are defended by capable and trustworthy general like Huang Zhong (coz if I remember well, after Hanzhong campaign he's not appointed to govern any specific province/city)? On another note, I think Liu Bei not taking Jing to begin with is the right move coz he has to content with the Cai and other influential clan of Jing province. If he had taken Liu Biao's offer, then internal strife would happen and it only weaken his side. I'm literally saying that Liu Bei is quite unfortunate to start his career from the bottom, having no family wealth and connection to boot compare to Cao Cao. So what he achieved is considered remarkable.

[@historian252]

Was Deng Ai just good at reading people or was Jiang Wei being really obvious?

[@SeriousTrivia]

Deng Ai was super talented. Jiang Wei met his match. But it’s not really fair to compare his reading ability off just this one campaign. You can just say Deng Ai was better than Jiang Wei.

[@oohlala444]

It’s a bit of both really. Deng Ai was clearly a very competent general and Jiang Wei honestly became a bit predictable with his northern expeditions. Plus Jiang Wei was nowhere near as talented as Zhuge Liang as he accomplished far less with a similar level of resources. If Zhuge Liang couldn’t break Wei there was no shot for his successors

[@shaggycan]

​​@@oohlala444 well it must be difficult to launch that many sudden surprise attacks. I'm sure going back to Zhuge Liang these weren't really supposed to be a series of attacks, they were meant to defeat Wei from the start. I actually agree with Jiang Wei's critics, they should have waited until there was a definitive opening instead of years of endless costly probing or even just turn the Shu region into a fortress that only could be taken from within. 9:40 this is what I mean, if he had just waited for this opportunity he would have had 10,000 more troops to exploit this situation.

[@SeriousTrivia]

I disagree with this idea. Troops don’t get better by not fighting. The Shu Han advantage in infantry is precisely gained by the constant fighting. If say Shu Han’s economy is 100 and Wei is 500. If both has say 10% growth which is probably not even fair to Wei who just have more land, more resources, more population, and even foreign trade routes. But even with the same growth rate, waiting would just keep expanding that gap. The only way to catch up is to trade up in every campaign. Say Shu loses 5 points of their economy by going on an expedition, it is fine as long as Wei loses more than 25 for example. You are never going to catch up playing the waiting game with a bigger power. Plus you run into internal politic issue of why you should even exist without attempts to restore the Han. Additionally even without northern expeditions you would still need to defend Hanzhong. It’s not like Wei would stop attacking you if you pick no northern expeditions.

[@joe718gt4]

Deng Ai was the man. He also was part of putting down Guanqiu Jian's rebellion

[@martinmarigomen2767]

Yey new vid ❤

[@ChhalySamsokrith]

Question: I remember listening to your episodes on Hanzhong Campaign and learn that traversing the mountainous terrian took months. How does the mountainous terrian in the Hanzhong area differ from the areas mention in your current video (Yong province?), given that it seems both army are moving in a much faster pace?

[@SeriousTrivia]

It does take months if you are going from say A to Z but here you have Jiang Wei just making a A to B type of move and Hu Ji taking the same Mt Qi path that Zhuge Liang took during his first and third campaigns. It’s the same thing it’s just quicker but it’s shorter distance

[@vinhquanghoang8301]

Zhuge Liang didnt have the best successor. Jiang Wei is extremely loyal but he is lacking compare to what Wei has at their disposal. But i guess being loyal is what Zhuge Liang want the most, a less loyal successor could have betray Shu Han when they lost.

[@Thaumaturge2251]

Dunno, if that's fair, Jiang Wei is clearly competent, and time was not on his side. Guy did fail, but he had a hell of a deck against him.

[@DonMomotaroPimpingAHundredHoes]

I think Jiang Wei and Shu Han were just dealt with unwinnable odds. They'd need a couple of hundred miracles happening in a row for them to suddenly gain a foothold.

[@victorhino26]

Answer: Sima Fu

[@shinsenshogun900]

Jiang Wei flew quite high at his Eight, shot down at his Ninth! That's life!

[@SuperStarTidus18]

Sorry if you have covered this in a different video as I am still in progress on watching all your lore series, but did Shu Han ever have a realistic chance at unifying China? Somewhat related, why did Shu Han struggle so much to increase the size of their army and population? Ty in advance and I appreciate your time and content :).

[@SeriousTrivia]

no they never had a realistic chance to unify China. They had a good chance to increase their holding and thus their chance with the first northern expedition. But even if that was successful, it would be difficult to say they would be favored. As for your population question, that is like asking why country A can’t increase their population over country B when they have essentially identical technologies in farming, health, etc since they basically split from the same country and one side just had a bigger piece of the land and population. And given this in the span of around 40 something odd years of Shu Han’s existence which is barely two generations, there is just no way to make up grounds.

[@SuperStarTidus18]

@@SeriousTrivia I see. Ty for the response :).