Former MI5 & MI6 Heads On The Iraq War, Double Agents & Today's Best Secret Services | The Two Spies

What is it like to be a spy in real life? Do you get an Aston Martin like James Bond 007? Should spies be allowed to break the law while undercover? What should the relationship between government and intelligence look like? Do we overestimate or underestimate the power and reach of Russia's FSB and China's intelligence service?
On today's special episode of Leading, Rory & Alastair are joined by Eliza Manningham-Buller and John Sawers to discuss what it's really like to lead MI5 and MI6, respectively.
This episode was recorded before the IS-Khorasan attack in Moscow.
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00:00 Intro
02:10 How Eliza and John were recruited into the secret service
08:45 The personality types that make a good spy
12:47 How the threat from terrorism has changed over the years
15:34 Managing the intelligence services during the Iraq War
26:42 Successful operations & double agents
37:17 Popular spy representation - does it help or hinder recruitment?
40:02 Post 9/11 intelligence operations
44:55 The UK's biggest objective in counter terrorism today
51:21 Why not just overthrow a corrupt regime?
54:27 Thoughts on China/Taiwan, Russia/Ukraine & Gaza/Israel & Trump
1:04:10 Worst case scenario in the next 5-10 years
1:06:55 What are you optimistic about?
1:09:05 De-brief

[@Time12345A]

"IRAQ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 911" MY HEART BLEEDS FOR ALL THE INNOCENT SOULS THAT LOST THEIR LIVES IN THAT ILLEGAL AND FALSE WAR!!! 💔

[@neiltitmus9744]

That's what everyone was saying at the time but we're told there was sensitive information we could not see that confirmed that Iraq had wmd ,at that point I said to mys3lf OK but if not then you are all for it .these people still have not payed this bill and probably never will.5hen USA wanted Tony Blair to be middle east envoy you can't make this up.lol

[@canadiangemstones7636]

What about the Kuwaiti’s? Your heart feel anything for them?

[@Pauliewalnuts_822]

​​@@canadiangemstones7636Are you seriously taking that position still after everything the anti war movement said is, and was, 100% accurate? Give your head a wobble.

[@Time12345A]

@canadiangemstones7636 What does Kuwait have to do with the fabricated Iraq war that cost more than a million innocent people their lives and homes? How do you feel so many people losing their lives/livelyhood, I wonder?

[@Time12345A]

@@Pauliewalnuts_822 ♥️

[@robert-gs4ih]

How Campbell has the bare faced cheek to discuss Iraq is beyond me. He has no shame but then again, we all knew that.

[@chindit6784]

Because one of the spies were literally involved in the new Iraqi government. You would complain if he had said something or said nothing.

[@LowlierThanThow]

Exactly what I was thinking. How preposterous; the sheer audacity of Alistair Cambell. Shamelessness taken to new levels here.

[@robert-gs4ih]

@@LowlierThanThow Him, Blair and Brown should be totally embarrassed to show their faces in public.

[@farzanamughal5933]

You'd rather he was silent about the topic?

[@chindit6784]

@@farzanamughal5933 these people will complain whatever he says.

[@scottblack9213]

Campbell hosting this particular podcast is the equivalent of Alec Baldwin being judge and jury in his own personal manslaughter trial.

[@theresabates6058]

I forced myself to Listen to this excellent discussion as I loathe Campbell. The brass neck of him to sit there not acknowledging his part in the lies surrounding 9/11. What a treasure Eliza is

[@Thewestisthevirus]

Same here. She knows about Campbell and is giving him a slap

[@amnaali2688]

They are all threat to the world. Every single one of them sitting on this panel.

[@Gunni1972]

@@Thewestisthevirus You call that a slap? Once the Empirical mindset takes a foothold again, you will notice that it usually is delivered by a whip. She is afraid of trump, because he threatens to take away that whip, and use it for HIS agenda.

[@colinstewart1432]

Her father was a Nuremburg judge, I believe. Her credentials are flawless.

[@lw1zfog]

@@colinstewart1432 hmmmm, did he sentence Fritz ter Meer ?

[@mandyshanks2327]

I wish Alistair would admit that he was indirectly involved in the death of Dr Kelly. He has no sense of guilt.

[@tommyi6667]

I agree regarding Dr Kelly but in the kindest possible way, this is a podcast and even though we may pick up on items we never knew I would assume that Alastair and moreover were and are under the Secrets Act, we will all be dead and buried and even then our great, great grandchildren possibly will not know. Is it justified regarding Dr Kelly, No but as they say"we couldn't handle the truth ".

[@DavidJohnson-yg8qm]

They think we have forgotten this so called suicide.

[@Gunni1972]

I wished Alistair would stop contradicting himself.1) "No. Regime change is not our aproach" Seriously? And not a minute later, he comes up with Which countries could be "added to the list" in which we did. 2) He sees Trump as a threat to NATO (When NATO is the USA's threat to everybody else) and a threat that Article 5 loses it's meaning. Well, how convenient is that? NOW, when Ukraine is losing, and actually NO one wants to support them. Same with Israel, who is slaughtering civillians, even foreign aid workers. USA is FULLY supporting it. And all because of a Pipeline from Gaza to Italy. because a certain Syrian "Dictator" did not want one built through his country. Also, Saddam had used his Chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war. They have an expiring date. So pretty much every "specialist" who knew they were used, also knew, there wouldn't be any anymore. Saddam was forced into that war by the USA, just like Zelensky. As a revenge for the revolution against their Shah. Alistair should at least tell half of the story, If he wants to "regain trust". He looks really bad. And to ethics and Morals i say: Regime change is often bloody. WHO is held accountable for such "Operations"? as it often contains MURDER, RAPE, INTIMIDATION and THEFT. And i am not even touching How the City of London, The IMF, and the ECB force nations into Debt traps,by trade agreements, which eventually leads to "certified Nutjobs" like Milei, in Argentina. Colonial Force Projection. THAT seems to have been YOUR JOB. Well hidden from Public, Alistair.

[@colinstewart1432]

Many believe he leaked the name...🤔

[@LeeGee]

So no proof?

[@davidlamb7524]

Virtually the whole country knew that. When Bush said "Iraq" we were all screaming at the telly "Wtf's Iraq got to do with it ?".

[@frankmahoney1268]

OIL.

[@davidlamb7524]

@@frankmahoney1268 Yes. And smoke-screen cover for the actual culprits.

[@CYCHIATRIC]

Well they're both spies and the other two are politicians. You don't expect them to tell the truth do you?

[@annalehman93941]

​@@frankmahoney1268you read my thoughts, how?

[@Joe3pops]

In Canada most Canadians, including our left leaning(marxist) prime minister smelled sh!te when George in 2003 turned the shell game from Afghanistan to Iraq. So glad Canada did not become involved in Iraq 2.0 family fued. Bush versus Saddam.

[@alexanderjacobs1945]

It’s scary that they’re sitting there constantly avoiding the fact that ALISTAIR CAMPELL was instrumental in confusing and supporting the event that led to Iraq. Be sure to remember that all the analysis of this horrible conflict (on HIS podcast) will only seek to exonerate himself

[@Lattakeoff]

You don’t think they may have supported his view at the time or been complicit in the whole sorry saga ...?

[@junkbucket50]

You have to get Eliza back on she's so straight talking and no nonsense. It's like a breath of fresh air

[@sherlockgnomes8971]

I wish we could have a PM like that 😂 not going to happen any time soon unfortunately😢

[@richsan4923]

These cretins do far more harm than good and always have.

[@sbwords]

I felt she had more to say about Campbell and his cohorts distorting around Iraq. He won’t have her back and the tame Tory ex-spook is too timid to push the issue.

[@henrytan5588]

British Intelligence is the longest agency and one of the best. The US started with the OSS from scratch and developed into the CIA . Yet the CIA still refer to the British Intelligence Stations around the world. But the UK should not be have a person like Edgar J Hoover. The ISI of Pakistan always tell the politicians that ISI is always there but not them.

[@mspenelope6874]

Straight talking double agent. Yeah right.

[@PhillipHilton]

The quality of the guests on this podcast and the maturity of the conversations is breathtaking. It's absolutely fascinating to listen to guests of this standard being interviewed in such a capable manner.

[@stephenhardy312]

I agree completely with your comments. A very articulate, well-informed and worldly contribution

[@ninopavkovic9382]

Morally seen, those individuals from the British Sectret Services, are the equivalent of the agent Smith from the movie "Matrix". Only in the domestic bubble they appear like somebody positive. For the rest of the world, they are wrongdoers of the worst category.

[@ghotio1927]

They're literally spies who lie and cheat for a living and you trust what they're saying ? more fool you sir

[@MarkSiosal]

1:08:39 1:08:39

[@CallousCarter]

​@@stephenhardy312 Thery'e certainly articulate but I don't think they're well informed or insightful. With Intel chiefs like these it doesn't surprise me that we are continuing to lurch from one self made strategic disaster to another.

[@Hunchbacc]

Wasn’t Campbell the one who made the invasion of Iraq “sexy” and got up on Newsnight lecturing us. I wish David Kelly was here to be asked some questions. Oh wait, that was Campbells first body.

[@colintook3357]

Poor David Kelly would have been a great addition to the conversation here around Iraq, would have certainly got Campbell squirming.

[@denythenaysayer]

Kelly wasn't "working for the good of the country" so had to go....😉

[@sherlockgnomes8971]

@@denythenaysayerHave some bleeding respect , your emoji just makes this comment very twisted.

[@blondie7341]

Thank god someone else made this connection. I cannot believe Campbell is being praised here after that performance on Newsnight!! 🤬

[@howwwwwyyyyy]

​@@sherlockgnomes8971I'm fairly sure David Kelly would have no problem with the use of an emoji when someone is clearly pointing out that he was murdered

[@studiophantomanimation]

I think this is my favourite KZbin video. As a Secondary School pupil, I really liked Eliza Manningham-Buller and don't care about her background. She cut through crap like a hot knife.

[@kesart8378]

"Mistakes were made," said an entree in the Understatement Of The Year competition.

[@TheoverseasPakistani-sz1bb]

Yeah 😂. What a bunch of lies they speak even now. They all.knew it was an illegal war back then.

[@YA-hm5zy]

No mistakes all calculated and planned. With the complicity of the media.

[@rob14]

Yet they continue with their stupidity with the anti trump propaganda and ignoring reality.

[@c.jjohns6758]

Mistake? Sure. And Biden is just bad at his job

[@colinstewart1432]

Presumably mistakes by someone. The use of the passive tense is particularly annoying.

[@kenrunciman8706]

Campbell was complicit in the great deception. His levels of self-deception are beyond measurement.

[@Dcc-yk2lo]

I'm sure you have some evidence? Feel free to post it. Why was he cleared of wrongdoing in all of the Inquiries about the Iraq war?

[@craigpruess5565]

@@Dcc-yk2lo- getting the gov’t to investigate itself never works, despite all the smug appearances of an “independent investigation”… 🤣🤣🤣

[@janwoldens1696]

😂the "nukes" threat of Iraq was Sadam's petroleum export in currencies other than the USD

[@sulevisydanmaa9981]

As w Khad ...

[@ramseyr2852]

Definitely it was one.

[@jodywho6696]

That is 1 reason for putting Bush jr. and Cheney in prison. It absolutely had nothing to do with 9/11

[@Stillmorning]

Maybe Campbell can do a stint with them

[@dougieranger]

And Tony Blair.

[@rogerroger9927]

Sorry those are liars. USA and UK knew that Iraq had nothing to do with9/11 and Iraq had no WMD. They invaded Iraq for 2 raison; 1 for the oil and 2 to destroy military power ( remember that USA and UK armed Iraq against Iran).

[@delharry4392]

Mistakes, millions died a mistake That's why we are hated Mistakes were made Unbelievable

[@keesverhagen9227]

No mistakes. The same as what They did in Iran and Ukraine. The US and the UK combined equels Evil.

[@samanthagarbettcharles4205]

They make ya sick ,a mistake ! 😢

[@naijaman6639]

When you make this point, thèy call you names and try to smear you. Terrible hypocrites. Shameless KZbin, I await your acts of deleting.

[@luchseterna]

English are so incredibly self loathing. You should look clearly what other countries have done. Past is in the past. For me as a foreigner Great Britain was a great empire and now a great land suffering from self destroying politics.

[@LeeGee]

If we were hated we'd not have problematic immigration, legal or otherwise

[@rhobatbrynjones7374]

This is probably the most intelligent and fascinating broadcast that The Rest is Politics has ever done.

[@alanbarker2279]

It certainly had a lot do with Intelligence... 😛

[@benjaminrich9396]

It is only due to the quality of these two guests that I could stomach an hour and a quarter of a conversation in which Alastair Cambell was present.

[@honeyflower7754]

Absolutely agree; I cannot stomach ‘Squealer’ from Animal Farm. No wonder he is racked with guilt and in therapy.

[@Amarjeet1970]

EMB came across as knowledgeable and formidable. Glad that she was forthright in calling out the hoax that was Iraq & I noticed Alistair keeping mum at that point.

[@PauloAdriano-zo2ng]

Any chance average Iraqi citizens could sue the British & American governments for reparations? 🤔

[@parkgate-ub1ey]

​@PauloAdriano-zo2ng and where would that money come from? Tax payers ? Then no thanks we pay far too much

[@user-wd6ni4xu4n]

These people I don’t know about the lady but laughing after being part of and causing the deaths of over 2 million civilians and I forget how many children died of starvation. The British and western media forgot to tell us. Is disgraceful. If America and British acted honestly with other countries instead of stealing their natural resource there would not be a need for spy’s. It’s the bullying that other countries can’t accept.

[@user-mr8zr9kk4t]

Blair didn’t care that Iraq didn’t have WMDs, he just wanted to become rich and famous.

[@howwwwwyyyyy]

He was already rich and famous, there's much more to it than that, one day it'll be made clear

[@captain_nero]

@@howwwwwyyyyy I heard he is due to take on WEF looool

[@Gunni1972]

@@howwwwwyyyyy It is clear: You can hear what he admires with the chinese: Collecting power, and Project power. He should work in an S/M studio.

[@colinstewart1432]

The truth proved inconvenient to his political ambition. So one million dead Iraqis later, the undead ghoul called Tony Blair still roams the earth. He sits atop a throne of skulls.

[@russmartin4888]

✡️ v Muslim

[@robstones1978]

"Too much focus was placed on individual intelligence sources." They knew this at the time and went ahead because Blair promised Bush that British involvement in Iraq part two was a go. A million people marched in the UK....

[@TheoverseasPakistani-sz1bb]

Yes absolutely, they knew it then. Now they are just trying to squirm their way out of it by twisting words and just plain lying 🤥

[@howwwwwyyyyy]

Nothing new

[@rosella1919]

Australia’s Prime Minister Howard, followed his fan boy; George W, into that war. We had no right to be there. 🇦🇺

[@TM-rq3jp]

So many people died in iraq and afganistan and libiya as a result of war on terror. What about nuclear wealons of isreal

[@owaisahmad7841]

USA was leader of gang of tugs comprising USA, UK, Australia and few others. UK went on to elect the legendary US lapdog Blair again !

[@wanderlustchap]

As Eliza insinuated the Iraq Dossier was Campbell’s (bullying) work…

[@michaelcrowther9307]

She didn’t fall “into” MI5 by charnce! You went to the “right” school, had the “right” family, “right” connections. You’re the establishment protecting the establishment. Someone taps me in the shoulder at a “dinner party” it’s to tell me there’s no beer left in the fridge.

[@chevalierdupapillon]

Exactly. She is the daughter of a former Lord Chancellor, Viscount Dilhorne, and of his wife who was an earl's daughter. All of her eight great-grand-parents were from titled families (a duke's daughter, an earl, two earl's daughters, a baron from the younger line of a ducal family, a baron's grand-daughter, a baronet and a baronet's younger son). She then went first to Benenden School, an independent boarding school placed in a country house, and after that studied English at Oxford. All these things taken together (plus of course a million close family or friendly relationships with people in influential positions) would have made her someone whom the recruiting person could immediately have recognised as 'one of us'.

[@maccamcfcflc]

Spot on man

[@frankmahoney1268]

@@chevalierdupapillon one of us,umm,,,.the key for entry,,,.

[@jimmy6283]

​@@chevalierdupapillonyes they all stay together, familys name is everything

[@jameslong9921]

​@@chevalierdupapillonWell said Mr Butterfly.

[@crowbar9566]

The lack of shame from the 2 presenters is absolutely breathtaking. One a political propagandist who promoted the illegal invasion and the other one got to live out his victorian fantasy of being a British colonial governor as part of the illegal occupation.

[@lw1zfog]

hilarious isn’t it

[@katejones2172]

I don't know how Campbell has got the gall to sit there & discuss Iraq

[@michellegilder1558]

They keep diverting when it gets too close to him …..as he squirms in his seat

[@yasmeensaleem9074]

Wow. I loved this! We need more openness and transparent honesty! In particular Eliza, respected her bluntness and honesty.

[@gammamaster1894]

The absolute cheek of Alastair Campbell to sit there talking about Iraq and dishonesty in politics.

[@chrispalmer7893]

Slightly confused why the quote "Iraq had nothing to with 9/11" is the thumbnail. Isn't that a bit like quoting someone as saying that on a sunny day the sky is blue? Are there really still (sane) people who are unclear about that?

[@danjones4551]

I just want to add that water is wet

[@Joe-og6br]

In America it was really pushed on the public that they were linked. In the UK it was WMD.

[@ferozabismilla637]

​@@Joe-og6brand I am sure that only in America, do some people still think that, that is still the case

[@LeeGee]

It's the source of the quote that is significant. Tsk....

[@chrispalmer7893]

@@LeeGee Doesn't matter who said it if all that was said is a banal truism. It might be interesting if the person saying it was contradicting their previous position (it would be extremely newsworthy if Dick Cheney or George W Bush was saying it - well, Cheney, anyway, Bush probably has admitted it at some point). But the ex-head of MI5 saying now what they were saying then and what has been accepted for decades is unremarkable. At the risk of talking myself out of this, maybe it's remarkable that she felt she had to say it? It suggests she thinks there is a signfiicant number of people who still believe Saddam was behind 9/11. Beyond the reality that there are always lunatics and idiots I'm not convinced those people exist, but maybe she thinks they do?

[@reginaldamoah8608]

I think the child who brought up Lumumba was spot on how confident are we that we've been on the right side of history. Also getting a job via a tap on the shoulder at dinner party wow!

[@nomsashezi9775]

That tap on the shoulder really made me pause…either WOW or she is having a laugh at us

[@casteretpollux]

Britain is a class society.

[@kingeddiam2543]

That was a long time ago, though im sure it still probably happens to some extent

[@andyainsworth9804]

This podcast should be mandatory for secondary school students. Its so refreshing to hear intelligent people having a well thought out conversation. Great episode :)

[@user-lh8lk5wk5g]

As a year 10 student, I agree

[@PauloAdriano-zo2ng]

​@@user-lh8lk5wk5g 😉

[@fghezelbash8731]

"intelligent people"?!!!!!

[@Thewestisthevirus]

They also need to know the history of what happened

[@FONASDeadlock]

Given the litany of stupidity we hear from members of the current government, it's reassuring to hear the voices of informed experts.

[@ianjames3078]

And our political leaders would rubbish our public servants given a risk to their egos.

[@EppingBlogger]

What a shame, then, that the security services allowed themselves to become handmaidens to the Blair lies to Parliament about a causus beli in Iraq.

[@Burdetski]

Dr Kelly RIP

[@suhailski]

Get the two spies their own podcast: rest is espionage?

[@robc8892]

Or the the rest is classified 🤣

[@suhailski]

@@robc8892 hahah, your title is way better than mine.

[@DCMamvcivmEvony]

Would be awesome. A podcast along similar lines that you may enjoy is called "the hacker and the fed". A podcast where an ex black hat hacker and the FBI agent that dealt with his case and prosecuted him discuss all things hacking, cybersecurity, scams etc. Its pretty good.

[@Thewestisthevirus]

Yes!

[@SpiritOfMontgomery]

@@robc8892the rest is [redacted]

[@Du5ty999]

Loved the contrast between Eliza and John - one very clearly a straight-talking career Intelligence Officer and the other a very skilful diplomat.

[@mattblack6736]

The way Eliza teleported out of the studio was most impressive.

[@billder2655]

like yoda in episode 6😂

[@ianjames3078]

Rory backtracking rapidly after being called out for exaggerating was a gem.

[@richardfraser1562]

Thanks all. Such a pleasure to listen to thoughtful people taking like adults.

[@SamMerchant-vn4or]

Alistair sitting innocently like he never advocated for the war, never rounded up the troops

[@benwilson6145]

He was not a member of hr Government, he was an advisor,

[@dilonkumar4960]

@@benwilson6145oh please his hands are drenched in blood like yours ,let’s see how you would react if children are killed

[@benwilson6145]

@@dilonkumar4960 Remove your head from your bottom and pretend to have a brain!

[@heycidskyja4668]

@@benwilson6145 That makes his actions worse rather than excuse him.

[@ftumschk]

Leaving the "advocacy" aside, he certainly never rounded up any troops.

[@mandyshanks2327]

Campbell was wrong. I wish he would admit it.

[@andrewharrison7767]

I wish he'd be as vehement in his confession as he is whenever brexit gets raised

[@casteretpollux]

I wish he was in jail.

[@Gazpacho8]

@@andrewharrison7767 I wonder if he regrets helping sink labour in 2019 considering how much he hates Johnston, oh dear if only there were an alternative!

[@darrendrew1281]

One of the best videos I’ve watched in a long time, glued to the video from beginning to end. Well done chaps

[@philipwhiuk]

Amongst the best single podcast episode I've ever listened too. Thanks!

[@laetitiavisagie-gg6kk]

I like the little boy who asked about Patrice Lumumba (I am from South Africa) ❤

[@tonyaustin4472]

Interesting discussion. I keep banging on about Gaza/Israel and hoping someone, other than me, recognises that this crisis isn’t just about the Hamas atrocity; it is a continuation of events that started in the year I was born, 1948 and the Nakba. You displace a population that’s been there for hundreds of years, you steal their land, settle it with your own people; you oppress the refugees, you let Lebanese militias murder men, women and children in refugee camps, you even divert the water supplies away from their remaining land, you build walls round the small areas you’ve allowed them to retain, you let your settlers run riot, kill their animals, burn their orchards; the list goes on and on; and then, when the inevitable happens and they revolt, you murder men, women, children, foreign aid workers, medical staff; you even kill your own hostages who are trying to tell you that they are Israelis: this cycle of theft, atrocities, repression has to stop or be stopped. And if the Israeli State won’t act, won’t change; then the West has to. There are enough on both sides who recognise that the future has to be a viable Palestinian State and a viable Israeli State at peace with each other. Whether you are a Palestinian or an Israeli; that is the only humanitarian chance your children and grandchildren can have of living a decent secure life. If this isn’t sorted, and sorted soon, there will a massive war eventually in the Middle East with death and destruction on a scale far in excess of today. Now some folk will react to this by classifying me as anti-semitic. I have close friends on both sides: I grew up with friends who’s mothers and fathers survived the Concentration camps in Germany and Poland….so don’t jump to that antisemitic assumption please! It’s being used too often as a political excuse in my opinion. I am an old man and it grieves me to my soul to witness what I see happening day after day in Gaza, the West Bank and in Israel and to know just by bitter experience that it will happen again if wiser heads do not prevail…and if necessay do not enforce.

[@khar12d8]

1948? The Romans burning down the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD was when it started.

[@Mounhas]

I was also born in 1948 and only wish I had your clarity in expressing in what I think. For me, what has happened in Palestine is comparable to what happened to the native peoples of Australia, Canada & the USA.

[@flangekiwi]

Thank you for your eloquence and humanity ❤💔❤ For all our children and grandchildren, we must do better than this #OnePlanet 🌎

[@ashhowardgolf3865]

And how about the Kurds?? Always conveniently forgotten

[@catinthehat906]

The problem is a significant proportion of the Palestinian population don't want "a viable Palestinian State and a viable Israeli State at peace with each other". No surprise that the one election held in Gaza in the last 20 years elected a party whose stated intention was the destruction of Israel.

[@Kavala76]

51:54 "...they, by and large, are exceptions" 🤣 Sawer appeared to me to be sanitising of intelligence work, and this segment just confirmed it. Manningham-Buller seemed more genuine.

[@casteretpollux]

As the CIA guy said not so long ago " they taught us to lie and cheat". Secret services are by definition obliged to lie constantly.

[@MattSingh1]

*Christopher Hitchens easily and effortlessly defeated all arguments against the 2003 liberation of Iraq.*

[@Kavafy]

No he didn't.

[@jz7692]

Listening now I find it ludicrous that there was not sufficient oversight to challenge the governments view, in order to avoid an occasion where a weapon expert felt they had to make a nuanced remark on the validity of evidence in consideration to their own assessment of Iraq's WMD capability. (The claims appeared to be quietly withdrawn as fast they were made, as if the projection in parliament was indeed for effect). The subsequent assault on public servants & institutions who basically questioned the logic were basically told 'it not in the national interest'. It therefore begged the question what was? The weakening of BBCs impartiality, to establish 'a yes men culture' arguably dismissed scrutiny to the point, the conditioning to be patronising for the listener. Tony Blair with his augments, did not make sense at the time! How to avoid conflict is supposed to be the key!

[@harrygreenaway]

"Are you writing the Labour Manifesto Alistair?" 😂 Eliza is superb.

[@wiggles877]

Talking about difficult and interesting subjects. No screeching, no sermonizing. Just four grownups in a room talking, what a show! Maybe it will catch on...

[@user-kl6os3gd5s]

Corny

[@Pincer88]

Been listening with ever increasing amounts of respect. So good to listen to people who'd normally never seek the limelight.

[@PJM273]

Rory trying to pretend he isn't/wasn't 6 is quite funny ... :)

[@jonathonjubb6626]

That answers a nagging question. It's not just me...

[@robc8892]

If you read his book about walking across Afghanistan it is clear from.how he describes things he has had some sort of training by someone.....

[@senorpillarblock3050]

​@markdaly1648 I'll be honest, I'm deeply confused by both of your comments. Are you Irish or American? It'll help understand your comment

[@realjprc]

I always thought Rory was Mi6, why else would he have walked across Afghanistan if not for intelligence gathering? Just seemed so obvious to me that it didn’t need to be said. Also his connections worldwide.. it’s just so obvious

[@markdaly1648]

​@@senorpillarblock3050I'm Irish

[@suhailski]

I like my spies being as thoughtful as these two. They have served their country well. Brava and bravo!

[@realjprc]

Yeah all three spies in this episode were great

[@michaelladouceur8894]

Superb. Insightful. Engaging. Thank you all. BTW, I’d never heard of Eliza before - a real gem of a human being. I wish her more influence in the future.

[@minton3647]

I’d just like to say this was one of the most interesting and informative podcasts I’ve ever listened to. Truly excellent stuff, thank you. I have a huge amount of respect for the people who work in military intelligence and devote their lives to the protection of our nation’s values.

[@johnrawes4908]

Really enjoyed this episode

[@wattyler6075]

Excellent interview with incredibly interesting guests.

[@TheSackblabbath]

Eliza is excellent. Outstanding guests. Thanks, guys.

[@Shaggy-8392]

They should be asking the host why he created the dossier to influence the papers.

[@DJWESG1]

It was from America, they lifted it from a students essay apparently and everything else hung on that. The fact our own ppl are so easily led and misled shows that none can be trusted. Even if they mean well. They put us all at risk.

[@oliverbergfeld1606]

Interesting to listen to these first hand insights and summaries of our more recent history. Basically they agree that much was fixed in the context of Iraq. One question of many that remain is, if the UK will ever find the backbone to go against US intentions. Looking at that episode it seems quite obvious, that the intelligence services were more a tool to rectify than to investigate thoroughly. To remain measured the latter seems a more sane approach as we in Europe are more often than not suffering the consequences of actions.

[@RobBCactive]

Like passing on the Vietnam war and protesting against the US invasion of Grenada?

[@oliverbergfeld1606]

@@RobBCactive was the baton really passed on though or was it eagerly grasped by the US..? Not sure and honestly do not really care all that much. As for Grenada, the Monroe Doctrine did that for you

[@casteretpollux]

US strategy since the end of the USSR has been " Disaggregation of Europe". The negative outcomes of US actions on Europe / the UK, can't be assumed to be accidental. Europe, severed from Russian gas and oil, is now a set of vassal states to the US. Gaza as well as the Ukraine war is being wrecked in part in the struggle fro control of oil. .

[@twometerpeter]

This was a fantastic joint interview. My partner and I listened to it in silence during a recent car journey. It was bliss 😂 please do a part two!

[@suederekfitz-gibbon7188]

Completely fascinating! So refreshing to listen to such high quality discussion from brilliant guests!

[@truthseeker8581]

Two brilliant guests with their feet firmly on the ground! I thought we had lost such sensible folk!

[@markputnam6371]

Absolutely fascinating. Experience, integrity and intelligence on full display around the table. Could have listened to these wise folk for hours. Thanks to Rory & Alistair for this brilliant series.

[@mikelaycock1469]

Disappointed to hear the myopic views of these 2 grandees on the genocide in Gaza. As if it all started on October 7th. Interesting as the conversation was, clearly all 4 are establishment figures and very comfortable in conversation with each other, in part for that reason.

[@ppetal1]

Zionism. '1984'.

[@sergeshmash2171]

​@@ppetal1Genocide? In 1950 there were 910 000 muslims west of the Jordan River...now there are 3 million in West Bank, 2 million in Gaza and 1.5 million in Israel. Some genocide. Conversely there were several hundred thousand Jews in Iran - now none, over 150 000 Jews in Syria - now none almost 1/2 million in Morrocco, Algeria and Tunisia - now about 6000. Where's the genocide. Hamas' opening statement in their manifesto calls for the eradication of, not Israel, but every Jew in the world. Wake up!

[@PamelaC23]

Utterly brilliant. Thank you so much for this amazing interview.

[@badgerisland72]

Fabulous interview and completely fascinating. Thanks guys!

[@jackganley1787]

Amazing content! Keep it up lads

[@josephturner7569]

I was on a run ashore in Brixham from Courageous in 75. We were a sneaky boat. A young chap from MI5 joined us. Stood out like a sore thumb. (His mission was to find out how much of a security risk we were when drunk. Which is why he stood many rounds. Which was nice).

[@roban28]

An incredibly good interview - really fascinating stuff!

[@pdunderhill]

Excellent interviews, thank you.

[@huwjones1817]

Rare glimpse into our intelligence system....great episode.

[@cashew1]

You guys are spot on... Rory legend!

[@Du5ty999]

Easily the best Leading episode so far. Astonishingly frank and open - detail included I didn't think would be okay to mention. Shame there isn't a part 2.

[@benwilson6145]

Thank you best programme for years!

[@hisdadjames4876]

Been a long time since Ive been proud to be British, so listening to these dedicated, clever and decent people - products of UK education, society and values - working at the core of UK public institutions -is a real revelation and morale-booster. Thanks. 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽

[@TheSurrealWolf]

Nicer listening to these people on st George's day rather than watching thus hugs in plastic armour outside Westminster

[@davidLPST]

Clearly you exclude Campbell from that statement

[@TheSurrealWolf]

@@davidLPST Talking about the guests noob

[@davidLPST]

@@TheSurrealWolf great, then I am with you because Campbell was up to his neck in that mess. BTW, not my first rodeo commenting on this podcast. Like many on here o can’t forgive him his role in that war.

[@TheSurrealWolf]

@@davidLPST I don't think I can forgive Starmers cowardice on Gaza either

[@kevancook2699]

Fascinating discussion. I could have listened for hours. Thank you

[@7...7...7]

This is a very informative podcast. Great content and very intelligent people speaking truths. Subscribed.

[@jimb9063]

Fabulous interesting guests, thank you.

[@natures_child]

It's interviews like this that make this podcast so special. I am a simple middle aged woman who takes an interest in politics but is no politico, yet I find these interviews must listens. Thank you for educating me.

[@Westerhousen]

Best vlog cast I’ve seen in a while

[@victorshackapopulus6078]

Cambell did describe himself proudly as a "Spin Doctor". Therefore he cannot be trusted.

[@DailyDamage]

What I truly enjoy about this channel - parroting other comments posted here - is the quality of both guests and the “grown up” conversations being held. We’re not all deaf and dumb to the realities of real politics. Thanks for treating us like adults. 😊

[@mspenelope6874]

I thought we already knew this. Such individuals interviewed are going straight to Hell, let’s not mistake ourselves thinking they performed dignified work or served the public honorably. Such dour, sour, haughty arrogance.

[@forklaundry]

Very interesting discussion, thank you everyone.

[@BritBike60]

Best interview I have heard this year!

[@ferociousfrankie]

Amazing episode again. The quality of this podcast is unmatched. Super insightful in a short amount of time. The candidness of these individuals compared to their U.S. counterparts is very much appreciated.

[@humphreybradley3060]

Your BEST one yet! Fantastic insight, questioning etc! Top quality, fascinating content!

[@maddi3582]

Fabulous discussion. Thank you!

[@simjrob]

Fantastic episode. Refreshing to hear such grown up discussion.

[@markrichter2053]

Regime change, illegal war and interference in due process exerted by the US (51:49) From someone who pays relatively little attention, here’s is a list I’ve made myself, of places where I know the US have exerted illegal influence, if not all out war and regime change. Cold War and onward: Iraq Afghanistan Chile Granada Cuba Vietnam Guam Mexico The Philippines Hawaii Panama Honduras Nicaragua Haiti The Dominican Republic El Salvador WW2: Japan Korea East China Germany Italy Now I’m not saying that their support for the allies in WW2 was a problem. Although even here, and immediately after WW2 the style of operations of the US as a conquering force was certainly designed to effect the changes that suited their own political interests throughout, as was the case, to a lesser extent with the UK as well. For John Sawyers to suggest at 51:49 that these are exceptions, seems rather a stretch, when it really looks more like a long term strategy is behind this pattern of policy operations, rather than it being merely a few exceptions.

[@thepoweroflove3281]

And Yugoslavia NATO aircraft bombed Yugoslavia from March to June 1999 without the approval of the UN Security Council. The operation, which lasted 11 weeks, was called "Allied Force". More than 2 thousand civilians and 1 thousand military personnel became victims, more than 5 thousand people were injured, more than 1 thousand were missing.

[@albiepalbie5040]

Why not just have the two hosts speaking honestly about their roles ?

[@antonomaseapophasis5142]

21:04 “Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11” I remember walking through London in protest, along with hundreds of thousands of people who explained this with specific documentation and fact-based reasoning.

[@antonomaseapophasis5142]

I should mention that I am a US citizen born in Brooklyn, resident in NYC on 9/11, who had seen the places attacked in Dar es Salaam, knew a little about the Levant, visited the trials in Lower Manhattan, and that I would run into antipathy in the US when I would point out that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

[@howlingmocassin2917]

best yet, brilliant, thank you

[@bethanyschool]

Its almost as if with this podcast they want us to believe MI5/MI6/Government are trustworthy ......so we trust them in future events. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@michellegilder1558]

😂😂😂😂😂

[@livingadventures5623]

I don´t think for one moment ex members of the British Secret Services could be either open or honest. Managed truths and lies at best. Alistair and Rory gave a very polished presentation as usual.

[@lindaezekiel6872]

Another fascinating episode!

[@NoughtsAndCrossess]

Wonderful conversation! Fantastic hosting of fantastically interesting guests!

[@brucestening7964]

Absolutely brilliant

[@ianjones883]

Its good to see that our secret services / civil service are political and are outside of the government influencing goverment . So who do they work for????

[@garethwonham]

What a brilliant episode. Exactly how interviews should be done

[@Pricklyhedgehog72]

Absolutely riveting and an insightful analysis of world issues, while lifting the shroud covering the back room operations of international espionage and diplomacy.

[@steveknight878]

I worry greatly that no good resolution to the Israel/Palestine situation will come about. Israel has long, for the most part, refused to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians. There are some exceptions, but unfortunately the Prime Ministers at the time lost power, and the incoming PM has rescinded what agreements were made. They now have Netanyahu, who throughout his career has denied the existence of Palestinians and Palestine as concepts, has always distrusted and hated all Arabs, which he regards as the enemy. He has always regarded military strength as the only bargaining position, and that Israel should not give up any land for peace. He has perpetuated the 'facts on the ground' tactic by encouraging settlers to make it difficult or impossible to create a Palestinian state. I'm not sure that someone with his mindset can every negotiate a peace settlement with the Palestinians - who have, over the years, conceded much more than Israel ever has.

[@khar12d8]

I am not a fan of Netanyahu but his govt was developing closer and friendlier relations with the Arab nations, including the UAE (they both hate Iran). You had the Abraham Accords, quite the achievement funnily enough by the Trump White House. This could have resulted eventually in something changing in regards to a Palestinian state but Hamas launched the attack. You could make a guess that Hamas launched said attack in the hope of wrecking Israel/ Arab relations for another generation. Equally, you could argue the Israeli response has been what Hamas wants. Hamas do not care about their soldiers or civilians dying, they are committed to a glorious God desired cause. They believe everyone who dies for the cause will get rewarded in the afterlife.

[@chindit6784]

​@@khar12d8the Abraham accords offered nothing for a Palestinian state. It was giving up Palestine for support from America and Israel against Iran.

[@patrickwalker4159]

​@@khar12d8 The very purpose of the Abraham Accords was to bypass the need for Israel to make an aggreement with the Palestinians. Trump undermined international law and convention yet again when he moved the US embassy to Jerusalem.

[@ayoub.3939]

Those regime dont ​represent arabs@@khar12d8