The Ugly Sides of Competitive Melee

[@JuicemanSSBM]

Hey guys. It’s kinda hard not to notice how the ugly sides of Melee video has been reuploaded. This was done to more accurately cover the topic of SG vs Fortune, which was put together very well in my opinion. I wanna give a special thanks to Zain Naghmi, my buddy eric, and a couple of MDVA veterans for helping me clear up a story that is not very well documented I know it will be very hard to have this upload gain the same traction as the original, but I personally do not want a video of mine to blow up after not getting the facts straight the first time I recommend giving this video a watch again with the new edited portion. If you are only interested in watching the new section, that’s fine too. Below is the time stamp from beginning to end of new portion: 32:30-39:04 Hope you guys understand. And if you don’t, at least I do (:

[@mspark9069]

After I kept seeing people online drag Fortune even after his passing I believed his name would never be cleared. More people need to see the truth, thank you.

[@ComFurt]

I might not have come across this beautifully made video had you not reuploaded it, so no complaints here! This is super well put together and explains these lesser-seen moments in a super entertaining way. Good shit, subbed!

[@celiafrostborn]

To be fair he was that grimy guy, did he deserve that harsh a treatment though? I'd say no, I'd have made it a meme at most and not taken it too seriously. More of a funny he will ask me to SD if I help him out. What he got is overkill XD.

[@woodtsunami]

Damn that really touched me man thank you

[@TramiNguyen-oi3kp]

Awesome video!

[@CheekyRuin]

Leffen pausing the game to tell scar to sd bc of pause clause is so funny to me its like “alright dude, you next” lol

[@wiki-dg3fc]

Honestly I thought this video was just going to be about leffen

[@frogchip6484]

The funniest part is that years later during a smash summit iron man between Leffen and Axe, Leffen accidentally pauses (coincidentally on FD) and immediately SDs as a result. Scar being on comms then yells "THATS RIGHT LEFFEN!"

[@ChrisStavros]

Why is it funny? That's what you're supposed to do when you call out pausing.

[@Spacewinterknight]

Your part of the community that bullied that guy to death your part of the problem

[@Js-eq7yd]

​@@ChrisStavrosLeffen is a loser

[@Chizypuff]

Westballs is remarkably patient in that conversation

[@luf4rall]

Because Jason is autistic

[@UntarLaManteca]

I would've shouted at M2K till my voice was no more. Respect to Wes for not doing that

[@luf4rall]

@@UntarLaManteca M2K is on the spectrum so he can't really help it

[@epicgamer-ur1wg]

@@luf4rallhuh?????

[@luf4rall]

@@epicgamer-ur1wg M2K is autistic. M2K and Westballz have known each other for a long time.

[@Gibbidens]

I love how Westballz tries to make some sense into M2K argument by telling that his strategy was way too good to not work because of his skills without insulting him for doing so, but by reinforcing his points ahaha

[@fumoffu_l]

If I were in Moky's position, I would look tell the TOs "Nope. You're the TO, not me. You have to make the call." There's no way he wouldn't have been vilified for taking the win. The TOs practically forced him to give up the win. It's speculation, but I don't see any reason to not make the decision as a TO other than not wanting to be the "bad guy" in the situation.

[@bundiderp5109]

Exactly. This decision cannot be made by the player, it has to be ruled by the judges.

[@Drianikaben]

The fact that leffen brought up the air time limit, means that it should never be added to the game.

[@FL_Mobile_Beats]

Lmao truetruetruetruetrue

[@SonyaBladesBooty]

Leffen is lame

[@ZacUAX]

I don't think there's any other pro Melee player with equal amounts of salt and skill. Leffen is an incredible player, and incredibly petty.

[@ILiekFishes]

leffen was a sleeper agent for big puff to elicit this exact reaction

[@danielhodson6411]

​@ZacUAX Leffen should have been an f1 driver lmao, all they do mid race is whine about other drivers over the radio.

[@NEPO_]

For those wondering, the cause of the reupload appears to be the Fortune segment at 32:40. Having seen both versions it looks like reuploading was the right choice, especially considering the context, so thanks for not just sweeping it under the rug. Great video!

[@kevinmaldonado2356]

Why what happened?

[@ROYBGP]

I'm confused. What happened?

[@Tankotater]

As someone who never saw the original upload, I'm guessing the bit about how Fortune was still close with all his homies and the unfortunate ending were not in the original?

[@MasterChaoko]

​​@@TankotaterIt was a shorter segment that basically went "Fortune did this grimey thing and got ostracized, isn't that crazy?" before ending with an offhand mention that he died in 2022. This new version cuts around the orignal's uncritical acceptance of the "grime" narrative and offers a more tastefull takeaway

[@bigslim7777]

Man, THIS is why melee is a lame game that wasn't MEANT to be played at high level. You can't DO this shit in SF or Tekken 🙄

[@cognizant3252]

30:50 I have broken the pause rule exactly once and fought it. I used to play local competitive scene. I was the only girl in the local scene at the time, and people often tried to make stupid calls against me, when they had no rights. I’m very serious about the rules. I’ve gotten nosebleeds and kept playing, threw up in a bag and kept playing, etc. I don’t pause. Not for anything - except for one time. I got a call from a family member that never calls me. Someone picked it up for me (I asked them to), they went pale and told me to pause and insisted I had to talk to my family right now, as someone in my family had just died. So, I turned to the other players and we all kinda nodded and I took the phone and paused the game. I came back a few minutes later, and decided to finish the set before going home out of good sportsmanship/I wanted to still give the crowd a show. And you know what happened? My opponent hit me with pause clause. They told me to take my stock. And I obviously fought them on that because that’s stupid, we all agreed I had to pause and it was serious. Literally every other player in the room stood up and said I had every right to pause, and that if they forced the clause, they would walk. I still lost that set, but I’ll never forget how my little community banded for me.

[@lincolnbio6768]

hullo i know this is a month old comment but i liked your story and am sorry for your loss, i hope your life has improved and people are generally more respectful

[@krowpan799]

The silver lining is that your opponent will probably not maintain their A-game when they're fighting someone who literally just vomited and decided to keep the set going.

[@abaddon5420]

This never happened, and why did you feel the need to point out you're "female" when it has nothing to do with your story? What an attention seeking loser

[@abaddon5420]

This never happened, and why did you feel the need to point out you're "female" when it has nothing to do with your story? Strange little attention seeker lol

[@snared_]

Why not take your stock and then play out of your mind to get the comeback? Hell, I'll be 2 stocks down and still know yeah I'm going to win this game and grind it hard to sell a win. You gotta look at it as an opportunity. Take the stock and threaten gimp kills to gain percent, be fast and cunning out of neutral and you can easily make back up that stock with a few wins. I mean I guess you didn't want to take the punishment laid out in the rules, I get that, but I don't know why when you realized you were on the hook for an SD that you wouldn't take it and then try to win. You could have won that way instead you lost by fighting the rule. I wonder what kind of difference it would have made in your life to seize that opportunity and win, I mean, likely it doesn't change anything. Ultimately I'm sorry your family member passed away, rest in peace to them.

[@julytakahashi4360]

56:45 yes, Moky did agree to restart the game, but the TOs decision to let him decide was wrong. They're the TOs, THEY have to decide. I felt bad for Moky, he decided to restart the game and lost mostly because of the audience taunting him.

[@HarrisonWeber21]

The fact that Fortune is gone is insane to me. Genuinely tragic…

[@jamiehovis7722]

How did he die

[@gnarlyismymiddlename]

Nah, M2K is playing like a rat. HBox camping against a broken mechanic is fairplay.

[@whatsupbossanova]

that's just how he plays every game 5

[@Bladieblah]

Troll or serious? Hard to tell but it's literally the same thing

[@gnarlyismymiddlename]

@@Bladieblah dead serious. Approach or get fucked.

[@GinkgoPete]

​@@BladieblahNo because Hbox doesnt go on tirades against this play and himself admits its lame. M2K will grand stand about Puff being lame and then doing this shit constantly

[@ericlim4589]

hey yall, I'm the eric mentioned in the pinned comment. I'm an MDVA TO, a friend of Fortune's, and was someone who reached out about the previous version of the video. I was the one who asked for and worked on the revision. Some of you have mentioned feeling confused and looking for answers about this version of Fortune's story. I understand that feeling. That's on purpose, unfortunately. Fortune was private about his pain. I asked that specific details be removed. Honestly, I'm still uncomfortable with how much I've shared on Fortune's behalf but I think it's necessary to keep pushing against the narrative that haunted him. I promise you that Fortune and SG were friends. He and I were friends. I promise that the grime video is a misunderstanding. He struggled with the backlash to it. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to reveal more details about Fortune, so you'll have to take my word for it. If you don't believe me, please at least know that there are people out there still grieving him. Juiceman treated Fortune's memory with care. He didn't have to take down the previous video or revise the section, but he took it seriously and with urgency. I'm grateful to him and I ask for as much kindness as you can gather.

[@flashbackfrank8781]

All it would have taken was SG/Fortune making a public statement cooperatively, explaining that it was a joke and letting SG acknowledge to his fans it was a meme. A quick way to squelch that shit real quick but people always think about their pride first ig.....

[@ericlim4589]

@@flashbackfrank8781 before I reply, have you ever won a tournament set of melee?

[@j.c.1452]

me looking for who asked @@ericlim4589

[@Get_Low]

Did he kill himself?

[@sorimasn]

@@Get_Lowseems so.

[@Nahoc]

I can't believe the TOs gave Moky the final say in that decision. What a stupid decision to put it all on the competitor. Imagine if this was the Olympics and you'd ask the competitor to make this kind of call against another competitor. You would insta-ruin your reputation by taking the W. Seriously suprised that such a terrible decision was taken.

[@PkKirby]

Yup, you are there to organize the tournament and make sure it runs smooth. Even though this wasn’t in the rules, you still have the power as a TO to make a decision. They put the pressure on Moky instead, which is hella unprofessional. I have to assume the crowd didn’t know about this happening, because them cheering for JMook was the biggest smack in the face to Moky after he decided to replay the game. Moky coulda just taken the win and they woulda missed out on 2 extra games. Shoulda been more grateful for his sacrifice.

[@tiedie3995]

​@@PkKirbyFelt the same way. Moky showed good sportsmanship & did the respectable thing by giving Jmook a 2nd shot instead of taking an easy W. Must have felt like a slap in the face when the crowd turned against him by cheering for Jmook & then the other players called his response childish. I would have felt cheated too. It also seems strange to me that these guys are playing at a professional level & Jmook didn't have a spare controller? If a competitor accidentally unplugs their controller or doesn't bother to bring a spare then that should be on them

[@MrFlejon]

@@tiedie3995 I was there and couldn't believe I had to explain why this was such a stupid decision. "It's not his fault his controller broke". It's your responsibility to not break your controller. As simple as that. The to was just trying to be cool and lovable the entire event so he didn't have the ballz to enforce the rule

[@iang257]

Im suprised Ice Climbers hadnt caused actual irl violence.

[@AndrewDevourer]

im down for changing that if i have to play one more game against those demons

[@Kajssbm]

Actually it did in BRawl. Mike Haze once screamed in his opponents ear to make him drop his ICs chaingrabs

[@user-vk2cd9qw7i]

BRILLIANT LMAO @@Kajssbm

[@rastas_4221]

If Melee was an arcade game like most fighting games, it sure as hell would get your ass beaten and banned from the place.

[@MrDeldris]

The fact that they have a "no assaulting your opponent" rule makes me think it had to have come close at some point.

[@Cody27]

why would you allow such a clearly broken move like wobbling and then try to ban the response to wobble? lol

[@MrDeldris]

The smash community is a total joke, nobody gives a shit about fairness just whatever will give them an edge.

[@YOSSARIAN313]

Wobbling should never have been banned and neither should freeze glitch

[@smithclaxton3357]

​@@YOSSARIAN313lol

[@benjamincordova8086]

Because that same "response" can be used to completely invalidate more then half the roster not to mention h-box already kinda had the whole "stall to win" thing going on well before this set ever happened. Wobbling should probably stay banned but H-box also used one of the least competitive strategies to take the set. Even if wobbling was banned there's the very realistic chance H-box would've resorted to playing like this anyway once he started losing so convincingly

[@karlhans6678]

@YOSS ppl liku u make the smash community a joke.

[@GeneralUile]

Mew2king playing in the scummiest way possible barring wobbling and then proceeding to say "hey man you didn't even try" is infuriating.

[@whiskeypixels]

He played the matchup within the rules tho, don't hate the player, hate the game

[@GeneralUile]

@@whiskeypixels it's not even about being in the rules or not. It is, but he knows its a very scummy playstyle, so going up to your opponent to talk shit is just gonna make you look like a fool.

[@whiskeypixels]

@@GeneralUile I don't see any meaningful distinction anymore than Jigglypuff using up throw rest or any character ledge guarding

[@GeneralUile]

@@whiskeypixels and we'd mostly agree, but again, the point here is M2K going up to the person he just beat through lame tactics just to talk shit.

[@whiskeypixels]

@@GeneralUile did he? I didn't know that and I'm not privy to the details of that particular exchange. I do know M2K has Asperger's which affects his social interactions and he has a different fundamental understanding of certain social norms.

[@Adolesence]

RIP Fortune and thank you for spreading his story

[@jamiehovis7722]

How did he die? Was it suicide?

[@michaelstringfellow6754]

Yes​@@jamiehovis7722

[@zazenbo]

I miss my wife

[@elijaramillo6454]

i miss the old me

[@JMAC..]

@zazenbo me too

[@Zaxh01]

Stay strong brother

[@yellow4525]

She's in good hands don't worry

[@kubokubo6347]

You play smash melee, you never had one. Melee is your real wife now.

[@Ryusuta]

I love the irony of players switching to Phob controllers in order to prevent small malfunctions from wear and tear; only to cause HUGE malfunctions with maybe one year of use.

[@duskpede5146]

this is a really good doc, i love the style of weaving through a bunch of different sets with all these common through lines to really tell a story and build a case for why things are the way they are

[@HHHero73]

In regards to the RU Fortune segment; I have a pretty unique perspective because I live in the DMV (known to the smash community as MD/VA) and actually knew Fortune through a close friend of his. Fortune was known as a decent guy with a bit of misguided humor, but struggled with personal battles. When this clip blew up in the smash community a lot of us were on the mindset of “did Fortune really do that?” It seemed a bit out of character but also believable. I’m not here to tarnish his reputation since he’s no longer with us, but the whole truth is that he “admitted” to joking about it only after the game had finished, and the common sentiment was a clear divide of “sure you did bud” and “ok well that was a bad joke.” Most of us at the time all had the same line of thought, “If it was a joke in poor taste, why string it along til after the set?” Truth be told he never had one clear answer, and as the weeks turned into months the main counter story you heard was that it was supposed to be a joke, but his actions and demeanor contradicted this. In the end, he wasn’t a BAD guy and was forgiven by the community here, but the whole truth isn’t so black and white, he tried to get away with it, and then covered up, apologized, and moved on after the fact. People make mistakes, and in competition all’s fair, but Fortune’s situation has truth on both sides. I hope people learn to recognize it was a bad moment in his legacy and move past it, but I also believe some of the criticism was earned; he pushed the “joke” too far and only admitted so after everybody’s reactions and the game playing out. He apologized for the poor moment and was forgiven. Anything other than that is twisting the story for a subjective opinion. I hope Fortune rests in peace, and people can stop coming in to the situation with charged opinions. He wasn’t a saint who was misunderstood, but he also wasn’t the devil incarnate, he was somebody who tried to take advantage, realize he messed up, covered it as a joke, apologized, and moved on.

[@bluespidrlily]

did he end his own life or pass away from other factors?

[@Szriko]

@@bluespidrlily he paused

[@r4v4g3r]

@@Szriko automatic DQ tho 😢

[@feathero3]

Well said, and my sentiments as well. Terrible thing to do, joke or not, and likely was being serious at the time. Doesn't make him a terrible human overall, and he definitely doesn't deserve to be off this Earth over it. Sounds like he had some good friends at least. Hope they made his time more enjoyable through life.

[@CleaveTheDragon]

yeah I watched that clip and it really didn't come off as a joke. With a joke you just mention it once and as soon as they respond, you move on. He was pretty committed to that until being told to keep going. Hearing this stuff after the fact comes off as all "it's just a prank bro!" to save face. I don't really know the factors surrounding his death and I don't wanna justify if he got a lot of hate for it. But if you're gonna pull the "all this over a children's party game" card, that also applies to the guy himself and learning to shrug it off when people don't assume you were joking in the moment.

[@KJsGotGame]

With the disconnect rule as written, if someone has at least a one stock lead when they disconnect and they take long enough to get a spare controller connected, they can win due to time out. The other player can't pause the timer. To combat this, it needs to be that they start a new game with whatever the current stocks were (minus one for the disconnecter). Either that or just an automatic game forfeit.

[@RedXLink]

Fantastic video. I love your narrative empathetic style. Great stuff and thank you for reuploading the Fortune SG portion to add more much needed context.

[@javipok]

Thank you for the upload. I definitely remember seeing that Fortune SG moment so long ago and always thinking in my head “wow that Fortune guy is scummy”. But seeing this now, can’t help but feel bad for all the misinformation spread about a silly moment.

[@fumoffu_l]

Regarding Hbox vs Chudat. If you want to play lame, don't get mad when your opponent responds by playing lame. I occasionally do Ultimate locals. Some new guy showed up playing Toon Link. He would run away and spam projectiles. Naturally my response was to get a % lead, and just stand at the opposite end of the stage, easily dodging all of the projectiles. He eventually got frustrated and started running at me, and the match ended pretty quickly after that. There's no fundamental difference. Chudat was playing lame the entire tournament, and Hbox's response to play lame for 1 round, and people still try to vilify him for that. And yes. It's not the same thing as M2K. M2K had no reason to think he'd lose without playing that way. M2K was playing that way on his own. He wasn't playing lame in response to someone playing lame. He was just playing lame. And I doubt anyone would have cared as much as they did if he wasn't such a shit about how Puff needs a ledge grab limit but no one else. He is literally the reason there is a ledge grab limit implemented now. It is fundamentally different.

[@xolotltolox7626]

M2K just saw his opponent didn't know how to deal with him at the ledge, and wasn't even trying to challenge him there, so he used that tactic It's no different than someone just chaingrabbing you to death 8 times as shiek, because you don't know how to avoid getting grabbed

[@marikiri5119]

@@xolotltolox7626 I'd still disagree. How do you really contest Marth on the ledge? Aerials or shine won't work, he'll just respond with up-b. Wavedashing out of shield won't work either, as you are still vulnerable before you grab the ledge, which is exactly what M2K would want. Challenging M2K on the ledge is the same as SDing yourself at this point, but with more effort really

[@xolotltolox7626]

@@marikiri5119 not interacting is a guaranteed loss, interacting is a high chance of a loss, so you should interact Sorry the game you're playing is shit, but that's how it goes

[@thedankhold8443]

Didn't even realize this was a reupload tbh, I've seen this in my recommended for a bit and decided to check it out. Really high quality stuff.

[@Finncelot]

mad respect for reuploading to clarify the fortune thing, i remember on my first watch it felt a little underexplored.

[@AxeToday]

I never knew about the Fortune incident, or even that he had passed, but It’s really awesome that you brought this up in the video. This will do a lot of good for this community, I feel

[@x9x9x9x9x9]

You know what sucks about typing really long youtube comments. Is when you type it up and the video is then removed, re-edited, and reuploaded lol. I gotta stop writing essay length youtube comments. Thats on me. Anyways time to mute the video and leave it running to give this channel my view again.

[@coolman6139]

It's good to continue writing essays on youtube. Videos being reupload means to continue making more essays to have chance of newer people seeing it now.

[@x9x9x9x9x9]

@@coolman6139 It's a little insane but I kinda use KZbin comments as a form of therapy or a journal just venting random crap. What's funny is 2 years later someone replying and me having no recollection of even watching the video or leaving the comment. But part of that is half the comments I leave are done at like 2am after taking sleep medication.

[@coolman6139]

@@x9x9x9x9x9 same thing man. It helps make life better using it as therapy as well.

[@coolman6139]

@@x9x9x9x9x9 no idea why youtube didn't notify until now. But yeah I do it myself as well. It helps with hard times. Good to know it helps you as well.

[@medea27]

@@x9x9x9x9x9 Never let people raised with a TikTok attention span stop you from writing essays in the comments... not only is it usually therapeutic for the writer but it's also helpful for readers to get a different viewpoint and often learn something as well. The comment section is often a great source of clarification, insight & even completely unrelated knowledge... I often read the comments section when I don't have much personal experience with the video topic like this, because I know in many communities (especially around niche topics or specific games) there are always passionate individuals sharing valuable info amongst the quips, hot takes & trolls. Essay away! 👍

[@burgerchild]

TOs should never allow the players to decide whether or not they want to take a game/enforce a pause rule. If the game is paused for any reason, the TOs must make the decision. That decision should usually be to force the player to lose the stock/round, but under a circumstance like Scar's, where pause was enabled when it shouldn't have been, there is some nuance. That nuance should always be handled by the TOs, not forced onto the players. Edit: realized you cover this basically word for word later in the vid lol

[@XxbelligerentxX]

Had no idea about Fortune. I hope his loved ones are doing well. Thanks for shedding more light on the situation bc he truly never deserved all the harassment, including from me, regarding his moment with SG. Thanks for this video. Great watch highlighting some infamous moments that always stuck out to me

[@GameMaster00744]

i never heard of the backstory and aftermath of fortune's story. it breaks my heart knowing this was all because of a failed bit

[@F0restz]

it's funny how there's probably a lot of grand finals + reset that go on longer than this video literally called "The Ugly Sides of Competitive Melee"

[@mattutter3525]

Wobbling was a blight on the game and there's no way any sane person can seriously justify it not being banned.

[@cyrain3843]

Always thought it was fine

[@mattutter3525]

@@cyrain3843 laughably bad take

[@notreallythin]

Speaking of justification, do you know what the objectives were for wobbling being legal? I feel as if making a pseudo infinite legal must have some merit behind it.

[@vann158]

Maybe I missed something, but when Leffen made Scar give up the stock for pausing in the doubles match, didn’t you also say that the rules say that pause is supposed to be off? Since it wasn’t off couldn’t it be argued that the whole match was invalid and should be replayed?

[@eidwight_teh_revenant]

18:11 "damn, that is actually one of the top 5 stupidest things leffen has ever said" i actually love this

[@axelace4463]

Fortune was a skilled and great part of the community. Give people a break, time moves for a reason.

[@Chris-cp7bm]

It was scummy and he should be called out for it.

[@crankheart]

@@Chris-cp7bm it was a bad joke that didnt deserve to have his reputation completely ruined for

[@orinlee6123]

wobbling not being banned in NA for so long was an indictment of the scene. It was dumb to watch and people who ran tournaments and allowed it simply suck ass.

[@leaderofthepenguins]

I had never heard about the truth of that Fortune/SG game, and never learned of his passing either until this video. Thanks for sharing the truth of it.

[@qcnpdasnice6716]

Yo Juiceman! RUSH from Nebs here! Great vid man, hope to see more in the future! I fully agree with the disconnect rule, it's completely necessary and I think your wording for it is perfect

[@hexhiaa]

"he was beating everyone's favorite top players" *shows leffen lmao*

[@lime7111]

A very important correction and reupload. It says a lot. about your character to do this after the original did so well. Letting this run once again for that watchtime and the algorithm.

[@jaspervermeer659]

Fortune was so obviously joking it hurts to see people be so dumb

[@nehemiah9190]

I'm really confused why controller disconnects would ever be a contentious issue. In my opinion, it should be the responsibility of the competitor (especially if they are professional) to maintain the controller to their best ability. I'm also surprised that the current rules around pauses and other "disruptive" instances creates a some-what precedent for how disconnects would be treated. I feel really bad for moky being put in that lose-lose situation.

[@jaykelley103]

The ugly side of melee is the players. And the pdf file shit of course

[@poleon2003]

One interesting thing about the chu vs hbox facade was that ICs-Puff is actually WAY more doable for ICs if the puff ACTUALLY doesn't play campy like from what I've been told it's actually only truly a terrible MU for ICs if the puff plays campy but if she doesn't then it's actually way more managable for ICs

[@JustAPlayOnWords]

Wow what an amazing video, thank you for bringing more light into the Fortune situation and even reuploading it to get the facts straight

[@mindgam3s_youtube]

I just wanted to say thank you for clarifying on the Fortune case. I didn't know that and as you said; this is what I was recognizing this guy for... but not anymore. rest in peace Fortune. what a bad backlash for a joke you made and people "ripping it out of context"...

[@jewels3846]

I never saw the original but am glad to have read why it was reuploaded and Erics comment as well. I hope Fortune is resting in peace and am sad he was haunted by a decision the public crucified him for when at the end of the day, everyone makes mistakes or takes things too far sometimes. This video seems very thoughtfully done and am glad you are the kind of respectable person to fix the section when those close to Fortune asked you too. I may be a stranger online, but I do appreciate the revision and it will keep me browsing your past videos and looking forward to new ones as well as raising my respect in you as a person and creator. Thank you.

[@CosyMatt]

I’ve never liked M2K and 8:31 has just confirmed my not hatred but distaste for the man lol

[@AnarchyIsLove]

the wobble against Mew2King was satisfying and justified

[@KamiSanzo]

We need the ledge grab limit to be lower in succession, like 10 times without being hit is more than enough planking time

[@mysticsamus]

respect for reuploading it to correct something. commenting for the algorithm

[@TBDF12]

It's hard to feel bad when a the opponent is an ice climber, theres so many broken and crazy options

[@SturtH9]

Moky shows incredible sportsmanship & the crowd can’t even show a bit of class and empathy.. Ffs you don’t boisterously cheer on the other guy after that..

[@tetermc]

There's one thing I would change about the controller disconnect rule; Just make a disconnect be an automatic stock forfeit by default. Don't leave it up to the opponent. Leaving it up to the opponent will just put them into a poor position where they'll feel pressured to just let it slide. And if one guy lets it slide while others ask for the stock, it will just lead to the players asking for the stock to look bad. Just make one stock the default, mandatory penalty. No pressure on either of the players, it's just another rule that needs to be followed with no exceptions. As a side note, I'd avoid using nebulous language and immeasurable metrics like "when x leads to loss of momentum" and things like that. I mean, how does one quantify momentum? It's just too vague and can lead to confusion, a lot like the "excessive stalling" rule.

[@anonamoly]

"i will show you something that will guarantee to make you smile" the "woah, didnt mean to bring the vibe down" immediately after the genuine heartfelt discussion of mental health and how important "the bigger picture" can be in the grand scheme of things already made me laugh

[@sonicrose8430]

im from a different sport called Sporting Clays but ive seen similar situations to the controller issues happen. Melee absolutely needs a rule regarding controller malfunction and DC. In our sport its really simple, you have a set amount of time to either fix your gun or get a spare or you're game is over. Melee can possibly benefit from a similarly written rule to avoid such a situation as Moky and JMook from happening again regardless of how rare the situation is. If a malfunction disconnect or a disconnect determined by TO's to be accidental occurs, the DC'd player has a set amount of time to fix or replace the controller and play will resume as normal, if a stock is lost in the incident and it is determined to be caused by the disconnect, the game will be reset to the conditions of just before the DC, players will reset to neutral positions, and play will resume

[@DanklingBS]

The editing makes looking back on melee history feel like some crime biopic 😂 it’s pretty cool

[@PickyMcCritical]

i thought this video would be focused on the history of toxic attitudes and pedophilia at tournament venues.

[@HoloBoss]

Why would you judge people for implementing winningstrategys jsut because it might not be interesting for spectators? if there is so many unfair strategys then maybe the game is jsut dogshit, have you ever concidered that??

[@asianbeowulf4276]

The game itself isn’t dogshit, it’s just that it was twisted by the competitive smash community to fit their definition of a competitive “fighting game.” Sakurai has always insisted that the smash games are purely casual party games and that’s always been his intent when developing them.

[@timmerss9423]

Nobody is saying that camping isn’t a legitimate strategy - it’s just incredibly boring and takes away from the spirit of the game. Braindead argument

[@HoloBoss]

@@timmerss9423 roomtemperature iq🙉

[@Spacewinterknight]

Found the stalling for 8 mins hbox fan. You probably think wobbling is interesting to watch

[@tree_trunkk]

it's pretty fascinating for moky because I first discovered him when he was in ludvix's video, and he was a really chill laid back guy while playing very good. to see him crash out over something he unfairly couldn't control with an audience fully against him is THE fucking hbox career experience. he got hit with the hbox pov simulation

[@mikeoxlong4392]

anyone else feel dirty after watching the fortune segment god I feel so bad for writing him off as that one grimy guy now

[@dongodongo12]

This video was great, it needs to get the recognition it deserves

[@gloinschmelzer7601]

If the "phob" isnt working as its supposed to, maybe instead of implementing complex rules the SSBM scene should focus on finding and paying a professional electric- manufacturer to optimize the circuit-board and its components

[@drainstorM11]

I feel like that Fortune video only ever went viral because of him playing Puff. It supported a massive narrative of the time that Puff was the best character in the game and ruined competition. That idea is wrong, but I think there's some validity to the airtime stalling stuff you've mentioned here. However, I think the other issue was that this Fortune video has gone viral many times, because a bunch of Smash content creators, most notably ZeRo, have promoted the idea that Fortune was a grimy player. I'm not trying to blame him, but I do think there's a lot of negligence in the community, a large reason why I stopped attending events. This has shown up in many other ugly ways for the community, so here's me saying spread kindness and watch out for fellow competitors. Competition can create toxicity very easily.

[@penti8345]

u know it’s bad when even i (someone who isn’t really a smash player) can look at something and know it should be banned immediately

[@kopfdertoten466]

The ugly side is that they don't take showers.

[@drewzi2044]

I don’t care about your stats on HB. Wobbling was legal, that makes any matchup with ice climbers unfair.

[@ElProblemo1]

I’ll never forget the first time I ever played Melee. I went on a summer vacation with my buddy to stay with his big Brother near the army base in Sumter, South Carolina. We literally did nothing all summer, but eat hot pockets and play melee

[@salvatore_slate]

i feel the change to the Fortune section makes it seem like the grime clip was related to his death, is that the case?

[@MeesterTweester]

No, he passed away recently

[@zilrog-diggidy76]

Are you really confused why the comments are different for M2K vs Hbox? Really? One was against the wobblers, the other was against just a regular ass falco. If Hbox had done that against anyone EXCEPT the wobble king himself he would have been torn to shreds. Great video essay until you started comparing those two situations as if they are even close to the same...

[@elephantyarn7378]

The video essay literally comes to the same conclusion as you

[@dylarper]

Great video, and I love the FFX/X-2 music

[@Hey.This.Is.Stuart]

Hearing what happened to fortune is very upsetting.

[@tankfire20]

Holy fucking shit. I didnt know about fortune. I didnt realize his motive was to challenge the ruleset. Thank you for setting the history straight.

[@brett1908]

1:12 ain’t no way my guy put a lucki meme in a melee video. 😂 also great video.

[@355scaper]

For the Leffen pause thing I get being "competitive" but moves like that are not competitive, you do them because you feel like you can't outplay your opponent and need petty outside help like that

[@keinkanal7382]

I love how even in a video centered around the overall issues with the melee ruleset, leffen's asshole-ishness still is center stage

[@fortisch]

13:20 we gave a top 40 player an infinite and he performs great all of a sudden. Crazy.

[@baritonetenor]

IC having a borderline instakill means HB didn't play uninteractive he played defensive in the only way you can defend against an instant kill.

[@martin99110]

All I learned from this video is Melee players have no honor in gaming.

[@naw726]

it attracts the sweatiest stinkiest neckbeardiest people possible. that whole "its optimal.. its optimal" its optimal to do a lot of scummy annoying things but a game is a game and if all you care about at a point is optimal play, give up and find a new hobby

[@biohazardbin]

Melee players truly are pretty terrible people. I was friends with one at one point and good lord he was cheesy and not very honorable, and when I won they would always scoff and tell me either they fluked or I got lucky. truly not a community I'd ever want to be apart of.

[@anonymouscausethatshowirol828]

More like M2K has no honor in gaming, most of these examples are his. Even as a fellow autist I look at his behavior and cringe a bit

[@ColeBresnehen]

One time I played a melee players, and after I won, he found me on social media and would go on to stalk me for 11 years. He later killed my dog

[@jy61]

"Honor" is made up in gaming. The rules are already built into the game. If you have to impose additional rules onto the game, you just have a bad game for competitive play.

[@beefykyogre3991]

Yasiin Bey Mathematics beat on a Melee video brings me such joy

[@looktheworldintheye]

Poor fortune man, watching it from a new POV is genuinely so funny bruh.

[@justsomeweirdperson]

idk if youre gonna read this but i wanted to chime in a little bit on your argument for an airtime limit. the main problem is that an airtime limit really only affects one characters matchups, and its ICs. Peach can also abuse being able to stay in the air against ICs, even moreso than Puff, but *only* against ICs. in any other matchup they arent camping in the air, theyre just using their air mobility as one of their biggest strengths. implementing an airtime limit because it stops ICs from having matchups that are 20/80 is not only unfair to the floaties, but isnt in line with the other bans discussed in the vid, where the technique can be done against anyone.

[@sakuyarules]

If you watch the match between Hbox and Leffen that caused Leffen to make the "air time limit" statement, you'll see that Leffen spent way more time running away and being non-interactive. Overall the video was pretty good, but the first bit felt like someone presenting their subjective opinions and speculation as facts and objective truths.

[@ScatterBrainedYouBetterFollow]

Imagine making one awkward joke and it literally reshapes how the world sees you forever, even passed your death. I hope the future is kind to his name

[@burntfish123]

It was always absolutely wild to me how long wobbling stayed legal. Toxic camp strat that carries its players and is beaten by camping even harder. Melee players have always been stubborn when it comes to change but ffs this one needed to not be a thing from the start

[@BigHailFan]

Melee fans: "Lol, all the other games are garbage. They have such broken and unbalanced characters." Also Melee fans: "Wtf! Why'd they ban wobbling? Just don't get grabbed!"

[@nickq8093]

> Toxic camp strat that carries its players and is beaten by camping even harder. it stayed legal because nothing actually changes in terms of matchups when you ban it (except icies obviously being worse). it's "toxic" because the opponent loses all agency once they are grabbed? well aside from when RNG kicks in for handoffs that's true for them as well. it's a "camp strat" because icies play defensively at the top level with it? still true with it banned as they are inherently characters who can lose a LOT off a single neutral loss (via losing nana) and have better defensive tools than offensive ones (which is actually true for most melee characters). it's "beaten by camping even harder"? same still holds after banning it, icies are weak to camping as they are even worse at approaching a platform, get seperated easier off hits while in the air, and have a harder time converting stray hits into grabs in a camping scenario. banning wobbling doesn't change camping from being the best strategy against icies, if anything it buffs those strategies over playing aggressively as good platform positioning can use nana's edge proximity handoff behaviour against them. also if it "carried" it's players why is EVERY top icies player known for having a crazy sopo? you don't get that rep at the top level without being a very strong player. sopo is not a good character and they are known for outplaying their opponents with him.

[@BigHailFan]

@@nickq8093 thank you for proving my above point. the fact of the matter is it's an exploit that essentially makes someone win that stock and there's literally nothing the opponent can do about it once grabbed. you making excuses for it doesn't change the fact it brings the game to a standstill because they know a single grab at 0% can end it. you writing a thousand excuses won't change that.

[@nickq8093]

@@BigHailFan i didn't prove shit about your "point", while there's definitely a bunch of pricks who are shitty elitists they definitely don't use character balance as a justifcation for it rofl. Also you *really* think the same people who downplay peoples accomplishments in other games cos of using "broken" characters are the ones who were *against* the wobbling ban? > it brings the game to a standstill because they know a single grab at 0% can end it. icies are the grapplers of melee and like grapplers in every game they cause the match to have a slower pace, that is simply the nature of grapplers. Also, strong punish game in melee is literally heavily determined by how little agency your opponent has, given that chaingrabs exist and how little counterplay there is against those ofc the grappler of the game robs the opponent of basically all agency when they grab them.

[@burntfish123]

@@nickq8093 > it's a "camp strat" because icies play defensively at the top level with it? Icies at literally every level lol, especially below the top 100 where it's even more punishing because most people aren't literal pro level at beating it. Obviously great players like chu and wobbles don't need it to do well, but for the other 99.99% of the community, a strat that gets people guaranteed kills off of grabs absolutely does carry them. And yes it is toxic making your opponent sit there while you wobble them to 200+% doing a very easy to execute inescapable "combo" you got off of one grab. It doesn't matter if it's tricky to get that grab or harder to win if you lose Nana, because every game devolving into ICs doing nothing but fishing for grabs is shitty to play against and shitty to watch. What does every other character have to do to convert a grab to a kill? Reaction tech chase multiple times (hard to do), land a couple hard reads (mindgame/outplay), throw off stage and edgeguard (reads/reaction, proper execution), etc. At the end of the day it sucks to deal with, sucks to watch, and is overall bad for the health of the game, regardless of competitive balance/viability/etc.

[@jeremyranger4260]

The "disconnect rule" is akin to an athlete getting injured and being unable to compete. It's unfortunate and it's unfair, but it's part of the games risks and you just have to accept giving away the game for something out of your control...

[@cyruscrompton8221]

9:00 I'm amazed how the guy whos entire strat is just doing nothing is complaining about a guy staying in one spot

[@drewzi2044]

If wobbling is legal there should be no air time limit.

[@arin4395]

still a great watch the 2nd time around , awesome work !!

[@EvansMine]

commenting for engagement. very brave of you to reupload the entire video after the attention the original got, mad respect.

[@LookAtThisDudeLmaoo]

Elaborate? What original attention?

[@EvansMine]

@@LookAtThisDudeLmaoo from what I saw it performed quite well in the algorithm. Source: I got it recommended to me and it had a lot of views

[@ivan0797]

What a great video, just subscribed!

[@boredincan]

I ref for Roller Derby. If a skater's equipment is faulty an disrupts play they get penalised. If it is something like a stopper coming off their skate they can be ejected from the game. Not only is poorly maintained safety equipment disruptive to players (e.g. Velcro straps sticking to an opponent), it can be a safety issue, and can damage the floor or other parts of the track. I see this as similar to contoller issues. If you're equipment is not up to standard for tournament play, you should be penalised

[@Chubbuluss]

Mewtwo king genuinely pisses me off. He’s one of the least chill pro players i’ve ever seen.

[@ewwitscullen9132]

I mean with that hairline and botched circumcision, no wonder he has no chill ☠️

[@angrypepe7615]

I get that he's infamous for playing absolutely dirty, but as a person? Nah, he's an extremely chill dude. Like look at him win smash summit 6, that's the exact opposite of a toxic person. The worst I've heard other players say about him is that he's sort of weird, but he's on the spectrum, so give him a break for that lol.

[@cronoz-sensei4259]

Im sorry but I have to ask how much you actually know M2K? Like its alright to be mad at someones toxic behavior but basing your idea of someone on one negatively charged clip of that person feels unjust to me.

[@dariixxiv5371]

Poor westballs, he's the victim of planking and wobbling 😢 He just has that luck, poor guy

[@dominichara9645]

Glad to see the reupload have my sub

[@Inthanameofdover]

Trying to shift the blame to h-box is funny.

[@Spacewinterknight]

Not really he’s a serial staller gives melee a bad name running away for 8 minutes every game

[@xolotltolox7626]

​@@Spacewinterknightangry you can't just hold forward

[@Spacewinterknight]

@@xolotltolox7626 whats to be angry about i dont watch them play melee bc its like watching paint dry

[@paz8723]

Really? This is the ugly side of competitive melee? Not the Yknow Child abuse

[@MF_PORKy]

super monkey ball ost AND gang star beats? Impeccable taste in music

[@TogamiBruh]

its a shame he labeled it as the main menu song instead of Mathematics 😪