The War of the Rohirrim Discussion with YOYSTAN

[@mellonheads]

If you enjoyed this movie, please subscribe as our next video, we are interviewing someone very special from this film! 👀

[@foxtrot6670]

Who!???? 👀👀👀👀

[@MenoftheWest]

Thanks for having me guys! Was an absolute blast!

[@mellonheads]

The MVP speaks 😎🎙️ thanks mellon nín, looking forward to the next one!

[@foxtrot6670]

You guys were awesome! 👏🏼👏🏼

[@Sarah_jm_1993]

So great to see Yoystan teaming up with the Mellons!! Such a fun podcast!!!

[@clff1342]

Notice how Helms family is pretty badass not only Hera. One of the sons taking out an oliphaunts puts him on Legolas levels of badass. Too bad he had Boromir plot armor.

[@mellonheads]

Badass indeed and I love the use of Boromir plot armour which is kind of a paradox as plot armour usually saves and doesn't kill but thanks for your comment!

[@liamwilson7549]

@@mellonheadslol 😂 the Sean Bean certification card 🤣

[@shannonjulie2278]

Surprisingly, I've only just discovered your guys's podcast from this video, but I'm glad I have. :) I share pretty much all the same feelings and thoughts as you all on this movie (except I personally loved the anime aspect, and it's one of my favourite things about the movie and what drew me to it in the first place.) and this was a really nice review to listen to :) especially amidst all of the really negative ones which I think is really sad. It's a great movie and I hope there will be enough support from fans behind it so that will can get more in the future. 🤞

[@mellonheads]

Delighted to have you with us on the Council Shannon! Yes I know that saying the art style is bad is just wrong because it's completely subjective and down to people's personal preferences. If you enjoyed the movie, you're not going to want to miss our next video where we interview someone really special 😋 hopefully the episode drops tomorrow! 👀 Thanks again for the lovely comment

[@paweszymkowiak7072]

Really like your take on the movie guys, with how you presnted not only what you love, but also what you dislike about the movie. I particularly agree with your argument on girlbossines - strange how for some Helm fighting hand to hand with a troll is ok, and his daughter climbing a mountain is not. As for Hera reluctance for marriage, i saw it differently - we see her voice her opinion, but she doesn't do anything to actually oppose whatever decision Helm would make for her. She voices her wishes in a private conversation with Wulf. By the end of the movie she's no longer a daughter of the king and thus has much more freedom. Frealaf shows earlier that he likes her so it seemed natural to me that he would accomodate her wishes after him becoming the next ruler.

[@mellonheads]

Thanks for your comment! I agree that it's double standards when it comes to girl/guy bosses (I hate that term). Also very interesting take on Hera's private converstion and I have to agree with you, I think that maybe it is not her rebelling against customs but just expressing her genuine desires. Great take 👏

[@filipzietek5146]

Hera was wearing the wedding dress becasue she was supposed to look out of place and draw all the atention to herself + provoke Wulf. They even explained this plan in the movie, she was a diversion.

[@mellonheads]

Ya that's what we thought. It did seem a little bizarre that it was a wedding dress. As we said, maybe old shield maiden armour would have been better and more impactful. Thanks for the comment!

[@filipzietek5146]

@@mellonheads I don't think Wulf would react strongly to a shield maiden armor not to mention in armor she could be just mistaken for one of the soldiers.

[@mellonheads]

Hmm I think it would have been more impactful for the audience. Wulf didn't react regardless. Also it was only Hera on the horse on her own so it's not as if we would confuse her with anyone else. They could have given her some really cool interesting armour that stands out

[@axelskovgaardteglskov8443]

@@mellonheads What do you mean by "Wulf didn't react"? He was immediately angered when he saw the dress, and it resulted in him doing exactly what Hèra hoped he would.

[@mellonheads]

I don't remember him commenting on the dress is all. I know he was angered by her actions but the dress was still kind of random to me.

[@ZephyrOptional]

Also, royal women choosing their own mates and subbing their kings orders is common enough in the Legendarium. Aredhel and Luthian for example.

[@mellonheads]

That's awesome to hear too! 👏🏼 And as one commenter suggested that maybe it was still custom but Hera's conversation with Wulf is in fact in private where she expresses her honest desire not to be betrothed to anyone. Thanks for the comment!

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

Not only in the Legendarium, but in the real life as well. There are cases when princesses and queens declined such offers of diplomatic marriages (or even killed their suitors).

[@ZephyrOptional]

@ have you had a chance to watch the new Dune Prophecy series? Those are some powerful women! Mind, body, and spirt.

[@mellonheads]

Yes but few and far between. It's not about the refusal of marriage, we were commenting on how it may have seemed that she was surprised to be betrothed when it has clearly been the custom amongst Rohirrim royals for hundreds of years

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

@@mellonheads As far as I understand, it was customary to ask the opinion of the princess herself, so it was reasonable to Hera to be annoyed that nobody asked her opinion.

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

Good to hear some Irish input fellas. My ancestors shot over to Oz from County Cork in the day. I liked the film too

[@mellonheads]

Ah brilliant! Well if you can understand a cork accent, you can understand any 😉

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

@@mellonheads Wouldn`t go that far. Aussies find it hard with any Irish accent mate

[@milenachershkov9980]

Hera's horse is named Ashere(don't know if that's correct spelling) Watched the movie twice now, loved it

[@mellonheads]

Ah brilliant! I knew it began with an "A" 😜 Thank you so much!

[@justindavis-smith8462]

I enjoy watching the movie and Hera is amazing character.

[@mellonheads]

Delighted you enjoyed!

[@scottwalker6947]

Not seeing a movie based solely based on the fact you don't like a character's name,is just plain silly.

[@mellonheads]

I couldn't agree more! I understand people may have reservations but I encourage people to watch and form their own opinions!

[@jackthehumanofficial]

amazing movie

[@mellonheads]

Glad you liked it Jack!

[@centuryspicysalsa]

Loved the podcast I personally thought the movie was excellent. If you are on the fence go give it a chance. So glad that I did.

[@mellonheads]

Delighted you enjoyed the movie and the podcast even more! 😁

[@andream6477]

As a female Tolkien fan, I was greatly disappointed with Rings of Power and the portrayal of “girl boss” Galadriel. I had low expectations for War of the Rohirrim. I was so pleasantly surprised by it. Hera is female heroism done right. I can’t wait to share it with my daughter when she’s older! And I thought Helm and his sons, along with other side characters, were very compelling. This felt right.

[@Schellnino1994]

Hoe did you all feel about the rotoscoping and the references to Ralph Bakshi? Big Bakshi fan here so i loved it! Also, what did you think of the Watch in the Water being on the East side of Moria? I was okay with it! The Eagles? In my opinion the best part of the film!

[@mellonheads]

Wow I guess I missed the rotoscoping and Bakshi references! Where were they in the film? I didn't mind the watcher being there too much although I didn't love the design of him. Yes not only were the eagles cool, but they sounded amazing! I've attached our link to the Ralph Bakshi review if you want to check it out! It may not have been our favourite movie ever but we had such fun watching and talking about it 😁 kzbin.info/www/bejne/gmnOZKd8bbV8rpo

[@jomamasophat8973]

you guys feel about this movie like how I feel about this movie. Loved it. So good to be back in Middle Earth again.

[@mellonheads]

Aww absolutely! Probably the best thing about this! It all helps that the music, sound design and story were top notch!

[@pixel_venus]

damn, I'm hearing almost every single thing i discussed with my husband on the way back from watching the movie, and i said almost the same thing as you guys every time! i agree with everything!

[@foxtrot6670]

I love Yoystan! Can't wait to get stuck into this! 😍😍

[@mellonheads]

He is the OG and MVP! You'll love some of his insights in this!

[@Sarah_jm_1993]

Same!! This was such a fun watch!

[@samuel-j3i]

Yes loved this too! I actually love when I see my favourite content creators collab! I've been following the mellon heads for at least a year now and Men of the west for as long as I remember watching his videos and never thought I'd see them all together

[@TealWolf26]

Mixed feelings for me. The writing and the dialogue seemed the weakest parts to me. Particularly I didn't understand Wulf's decisions most of the team. Is he trying to kill her? Marry her? It felt like he was flipflopping and ignoring absolutely everyone's advice being a complete contrarian to his advisors. Surrender was offered to him on a silver platter multiple times but it was never good enough. He had to have it the way he wanted it or not at all. I can tell that he is meant to have poor moral character but unfortunately he felt weak as a story character as well. I honestly can't tell in several points if he's stupid and petty beyond reason or if the writing was clunky and didn't know how to progress things along in a sensible fashion. It felt like the plot was driving Wulf's decisions more than Wulf's decisions drove the plot. There was just no internal consistency with him for me. Granted I only got the opportunity to see it once but that impression stuck out for me. They also could have feathered Wulf and his General after they executed Hama. Just sayin. Pretty easily. Clearly he wasn't interested in diplomacy or surrender. At all. The bowmen were right there. The Watcher eating the Mumakil was pure fan service. I'm pretty sure they're the same size or there isn't enough disparity for the Watcher to risk trying to eat the Mumak. If you have to have a Watcher callback just have it eat some dudes. What they did was silly. I know Corsairs and Southrons did attack but Mumakil at all seems like a stretch. I would have preferred ONE and have it be a big deal. Maybe the first that the Rohirrim have faced in battle? I can't recall a canon clash between them before War of the Ring. Plausible but logistically it seems like a big ask. Hera was fine. Needs more work but she's fine. She felt adequately heroic more than unearned girl bossing. The leap from Orthanc seemed a bit too far and the anime flip during the last battle felt a bit much. Also the Princess Mononoke dress. Otherwise pretty happy with her inclusion. A lot of things seem cool in concept but just needed more time to breathe and be earned and fleshed out. I wish there had been more bonding time, maybe fighting alongside Hera's brothers to really sell them and make their deaths hit harder. I was kind of confused when they just FedEx airmailed the armor instead of Hera flying to meet with her cousin. I think the story would have been better served for a meeting between them but this was fine, I guess. Overall I liked War of the Rohirrim but it has significant flaws imo. Unfortunately I think I have to rank it lower than the Hobbit trilogy. Not but too much but that's where it sits in the hierarchy for me. Needs improvement but at least it isn't Rings of Power.

[@mellonheads]

Yes Wulf was contradicting every bit of advice offered to him from Targg but I believe that yes Wulf wanted to marry Hera originally and begrudgingly offered a last chance when capturing her at Isengard which she was about to accept with terms and this insulted Wulf. She then wore a wedding dress as an insult in the showdown. I do think Wulf was "out of range" from the bowmen in this shot that you're speaking of. I do appreciate your thoughts but this was good for me as I feel like Wulf is supposed to be an irrational and vengeful character and this is why he constantly goes against the generals advice which ultimately leads to both their downfalls. Like we mention in this chat, the mumak is a confirmed (by Weta) sub-species of the Mumakil that we see in return of the king and much smaller in size but yes agreed that it was fan-service filler that I didn't care for much really. I agree that one would have been perhaps more impactful alright. I don't know where I rank it right now. I feel lore-wise and story-wise, it works much better than (at least the last) Hobbit in a narrative way but I just prefer live-action that much more to probably agree with you in terms of rewatch value. I still think as a first anime in Peter Jackson's IP, this was a brilliant movie! Thank you so much for the comment!

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

I think four (or how many they had? it seems to me that they had four) mumakil was about the right number, but I agree that they should have made them a much bigger deal, showing Wulf arranging their arrival, their transportation across seas and mountains (maybe with some losses along the way) and the reaction of Dunlendings ("now we can beat those northern horsemen!") and Rohirrim (pure terror, since they are facing legendary creatures). Also, there should be other warriors from Harad and Umbar in Wulf's army, not just mumakil. If they wanted to have a fight between a mumak and another creature, I think an ent would be better. Ents live in Fangorn, not far-away from Isengard where Wulf gathered his forces, so logistically it would make perfect sense. Rohhirrim had some tales about ents, so for Hera to lure a mumak into the Entwoods makes perfect sense. In a verse about Oliphaunt is said "trees crack as I pass", and I doubt an ent would like that. And I think a fight between a mumak and an ent would be much cooler than what we've seen in the movie. And I completely agree that for Hera to fly on the Eagle to Dunharrow herself and thus participate in Frealaf's attack on Edoras would make much more sense both lore-wise and story-wise. I disagree that this movie is worse than PJ "Hobbit", though. I think it is better in many ways. The PJ depiction of the Dwarves was completely inaccurate and terrible, IMHO, and the whole Azog story-line didn't make any sense at all.

[@neilbakshi7365]

Yoystan makes a good point that the Silmarillion would be well served as anime, and would suffer in live action. After all, most "live action" movies have tons of CG anyway. Anime is better in a lot of ways because it's pure imagination, and so it's easier to accept the other qualities of an imaginary world.

[@rachbakes3579]

Super review guys, such an enjoyable episode as always 🎉🤍

[@mellonheads]

Thank you Rachel, glad you had fun and hope you enjoyed the movie too! 😁

[@ZephyrOptional]

The lag on the animation is because it’s mostly hand drawn. If you watched 90s anime like Robotec, Akira, Fist of the North Star and the like, you’d feel right at home with the animation. I’d love to see The Silmarillion in animation of any style. I recommend checking out Tomm Moore’s “Celtic” animation style. ❤️ “Helm was made for Anime” my main critique of WotR is that I wanted more!

[@MrGlenbw]

At least the animation in this movie has been consistent and excellent compared to recent animes such as (cough cough) Uzumaki and Blue Lock S2.

[@patriciak8936]

Looks like a traditional cel animation rotoscope hybrid , which maybe a homage to the LOTR movie of 1978 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings_%281978_film%29. I loved it, it gave an other worldliness and out of time feel to the story.

[@ZephyrOptional]

@ did you see The Blue Eyed Samurai? Realistic animation doesn’t automatically make it good.

[@ZephyrOptional]

@ yes! I loved the rotoscoping parts! Very respectful to Bakshi

[@mellonheads]

Wow a glowing critique to have and as two Irishmen, we will certainly check out this Celtic style animation! Thanks

[@Sarah_jm_1993]

I am so glad to hear this review. I initially enjoyed the movie but then I watched some other kind of negative reviews online and they made me feel like maybe I was wrong to think it was good. It showed me how easily we can get caught up in other reviewers opinions. This review has set me back on the right track feeling the same as I did having just seen it. Wonderful adaptation and as Yoystan said, Hera is as much of a girl boss as Helm is a guy boss! Love it!!

[@foxtrot6670]

Yea reviewers can be so polarized and that's something I've noticed about Mellon Heads. They don't take sides for the sake of it. They seem to be much more level headed on these things

[@MrGlenbw]

I hardly care much about recent negative reviews (they are mostly subjective, that's the keyword) because in a few years time, they'll often be forgotten and this movie will probably be revered for WHAT IT IS; many movies and TV shows are now fondly remembered and become cult classics did get a lot of bad press way back in their days.

[@Hannah-hq8ne]

Tbh, there are so many negative reviewers out there who I’d ignore. If people are calling the movie a flop before it’s even come out, they’re never going to change their mind if the movie is alright. I don’t think this film is the best I’ve ever seen, but it’s certainly not bad enough to warrant some of the very negative reviews it’s got, but these people decided they hated it as soon as it was announced and spent their time bashing it every opportunity. Don’t let reviewers affect your opinion on any film, good or bad 😊

[@Sarah_jm_1993]

@@Hannah-hq8ne of course I agree with you. But it's easier said than done to just not let a reviewers opinion affect you. I'm speaking of my own experience in this situation where I didn't think I was affected by external opinions but I found myself becoming more cynical after having watched a negative review (thinking this was my own view) and I am only realising now just how much it can affect you on a subliminal level. So I implore others to be careful of the reviewers you follow. I used to enjoy watching Nerdrotic and The Drinker but I always felt worse about the films after I watched their reviews, even if I agreed with most of their points! For me, I'm just going to avoid those channels in future and I know I'll feel happier!

[@Hannah-hq8ne]

@@Sarah_jm_1993 Oh absolutely, external factors do always affect your opinions, I get that, especially before a movie comes out so I often avoid videos like ‘what I thought’ before the movies out. I used to enjoy Nerdotic and Drinker too, but they’ve discovered they get more engagement by just pure rage and hatred. Every other videos of theirs is pure hatred so I’ve avoided for years now. They’re incapable of forming an objective opinion and make their minds up the second the lead isn’t a man. Definitely avoid them. Channels like this far more objective with both praise and criticism imo

[@timscarberry2778]

I thought the movie was ok, everything else about the movie was great in my opinion but falls short where it matters the most, the story. My biggest complaint is that it is just another victim of to many feminist being involved in the writing room. There are hints of feminism throughout the first 2 thirds of the movie in tolerable amounts, and up to that point the story was doing pretty good. Of course there is a but and thats when Helm is removed from the story, the feminism comes out full swing. Cheesie out of place lines, and girl bosses dominating the bad guys. If you think that Eowyn beat the witch king because she was a girl you will probably love this movie.

[@mellonheads]

Thanks for your views Tim. This film is certainly not gonna be for everyone and is not a masterpiece but definitely had its enjoyable parts and we are trying to look at it from a "glass half full" perspective!

[@DestructoDisk]

They should make a movie about Helm Hammerhand someday.

[@ivacho9428]

They told that story in the recent movie...

[@mellonheads]

Good one haha

[@CriticalNuance]

I liked the anime take on the story but this is a small story unconnected to the main plots of Tolkien. I hope to get adaptations of Silmarillion tales someday, and it obviously would have to be in multiple parts, but I would be massively disappointed if it was only done in animation. I want to see these stories brought to reality. I think that is part of the art of live action film for fantasy tales. Show me how these concepts can approach reality on screen. It is not impossible. There are tons of live action mythology and superhero movies that depict non-real phenomena happening on screen. I want that for the Silmarillion.

[@mellonheads]

Yes deep down, I would love the Silmarillion adapted in live action but it would need to be at the quality of Peter Jackson's holy trinity for that to happen. Unfortunately with the rights all being tied up, this would be an issue for the foreseeable future so there is definitely nothing in the pipeline for this type of adaptation anytime soon.

[@liamwilson7549]

@@mellonheadspersonally I think an animated silmarillion would be a better choice for its first adaptation. Even Peter Jackson’s movies would not be what they are without the influence of the animated movies made back in the 70s and 80s. A lot of people hate animation for some reason, but there is an even greater audience out there divided and leaderless waiting for the crown jewel of stories to arise.

[@MrGlenbw]

"Why was Hera averse to marriage and so rebellious?" Because Disney... THAT'S WHY. Either way, great insights and valuable info for those who are not well-fluent in Tolkien stuff like myself!

[@mellonheads]

Delighted that you actually received some valuable information! Haha yes the Disney brain-rot can delude some people but I love how a lot of this movie is steeped in reality 😁

[@ZephyrOptional]

@@MrGlenbw there are many charters in Tolkien’s Legendarium that refuse marriage. What makes you think that’s a Disney thing? Because it’s a girl? If you’re fluent in Tolkien, why don’t you name a few? My daughters are strong, rebellious, and not interested in marriage until they start their careers if ever, and we’re not big Disney fans.

[@samuel-j3i]

Absolutely loving the energy from this podcast guys! I actually feel so much more positive about the movie and I've already seen it and kind of want to go out and watch it again! Your tidbits and Yoystans knowledge of the lore are genuinely awesome 😝 thank you so much for another great episode!

[@mellonheads]

Thanks man! And yes, please do go and watch it a second time. You won't be disappointed as there is so many great things for LOTR fans in there 😁

[@lbzkBMF]

Hera is not a boss, everyone's a boss in this film! There's barely any character development on any of the main protagonists and they all feel liniar, so Hera is fine. And yes, she was the right choice for the main protagonist...she checks the DIE box, doesn't have any lore attached to her so she can be anything and everything in as many films as Warner Bros feel like. Also, this film is barely an anime, it's more like a poor man's attempt at animating a live action film in anime style. For example, Helm is depicted as a human being and anime character almost at the same time. He is anime strong and kills with one punch a very big man, but human naive to think that that's impossible...make it make sense! The one punch might be lore accurate, but poorly depicted in the film...it's almost as if the punch gave Freca a heart attack, or he chocked on some food rest he had in his mouth, but not as a direct result of meeting Helm's strength. Not even Helm is confident that he is that strong... WOTR might be better than ROP, but will never be as good as LOTR, or even TH. Future looks grim for Middle-Earth :(

[@mellonheads]

There's a lot more character development of Helm in this movie than in the book, and that should be easy given how short the story is in the appendices. But I think the introduction of Hera actually gives Helm a bigger character arc. I'm not saying it's the greatest story ever, just that characters do have development. But I get your point all the same and it's certainly not a masterpiece or anywhere near the LotR. Thanks for your views!

[@DrewbattleTheGreat]

So why are these guys so mad if the movie is actually good

[@mellonheads]

Which guys are you referring to?

[@DrewbattleTheGreat]

@ nerdrotic criticism drinker and etc rage baiters

[@Sarah_jm_1993]

@@DrewbattleTheGreat are you asking why "rage baiters" as you have called them, are mad? 😂 I don't really get the reason for the rhetorical question but it's funny

[@mellonheads]

Ah yes! Well I guess they know their audience and what they are expected to say. On our channel, we know we have listeners that both love and hate some of the things that we review but we don't like to buy into what is expected of us to say (shills/haters) no matter what some of the comments may say 😂 we prefer to take every project at face value! Thanks for your comment

[@DrewbattleTheGreat]

@@Sarah_jm_1993 sometimes it’s actually valid tho

[@Peak_Aussieman]

Shill nah. I got you now boi, you paid shill boi!

[@Hannah-hq8ne]

Yes because everyone who enjoys something you don’t is a ‘shill’

[@mellonheads]

Why shill? We talk about what's good and what's bad

[@ZephyrOptional]

@@Hannah-hq8ne you would think Tolkien “fans” would have better vocabulary to criticize something besides “shill” and “woke”. A shill knowingly fake-acts enthusiasm to trick someone into believing something for their personal gain. Our hosts are not faking enthusiasm any more than they care what peak-aussie thinks and are therefore by definition, not shills, but fans. Fan are enthusiastic on their own and don’t care what people think about it.

[@Peak_Aussieman]

@@mellonheads Nay, you nerds are brought and paid for bruhs. Tolkien would be ashamed at what his novels have been devolved into with this gross bilge.

[@Sarah_jm_1993]

@Peak_Aussieman this Aussie's spelling tells me he's never finished any book, nevermind a Tolkien one lol

[@tomoflathead]

Very dissapointed with the film....when you touch tolkien the bar has to be so much higher.

[@mellonheads]

Sorry to hear that you didn't enjoy it. Did you at least enjoy the lore?

[@Paul-ig5qh]

Looks like the movie is a bit of a flop. They should have stuck to the story. Really strange decision.

[@mellonheads]

Do you mean the decision of Hera being the protagonist? Controversial alright but check out the video to see why we feel it was in actual fact the correct decision to make!

[@sit-insforsithis1568]

The story was 3 paragraphs xD

[@Sarah_jm_1993]

They told the entire story, but obviously had to flesh it out since it's only 2 pages. Not sure what you're referring to in the comment if you'd like to elaborate? Yeah, it could very well be a flop due to the poor marketing and the anime choice, pity.

[@Paul-ig5qh]

@mellonheads all for her being in the film. I don't know why they had her kill wulf. In my opinion, it would have been better to leave the story as it is. It's just my opinion.

[@Paul-ig5qh]

@sit-insforsithis1568 thanks for the information.

[@paulgalligan1916]

In the books the sister was unnamed so i presume thats why they just made up shit around that.. I think the use of Anime for me was a really bad choice of animation theres heaps of other options.. Missed opportunity in my book..

[@mellonheads]

Yes they added to the already established lore just like every adaptation! I think they did well but it's just subjective I guess 😁