The Welsh -- AoE2 Civ Theorycraft

[@Vaughnsb2]

The Bretons would be another interesting civ.

[@jimmyjames5953]

It's a dream come true seeing the Celts get split up in this series. You always challenge my thinking about civilizations and the game itself, which is really awesome to see. One idea for the town center bonus is that instead of slowing down the age-up time, you slow down the research time of technologies at the town center while it is researching one of the ages. That way the civ doesn't get massacred by early rushes on open maps and also doesn't get such an absurd villager lead that it outpaces everyone else on closed maps. In fact, because you could research loom while on your way up to the next age, you would probably be able to go for a faster up-time but get loom and maybe 1-2 vills to boost your eco. Also, I really like that the hobelar gets an attack bonus from attacking someone from behind. I dunno if the game records anything like that, and lord knows that with moonwalking units during the current state of pathing that we could definitely see some accidental bonus damage. But still, that's a great way to capture the feel of the unit.

[@robbylava]

HEY! Thank you so much for saying so Jimmy! Genuinely means a lot coming from you. Your solution to the early Rush problem is quite creative! I could see doing something like that if in testing it ended up being a drastic problem, but another commenter also mentioned maybe letting them make spearmen in Dark Age as a way to stave off early aggression, which I also really like as a solution. Not sure which will work best yet though! Thanks so much for taking the time to watch and share your thoughts my friend.

[@erikdw8379]

WE WILL NAUGHT LET THESE ENGLASH INVADAS BUILD A CASOL ON WELSH SOIL!!! CHARGE!!!!!!! Also, first.

[@kevinkibble8342]

A Welsh civ? There's bloody lovely, boyo!

[@Giagrus]

Nice job on Civ icon. Probably my favorite one I've seen so far.

[@robbylava]

Hey! Really appreciate it man!

[@thomasfplm]

24:02 I once thought of a similar idea for a bonus to the castle. The castle would be capable of training two units at the same time, as long as they would be different kinds of units (like a UU and a treb).

[@Sumabus]

As a Welsh language tutor, your pronunciation of Welsh names and places was very good. I commend you.

[@robbylava]

Well thank you very much! I'm hoping that I'll do an even better job when we go back to this region in the future video, I've been practicing hehehe

[@WillyMacShow]

You're game balance choices are always really unique. Every time I see one at first I think, "wow that's OP as hell." But then I think about it, and there's usually some draw back that makes me unsure. For the TC's and click up time: You'd get a massive eco lead for sure, probably 3ish vils just from clicking up. But being 66% slower has some massive draw backs and leaves you massively vulnerable. They probably need to have the faster firing archers that can dodge, otherwise they'd get overwhelmed in that age up period. Even on maps like arena I am not sure if it would be more of a benefit or a draw back. Probably heavily depends on timings and micro, which makes sense. It seems to be what you're going for and is the most fun part of this civ your designing. You always do such a great job thinking these things out. Always want to play these civs. (sorry for commenting twice, I often watch these in two sittings)

[@robbylava]

Hey man, no need to apologize at all! It honestly means a lot to hear you say so -- for me that's the absolute best sweet spot in design, when the power level of something isn't obvious despite how it may seem. So thank you so much for taking the time to watch it through and share your comments. I really love hearing from you man! And I hope that the builds going forward continue to entertain and hit that sweet spot.

[@thomasfplm]

16:06 I don't know if it would be possible to make in AoE2, but I just thought of an idea for a UU. Not for a specific civ, probably there are many civs where it would fit. An archer or infantry that would only appear for the enemy one or two tiles into the enemy's line of sight. Basically it would be a kind of stealth, but not with an invisibility cloak, but like a camouflage hard to see from afar. The opponent wouldn't need a specific unit or building to detect it, but units and buildings that have big LoS would be better as they are to detect everything else.

[@robbylava]

I ended up using a very similar idea to this in a future build! Stealth mechanics are, in my opinion at least, extremely fun, and definitely something that I think could fit within the confines of AOE2.

[@thomasfplm]

30:06 I like the bonuses in general, but I think the accuracy reducing one would be hard to implement. For the castle UU, I think they would be even more annoying to implement, specially having to "remember" the "bodyguards" they did or didn't loose when they go into or out of LoS.

[@robbylava]

Yeah, the UU here would be a pretty substantial logistical issue. I'm honestly not sure how I would fix it, short of a major overhaul, but I do rather like the idea. Maybe I'll figure out a way to make it happen someday.

[@mrp4242]

Subbed. Welsh ancestry myself. Great video. Keep up the good work.

[@robbylava]

Thanks so much for saying so my friend. Hope you enjoy what comes next!

[@WillyMacShow]

love these videos

[@robbylava]

Man, thank you so much for saying so Willy! It honestly means a ton. Are there any particular civilizations you'd really like to see me cover on the channel?

[@WillyMacShow]

@@robbylava hmmmm can't say I am super educated on this time period. I really like learning about it from your channel. I think if a civ had a unique unit that could embark and land on its own would be really cool. But I'm not sure which in real civ would fit that description. Maybe some raidy type civ. (lol I can only think of the vikings which already exist haha)

[@WillyMacShow]

If I remember correctly from reading the Civ V description of the Songhai, maybe them?? Only if they can fit the time period of course. I think they had some crazy river wars.

[@robbylava]

Excellent suggestion Willy! I'll put it on my list. And it's so funny that you mentioned a raiding unit that can embark by itself, I actually ended up doing a really similar thing for the Dutch in my last recraft stream! Great minds think alike, eh?

[@diegoramirez7901]

This Megadeth quote quite fits the Welsh: "Sneak attacks, repel down the rocks. Behind the lines. Some people risk to employ me. Some people live to destroy me. Either way they die, they die." Great video Rob

[@robbylava]

A very fitting quote. I feel like I need to bow my head for grace before dinner. Thank you so much for saying so Diego. Really hope you enjoyed it!

[@afz902k]

Great seeing this after having learned Welsh on Duolingo for a couple weeks, haha! At least I can contribute one thing, Mawr means "big" so I guess Rhodri Mawr was also pretty much as "Great" as Llywelyn, if we're to go only by name.

[@afz902k]

Dw y'n hoffi crefft dheori yma

[@robbylava]

What a great coincidence! So cool that you're actually taking the plunge to try to learn the language, I am much too intimidated

[@FlymanMS]

I love both cool civs ideas and weird intro, never stop making those!

[@robbylava]

Heheheh really glad to hear my friend! Thank you so much for saying so

[@nefftron1]

Okay, hear me out: Prince Madoc campaign, based on the fantastical idea that a Welsh prince sailed to America before Columbus. Would be a way to have another campaign with the American civs.

[@robbylava]

... that was a thing? HOW on earth have I not heard about this before?! What time period was this said to take place in? You may well have hit a gold mine there, Nefftron.

[@RowanDrake47]

@@robbylava Ooh, even if that doesn't work for Age of Kings (that seems unlikely) I could see that as a concept linking the Celts and various American civs into an Age of Mythology campaign. Going to have to take a look at this later Robby, but really excited about this civ! It's one I was already daydreaming about when I did my English build, as my comments on the Longbowman said. :)

[@robbylava]

Oh that's such an excellent idea Rowan, what a great way of linking those two cultures together! I was thinking about your design a lot as I was doing this Welsh build -- I've been planning a regional longbowman unit for a while, but since you put out your design first I was really strongly considering credit in you for the idea. In fact, would you like me to do so? I apologize for not doing it in this video, but I'd be happy to put it in the recraft and future longbow videos if you'd like! Let it never be said that Rowan Drake was not the queen of the longbow.

[@nefftron1]

@@robbylava It's a real legend! Supposedly it would have happened around the 1170s, though the legend itself was most popular in Elizabethan times. It grew out of now-lost Welsh legends about some kind of sea voyage to the west (which might be about Ireland, Iceland, Vinland, or just a fanciful story). Obviously, it would go excellently with adding Celts/Aztecs to Age of Mythology, but I've also had the thought that, even as pure fantasy, it could be one way to do a campaign if the devs put Mississippians into the game. Have Madoc fight his way across North America and Mexico before either sailing home or simply being lost into legend.

[@RowanDrake47]

@@robbylava That's... extremely kind of you, chap, especially considering it's an idea you'd already had. I wouldn't want to take away credit from you, but if it were more of a case of 'great minds think alike' that would actually be really awesome of you. Thanks, chap!

[@premiumfruits3528]

When the cliffs start speaking Welsh.

[@robbylava]

If I could give an award for the best comment on a given video you would win this one hands down

[@dinofacedindividual9462]

Intro Robby trying his hand at being the villain of an Indie Horror

[@robbylava]

HA! Wouldn't be the first time, funnily enough!

[@dinofacedindividual9462]

@@robbylava A true renaissance Robbie

[@renrewplayz3156]

Oh baby this looks spicy

[@Jallorn]

So, if you can manage to maintain constant villager production and aging up, you will be 5 villagers ahead of baseline by the time your opponents reach Feudal. Course, it's another minute and a bit before you can start building Feudal age buildings and eco upgrades, and Castle age will take almost 2 minutes longer to research- though I haven't done the math on whether a fast castle is still viable based solely on raw eco power. Uchelwyr retinue: Do they have persistent hp? If the Uchelwyr uses the retinue as a distraction to escape, and then the retinue despawns before being killed, would they be spawned at full hp next time they spawn, or do they keep the damage taken? I don't know that I would call what the Welsh can do in Feudal a rush. Certainly, with that big villager lead they can drop two or three archery ranges once they get up there, and start pumping out Elm Bowmen, but between the age up delay and the increased training time on the bowmen, it's still tricky to beat an opponent to mass. Yeah, they're definitely one of those civs that only has one viable strategy: Archers, supported by, well, probably cavalry. There's some flexibility of tactics in terms of the balance of archers to cavalry, where and how you raid, and you might see some Castle age Gallowglass, but the strategy is definitely predictable. At the same time, that early eco boost is really big, and their archers are really strong, and they might just outproduce the counterplays. They're also amazing in team games, especially with other Celts who can field better and mightier Gallowglass. I do think their age up change is good though, even with as much potential for an eco win as it has, because it changes dynamics and makes for potential shakeups to the meta. I could see a small Drush vs the Welsh doing good work, and even strategically delaying Feudal Age to get a couple more villagers and still beating the Welsh up. That sparks interesting choices. I also think the Welsh probably should have the most powerful archers in the game, or at the very least be in the top three. Now, I don't know that they need to be the strongest archer civ, but rather, they should be extremely population efficient. If, as you say, the Welsh were also famed for their spears, then if there is some rejiggering to happen to the civ, then I'd say the spear line should be improved a bit. Maybe extend the speed bonus?

[@robbylava]

What an incredible review Jallorn. Such thoughtful comments, I seriously appreciate it man. I pretty much agree with everything you're saying here! As I mentioned in discord I definitely like your idea for extending the speed bonus to spearman, and if you could think of any other clever ways to promote that unit as well I'd be very much up for it! Also a great point about Uchelwyr spawns -- the HP IS supposed to be consistent, so I'll make sure to make a note of that for the next week craft. Thanks as always for taking the time to watch and leave such brilliant feedback my friend. I really hope you enjoyed the build!

[@Hardrada_1066]

Thanks for your work! I wonder if the "wyr" in "Uchelwyr" is cognate to the latin "vir" = man

[@robbylava]

Oooo what an interesting point! Never even thought of that -- both would of course have Indo-European roots, so maybe there's something to be found there

[@sanethoughtspreader]

Uchel means above or upper and wyr I presume is men/people

[@Darkcamera45]

I don’t know civ seems super underpowered and I feel like that’s a theme with a lot of your civ designs but very unique and well crafted which is something that can be said of all your designs

[@robbylava]

Hey, thank you so much man! I really appreciate you saying so. I personally try to shoot for underpowered when I am designing, since buffing something is always better received (and easier to do) than nerfing something in a way that doesn't strip it of its identity. If you have any suggestions on how to buff the civilization I'd love to hear! Though I will say that I think it's going to be quite deceptively powerful, particularly in the Eco department. Hopefully someone throws together a testing scenario at some point so we can see how it actually feels in practice!

[@Phil-xs5xq]

What seems underpowered? Those agile archers are very scary and looks like would be hard to counter without going full skirms (huge food investment). I do believe the TC bonus will lead to very weird timmings, +2 minutes to reach feudal age to even build the archery range makes it very hard to use those powerful archers, but also maaaybe will allow them to idle tc to get a better timing? idk. A very early aggression like those 18 pop mongol scouts would really destroy them, so they will need something to defend themselves without being broken. Maybe training pikes and skirms on dark age on the barracks could work, enemy skirms can still hurt your army, and gives an early weakness to MMA. Besides the TC bonus the other stuff looks ok

[@Darkcamera45]

@@Phil-xs5xq having only archers that r hood isn’t very good on 1v1 because enemies can easily counter you with more than just skirms and the civ is super one dimesniosnal and seems pretty unplayable in late game but very intresting

[@robbylava]

Honestly feel your spearman available in Dark Age idea is kind of ingenious. Definitely helps protect against scout all-ins, which I agree will be one of this civilization's biggest weaknesses! And you're definitely right that the late game is going to be pretty linear Darkklestry -- I'm hoping that like the Mayans their powerful archers will have at least a little bit of interesting support in the form of fast support units, there of course their cavalry are nearly as tanky as Mayan eagles are.

[@Phil-xs5xq]

@@Darkcamera45 i think they have options, not every civ has a strong late game and is ok that way. Also, you cant counter them with siege since they are very fast and they have bonus damage against cav

[@YossarianVanDriver]

It's interesting to see how these arcs of history look from different perspectives. From a strategy-game perspective, seeing these almost-hegemonies over all of Wales fall apart can seem frustrating; "ahh, you guys were almost a unified nation!" But from the perspective of, say, the south Welsh of Dyfed, it's more like a relieved "oh thank god, those Gwynedd northerners aren't stomping all over us anymore. If anyone's going to rule all of Wales, it's gonna be us!" (Especially in the earlier medieval era when there were stronger regional cultural differences--such as Dyfed being more Irish-influenced, the west Welsh in general using more Roman-style administration, and the early rivalry between Pengwern and Powys as having their origins in an old Roman city and the countryside hinterlands formerly subject to it that broke away--and when England was also divided into small kingdoms and less of an existential threat.)

[@robbylava]

What I just said in my reply to your Irish comment also applies in full here -- you have really excellent input, and I really appreciate reading your thoughts. This in particular is a fantastic example of how my own personal limitations and biases as an outside observer of history can get in the way of my ability to be objective! What you are saying makes total sense and, if anything, is a much more interesting narrative than the one I put together, but it never even crossed my mind to think about it that way. Beautifully said, and thanks again for sharing.

[@YossarianVanDriver]

@@robbylava I'm glad you think so! I did hope to phrase it in a way that carried across that your angle here is totally understandable from a strategy-game perspective especially. From a logical, strategic point of view, it was indeed a huge disadvantage that a bunch of small disunited states were being invaded by a large united one. But I always think our understanding of history can be furthered by really trying to get in the heads of pre-modern people, and realising when their value judgements might differ from ours. Heck, you could apply this to the idea of them "lagging behind" the rest of Europe in terms of social structures and organisation--some of those innovations /were/ undoubtedly more efficient, but others may have just been viewed as 'modern' because they were what the winners of the day, the big European kingdoms, happened to be doing; and there were probably plenty of Welsh people who considered them an imposition. Bit of a ramble, apologies--but medieval Wales (especially its literature/poetry) is a particular passion of mine. Actually, as a subject of said poetry, I feel like my personal ideal campaign would be about Urien Rheged and Taliesin in the 6th century. Outside the geographic "Wales", but as Brythonic figures praised in later Welsh tradition it feels like it'd be the most appropriate civ to use, and there's a lot of interesting legend vs history stuff there. Ooh, or a little later, Cadafael of Gwynedd (7th c.), who allegedly came from common origin to seize the throne, and allied with the pagan Penda of Mercia to unite against the Rome-backed Northumbria. Man, an outline for this is suddenly springing to mind, but it feels like I'm already stretching the limits of a youtube comment, lmao

[@robbylava]

@YossarianVanDriver well said. It is my curse as an amateur historian, especially one trying to adapt things into game logic, that I must constantly simplify and lose out on the beautiful nuances that you so succinctly put to words. I would absolutely LOVE to talk about Welsh folklore and mythology -- Taliesin in particular is actually a favorite character of mine -- but I think I'm going to be saving that for now so that maybe I can do something pertaining to age of mythology with it someday (might not be soon, but definitely something I want to try). That Cadafael fellow actually sounds extremely cool though. I don't think I've ever heard of him before! Do you know how many other possible civilizations, even ones that aren't yet in the game, might feature in a campaign about him? (We regularly push KZbin's comment length limits on this channel lol, If you want to go into more depth you're always welcome to join our discord server!)

[@PhoenixAlaris93]

I'm guessing the last one will be the Irish, though it does make me curious about something... what about the Mannish? (Isle of Man) Last I checked, there was a small kingdom there that might be worth checking out sometime.

[@robbylava]

That's a really fascinating suggestion Phoenix. Do you know how big the kingdom became? I knew that they had an autonomous civilization there but I always assumed it was absolutely tiny, far smaller than would be feasible for an AOE2 civilization.

[@PhoenixAlaris93]

@@robbylava kzbin.info/www/bejne/f3fLn6ZvgrSIqpo This enough justification for you? You would think there wouldn't be a lot to talk about, but looks can be deceiving. If this ended up being the fourth gaelic civ, it'd probably be the most naval focused.

[@mojungle3054]

You started trying to make the Welsh and ended up with 40K White Scars

[@lorddervish212quinterosara6]

I think the Uchelwyr ability should be activated at will by the player and the companion units "recharge" after being killed

[@robbylava]

I considered something similar to that as well! What I like about the attacking mechanic is twofold: one, well I personally don't mind activated abilities in age of empires, a lot of other people have said they don't like them so I try to make abilities automatic where possible. Two, it makes the Teulu technology have extra implications for this unit, as it allows this powerful ability to activate from a range and therefore makes it less likely that your Uchelwyr will die before they can get it off. Does that seem like coherent logic to you?

[@erikdw8379]

You know, the Aging up not occupying the TC queue sound very similar to the Danes' TC being able to train Vills and research techs at the same time, including Aging up, except worse since it only applies to Age up and it's 66% slower, and I guess they can research other techs while Aging up, which is kind of unnecessary as when you're Aging up you've likely already researched the techs you'd want.

[@robbylava]

GOOD POINT. I completely forgot to mention that part of my plan for this build was making the Dane bonus no longer apply to aging up since a couple of commenters and viewers have told me they find it to be ultra mega broken on top of everything else that bonus gives you. That will be something I go into in the next recraft! So you can look at this bonus as kind of a way to make that one less disgusting than it was Good catch Erik!

[@thomasfplm]

32:24 If they were famous for good Spearmen, I think it would be better for them to keep the armour and loose the attack upgrades. Armour tend to be more important to infantry and the spear line has a lot of bonus damage against the units it is most used against. I imagine you took the armour because you said they were lightly armored. And you also said they were bad with cavalry, and being an archer civ doesn't mean infantry needs to be bad, so it might be good for them to have an ok infantry, so they are not too one dimensional.

[@Crossil]

The problem with the York scenario is that there's only space for seven enemy factions. A simple solution would be merging the Irish factions into one, which I think would give Irish a bit too much clay. A more complex solution would be downgrading the size of the map so that one of the Irish kingdoms is off the map. But aside from this, the straightforwardness of the British Isles is beginning to show. Irish are gonna be even more limited in the campaign appearances department.

[@robbylava]

Yeah, you certainly have a point there. I'm not really sure how I would address that particular problem, though I do think that bundling Scotland and Wales together is probably not the way to do it!

[@thomasfplm]

39:08 The courent Britons also have extremely strong archers and they are not unbeatable.

[@RheaMainz]

Those tabled archer ideas sound mandatory, otherwise the hypothesized Welsh would be far too easily overrun by Elephant, eagle warrior civilisations as well as that ghulam civ & the Goths. Having 8 hard counter civs, and possibly more, against your own would be extremely suboptimal!

[@RocketHarry865]

The current Britons in game are currently a mix of Welsh, Bretons and Post-Norman England. I want you to do a take on Anglo-Saxons so we can have a representation of Pre-Norman England.

[@robbylava]

Absolutely plan on doing so!

[@ThisIsMyRoad]

The history part is fascinating and well done. The balance and actual civ design is far from being ideal to say the least, though considering how poorly the current developers of AOE II design civs these days I'm not sure it really matters.

[@robbylava]

Thanks very much Shaun! Do you have any suggestions for how to tweak the balance while keeping what I was going for? Really appreciate you taking the time to watch!

[@sanethoughtspreader]

This is a very interesting idea. I'm not a historian but I am Welsh. I'm impressed you can pronounce Llywellyn, but oddly not Dyfed or Mawr hehe, I'm from Dyfed, which is now called Ceredigion. But don't try saying that ;) Very interesting ideas. I'm glad KZbin's algorithm showed me your video. I really would love them to split the Celts into three civilisation.

[@robbylava]

Wow, thank you so much for saying so Morgan! I'm delighted the algorithm sent you my way! I always try to get pronunciation right in all the videos I do, and I'm glad I got at least a couple down pat! Can you give me any tips on how to correctly pronounce some of the ones I screwed up? Including that hard one you mentioned, now I'm curious! Really appreciate you taking the time to watch and share your thoughts.

[@RowanDrake47]

@@robbylava Have a go at Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. And yes, that's the name of a real village. No, I won't try to pronounce it - I'm on the wrong side of the border to ever attempt such a herculean feat! I'd be tempted to make that one of the AI player names though, just for fun.

[@bjarkekiaer]

There is a KZbin video of a weather presenter pronouncing it (Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch), in case you want to hear it.

[@sanethoughtspreader]

@@robbylava Hehe sure. Mawr almost rhymes with the English word "hour" or "power". "F"s in Welsh are pronounced as in the English words "of" (when singular, so like an English V) and "off" (when double, so like an English F). So Dyfed is dove-Ed (as in the bird -dove and the shortened version of Edward - Ed). OK, I should probably stop before I get carried away.

[@sanethoughtspreader]

@@bjarkekiaer Ooooo he's my friend! Owain Wyn Evans!

[@bjarkekiaer]

Part 2 of the British Isles! The Scots started it all off strong, so the Welsh have something to live up to. Aaand... they did! Lots of interesting stuff. 1) Concealed archers: Longbowmen firing from the ther side of the map and you can't even find them? I guess I'm continuing my evil streak from the Scots, 'cause this is WICKED! Wait... they also get Thumb Ring. Longbowmen with Thumb Ring? This civ is probably going to be the fan favourite! 2) Projectile accuracy: -Bullet- Arrow time! Sounds quirky, just like the Age up bonus. Quirky... but nice! Oh, does it still apply when the opponent has Thumb Ring? 3) Armor speed: Concealed sniper longbowmen that also run circles around your base? Yup, definitely fan favourite. 4) Team bonus: Free stuff! Who doesn't like free stuff? 4) Uchelwyr: Kamayuk-I-mean-Tysyatsky Lite! Very cool unit. I like the idea of a beefy light cavalry unit, and the retinue ability sounds fun. It might be diffcult to implement as is, but something similar could be done. 5) Elm Bowman: The idea of an early new version of a unit (as opposed to something like Winged Hussars) is really creative! If it proves too strong, something like moving Fletching to Castle Age might help balance it out. This would also fit with the theme of them playing catch-up - and you're already doing wonky stuff with the tech tree (you naughty!), so might as well go all out. 6) Teulu: Hmmm... Hmmm... So you're basically sitting there with my Danes build and slowly checking off all the parts, aren't you? ... I'm flattered! (And how many things are even left at this point?) 7) Maerdrefi: TC goes up! Losing Hand Cart is rough (so little carry capacity!), but they do get very fast villagers to compensate. And with insta-TCs, it might open up for a potential cheese strategy with sending in vills to drop TCs in the enemy base. And the cheaper archers makes it easier to crew them as well. Quite the quirky but fun civ you have come with. Well done! edit: Formatting. -Also, you mentioned that their Longbowman range is not as dominant as the current Britons' - but the numbers you gave them are the same as a Briton Longbowman+Yeomen, so it's just as good (or better, since you don't have to research a tech). Is that intended?- Never mind, I'm an idiot. I forgot about the Briton civ bonus...

[@robbylava]

What a wonderful review as always Bjarke , thank you so much for taking the time my friend! To answer the one clarification you asked for, yes the accuracy bonus would apply even if the opponent had thumb ring! And you know, I completely forgot about that element of your Danes build. Should have known that you would have come to a special ranged attack first! Maybe I'm being subliminally influenced. Thanks as always for watching and commenting! Really delighted that you think this build works well.

[@TheDorkSaber]

Diolch am wneud y video hwn, thank you for making this video. I hope we get added to aoe4 atleast, I would love a Welsh campaign

[@robbylava]

My pleasure brother! I really hope you enjoyed it.

[@thomasfplm]

39:33 In real life, you can dodge a sword attack. In AoE2 melee attacks always hit, but I don't see why an effect like this couldn't exist.

[@epicseadragon1692]

Nice! Side note on "history section" (altough it's not what your videos deal with proper): you don't usually give names of "heroes", but god I would love to finally have Percival as a hero in the scenario editor! I know it's not history proper, but it would also still be cool to have that and a "Round table knights - Quest for the Holy Grail" campaign, though again, I hear it may not be the focus of your channel. As far as the build goes, it's a good idea to have the longbow as a unique unit, but it begs the question: what would be the britons unique unit then? Well, since you plan to present an updated and subdivided build of the Britons you don't have to answer anything :) For the rest there are so many interesting concepts: * At first sight the "non-reveal" bonus of archers seemed "meh" kinda sorta, but combined with longbows, I've realized it's actually *reaaaaally* strong! Certainly very interesting out of the box idea that I like! * The team bonus is also a good idea, and I'm of the opinion that perhaps the devs should take a page out of your book for Cumans... * The unique unit is also very interesting in concept, and looks really strong, but I see you have thought well how to balance it out! I do have to mention I am a bit skeptical about "skipping" an armor upgrade but making the next one(s) available. While you could convince me to get behind the idea, I don't know if the devs would ever actually do that... But it's a small objection on an overall great build with a lot of good ideas!

[@robbylava]

Thank you so much for saying so Sea Dragon! It's always great to hear from you, and I'm particularly pleased that you liked so many of the funky ideas I had for this particular design! Totally agree it's a long shot that the devs will actually take many of them, but it would be sick if they used a similar model for the Cumans. A good question about the English unique unit! I actually have quite a few ideas for this that I would hopefully get to when I finally do a build for them. Billman, dismounted knights, foresters, and mounted long bowman are all good options, but since I haven't devoted research to the civilization yet there might be more that I can't think of off the top of my head!

[@thomasfplm]

38:36 Considering the Chinese get extra villagers from the start of the game, i don't think the bonus is necessarily that broken.

[@alexmanzer5756]

Nice build but I think you made the eco a little too weak on this build. The eco bonus is akin to the Bengalis, it might even be a bit weaker given that you still have to pay the food cost of the villagers whereas the Bengalis do not. As for the archers, I think that if the elm bowman is going to have 5 base range, it's going to need to have 3 base attack so skirmishers can still be an effective counter. This may have already been your purpose but I don't see the Elm Bowman in the build doc. Romans ay prove to be a difficult matchup. A frame delay bonus is very interesting as it would greatly benefit players with high micro skills.

[@robbylava]

Thanks a lot Alex, I really appreciate the feedback man! I do see what you mean about the Eco maybe being too weak, but here's how I came to the numbers I did: the time it takes you to advance to Feudal Age is normally enough for you to train about five villagers. Yes they'll have cost, but five is a much bigger number than the Bengalis two, and Castle age will be even more substantial than that! And since most people have to float a lot of resources during Age up anyways because they don't have much to spend it on in Dark Age I feel like that extra cost won't end up being much of a burden. Because of this really substantial gain, I felt like their early Eco would be so disgusting that I absolutely needed to nerf it in some way. On the other hand, I think your suggestion to reduce Bowman damage could be necessary but I really want to try to avoid it if possible! Yes, the Welsh will have a disgusting Archer Rush, but that's absolutely the way it should be! And plus, I'm hoping their prolonged feudal age advance alongside their Bowman taking longer to train will make it a lot harder to hit the timings necessary to make that Rush do as much damage as some other civilizations might be able to manage. That all being said, I could be 100% off base with both of these ideas. If testing indicated it was too much sauce I would be more than happy to turn them down! I just really am reluctant to reduce boom and damage since I feel like it would make the unit pretty dramatically weaker, but a different Nerf like increased training time or something I'd be very open for. Thank you so much for taking the time to leave your thoughts. I hope my logic seems coherent to you!

[@zoboe92]

Do people ever tell you that you look a bit like the notable Welsh actor Christian Bale?

[@robbylava]

That's a new one! Maybe a distant cousin hehehe

[@mrbelgrade6631]

Nice

[@mrbelgrade6631]

At first all the unique units and bonuses plus the unique techs seem super OP. I feel like they’d be able to win almost every game in feudal age if you time the archer rush right. But the tech tree is really weak so it balances out a bit. I think you’re onto something good here just need some refining.

[@mrbelgrade6631]

But making the civ this integrated with their history is awesome I applaud the hard work and thought that went into it.

[@robbylava]

Thanks man! Yeah, this was definitely a build of many extremes. I really like playing with removing key technologies and restricting a civilizations conventional tech tree while expanding it in other unconventional ways. I'm hoping that in this particular case the blend would even out to something that's relatively balanced and coherent, but actual practical testing could very easily prove me wrong!

[@mrbelgrade6631]

@@robbylava I think overall it seems balanced out like I said above. The majority of average players would probably agree. I’m just imagining a few select pro players with a vill lead and those nasty unique archers in feudal age wreaking havoc. I haven’t watched your other builds yet but plan to soon. I definitely like taking the big overarching civs (britons, China, India) and breaking them down a bit to more specific civs like they recently did with India.

[@robbylava]

@@mrbelgrade6631 Could definitely see you being right about that. If it ever ended up feeling too oppressive in practice (should that ever come to pass) I'd certainly be willing to adjust stuff. Really glad you found the channel man! I look forward to hearing your thoughts on some of the other builds! Splitting up umbrella civilizations is definitely a hobby of mine, but this is the first time I'm tackling a bunch from the same breakup all in a row.

[@ivanstrydom8417]

Good build sir. I would just replace the ''TCs are built instantly'' to ''TCs are built 80% faster''.

[@robbylava]

Yeah, I could see instantaneous being a little too much for most people. But I think 80% would be a little too low, so I'll probably go for a bigger bonus than that.

[@josephszakovits7330]

I like the ideas here but I think you undermine the archer strength too much. Making the Feudal advancement slower makes an archer rush very hard and also makes them vulnerable to early rushes themselves. The Elm Bowmen seems designed for Feudal aggression but it seems to hard to use with such a long delay. Timings are critical.

[@robbylava]

That's not a bad point at all. I was quite worried about them being far too oppressive without the delay, but I may well have over done it. Hopefully at some point a viewer decides to put together a simulation in the map editor so I can test it out!

[@josephszakovits7330]

@@robbylava I think there does need to be some form of mitigation. But when it directly contradicts the supposed strength of the civ it kind of makes for a civ without a clear game plan. I love the idea of being able to keep doing TC stuff during the age advancement and drawing out the advance time to balance it. It might be better with a civ that isn’t also designed for Feudal aggression though.

[@robbylava]

Can you think of a way to possibly tweak this civilization so that it can keep both ideas while not hamstringing itself as much? If so I'd love to hear your input

[@josephszakovits7330]

@@robbylava Hmm. Maybe make the delay a bit less extreme and make the Elm Archer more expensive? I could see that giving a narrow window where you might be able to pull off 2 archery ranges with a heavy commitment to gold with your extra villagers. A risky sort of all-in strategy. They’ll see it coming, so you need the armor upgrade so you’re just a bit faster than the skirmishers they’ll make to prep for you. I dunno- I’m not really an expert player. I love the theory behind all of this but I’m not actually that good at the game.

[@yuuumtheepic4118]

I feel like the second bonus, -40% attack speed but does not reveal attackers, is arguebly more downside than upside. It has a very cool feel to it, I really don't know of any other bonus that tries to capture the fantasy of stealthy ranger archers quite as well. In fuedal age, yes it can be really scary and annoying to get hit by archers using 'stealth' for lack of a better term, but once you hit castle age and people start throwing down large swathes of walls, town patrol and city watch get researched and armies get more centralized i feel like it's very quickly going to feel like a detriment since it's an almost 50% cut to your archers DPS with little upside. I think my best way to solve this would be to make it more centered around an ambush strategy. Something like 'when an archer shoots at a dude that doesn't have vision of them, the attack deals 33% bonus damage'. Could still be very powerful early as it lets you snipe villages out of position early and would probably feel pretty cool I think. It also has some uses late game as it can let you burst down units like paladins or champions since they have such a short vision range. I also think the civ is a bit one-note. While I understand that the Welsh has a warfare history very much focused around archery, I think it feels too one-note from a game-play perspective. It's too easily countered by civs with good skirmishers, and it doesnt' allow for gameplans aside from 'spam archers at the archery range'. This is honestly a problem I think the Brittons also have, but that's an aside. I think you could do a lot by expanding their last bonus to working for infantry and cavalry as well. You might have to scale down the move speed bonus to 2.5% to compensate, but either way I think it's still very flavourful to the civilization while adding some more nuance to their gameplay. Slightly faster light cavalry for raiding, slightly faster harbs to chase away cavalry, I think it'd just be an overall good bonus to a civ that looks kinda underpowered right now. Aside from that, I think it all sounds cool and interesting! Very whacky and out there as most of your civs end up being ;)

[@robbylava]

Hey, thank you so much for the feedback! I'm really glad you enjoyed the build! So to clarify, the bonus you're referring to doesn't actually reduce Archer rate of fire, rather it reduces the delay between when you right click and when a projectile is fired, making them work a lot more like old mangudai did! In terms of the civilization feeling one note, I'm definitely inclined to agree with you. A comment or suggested that I extend the movement speed bonus to spearmint specifically, and that I actually really like as it allows me to not need to change the numbers and let that unit be a little bit more of a focus. An earlier draft of mine did actually have that bonus apply to all units as well, so our minds are clearly on the same wavelength here!

[@yuuumtheepic4118]

@@robbylava Ah, my apologies for misunderstanding the archer bonus haha. It's 1 Am where I live, so I'll blame it on that. That makes the bonus a lot better then.

[@robbylava]

@@yuuumtheepic4118 No need to apologize at all mate! I get how it goes.

[@DreameverCompany]

But then, what is the UU of the english 😱

[@robbylava]

You'll see! I have a number of good options that I think would be much more appropriate replacements.

[@Grevnor]

First!

[@Grevnor]

Welsh atrategy: all archers, all the time. It's great to have the UU be a non-archer support unit, really makes for an interesting dynamic. Plus the Blacksmith upgrade shenanigans is a really nice touch.

[@robbylava]

Much obliged Johannes! It's always a delight to hear that you enjoyed a build.

[@konradpyszniak976]

Oh man, where to start. First of all their later age up means you loose early water. Enemy has 1 of 2 firegalleys faster. He will kill your fishingships and have numerical adavantage. And now remember we have civs like khmer, mongols and georgians who Goes up 17 pop and Goes scout. 2. Extra range, speed and damage for a basic archer is OP. Remeber if basic cross upgraded deals 7 and you will do 8 it means you have 33% damage as 4 damage is blocked by armor of a knight so increase is from 3 to 4 damage. Speed and range allow you to choose your fights. Britons are strong only thanks to range. In aoe4 longbow has longer range but it is slower so it makes more sense. 3. Spawning units will look wierd and unnatural. 4. Insta build tc blocks basic tool to rush enemy vils. You just buils tc and saves all vils. Cool idea of civ but balance should be way better.