The West-march - Rohan's Traitorous Province

[@coreyander286]

In early outlines found in _History of Middle-earth VIII, The War of the Ring,_ during the parley between Aragorn and the Orcs, a Westfolder is present, and Aragorn "rebukes" him for siding with Orcs. When an Orc violates the parley by firing an arrow at Aragorn, the Westfolder slays the Orc. Also from an early draft in _War of the Ring:_ “But among them are many that cry in the Dunland tongue”, said Aragorn; “and that is a speech of men, and once accounted good to hear.” “True words you speak”, said Gamling […]. “I know that tongue. It is ancient, and once was spoken in many valleys of the Mark. But now it is used in deadly hate.”

[@jamesmarriner9675]

I've always found the dunlendings vs rohan conflict fascinating after playing lord of the rings online and third age total war divide and conquer. They seem very neglected as a people and it sucks that they got manipulated by saruman and messed up by the rohirrim so badly. Goes to show that classically "good guy" factions can still make mistakes and evil choices. Cool vid dude.

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

If I remember correctly, there is a mention of "the Captain of Westfold" in Tolkien's manuscripts about the battle of Helm's Deep. That captain who fought on Saruman's side parleyed with Aragorn and offered Rohirrim to surrender and to "give Westmarch back to us". The captain also killed an orc who shoot an arrow at Aragorn during the parley. I think it is reasonable to assume that this captain was a ruler of Westmarch (and not of Westfold, of course), who sided with Saruman and wanted to gain independence for his land. It also seems that he was not a completely evil person. It is sad that he doesn't appear in the final version of the book and that we do not know what happened to him after the war.

[@nathanboosman]

That’s fascinating

[@Rellana1]

If he survived the war,he was put to work repairing the damage that they created,then was allowed to return to his home,after swearing a oath not to Cross the Fords of Isen under arms,nor to march against Rohan.

[@phoule76]

where was Darth Gandalf when the Westfold was explained?

[@SvengelskaBlondie]

He was at Saruman's restaurant cause he heard that "Meat's back on the menu"

[@RiwenX]

I remember reading the books when I was in my early teens, the obscurity of the West-march made me curious as to what had been going on there.

[@TheCalimehtar]

Great video. Totally agree with your final thoughts. Saruman definitely took advantage of the poor relations between the two peoples and made them even worse.

[@tiltskillet7085]

Great stuff. The video about West-march I never knew I needed, but it turns out I did. I've always had a soft spot for the Dunlendings and for Freca though. It's easy for me to read the little we know about them and imagine how what's written in the Red Book might have done them somewhat dirty, and wonder how the stories might have differed if a Dunnish bard had told them. Just like history in the real world makes me wonder about stories that are only hinted at through the writings of their adversaries.

[@Ethan-cz8xq]

I wonder if the Dunlandings were based on the Welsh. Roman was based on the Anglo-Saxons + horses, and in real life when the Anglo-Saxons migrated to what is now England, they displaced/absorbed the previous Celtic inhabitants, the Britons. What followed was centuries of conflict between the Anglo-Saxons and their English descendants in the eastern flatlands and the Britons and their Welsh and Cornish descendants in the western hills. This is incredibly similar to the story of Dunland and Rohan.

[@TealWolf26]

Entirely probable, given who the author is.

[@henrikg1388]

You're not the first one to notice that.

[@ErnestLordGoring]

Yes, I think Tolkien even says they were somewhat Celtic. And then makes a quip about how “Celtic” is used as a catch-all phrase for whatever wasn’t Anglo Saxon, Roman, or Norse

[@thomasalvarez6456]

Likely, given the Rohirrham are basically the saxons and have blonde hair. Whereas the dunlandings have darker hair

[@bluebird3281]

The Anglo Saxons called the Western Welsh borderlands the Marches.

[@istari0]

Another interesting point is that back in the second half of the 2nd Age, the Dunlendings suffered enormously at the hands of the Númenóreans as the latter turned into conquerors and tyrants in the centuries following the War of the Elves and Sauron.

[@Saymyfavoritemeal]

7:02 & 9:10 Are you keeping a prisoner behind locked doors? Was there something funky going on outside when you were recording this? Are those sounds just parts of the background music samples you use? The second one sounds like a car to me, but the first one is definitely a scream. Are you breeding Uruk-Hai in your basement?

[@voiceofreason2674]

Ive always drawn a lot of parallels between LOTR and especially Aragorn with the King Arthur Matter. The Dunlendings-Rohirrim relation are so superficially similar to the Celtic Britons and Anglo Saxons. Which gives me consternation until you realize in Tolkiens time King Arthur wasnt so specifically associated with the Welsh or any Celtic group. In fact Tolkien made a point of saying he didnt appreciate the Ossun tales, but the Arthurian parallels are strong

[@Insider887]

Great job as always, you are really good att making the most out of the lore and presenting things in a really interesting way. If possible could you make a video about Dior and the Ruin of Doriath.

[@Callisto_Arcas]

Thank you for continuing to find interesting content for us! I know it isn't always easy to find something you haven't covered yet. And, this is a perfect one in light of the anime releasing this December. I have a much better grasp of what started Freca on his path.

[@darkjudge8786]

Everyone likes to pretend we'd be descended from Dunedain if Middle Earth was true. Reality is we'd all be Dunlendings.

[@granducatoditoscana5112]

Maybe Romans are mixed southrons-gondorians

[@jonathonfrazier6622]

Only if your heritage is Celtic. If Germanic then it would be a descent from Rohan/Gondor and Rohan adjacent populations such as the wood-men of Mirkwood and those of Dale.

[@Insider887]

Well it all depends on chance, some are lucky others not so much.

[@sambojinbojin-sam6550]

I'm half-Finnish. So somewhere a little west and north of the ruins of Angmar? A lot of stuff must have happened between the beginning of the Fourth Age and now.

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

@@sambojinbojin-sam6550 Aren't Finns descendants of some Avari Elves? :) I am joking, of course, but Quenya is based upon Finnish to some extent and there was a Finnish tribe called Kvens.

[@hermanmelville3368]

Amazing content

[@untitled568]

If Rohan let Dunlendings in the Westfold, let them keep some level of autonomy and kept in diplomatic relations with them, they might have been allies.. First kings of Rohan really screwed up

[@untitled568]

Gondorians also made peace and later merged with Middle Men of Anfalas and White Mountains, many of which actually served Sauron in the second age..

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

As far as I know, Dunlendings didn't try to make alliance with Rohan either. There probably were raids from both sides, since both peoples were quite warlike.

[@goransekulic3671]

Hey darth, from the technical perspective, what are these noises that crop up from time to time in this video? Like in 09:11 for example. There is another one earlier. Just wanted to notify you of these noises, in case you weren't aware. Great video otherwise.

[@samuelleask1132]

Great video man

[@jeffagain7516]

Thanks once again good Sir! Excellent presentation once more. Whilst reading through HoME Vol-12, Peoples of Middle-Earth last couple of days, something stood out to me. Have you noticed that as far as what we would consider proper Surnames today, In Tolkien's Legendarium, only The Hobbits commonly make use of such name style? Bilbo Baggins, Merry Brandybuck, Peregrin Took, Sam Gamgee, etc... Though some, like Dwarves, would use the suffix "Son-Of" such as Gimli, Son-Of Gloin, or titles, such as the "Tar- " and "Ar- " used by the Numenorean Kings, for the most part, inherited surnames were rarely used. The odd part to me, wasn't the fact the others didn't but that the Hobbits DID use inherited last names. Any thoughts on this? Cheers. :)

[@dubya85]

ahh yee nice one ey mate

[@WMfin]

Pains a bit how much more I prefer the art work used here than what War of the Rohirrim trailer looked like.

[@DamonNomad82]

The only "West-march" I was familiar with by that name was a region of the Shire that was added after the events of the "Lord of the Rings", part of the Tower Hills.

[@blueshit199]

it's kind of odd that the part of the Gap of *Rohan* north of river Isen is not considered a part of westmarch or Rohan at large, but at the same time I get it from a worldbuilding standpoint that you'd want Dunland to have territorial claim to Isengard and a clear shot at the Westfold

[@uriustosh]

The Dunlendings are the indigenous people of Rohan, who were pushed out by the horse porkers. They are kept in abject poverty and see the Rohirrm colonizers living far better than them. They are kept penned up in tiny fraction of their land in something akin to a reservation. When they dare try to fight for a better life, they are described as evil.

[@celtofcanaanesurix2245]

the Dunlendings were only native to the Westfold, the rest of Rohan was essentially empty do to the great plague and Easterling invasions that genocided any native northmen and dunedain

[@thomasalvarez6456]

The Dunlendings are evil for siding with Orcs and Sauron. That is evil

[@jamesgatehouse3318]

​@@thomasalvarez6456evil, or mislead and misguided?

[@thomasalvarez6456]

@jamesgatehouse3318 Well at this point, everyone knows the crimes of Sauron and Orcs. I wouldn't say misled, it's an evil act but of course it doesn't make them all evil. Just doing that act of joining them is evil.

[@imperialinquisition6006]

Maybe? They're quite clearly based on the early medieval Welsh, so I'm not entirely sure why you've gone for a bit more of a modern parallel, but its an interesting idea. I do think the arrival of the Rohirrim is a bit more complex than just displacing them, as the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons was in the 5/6th centuries. I believe that the area was fairly unpopulated due to plague and war within the Gondorian Empire, similar to Britain at that time following the retreat of the Roman Empire, and the lands of Rohan were granted to the Rohirrim by the Gondorians, for helping them fight, similar to early Germanic migration into Europe often being as a result of Germanic mercenaries being taken on by the Roman Empire, or it's successors. So the whole reservation parallel isn't really relevant here, it's more a rerun of 6th century British history. And yeah joining Sauron to massacre the people of Rohan alongside orcs is pretty evil.

[@_anneli_]

I have always terribly neglected the history of Rohan in general 🙈 So thank you very much!

[@Funkopotomis]

Are they traitors or perhaps are they victims of bad map by Steward Cirion?

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

Go Dunlanders

[@feb4252]

The Dunland Dunkers, the best underdog football team

[@jackolantern147]

I have a question. How exactly could Saurons ring being unmade kill him? He had a physical body and his soul was immortal, so how would the rings destruction damage him beyond repair? Did the fall of Barad'dur kill his physical form?

[@stoatnam450]

Sauron wasn't killed when the ring was unmade, his power however was destroyed. Without his power Sauron was left a formless spirit of malice blowing in the wind.

[@untitled568]

He has a video about that very topic if you wish to check that out..

[@ianoYG]

Would love to see this region in lotro!

[@feb4252]

So the Westmarch was gifted to the Rohhirim without any say from the local, culturally distinct population. Over the centuries the Rohhirim would attempt to colonize and rule over it. In this context, I would describe the province as rebellious, not traitorous. The local peoples never declared any allegiance to some "Rohan" entity, the lordship was simply thrust upon them by a greater power that wasn't that interested in the province in the first place.

[@titanscerw]

Westmarch, ah yes, the Sudetenland of Ridermark :) +][+

[@imperialinquisition6006]

It's quite clearly based on early medieval Wales in my opinion.

[@outcastoutcastovich7245]

Make a video please explaining why Gollum after separating with his precious for so many years didn't died from the age

[@3Kis4K]

Right on time for War of the Rohirrim marketing period?

[@SirBoggins]

3:14 so Welshmen and Cornishmen 😂😂

[@General12th]

Hi Darth! There's definitely a lot of idolizing the past in the Legendarium. Perhaps too much.

[@andrewperez28]

There is no "g" in Anduin

[@wedgeantillies66]

Sounds like Rohan would have been better off, surrendering the west march to dunland as a patch of land, indefensible and not of any great strategic, when it came to Rohan maintaining border based upon natural and more defensible borders. Or eventually coming to some accord and creating aq protectorate over west march.

[@paulsarnik8506]

Hey! If Frecca was born in the 28th Century, how come he didn't have flying cars? HuH???😮. 🤓😎✌🏼

[@ohmygordd9426]

first woohoo

[@ilari90]

Noooooooo!!!! congrats!