The West's first Introduction to Japan

[@warchildsilver]

Shogun is my favourite novel - but i don't have any of the religious qualms. It's definitely not an uplifting story but i love how it pushes back against holding characters in too high a praise. There's a nuance to it all. As for both series, i love them for different reasons. In a way they compliment each other and give two perspectives on the story. One is from the point of view of a European who is enamoured with what they see, and the other is darker and more in depth with the politics of Japan.

[@bushidoblues9302]

Yes and I like how it's worth watching both series and you get something out of it.

[@monfisch]

Yes! It’s an oddly Zen way to seeing the characters. Neither good or bad, they just are. Maybe that’s why they are also appealing because we are good and bad and neither of the two.

[@monfisch]

I mentioned the new series to my parents. They watched the original TV series with great dedication every week. I think that’s where I got my childhood attraction to Richard Chamberlain. I’m now looking through my parents’ house for my dad’s copy of Shogun from the 1980’s. One has to remember, when I was a child, Japan was still very foreign. Around the same time as the original Shogun series, there was a lot of Japanese hate because of American versus Japanese cars. So, the 80’s series was so exotic. I went to Japan for the first time in 2004. No tourists abound. One college student, hiking on his own with the rail pass, joined us for a walk in the park because he got a little lost. Now I’m packed in like a sardine.

[@fredjones554]

Reading the book again now. I just can't stop. It's awesome. In the book the internal dialogue of each character is expressed and thus the nature of every man has three hearts is made clear. I think your point that Shogun brought more Japanese culture to more people than all the scholars is the main gift of this book.

[@bushidoblues9302]

Yes this was one of the most important books in the past century for that reason.

[@trollishmc2920]

Read it back in the 90s. Listening to it now on audio. The answer is yes. 100%

[@bushidoblues9302]

I wish I read it back then.

[@cocoacrispy7802]

It's a common misconception that Europeans of this period smelled bad because they did not bathe regularly. However, people who have re-enacted the way Elizabethans lived report being able to go for long periods without bathing and still smelling agreeable. If I recall correctly, the practice involved rubbing the skin all over daily with a linen cloth which was then laundered, the cloth absorbing the oils and other secretions as well as soil.

[@bushidoblues9302]

Thanks for the info! I should have researched it. Yeah, that makes more sense. There's no way a civilized nation would endure such bad odors I once had plumbers come in to fix something, and I kid you not, their body odor was so bad it took a week to get that smell out.

[@tylertheleper8468]

"At the end of the day, there's no point to it at all." Tagline of the century. 😆 Jokes aside, I loved your take on this story, especially for how it treats Christianity. Excellent work.

[@bushidoblues9302]

Haha thank you! I appreciate that feedback!

[@clmk28]

I did not know JC was a prisoner of war.

[@bushidoblues9302]

Yes during ww2. It's what he based his first novel on.

[@bushidoblues9302]

He's a really interesting guy.

[@akechijubeimitsuhide]

I read it long ago, as a child, and didn't really like it (despite liking Tai-Pan before). I somehow feel the same way about Ieyasu as I do about Augustus.

[@bushidoblues9302]

I'm thinking about reading Tai-Pan. Is it similar to shogun?

[@akechijubeimitsuhide]

@@bushidoblues9302 It takes place in Hongkong in the 1840s. A lot of intrigue and cultural clashes. Pretty interesting protagonist but his concubine kinda steals the show.

[@danshepard6851]

FF16 background music ftw! Definitely interested in checking this out!

[@bushidoblues9302]

Good catch! Hideaway! FF16 has such an underrated soundtrack. It might be one of the best in the series! Seriously!

[@jun8569]

I don’t know if there’s an English version, but I highly recommend Tokugawa Ieyasu by Yamaoka Sohachi. This Shogun book doesn’t really interest me at all..

[@bushidoblues9302]

You can't beat actual history!

[@trollishmc2920]

Your issues with the religious aspects... I'm assuming you've seen The Silence?

[@bushidoblues9302]

Yeah, and I didn't enjoy it, haha. Well made film though.

[@trollishmc2920]

@@bushidoblues9302 Things did not go well for Catholics once Tokugawa consolidated power. I almost see The Silence as a sequel of sorts to Shogun, because we can see what happened to Portuguese and Spanish ambitions when it came to Japan in the Edo period. Also the continuation of the Blackthorne/Adams story with the Dutch becoming the sole Westerners allowed to trade with Japan

[@bushidoblues9302]

@trollishmc2920 yeah and I had that movie in mind the whole time before watching Shogun.

[@bushidoblues9302]

The difference was the samurai crucifiying them weren't depicted as the good guys haha. But it definitely changes how one would view Tokugawa/Toranaga.

[@nont18411]

Not really invested in Shogun that much, to be honest, because the real life story of Tokugawa Ieyasu (and his two predecessors) is a lot more rich, tragic, chaotic and exciting than a fictional story from an Englishman’s perspective. Prime example, Ieyasu is a lot more evil but also more relatable and likable than Toranaga. Toranaga is on a god mode, completely detached from humanity from the beginning to the end.

[@bushidoblues9302]

I'm watching Sekigahara (2017) and I'm rooting more for Ishida to be honest. Ieyasu is borderline insane, very different from Toranaga indeed.

[@nont18411]

@@bushidoblues9302 Toranaga (especially Sanada’s version) is too stoic to a fault. He seems very emotionless most of the time. Meanwhile, Ieyasu (at least what he’s portrayed in many versions in Japan) is such a dynamic character. One moment he’s an irredeemable monster. The next one you just can’t help but sorry for him. Then suddenly he will turn crazy and comical. And with the limited narrative of Shogun, many people will only see Toranaga as a scheming usurper who stole the throne from the rightful heir for the sake of power and power alone. But if we actually look at the real history, that “rightful heir” was actually a son of Hideyoshi, who usurped the throne from the Oda clan after the death of Nobunaga, who also usurped the throne from the Ashikaga shogun. It’s the never ending cycle of usurpation (Gekokujo). Ieyasu actually put a stop to it and finally pacified a country after centuries of civil war. He might committed a lot more war crimes and was more evil than Toranaga but his plan was more nuanced and altruistic than just “I wanna be a shogun for power”.

[@bushidoblues9302]

@nont18411 and in the end he brought over 250 years of peace and that's always a good thing.

[@nont18411]

@@bushidoblues9302 Yeah, his government wasn’t perfect. After all, it had a massive update in 1868 with the Meiji restoration but during the 1600s, it was the most viable option to prevent further bloodshed. Millions of people were prevented from death thanks to him. Also, I find it comical with the quote “I fed you shit” from Blackthorne in the finale, considering the implications that the showrunners tried to tell us compared to the actual history. Do you understand what I meant?

[@bushidoblues9302]

@@nont18411 does Blackthorne say that in the 1980 version? Lol. I'm guessing it relates to William Adams.

[@DionysianLovecraftian]

I find the whole thing very overrated and I like other TV series better. I like a handful of Taiga dramas better than this despite technically having lower production value but at least those are made by Japanese people about their own history.

[@nont18411]

True and it can’t help that I’m not a fan of how British culture was portrayed to be more civilized than Japan in Shogun (for example, how Mariko was treated by Buntaro vs how she was treated by Blackthorne) which is fair because the novel was written by an Englishman himself and he had an extremely negative experience with Japan and how great historical figures like Honda Masanobu (Yabushige), Hosokawa Tadaoki (Buntaro) and Otani Yoshitsugu (Ohno) were deliberately character assassinated by Clavell.

[@DionysianLovecraftian]

@@nont18411 I don't remember exactly how Ohno/Otani was represented too badly because we see and hear little of him in the actual book. He is mostly just represented as a minor character who's a leper and a christian. That's it but correct me if I'm wrong. But I can totally see what you mean with the other two. I don't know in which ways Yabu even resembles the actual Honda Masanobu. They have very little in common.

[@nont18411]

@@DionysianLovecraftian He was represented as a coward leper, unlike the real Otani who’s very brave. Meanwhile, Masanobu only “betrayed” Ieyasu one time and it was during Ieyasu’s early days when Ieyasu fought against Ikko Ikki, and with good reasons. Masanobu considered Ieyasu to be a spoiled brat who didn’t care about people at that time so he joined the Ikko Ikki cause. But after that, he became one of the most loyal retainers of Ieyasu. He even saved Ieyasu’s life from Akechi’s army during Honnoji. In my opinion, the historical figure who’s the closest to Yabushige is Ishikawa Kazumasa. He’s the one who actually betrayed Ieyasu when the things got tough. After Ieyasu (intentionally) lost the Komaki-Nagakute and first siege of Ueda, Kazumasa fled Ieyasu’s camp and snitched on Ieyasu’s operation to Hideyoshi right away. It was so bad that Ieyasu had to change the whole system within his clan because Kazumasa knew too much.

[@DionysianLovecraftian]

@@nont18411 I see.